New Sonic Forces Gameplay teased on twitch.tv (link and screenhots here)

[Blue Blood]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

You assume quote 1 and quote 3 weren't and still aren't happening simultaneously. Hell, Classic Sonic fills the same niche as the Werehog but nobody gave a fuck because "he's so cute and reminds me of the old games!" It's such a technical compromise that it's actually sorta-kinda smart.

My point is that SEGA fails to understand the understand why their games get praised or criticised beyond the most superficial reasons. They're continually just doing what the loudest voices say, without actually trying to make better games for it. They just don't get it.

[Dr. Detective]

It's not so much that Forces isn't trying anything new. It's more that it's nostalgia heavy elements are standing out more due to how confused the inclusion is. That and all the "new" stuff is either something NO ONE asked for or implemented in a way that makes a lot of the classic stuff feel out of place and redundant.

For instance, the character creator thing is new but it's introduction just made it stand out even more how unnecessary and strange Classic Sonic's presence was. You'd think it'd just be a game where you could create your character and have him fight alongside Sonic and his friends to defeat Eggman. But it's that plus Classic Sonic's here and... why? How does that fit? Why is it there? 

There are some elements of inclusion here that I do actually like. For instance, despite the recycling of my future wife, the Egg Dragoon, not being an ideal thing to see on a creative level, the idea behind taking the modern robot and putting it in Green Hill Zone is an idea I actually really wanted Generations to take advantage of. Where instead of just revisiting old levels, we'd see some bleed over from the time-line where modern stuff would mix in with the classic stuff a bit to show the distortion of the timeline just screwing things up and throwing people from different games into areas from other games. 

I don't ever want to see Black Doom again but the idea of him being lost in Sweet Mountain and not knowing what to do makes me laugh for example.

That seems to be what this game is doing and while I appreciate the idea it is softened by the fact that we already saw all these assets in Generations done with a similar idea of exploring the nostalgic past in mind. 

At the very least, they could have used different old levels and old bosses. Like motherfucking Hang Castle and the Egg Golem. 

However, at the end of the day, I still find myself wishing it were just a story about Sonic and friends taking back their world from Eggman after he succeeded in taking it over. 

Like Blackbeard at Marineford, he declared the world was his and succeeded. Now that would have been a cool as fuck initiation for the resistance to come together.

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

My point is that SEGA fails to understand the understand why their games get praised or criticised beyond the most superficial reasons. They're continually just doing what the loudest voices say, without actually trying to make better games for it.

I'm not denying that's true. I'm just wondering why people are acting brand new about this when this has been their mode of thinking for years. Various groups have demanded, been observed, and been directly polled about different ideas and Sonic Team has implemented them in ways that almost always come with a catch due to their own design sensibilities. But when it comes to classic-fueled nostalgia the conversation magically gets muddled about who exactly is to blame and people putting everything off on Sonic Team, and to me, it's a double standard. The same shit that led to ShtH is roughly the same shit that led to Forces, so either we should all be aware that we're kinda complicit in this, or we should all be willing to work together better in communicating exactly what we want, or perhaps both.

[Scar]

4 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

My point is that SEGA fails to understand the understand why their games get praised or criticised beyond the most superficial reasons. They're continually just doing what the loudest voices say, without actually trying to make better games for it. They just don't get it.

This exactly. I don't know what the fuck is going on management-wise, but nobody knows what to do, so they're just doing stuff. They hear buzzwords and gravitate towards those without understanding the context of those buzzwords and wonder why people are underwhelmed.

Sighhhh.

I want to believe Sonic Team want to do more than this ridiculous "member when Sonic was good" shit, I really do. But the management has been so fucking poor.

[Blue Blood]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

I'm not denying that's true. I'm just wondering why people are acting brand new about this when this has been their mode of thinking for years. Various groups have demanded, been observed, and been directly polled about different ideas and Sonic Team has implemented them in ways that almost always come with a catch due to their own design abilities. But when it comes to classic-fueled nostalgia the conversation magically gets muddled about who exactly is to blame, and to me, it's either always been both the fans and Sonic Team, or it's always been Sonic Team.

A fair number of people have always been scathing of ill-conceived attempts to cash in on nostalgia. Generations is the only one to truly get a free pass because it was both the best main Sonic game to come about in years and as an anniversary celebration the nostalgia grabbing had a place. Not to mention it aimed to give a bit of nostalgia to fans of every part of Sonic's history. 

[Salamander]

17 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

On another, more positive note, I liked what they hinted at with Classic Sonic's bosses, where it begins with one, simpler boss, and then that transitions into one of the franchise's later bosses in a new perspective, such as fighting the Egg Dragoon in a full Classic gameplay style. In my opinion, I actually love the idea of bringing back old bosses but changing them in a way that makes them new again, such as when we had to fight the Egg Dragoon in Generations as a speed-styled boss, as opposed to the straight-up brawl of Unleashed's version.

I agree.  I think there's nothing wrong with the odd bit of nostalgia or the odd past reference.  Consider the way Sonic Adventure included Ice Cap and Sky Chase, for instance.  If it's just the odd zone or boss and not the whole caboodle, and if you're doing something new rather than just recreating the past, then I think that this helps to draw the overall world of Sonic together, to increase that sense of place.

Strangely, in some respects this seems to be the very opposite of what Sonic Team wants to do.  All these nostalgic references - and yet none of them have anything to do with Modern Sonic's history any more?  Bizarre.  ...Of course, if the Custom Character was originally intended to be Boom Sonic, then suddenly the idea of Sonics from other dimensions showing up starts to make sense.

14 minutes ago, Spooky Mulder said:

Also, and I know this isn't a problem exclusive to Sonic since I see it in Mario and other 2.5D platformers as well, but does anyone else hate when characters jump through apparently solid 3D platforms? At least in proper 2D games it looked like they were either jumping in front of or behind the platforms. Watching the buzzsaw on the Eggmobile clip through the platforms really bugged me.

I agree, but I'm not sure what anyone could do about it.  Losing a mechanic in the transition from 2D to 3D for purely visual reasons would be disappointing, and indeed 3D arguably needs the ability to jump through platforms like this more than 2D does, because the camera can make it harder to physically tell where your character is if they're underneath a platform and the camera is above it.  Maybe throw in some kind of super-quick digging effect as your character plops up on top of a seemingly solid platform, if it's that big a bother?

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Blue Blood said:

A fair number of people have always been scathing of ill-conceived attempts to cash in on nostalgia. Generations is the only one to truly get a free pass because it was both the best main Sonic game to come about in years and as an anniversary celebration the nostalgia grabbing had a place. Not to mention it aimed to give a bit of nostalgia to fans of every part of Sonic's history. 

Generations doesn't even get a free pass anymore because outside of the context of Sonic's birthday and the novelty of "Two Sanics!", and especially with Forces drawing even more comparisons, the cracks of the design are beginning to show. But the funny thing is a lot of these were expressed during a time when it was less kosher to criticize the game. Even in the throes of Sonic's birthday, people were hoping for far more to be done contextually with the recurring locations and bosses than what was done, which led to some pretty inane rebuttals and whatnot, not to mention the fact that it was apparent from video feed that Classic Sonic wasn't as good as his Genesis incarnation.

[BubbleButt TV]

Okay they played the initial CG trailer again during the Pre-show and I noticed a few things:

Compare this with the original version SEGA showed last year:

 

[Kuzu]

13 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not denying that's true. I'm just wondering why people are acting brand new about this when this has been their mode of thinking for years. Various groups have demanded, been observed, and been directly polled about different ideas and Sonic Team has implemented them in ways that almost always come with a catch due to their own design sensibilities. But when it comes to classic-fueled nostalgia the conversation magically gets muddled about who exactly is to blame and people putting everything off on Sonic Team, and to me, it's a double standard. The same shit that led to ShtH is roughly the same shit that led to Forces, so either we should all be aware that we're kinda complicit in this, or we should all be willing to work together better in communicating exactly what we want, or perhaps both.

That would require for people to admit their standards and praise for the recent games has been misguided.

If you think Forces is the greatest thing ever, why would you need to be clear on anything? To those people, Forces is everything they've wanted.

[GucciBurr]

Game should have just been Modern Sonic and the custom character, with both playing the same imo

[SpongicX]

I honestly don't get why people are trashing Sonic Forces for nostalic throwback, while hypocritically sucking up to Mania for doing the exact same thing. I'm shaming both games for relying too much on nostalgic throwbacks, but I still hope both end up well.

If you ask me, Sonic Mania is the one being a little more shameful with it's recycled throwbacks. This is the game that flat out confirmed most of the levels would be returning levels, while Sonic Forces only confirmed one returning level so far., but promised a new story with new levels.  Sonic Mania isn't much different from what the Genesis games have done, yet people are willing to defend it, just because it's a pixelated game or something?

I really find the bias against Forces to be a bit unfair, when Mania is just as guilty of recycling content. It's one thing to say you like the classic gameplay better, but to try and act like one is doing better than the other, when both are just as guilty for the same flaws, now that's just unecessary.

[Dr. Detective]

There still exists context for nostalgia that I would find acceptable. 

For example, getting to see the Mystic Ruins again as well as Tails' Workshop would be nice. Not for nothing, it is the place where Tails lives. Showing it again wouldn't stir the ire of too many people. It'd be welcomed a lot more since it stands the chance of actually being nostalgic due to not being thrown in our faces year after year.

It may actually be one of the few things you could get away with showing more often in that sense. 

But obviously, nostalgia stops being nostalgia when you can no longer feel nostalgic for something. And you can't really feel nostalgia for something you see revitalized and reintroduced all the goddamn time.

 

[Detective Kaito]

Well, here's what I think:

• The first thing to note is that Sonic's friends are gonna be annoying. They didn't know what to do with them so they just put them at the top right of the screen to shout exposition. Okay, whatever.
• The random black boxes everywhere look like crap compared to HUDs we have in previous Sonic games, but I hope this it's still WIP.
• The fact that they're not showing us the entire level is kind of disappointing. I mean, with Modern Sonic we got just a tiny bit of extra level design revealed and then Aaron cock-blocked us and exited the stage. lmao
• It's so fucking pathetic how Classic Sonic fights two rehashed Eggman bosses in a row, they're really afraid to do anything new at this point.
• The Avatar looks fine so far, at least we got to see that another Wispon which looked cool.
• Classic Sonic being a Sonic from another dimension is a very good idea. Instead of explaining why Classic and Modern are the same age and why they look different, just making them alternate versions like Classic Megaman and X is a perfectly acceptable idea.

Overall, nothing mind-blowing, but I may have set my expectations too high since we didn't get that much new stuff.

[Kuzu]

Just now, SpongicX said:

I honestly don't get why people are trashing Sonic Forces for nostalic throwback, while hypocritically sucking up to Mania for doing the exact same thing. I'm shaming both games for relying too much on nostalgic throwbacks, but I still hope both end up well.

If you ask me, Sonic Mania is the one being a little more shameful with it's recycled throwbacks. This is the game that flat out confirmed most of the levels would be returning levels, while Sonic Forces only confirmed one returning level so far., but promised a new story with new levels.  Sonic Mania isn't much different from what the Genesis games have done, yet people are willing to defend it, just because it's a pixelated game or something?

I really find the bias against Forces to be a bit unfair, when Mania is just as guilty of recycling content. It's one thing to say you like the classic gameplay better, but to try and act like one is doing better than the other, when both are just as guilty for the same flaws, now that's just unecessary.

I'm not going to act like there's not an inherent bias towards Mania and against Forces.

However, you have to actually look at how both games are presenting themselves from a neutral POV. 

Can you honestly tell me that Mania and Forces aren't marketed completely differently in what they're trying to do?

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

16 minutes ago, BubbleButt TV said:

 

Compare this with the original version SEGA showed last year:

 

Why all the red? Is sonic in hell?

With all these ideas together, I wonder how you'll transition from level to level.

[ZinogreVolt]

20 minutes ago, BubbleButt TV said:

Okay they played the initial CG trailer again during the Pre-show and I noticed a few things:

Compare this with the original version SEGA showed last year:

 

Wow, Sonic got one hell of a sun tan.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Well, this game is...weird. I mean, it looks cool, like it's actually trying to be something now, but I still get the impression that there's a big disconnect from where classic and modern's gameplay styles are, and that's only gonna be fixed when we see another level and determine which style is the outlier.

I love the way new Green Hill's looking. Throwing in crazy-ass giant robots and the Dragoon and those plants sucking the life out of everything is finally selling the "deforestation" stuff that the level first presented (other than "SAAAAAAAND!', I mean). Avatar looks like it might be cool, but I haven't seen enough of the other powers to determine if it'll really be much different than the other Sonics.

Park Avenue looks great too, but there's not much to say beyond that, since we've only seen the first chunk of it still.

As for the criticisms discussed in this thread, I agree with the UI looking bad, and I sincerely hope that you can turn off/turn down the other voices, but beyond the usual "fucking forces reee" comments, I'd say there's not much for me to hate here.

Also, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that cinematic isn't supposed to have the contrast turned up so high. 

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, SpongicX said:

I honestly don't get why people are trashing Sonic Forces for nostalic throwback, while hypocritically sucking up to Mania for doing the exact same thing. I'm shaming both games for relying too much on nostalgic throwbacks, but I still hope both end up well.

While I don't care for Mania for this exact reason and realize the bias is definitely obvious, you also have to understand that Mania exists because one set of people have been fighting for a true artistic and mechanical successor to Sonic 3&K for years, while another set of people have been fighting for the 3D games to at least regain an identity divorced from this kind of blatant classic pandering, and that understanding these differences in ideals for two different groups of people with two different standards being catered to with two different games doesn't make one hypocritical when reacting differently to classic nostalgia.

There's also the fact that Mania seems to understand game design better and thus manages to contextualize its nostalgia as a natural part of its universe, while Forces is a mishmash of different ideas with far less cohesion with one another or in the context of its universe, meaning one can't help but feel Forces comes off more as made-by-committee than Mania does.

[Detective Kaito]

Hey guys, remember when Sonic's friends kept talking in Sonic Generation's final boss? Well, how about an entire game like that? You don't want it? Well, we're doing it anyway.

[Balding Spider]

4 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Hey guys, remember when Sonic's friends kept talking in Sonic Generation's final boss? Well, how about an entire game like that? You don't want it? Well, we're doing it anyway.

You mean like past acclaimed games? Like Heroes and Shadow? Oh boy... *squee*

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

Hey guys, remember when Sonic's friends kept talking in Sonic Generation's final boss? Well, how about an entire game like that? You don't want it? Well, we're doing it anyway.

I'm anticipating it so far actually. I've said this before but the clips we were just shown of Sonic's friends so far didn't have any repetitious dialogue nor was anything super cringey said by any of them. If they keep that up, I'll be delighted. I want them to utilize that to showcase what they're actually doing in the background rather than just reaffirm what we're already doing as Sonic of course. But even then, if they don't, what we just got was miles better than them just SHOUTING (not saying but SHOUTING) that you need to watch out for a homing shot over and over again.

Unless what they showed was the only snippet of them not doing that, then I'm already convinced it won't be like the end of Generations. Which is certainly a good thing.

It's not like I find the very idea of the characters talking to be the thing that's annoying. It's just that when the dialogue is "BOUNCE PAD!" "RINGS!" "BOUNCE PAD!" of course it's gonna annoy you. They just need to write actual dialogue for them. 

Plus, I'm one of the people who was never bothered by it in Heroes or Shadow. I can understand a bit why some people would be but most of what I remember was explaining how stuff works (which is easy for me to ignore if I heard it already) or friendly banter (which I always find charming so long as it's not overwhelmingly try hard).

 

[Indigo Rush]

15 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

While I don't care for Mania for this exact reason and realize the bias is definitely obvious, you also have to understand that Mania exists because one set of people have been fighting for a true artistic and mechanical successor to Sonic 3&K for years, while another set of people have been fighting for the 3D games to at least regain an identity divorced from this kind of blatant classic pandering, and that understanding these differences in ideals for two different groups of people with two different standards being catered to with two different games doesn't make one hypocritical when reacting differently to classic nostalgia.

There's also the fact that Mania seems to understand game design better and thus manages to contextualize its nostalgia as a natural part of its universe, while Forces is a mishmash of different ideas with far less cohesion with one another or in the context of its universe, meaning one can't help but feel Forces comes off more as made-by-committee than Mania does.

I need this post to be pinned somewhere at the entrance hall to the internet. 

[MegasonicZX]

The more I see of this game the more it makes me question why the heck classic sonic is here. For 2d gameplay? Nope, both modern and avatar mcavatar pants are already doing it. For nostalgia's sake? Why can't they just do this with the levels instead of making a separate character to exemplify it? Like, I can't understand why he's here other than some forced obligation that only sonic team thinks they need to keep.

[Kuzu]

For the record, games like Forces are going to be continuously made as long ST misinterpret criticism and feedback.

So nothing short of making our own ideal 3D game, a la most 2D fan game developers which is what led to Mania's existence, is likely going to convince them on what we actually want.

[Tara]

I honestly grow a little bored with the posts and potshots that basically amount to "I don't get why Sonic fans are lampooning upon a game for executing a concept poorly, while praising a game for executing the same thing properly."  It's like... you have your preference in fast food places that sell the same junk, right?  You have preferences for different style of clothes, even if they're the same article of clothing, right?  You have preferences for things that deliver a similar concept, but with notably different results, right?  That's how anything works.