New Sonic Forces Gameplay teased on twitch.tv (link and screenhots here)

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

I don't trust Sonic Team to make good decisions. Every time that it seems like they might have made a good choice, it eventually transpires that both their reasoning and execution were balls. And even if the reasoning is actually good, which remains to be seen in for cases like Shadow Forces, the execution can still very easily undo and undermine that. 

Once bitten, twice shy. Expecting the worst from Sonic Team isn't unjustified. 

I'm in a position that's very hard to explain. Because I don't trust them and I do expect the worst.

But at the same time, there are things I do and don't expect them to do on both the positive and negative spectrum when it comes to these games. There's things I expect them to do and things I know they won't do. When it comes to the characters, I expect them to screw up story details and continuity issues regarding them. However, their personalities are usually sprung from a well of following along with what's been established before. At least to a small degree.

And I'm not talking about how Tails was written to be a complete asshole in Sonic Lost World. The writing there was terrible but the consensus they wanted was for Tails to still be a good person who was just going through a bad time. And that came across as the thing they wanted to do but it's execution was poor.

So basically what I'm saying is, I expect the execution to be misguided. But not necessarily the intention. If that makes any sense. 

I feel like I know what they're trying to do with Forces, and some of it is actually stuff I'm happy to see be done again (at this point I'm actually convinced I'll like it more than Generations, which I did like despite how much I complain about it), but at the same time I can't exactly fault anyone for taking the super hard stance that EVERYTHING they do is to be put up to scrutiny. You're not going to see me say you're outright wrong for believing that they'd suddenly make Shadow evil with no explanation. I'm just saying that based on how they've handled him in the past, it's more likely that he isn't and that this is just a cheap marketing tactic to make you think he is. And it's working on a lot of people so... I guess it worked? Sort of?

[Sega DogTagz]

^Agree'd

 

except for this...

1 minute ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 You're not going to see me say you're outright wrong for believing that they'd suddenly make Shadow evil with no explanation.

 

I'm not into sugar coating. If you think no explanation is coming then you're a lost cause in my book. If your instead simply cowering in fear of said potential explanation, then you are merely conditioned to do so and more power to you. I'm not gonna join you in that particular doomsday bunker, but I recognize why you feel the need to seek out its shelter.

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

DogTagz, I'd say you have an unbelievable amount of faith in Sonic Teams writing capabilities. It's kind of a known fact their plotting and characterization has been less than stellar ever since those elements became more prominent.

I know that, as Sonic fans, we automatically assume the worse at any given opportunity, but it's not like this mindset developed over night.

Keep in mind Shadows recent appearances have been nothing more than gracious boss fights. He's in Generations, but no actual context is in that fight outside of it taking place in a similar setting to SA2. And Boom speaks for itself.

Yea, ST didn't write the latter, but they did supervise it. You'd think someone would have pointed how poorly implemented he was, but nope.

That's what everyone is worried about, that there's just gonna be no explanation and the characters are barely going to react to it, because that's been the standard for the games for the past three. 

So I really don't get how you can call us unreasonable for expecting the worst, when Sonic Team have done nothing to prove that they could actually make this work in a convincing way.

[pppp]

I also fail to understand why we should have have trust in them. Faith needs to be earned, and Sonic Team's current writing team has yet to prove they can pull something great. I firmly believe Ni no Kuni II is gonna be a great JRPG with a touching story because Level-5 have proven themselves plenty of times on that front. I could be wrong of course, but the fact that the pattern of quality titles is there means I actually have proof that allows me to have trust that has been earned.

Sonic Team hasn't had a meaningful story in their games since Shiro Maekawa(Black Knight) left the series, and the writers that took over got worse with every game, so why exactly should I have faith that Forces will be well written?

Give me one actual tangible piece of proof of their abilities aside from "C'mon, stop being such a pessimist", and then we'll see.

The reason the pessimism is even around is because we have proof of their inability rather than the opposite.

[Faseeh]

Ah man I had no clue the Black Knight writer left! I was about to have some faith due to him/her in the writing department. 

[FriendBot]

I don't think we've ever known who wrote the story for the Storybook series, people say it's Maekawa but he only has a credit for Secret Rings and it wasn't even for story.

Also as someone who enjoyed Lost World and Fire & Ice's story (The Boom writers had no involvement in writing that story, Alan Denton said so on Twitter, check up on that F&I thread to see what's up famsquad), I can see myself enjoying Forces' story considering it seems that the dialogue so far is much more fitting for the game's tone and doesn't really try to force jokes all the time. Of course, still skeptical on how Pontac/Graff are going to handle this many elements in the story with returning villains, Classic being from another dimension, what is up with Infinite and of course the main plot of fighting back Eggman's army. If Flynn really is contributing to the story in some way, that is very reassuring.

[pppp]

39 minutes ago, FriendBot said:

(The Boom writers had no involvement in writing that story, Alan Denton said so on Twitter, check up on that F&I thread to see what's up famsquad)

Then what's this?:

 

[FriendBot]

15 minutes ago, pppp said:

Then what's this?:

 

Maybe if you actually looked at the topic instead, you would get your answer.

 

[Dannymax440]

Probably better to just hope for the best, assume the worst. But I really hope that they put a lot more effort into telling a compelling, "non swiss cheese", story unlike Generations 

[Sega DogTagz]

5 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

DogTagz, I'd say you have an unbelievable amount of faith in Sonic Teams writing capabilities. It's kind of a known fact their plotting and characterization has been less than stellar ever since those elements became more prominent.

I never said I had any faith in Sonic Team from a writing capabilities standpoint.

What I said was, that I do trust them to give me some semblance of a reason as to why their hero character all of a sudden is batting for the other team. Through all their failed attempts at characterization and weak stories Sonic Team has never given me a reason to doubt that they would somehow decide to make Shadow a villain again with no explanation as to why he would make that switch. Botching presentation or flow of a story doesn't somehow make them incapable of keeping track of who is good and who is bad.

I expect Sonic Team to - at some point in Forces - explain to the player why Shadow is a bad guy. I feel like its more of a leap of faith to assume that they wouldn't provide the player that courtesy. That's it. That's all I'm saying here. Not that Sonic Team is gonna pull some masterstroke of penmanship out of their ears. Just that they will at least provide the bare minimum to justify the click-bait. I don't think that's asking for a lot and I don't think that is me putting some absorbent amount of faith in the dev team either.

 

Quote

I know that, as Sonic fans, we automatically assume the worse at any given opportunity, but it's not like this mindset developed over night.

Keep in mind Shadows recent appearances have been nothing more than gracious boss fights. He's in Generations, but no actual context is in that fight outside of it taking place in a similar setting to SA2.

What more context did you actually need though? You fought the guy in the Dreamcast Era, he was placed in the stage representing SA2 and his boss fight took place on the space colony arc. The intro to the fight even re-made the iconic moon cross jump. The entire game circled around pulling events and people from Sonic's past.

That fight took place at the climax of SA2. What more did you need?

 

Quote

And Boom speaks for itself.

Yea, ST didn't write the latter, but they did supervise it. You'd think someone would have pointed how poorly implemented he was, but nope.

And again I'll point out that Boom is its own canon and the people behind it were free to make their own choices on how they wanted to align Shadow. Its only canon to itself and pretty much any interpretation of Shadow was fair game.

Yes, the implementation was terrible in RoL, but that is beyond the scope of what I am getting at.

 

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I never said I had any faith in Sonic Team from a writing capabilities standpoint.

What I said was, that I do trust them to give me some semblance of a reason as to why their hero character all of a sudden is batting for the other team. Through all their failed attempts at characterization, weak stories and plot holes, Sonic Team has never given me a reason to doubt that they would somehow decide to make Shadow a villain again with no explanation as to why he would make that switch. Botching presentation or flow of a story doesn't somehow make them incapable of keeping track of who is good and who is bad.

I expect Sonic Team to - at some point in Forces - explain to the player why Shadow is a bad guy. I feel like its more of a leap of faith to assume that they wouldn't provide the player that courtesy. That's it. That's all I'm saying here. Not that Sonic Team is gonna pull some masterstroke of penmanship out of their ears. Just that they will at least provide the bare minimum to justify the click-bait. I don't think that's asking for a lot and I don't think that is me putting some absorbent amount of faith in the dev team either.

I'll concede to this.

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

What more context did you actually need though? You fought the guy in the Dreamcast Era, he was placed in the stage representing SA2 and his boss fight took place on the space colony arc. The intro to the fight even re-made the iconic moon cross jump. The entire game circled around pulling events and people from Sonic's past.

That fight took place at the climax of SA2. What more did you need?

None of the context surrounding the original boss fight is present though; is Sonic fighting Shadow to get to the Eclipse Cannon to stop it or is this just a friendly spar between him and the Modern Shadow? None of that is explained and the boss fight is hardly referenced at all before or after the fact. For comparison's sake, we see the Time Eater (Aka, Modern Eggman) kidnap Classic Eggman after the Death Egg Robot boss fight, which sets up them teaming together for the final boss fight. 

All I wanted was just a little context to the events taking place and the game didn't even provide that. On that note, I don't expect Forces to deliver much on that front on account of it's numerous similarities to Generations already.

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

And again I'll point out that Boom is its own canon and the people behind it were free to make their own choices on how they wanted to align Shadow. Its only canon to itself and pretty much any interpretation of Shadow was fair game.

Yes, the implementation was terrible in RoL, but that is beyond the scope of what I am getting at.

Boom being it's own canon is moot since the characters are clearly based on their mainstream selves; Shadow already knows who Sonic is and they already have an established dynamic. And like with Generations, there's no context. Shadow just hates Sonic and friendship.......because reasons I guess, but we gotta have a boss fight so logic and story cohesion don't really matter much.

[Sega DogTagz]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

For comparison's sake, we see the Time Eater (Aka, Modern Eggman) kidnap Classic Eggman after the Death Egg Robot boss fight, which sets up them teaming together for the final boss fight. 

Well lets use that example.

Knowing what we know (Hindsight being 20/20) The Time Eater abducted Classic Eggman because it was being controlled/piloted by Modern Eggman and he needed to save himself so he could live to fight another day. 

Choosing to do the same for the Shadow of the SA2 period would serve as a challenge for Sonic, however that Shadow wasn't exactly loyal to Eggman either. He spent the entity of SA2 using the doctor to achieve his own goals of arming the Eclipse Cannon. Plucking him from the rubble following his defeat at the hands of Sonic would only serve to hurt the doctor by introducing another rouge in the mix.

eh, really getting into the weeds here.

I guess I can best sum it up like this. Generations does have a plothole when you start to pick at how Modern Shadow was introduced into the story, but that plothole shouldn't be confused with how he was utilized in his boss battle. That was a segment removed from time (SA2) and his convictions during that period were explained in the game that fight originated from. Gens simply choose not to re-tread that ground. I didn't need an explanation as to why I was fighting Shadow for the same reason as for why I didn't need one to justify the fight with Perfect Chaos. It was understood through its presentation what those fights were supposed to represent - namely the same conflicts in SA1 and SA2.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Boom being it's own canon is moot since the characters are clearly based on their mainstream selves; Shadow already knows who Sonic is and they already have an established dynamic. And like with Generations, there's no context. Shadow just hates Sonic and friendship.......because reasons I guess, but we gotta have a boss fight so logic and story cohesion don't really matter much.

How is being its own Canon moot? That's like saying Archie Sonic has to be a 1 to 1 match to Sega Sonic because he's derived from the mainstream character. We all understand that he isn't because he doesn't have to be. That's the whole point of establishing a separate canon. So you can have your own take of the characters that fits the medium you are attempting to utilize.

Boom Shadow doesn't have to fall in line with Mainstream Shadow. He's not obligated to be anything more than a black hedgehog, who rivals Sonic and is kind of a dick. There are going to be differences in each of the characters when you make the jump to a separate canon, and they required no more reason to justify Shadows alignment as they did Knuckles growth spurt. You don't get context because that's simply the status quo that was settled on for this particular version of the canon. Its done on every shift in canon. They establish the status quo at the onset, no matter how slight or substantial it may be from the mainstream source.

 

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

On 6/18/2017 at 1:21 PM, Sega DogTagz said:

Expecting bad isn't expecting nothing though. There were people here who were legit saying "OH I GUESS SHADOW IS A BAD GUY TODAY - GUESS WE HAVE TO GO WITH THAT"

That's mind numbing levels of stupid to me.

Holy shit, thank you.You can say you don't like Shadow being a villain, but when the developers literally say there will be an explanation in the game, don't try and deny it. I laid out a post explaining the possible motivations for Shadow to turn heel, and when the game is out, I'm going to quote that fucking post in my signature. 

[Shadowlax]

25 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Holy shit, thank you.You can say you don't like Shadow being a villain, but when the developers literally say there will be an explanation in the game, don't try and deny it. I laid out a post explaining the possible motivations for Shadow to turn heel, and when the game is out, I'm going to quote that fucking post in my signature. 

No one is denying anything. 

No one wants to trust the story from a developer who notoriously does shit stories and as of recently completely disregards characters. 

No one has to trust sega will do this well, or at all in the sense of failing so badly their story beats accomplish nothing, and sega has yet to do anything to combat this. If you want to have faith in a corporation of people who only care about your money and you giving it to them, and not you, and keeps making the same mistake.  You do you, but I don't got time for that. 

[Shadowlax]

8 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

I guess I can best sum it up like this. Generations does have a plothole when you start to pick at how Modern Shadow was introduced into the story, but that plothole shouldn't be confused with how he was utilized in his boss battle. That was a segment removed from time (SA2) and his convictions during that period were explained in the game that fight originated from. Gens simply choose not to re-tread that ground. I didn't need an explanation as to why I was fighting Shadow for the same reason as for why I didn't need one to justify the fight with Perfect Chaos. It was understood through its presentation what those fights were supposed to represent - namely the same conflicts in SA1 and SA2.

That sounds like shitty non existent story telling. But I'm not into it. And i'm not suggesting every story element needs to be told to your face, I enjoy Dark Souls and Fnaf and those things are the recent kinds of convoluted lore told through shit you don't exactly get in your face in the game. But if you aren't going to tell that part of the story purposely there needs to be some type of indication that leads to that point when you do discover, or the reader , that part the story. Sonic generations doesn't have that, it doesn't have much of a story at all. It has a , a lot of stuff unfinished and half justifications for mining nostalgia we happened upon to when asked because the game doesn't have any indication of a narrative to try and explain anything. 

Sonic isn't dark souls, sonic isn't fnaf. You shouldn't have to go on forums and ask people to understand basic things as to why as boss fight is happening, this should be explained to the audience in their faces. There was very little if any context to this, because the story literally dissolves into nothing and no explanation after modern sonic meets classic sonic. And that isn't hyperbole , it turns into nothing. Its one of my criticisms of that game, and because the story was mostly nothing there is a lot of lack of context as to what happens. 

 

[Gabz Girl]

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Yeah. That's why I don't trust Sonic Team anymore, ever since Sonic Lost World initially gave me optimistic vibes with its plot synopsis and then disappointed me when the game eventually came out. Like literally, my optimism was crushed so bad by that game I just don't trust them anymore to give us a good, solid story or characterisation. 

Believe me, I don't want to be pessimistic but nothing about Sonic Forces makes me feel like going out and buying it Day One for £50 or whatever ridiculous price tag it will have (hopefully it'll be budget price like Ratchet & Clank '16 was). Sure I'll check it out eventually, but that will be months after release when the game is cheaper.

[Sega DogTagz]

13 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

That sounds like shitty non existent story telling. But I'm not into it. And i'm not suggesting every story element needs to be told to your face, I enjoy Dark Souls and Fnaf and those things are the recent kinds of convoluted lore told through shit you don't exactly get in your face in the game. But if you aren't going to tell that part of the story purposely there needs to be some type of indication that leads to that point when you do discover, or the reader , that part the story. Sonic generations doesn't have that, it doesn't have much of a story at all. It has a , a lot of stuff unfinished and half justifications for mining nostalgia we happened upon to when asked because the game doesn't have any indication of a narrative to try and explain anything.

For the majority of what Gens was supposed to be, I'd agree with that sentiment. It took a very lax approach to storytelling that is well documented around these parts.

But I don't think you can make that claim for this specific circumstance. The story did devote time early on to explaining what the time eater was doing. That he was pulling places through time, and gathering them in the white limbo. The characters made comments early on supporting that claim, stating that the locals felt familiar. That same logic can and should be applied to the boss battles. Perfect Chaos, Death Egg Robo, Metal Sonic, the locations these fights took place in should have been the only indicator you would need to draw the necessary conclusion. The story, while it probably should have, didn't exactly need to hold your hand to explain the exact convictions of each fight because its spot in history does that for you. If your wondering why Sonic is throwing down against Perfect Chaos, the answer Generations gives you is "SA1" - which is a fitting enough solution to any inquiry. If your asking why you are fighting with Metal, Generations says, Stardust Speedway bad future - "SonicCD". Boom. If Shadow is the question, SA2 is the answer.

Should Gens have explained that better to the player? Of course, but its not like what it did was serve up the Da'vinchi Code and leave gamers scrambling for the forums for answers. It left all the necessary thematic cues and context on the table to allow someone to figure out, easily enough, that the Shadow fight was supposed to happen in SA2.

This particular instance isn't non-existent storytelling. They left plenty of details for you to piece that together for yourself. How Shadow found his way to join up with the rest of the cast in the post game.... now THAT is some non-existent storytelling.

[Nepenthe]

As a very straightforward adventure where the goal is to stop Eggman, Generations doesn't leave much room for questions. It spills the pot of potential all over the floor and shrugs it off, but the plotting itself isn't really confusing. However, if you care about canon or if you're a time travel fan, yeah, it's a hot fucking mess. SA2(?) Shadow's presence isn't the only issue, although he's a big one (and it would be kinda cool in Forces if these characters were their Generations incarnations) but there's also the issue of how Classic Sonic's adventures affected future events. Either we've got two timelines (which would also very nicely justify the whole "alternate dimension" angle), or- again- we've got two Shadows, two Eggmans, and a Silver running around in the present.....

Honestly, in talking about it, I will forgive a lot of storytelling dumbfuckery if Forces exists solely to explain away this shit and gets crazy with it Goku Black arc-style.

[Ratcicle King]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

As a very straightforward adventure where the goal is to stop Eggman, Generations doesn't leave much room for questions. It spills the pot of potential all over the floor and shrugs it off, but the plotting itself isn't really confusing. However, if you care about canon or if you're a time travel fan, yeah, it's a hot fucking mess. SA2(?) Shadow's presence isn't the only issue, although he's a big one (and it would be kinda cool in Forces if these characters were their Generations incarnations) but there's also the issue of how Classic Sonic's adventures affected future events. Either we've got two timelines (which would also very nicely justify the whole "alternate dimension" angle), or- again- we've got two Shadows, two Eggmans, and a Silver running around in the present.....

Honestly, in talking about it, I will forgive a lot of storytelling dumbfuckery if Forces exists solely to explain away this shit and gets crazy with it Goku Black arc-style.

As far as I'm aware, the Shadow in Generations is the present one, while his attitude (Basically acting like Vegeta) is indeed odd, he wasn't present at the party, and once the plot is over, he is there, being sent back with all other characters to the present, so either he was present Shadow, or we now have a time displaced Shadow running around. Oh yeah and he does cheer for Sonic at the final battle, something SA2 Shadow would only do by the Final Hazard fight.

[Nepenthe]

If he's present Shadow, then there exists the plothole of why in the world he was insistent on revisiting the whole fight in SA2 to begin with. It's never explained. It's honestly easier to take him as another "thing" that got displaced out of time no different from the levels themselves

[Celestia]

I kinda just assumed the Shadow we fought was SA2!Shadow and the one who showed up at the end was present day Shadow (I like to think he got snatched too but was immune to the whole freezing thing because fuck it, why does Sonic get to be the only one?) and waved it off. I wouldn't inherently be against some other explanation, I just lean towards the simplest interpretation with that whole issue.

Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they'll explain things like Shadow apparently switching sides in this game. Now, will the explanations be good or at least serviceable? Maybe, maybe not. But I'll be surprised if they don't address it at all.

[Ratcicle King]

11 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If he's present Shadow, then there exists the plothole of why in the world he was insistent on revisiting the whole fight in SA2 to begin with. It's never explained. It's honestly easier to take him as another "thing" that got displaced out of time no different from the levels themselves

I just chalked his attitude up to him looking at Final Chase and it reigniting his rivalry towards Sonic, heck, considering the plot of the game says them running through the worlds restores them, having Sonic racing him would actually help fixing that area, so IMO it was just him, in his own rival way going ''well since you gotta run through there again, might as well make it a race, right?''

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

I kinda just assumed the Shadow we fought was SA2!Shadow and the one who showed up at the end was present day Shadow and waved it off. I wouldn't inherently be against some other explanation, I just lean towards the simplest interpretation with that whole issue.

Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they'll explain things like Shadow apparently switching sides in this game. Now, will the explanations be good or at least serviceable? Maybe, maybe not. But I'll be surprised if they don't address it at all.

I mean, I know trusting them is hard, but in interviews, they've been making a big deal of Shadow's betrayal and how it has a big reason, plus Sonic's first level is him chasing Shadow, so at least it's been HEAVILY implied that Shadow's role in the story will be central.

[Celestia]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying: I'm confident there's going to be a reason for it. The only question is if it'll be handled well.

Personally I'm predicting that he's gonna turn out to be a mole but he's not going to let Sonic in on it. For some reason I get the impression they'll go for a relatively mundane explanation like that instead of stuff like mind control or alternate timelines, which I'd be fine with but I think this being the Shadow we know and he's doing it of his own free will would make for more interesting interactions.

[Wraith]

27 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I kinda just assumed the Shadow we fought was SA2!Shadow and the one who showed up at the end was present day Shadow (I like to think he got snatched too but was immune to the whole freezing thing because fuck it, why does Sonic get to be the only one?) and waved it off. I wouldn't inherently be against some other explanation, I just lean towards the simplest interpretation with that whole issue.

 

Silver is implied to have met Sonic and know he's a good guy, though. He makes a comment about you being some kind of "fake sonic". So he would be a Silver from the right time period, just being stupid.

[Celestia]

Eh, Silver's a weird case because he's already a character from another time. There's no "present" Silver to rip out of time; you could argue that just because the Silver we encounter in Generations has met Sonic before, that doesn't mean Sonic has met him (that's time travel for ya).

Though admittedly his post-'06 appearances do have a vague continuity of sorts, I think we're supposed to consider Rivals or w/e as his proper first encounter with Sonic? But that's a spinoff and SEGA/Sonic Team's stance on those being canon is a bit all over the place.