New Sonic Forces Gameplay teased on twitch.tv (link and screenhots here)

[Sega DogTagz]

16 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Personally I'm predicting that he's gonna turn out to be a mole but he's not going to let Sonic in on it.

The problem with that is Eggman would have to be mighty dense to trust Shadow enough to let him anywhere near his central operation. He's seen Shadow's evolution first hand, and while he may be willing to give Shadow a chance to return to the dark side, he'd keep him at arms length at all times.  Werehog's arms length even. How effective of a mole could he possibly be?

I do have my own theories about whats going down here, and most of them have to do with Infinity abilities. However if we are looking for the simplest, most straightforward answer as to why Shadow is a bad guy, I think the omission of Rouge and Omega is quite telling. He could be doing this to keep them safe.

[Ratcicle King]

15 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Eh, Silver's a weird case because he's already a character from another time. There's no "present" Silver to rip out of time; you could argue that just because the Silver we encounter in Generations has met Sonic before, that doesn't mean Sonic has met him (that's time travel for ya).

Though admittedly his post-'06 appearances do have a vague continuity of sorts, I think we're supposed to consider Rivals or w/e as his proper first encounter with Sonic? But that's a spinoff and SEGA/Sonic Team's stance on those being canon is a bit all over the place.

Pretty sure he's from Rivals, considering Sonic Team has a similar instance with the Blaze in the main games being the one from Rush, and Iizuka flat out saying the Blaze we know is from the Sol Dimension, not from the future.

[Plasme]

I find the whole outcry over Shadow's role as antagonist pretty ridiculous to be honest. The trailer was pretty clearly trying to make you think 'WTF', that was the whole point. As Izuka says, there will be a reason for Shadow's actions (and Chaos' return). It might be an awful excuse, but there will be an excuse nontheless. The idea that Sonic Team would just make Shadow evil without any reason is laughabe considering they've spent multiple games painstakingly costructing convoluted motives for Shadow's actions (he's on a mission to avenge his friend's death, oh now he's an android who wants to find out if he's a real hedgehog, oh no wait; now he's a secret GUN agent).

Yes, he was thinly put into Generations as a boss, but that's literally the only time that's ever happened in a Sonic Team title. It made perfect sense in Generations considering that title was explicitly about revisting old levels and fighting past bosses recreated in HD. There's no explanation for any of the bosses in the game because you are expected to be familiar with the franchise's history. Perhaps poor storytelling (and Generations had virtually no plot anyway), but it's no foundation for getting all conspiracy theory that Sonic Team would make Shadow evil for absolutely no reason. Boom is a different universe created by different people, so that version of Shadow has absolutely no bearing on this.

I swear this fanbase gets ridiculously paranoid about the tiniest things because of how Sonic Team have fucked up in the past. Yes, it's reasonable to worry that Shadow will have an awful motive as a villain, but the idea that Shadow will be a villain 'just because' is completely absurd and should be disregarded out of hand.

[Milo]

I am heavily inclined not to accept any argument involving the implication that a huge number of people are simply wrong and hysterical, or, ultimately, crazy or evil towards Sonic.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Plasme said:

 

I swear this fanbase gets ridiculously paranoid about the tiniest things because of how Sonic Team have fucked up in the past. Yes, it's reasonable to worry that Shadow will have an awful motive as a villain, but the idea that Shadow will be a villain 'just because' is completely absurd and should be disregarded out of hand.

I'm sorry for not having faith in a series that has consistently written terrible stories for the better part of a decade :\

[Nepenthe]

The E3 trailer and gameplay threw a lot of elements into play swiftly and suddenly that's adding unnecessary complexity to what started off as a really simple-ass base premise, thus it's raising the threshold for what is going to be reasonably satisfying writing and explanations for people who give a modicum of a damn. We have time travel, dimension-hopping, a new pantheon of villains- and three out of four of them honestly shouldn't even be here/villainous- and a second major villain who's undoubtedly the mastermind behind everything/ultimate baddie.

All this game needed to be was "Eggman finally takes over the world, and the animals band together to fix it." Add some tension through both internal conflict of the group (ex. Sonic wants to do x, Knuckles or Shadow want to do y) and external conflict caused by Eggman's shenanigans (ex. a short-term victory is cut off by a sudden or even deliberate base collapse that separates the animals; oh noes! Gotta rescue our friends!) Use Infinite/Infinity to both explain why Classic Sonic is here and serve as a third-act change in tension where he inevitably usurps Eggman and the situation becomes more dire than it was previously. That's it. That's literally all they had to do.

Now we need individual reasons for why Chaos is here, why Zavok is here without his friends, why Sega keeps insisting on fucking over Shadow, what Infinite/Infinity's deal is, and how the dimensional nonsense plays into all of this, on top of still telling a basic narrative like the above. And then we have the Avatar, and you know they're going to be central to nearly everything that goes on. People have already pointed out that the cast basically responds to them in a Sue-ish/fourth wall manner ("Only you can do this very simple task!"), so what limited story time there is is going to be dedicated to playing them up since they're playable, which means unless we get a more cut scenes or longer cut scenes on average, something's going to fall by the wayside due to the simple matter of project prioritization, and after eight years of this I'm not giving the writing the benefit of the doubt that they'll be able to cram satisfactory writing into this on all fronts.

Expecting the worst, hoping for mediocrity, will be genuinely surprised if it's not some level of a clusterfuck.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

Zavok is here without his friends

Really hoping that isn't the case in the actual game. :/

[Nepenthe]

3 minutes ago, JovahexeonJunkoJoranvexeon said:

Really hoping that isn't the case in the actual game. :/

I hope it is, because that would be eleven fucking villains in one game all vying for some satisfying level of narrative justification. In the last Sonic Team developed game, they couldn't even bother really developing six of them beyond their basic tropes.

[Diogenes]

3 hours ago, Plasme said:

I swear this fanbase gets ridiculously paranoid about the tiniest things because of how Sonic Team have fucked up in the past. Yes, it's reasonable to worry that Shadow will have an awful motive as a villain, but the idea that Shadow will be a villain 'just because' is completely absurd and should be disregarded out of hand.

I mean, that's surely how it started, right? They're making this big huge game with a bunch of villains and they made Shadow one "just because", and then they have to come up with an explanation for it afterwards.

[Wraith]

It's a shame that this premise is being blown on this game. It could be so effective if done right. Nothing needs to be said. The imagery spoke for itself. Eggman has won. Fix it.

I have no idea why they added the other shit other than things like Classic Sonic and Chaos would catch the eyes of as many casual fans as possible. A lot of things about this game feel like grasps for attention instead of things they added because they thought they would help the experience. I expect something along the lines of Lost World but with more extended cast cameos.

 

[Zippo]

Apologies for being behind, but I heard talk of Classic Sonic being from a different dimension now, retconning Generations, is that confirmed or is that an educated guess?

[Nepenthe]

21 minutes ago, Zippo said:

Apologies for being behind, but I heard talk of Classic Sonic being from a different dimension now, retconning Generations, is that confirmed or is that an educated guess?

It's taken from dialogue directly from the gameplay we've seen.

[Zippo]

Just saw! Hmm. Not sure how to feel about that. On one hand, I liked the concept of Sonic growing and changing as time goes on. On the other hand, all three Sonic designs all have their own continuity and worlds now. Sonic 4 and Generations being retconned out of existence is sure to upset a number of people, though. 

[Dr. Detective]

It just hit me that the end of the E3 trailer said "Join the Uprising" instead of "Join the Resistance" that time. 

Since it's the villain's trailer I'll assume it's asking me to join the Eggman Empire. Where the fuck do I sign up?!

[Sega DogTagz]

56 minutes ago, Zippo said:

 Sonic 4 and Generations being retconned out of existence is sure to upset a number of people, though. 

Well, to be fair, since this Sonic is from another dimension, then we know he isn't one and the same as the Classic Sonic from Generations.

We KNOW that guy was from the past, because he was caught up with the Time Eater. He even jumped through a time portal to head back home with a tagline "Enjoy your future".

So nothing actually gets retconned here. We just have another, different Classic Sonic for this one. That must of been what they meant when they said this was not Generations 2.

[The Deleter]

A while back I thought that it might be a good idea to make classic Sonic in an alternate dimension for Mania's sake, but I never expected the idea to get so much flack, tbh...

Though I was more saying "alternate dimension" as in "alternate timeline". I mean look at Rick and Morty; the entire premise is around multidimensional hopping, and yet they also visit alternate timeliness, as well. "Alternate dimension" just means a dimension either parallel or different to our own, after all, and that can apply to the infinite timeline theory, as well.

That this classic Sonic is from an alternate dimension doesn't negate the fact that Classic Sonic exists, (at least unless Sega outright retconns it... :L) it means he's from an alternate dimension/timeline now. This could be the very Classic Sonic from Generations in fact, if they wanted it to be. What with Sonic and Eggman seeing the future for themselves, do you really think that time would pan out the exact same as this universe did, ala a time loop? Nah, they interfered something fierce, to the point where Eggman finds out he always loses. No way does it stay the same with them retaining their memories and all. And thus, a new timeline is born.

The fact that this Sonic is from a different timeline is of no consequence unless they actually go through with saying "the first games never happened", (which would be just... Wow...) but on the side, it gives the series from Mania onwards a chance to grow into whatever may come from it. So I don't really see much of a problem with it, considering that, tbh. *shrug*

[Nepenthe]

The reason the idea is getting flack is because there's literally no good reason to do it. There's no reason to split the timeline or dimensional fabric of the canon up just because different artists in Sega draw Sonic differently. You want to make a cool classic game? Then just make one. Mania would not be restricted in any sense by being set in a single timeline with the rest of the games that came before.

All splitting the canon up does is unnecessarily complicate things.

[Shadowlax]

10 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

As a very straightforward adventure where the goal is to stop Eggman, Generations doesn't leave much room for questions. It spills the pot of potential all over the floor and shrugs it off, but the plotting itself isn't really confusing. However, if you care about canon or if you're a time travel fan, yeah, it's a hot fucking mess. SA2(?) Shadow's presence isn't the only issue, although he's a big one (and it would be kinda cool in Forces if these characters were their Generations incarnations) but there's also the issue of how Classic Sonic's adventures affected future events. Either we've got two timelines (which would also very nicely justify the whole "alternate dimension" angle), or- again- we've got two Shadows, two Eggmans, and a Silver running around in the present.....

Honestly, in talking about it, I will forgive a lot of storytelling dumbfuckery if Forces exists solely to explain away this shit and gets crazy with it Goku Black arc-style.

That idea would be cool if you could actually play as other characters, I feel like it will be kind of moot for sonic to beat the sonic adventure 2 version of shadow, when shadow could do that, and there could be an interesting how far i've come as a person moment. But maybe you do, and that happens, I don't know.  And it wasn't just bad guy characters, you fought previous versions of everyone. There could actually be, introspection, and self criticism, and retrospectives. This is sonic, so I guess i'm asking for too much

As for temporal disruption, it would have to be more than two timelines, because it would have to explain why specific versions of characters are here, because much like the issue with the shadow wins timeline, which is also a failure of that future comic arc, is that the shadow wins timeline is the world is blown up. That's sort of my other issue with shadow being evil, even if its the sa2 shadow he doesn't care about being apart of some super villian group, he just wanted to blow up the world, he was vengeful upset , not listening to reason. 

I hope it doesn't go in a DBZ super direction, personally. 

[The Deleter]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

The reason the idea is getting flack is because there's literally no good reason to do it. There's no reason to split the timeline or dimensional fabric of the canon up just because different artists in Sega draw Sonic differently. You want to make a cool classic game? Then just make one. Mania would not be restricted in any sense by being set in a single timeline with the rest of the games that came before.

All splitting the canon up does is unnecessarily complicate things.

Between the fact that they were already running into issues with Sonic 4 using the Modern design and Episode II mechanizing little planet but never getting resolved, I'd say there's a good reason to. Constantly trying to squash games inbetween one another is a recipe for things to go wrong consistantcy-wise, imo, and also really limits the risks that they could take with the series. You're basically asking any sequels to this direction to be in a time bubble with set rules, which... Isn't that appealing, gotta admit.

Besides the fact that it frees up the classic series to have regular entries alongside the modern one, rather than either taking precedence and either ignoring the other in Modern's case, or potentially rebooting the series in favor of its aesthetic for Classic. Basically, the whole sub-series spiel that was talked about for Boom, except for the series everyone was actually asking for: Classic Sonic.

And really, it isn't that complicated, imo. Both series have the same starting point, Generations comes and interferes with the timeline at around S3&K, and classic and modern split off into two seperate universes. It's not that hard to follow, especially compared to the alternative...

[LATER BUDDY]

[DELETED]

[Salamander]

The inconsistencies between Classic and Modern canon are trivial compared to the ones within Modern canon, and nobody seriously cares about those anyway.  Sonic is not so complicated a series that it needed a timeline split - and there is no evidence that it's a timeline split anyway; the only explanation for Classic being recognised as an alternative Sonic rather than a younger Sonic is if Classic has been flat-out retconned to having never happened, which is a far more catastrophic canonical inconsistency than anything it could possibly fix.

Add to that the fact that the plot would make enormously more sense if Classic wasn't from a parallel universe!  As has been widely-noted, the theory that Classic Sonic was simply kicked forwards in time would explain literally every mystery in the story, including Eggman having taken over the world and Chaos, Shadow, and Zavok still being under his thumb.  We wouldn't even need Infinite, just Eggman's established time-travel technology from Generations.  The elegant solution got chucked out of the window!

[The Deleter]

I don't care about Forces' narrative though :V That ship sailed a looooong time ago for me

I care about the classic series being inhibited in whatever way if Taxman decides to continue working on them, be it through mandates, newly revamped Sonic Bibles, or otherwise. And I'm arguing for an equal output rate so that both kinds of fans get what they want. At the end of the day, I'm not the one truely arguing for consistency or nothing. I'm arguing for creative freedom for the games that they could create from here on out. Just that it also doesn't completely annihilate the canon by default, as well.

There's just way too many benifits for a split timeline for me to ever really agree to be against it, tbh. I'll agree that them retconning the classic games out of existence would be the worst case scenario, though... Dunno how much worth it'd be to leave the concept of split timeliness behind or not, with how much of a lost cause the modern series is already with its handling of plot and such, though.

I do think you're selling short how many problems an alternate timeline fixes for the canon, though, outside of Force's own writing flaws with the villains so far. Constantly having Classic popping in and out of the modern era without any repercussions on his timeline, not to mention endangering the games themselves to being non-canon in the process... And at the end of the day, dimension hopping >>> time travel in terms of consistant logic. Every time.

Of course the obvious solution would be to stop using Classic Sonic in their modern games, but we all know that isn't exactly guaranteed to happen anytime soon :L

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

Sooooo, I wonder if classic sonic could be the young sonic from generations, the original timeline, but, modern sonic and the rest of the cast are from the alternate dimension. 

Come on, think about it, shadow and chaos are bad guys, there's animal soldier fighting with sonic, (When was the last time you've seen a wolf and dog anthro in a sonic game? Zavok Is not seen with the deadly six. (Maybe this was before they became the deadly six in this dimension or it's just zavok).  Eggman has won and his robots look nastier.

[Wraith]

6 hours ago, The Deleter said:

I don't care about Forces' narrative though :V That ship sailed a looooong time ago for me

I care about the classic series being inhibited in whatever way if Taxman decides to continue working on them, be it through mandates, newly revamped Sonic Bibles, or otherwise. And I'm arguing for an equal output rate so that both kinds of fans get what they want. At the end of the day, I'm not the one truely arguing for consistency or nothing. I'm arguing for creative freedom for the games that they could create from here on out. Just that it also doesn't completely annihilate the canon by default, as well.

There's just way too many benifits for a split timeline for me to ever really agree to be against it, tbh. I'll agree that them retconning the classic games out of existence would be the worst case scenario, though... Dunno how much worth it'd be to leave the concept of split timeliness behind or not, with how much of a lost cause the modern series is already with its handling of plot and such, though.

I do think you're selling short how many problems an alternate timeline fixes for the canon, though, outside of Force's own writing flaws with the villains so far. Constantly having Classic popping in and out of the modern era without any repercussions on his timeline, not to mention endangering the games themselves to being non-canon in the process... And at the end of the day, dimension hopping >>> time travel in terms of consistant logic. Every time.

Of course the obvious solution would be to stop using Classic Sonic in their modern games, but we all know that isn't exactly guaranteed to happen anytime soon :L

Creative freedom existed for Sonic for years and years without the need of an alternate timeline so I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. A new classic series could start without an alternate timeline with the handwave that it takes place before the Adventure games happened. Classic Sonic gets dropped off back where he was at after Generations so there would be no repercussions, so there wouldn't be any problems there.

The truth is there are no problems with the Sonic canon outside of plotholes within the games because each game is designed to be episodic. You could say they happened in release order with Mania taking place before Adventure or something and NOTHING would seem out of place. They were designed to be episodic specifically to avoid BS like this, so I really don't get what having an alternate timeline fixes or what it adds aside from complication. 

[Bowbowis]

Y'know what? I don't blame anybody for being concerned that we won't get an explanation for Shadow being evil. It's not as though Pontac and Graff don't have a history of letting key story elements go unexplained. Plus, after Shadow's inexplicable portrayal as a colossal dick in Free Riders, not to mention his trying to murder Sonic simply for having friends in Rise of Lyric, turning him into a straight villain, and pretending that he was always that way, just seems like the next logical step in his character's degradation.