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New Sonic Forces Gameplay teased on twitch.tv (link and screenhots here)

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11 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If he's present Shadow, then there exists the plothole of why in the world he was insistent on revisiting the whole fight in SA2 to begin with. It's never explained. It's honestly easier to take him as another "thing" that got displaced out of time no different from the levels themselves

I just chalked his attitude up to him looking at Final Chase and it reigniting his rivalry towards Sonic, heck, considering the plot of the game says them running through the worlds restores them, having Sonic racing him would actually help fixing that area, so IMO it was just him, in his own rival way going ''well since you gotta run through there again, might as well make it a race, right?''

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

I kinda just assumed the Shadow we fought was SA2!Shadow and the one who showed up at the end was present day Shadow and waved it off. I wouldn't inherently be against some other explanation, I just lean towards the simplest interpretation with that whole issue.

Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they'll explain things like Shadow apparently switching sides in this game. Now, will the explanations be good or at least serviceable? Maybe, maybe not. But I'll be surprised if they don't address it at all.

I mean, I know trusting them is hard, but in interviews, they've been making a big deal of Shadow's betrayal and how it has a big reason, plus Sonic's first level is him chasing Shadow, so at least it's been HEAVILY implied that Shadow's role in the story will be central.

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Yeah, that's what I'm saying: I'm confident there's going to be a reason for it. The only question is if it'll be handled well.

Personally I'm predicting that he's gonna turn out to be a mole but he's not going to let Sonic in on it. For some reason I get the impression they'll go for a relatively mundane explanation like that instead of stuff like mind control or alternate timelines, which I'd be fine with but I think this being the Shadow we know and he's doing it of his own free will would make for more interesting interactions.

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27 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I kinda just assumed the Shadow we fought was SA2!Shadow and the one who showed up at the end was present day Shadow (I like to think he got snatched too but was immune to the whole freezing thing because fuck it, why does Sonic get to be the only one?) and waved it off. I wouldn't inherently be against some other explanation, I just lean towards the simplest interpretation with that whole issue.

 

Silver is implied to have met Sonic and know he's a good guy, though. He makes a comment about you being some kind of "fake sonic". So he would be a Silver from the right time period, just being stupid.

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Eh, Silver's a weird case because he's already a character from another time. There's no "present" Silver to rip out of time; you could argue that just because the Silver we encounter in Generations has met Sonic before, that doesn't mean Sonic has met him (that's time travel for ya).

Though admittedly his post-'06 appearances do have a vague continuity of sorts, I think we're supposed to consider Rivals or w/e as his proper first encounter with Sonic? But that's a spinoff and SEGA/Sonic Team's stance on those being canon is a bit all over the place.

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16 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Personally I'm predicting that he's gonna turn out to be a mole but he's not going to let Sonic in on it.

The problem with that is Eggman would have to be mighty dense to trust Shadow enough to let him anywhere near his central operation. He's seen Shadow's evolution first hand, and while he may be willing to give Shadow a chance to return to the dark side, he'd keep him at arms length at all times.  Werehog's arms length even. How effective of a mole could he possibly be?

I do have my own theories about whats going down here, and most of them have to do with Infinity abilities. However if we are looking for the simplest, most straightforward answer as to why Shadow is a bad guy, I think the omission of Rouge and Omega is quite telling. He could be doing this to keep them safe.

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15 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Eh, Silver's a weird case because he's already a character from another time. There's no "present" Silver to rip out of time; you could argue that just because the Silver we encounter in Generations has met Sonic before, that doesn't mean Sonic has met him (that's time travel for ya).

Though admittedly his post-'06 appearances do have a vague continuity of sorts, I think we're supposed to consider Rivals or w/e as his proper first encounter with Sonic? But that's a spinoff and SEGA/Sonic Team's stance on those being canon is a bit all over the place.

Pretty sure he's from Rivals, considering Sonic Team has a similar instance with the Blaze in the main games being the one from Rush, and Iizuka flat out saying the Blaze we know is from the Sol Dimension, not from the future.

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I find the whole outcry over Shadow's role as antagonist pretty ridiculous to be honest. The trailer was pretty clearly trying to make you think 'WTF', that was the whole point. As Izuka says, there will be a reason for Shadow's actions (and Chaos' return). It might be an awful excuse, but there will be an excuse nontheless. The idea that Sonic Team would just make Shadow evil without any reason is laughabe considering they've spent multiple games painstakingly costructing convoluted motives for Shadow's actions (he's on a mission to avenge his friend's death, oh now he's an android who wants to find out if he's a real hedgehog, oh no wait; now he's a secret GUN agent).

Yes, he was thinly put into Generations as a boss, but that's literally the only time that's ever happened in a Sonic Team title. It made perfect sense in Generations considering that title was explicitly about revisting old levels and fighting past bosses recreated in HD. There's no explanation for any of the bosses in the game because you are expected to be familiar with the franchise's history. Perhaps poor storytelling (and Generations had virtually no plot anyway), but it's no foundation for getting all conspiracy theory that Sonic Team would make Shadow evil for absolutely no reason. Boom is a different universe created by different people, so that version of Shadow has absolutely no bearing on this.

I swear this fanbase gets ridiculously paranoid about the tiniest things because of how Sonic Team have fucked up in the past. Yes, it's reasonable to worry that Shadow will have an awful motive as a villain, but the idea that Shadow will be a villain 'just because' is completely absurd and should be disregarded out of hand.

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I am heavily inclined not to accept any argument involving the implication that a huge number of people are simply wrong and hysterical, or, ultimately, crazy or evil towards Sonic.

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1 hour ago, Plasme said:

 

I swear this fanbase gets ridiculously paranoid about the tiniest things because of how Sonic Team have fucked up in the past. Yes, it's reasonable to worry that Shadow will have an awful motive as a villain, but the idea that Shadow will be a villain 'just because' is completely absurd and should be disregarded out of hand.

I'm sorry for not having faith in a series that has consistently written terrible stories for the better part of a decade :\

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3 minutes ago, JovahexeonJunkoJoranvexeon said:

Really hoping that isn't the case in the actual game. :/

I hope it is, because that would be eleven fucking villains in one game all vying for some satisfying level of narrative justification. In the last Sonic Team developed game, they couldn't even bother really developing six of them beyond their basic tropes.

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3 hours ago, Plasme said:

I swear this fanbase gets ridiculously paranoid about the tiniest things because of how Sonic Team have fucked up in the past. Yes, it's reasonable to worry that Shadow will have an awful motive as a villain, but the idea that Shadow will be a villain 'just because' is completely absurd and should be disregarded out of hand.

I mean, that's surely how it started, right? They're making this big huge game with a bunch of villains and they made Shadow one "just because", and then they have to come up with an explanation for it afterwards.

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It's a shame that this premise is being blown on this game. It could be so effective if done right. Nothing needs to be said. The imagery spoke for itself. Eggman has won. Fix it.

Sonic-Forces-Logo-587x330.jpg

I have no idea why they added the other shit other than things like Classic Sonic and Chaos would catch the eyes of as many casual fans as possible. A lot of things about this game feel like grasps for attention instead of things they added because they thought they would help the experience. I expect something along the lines of Lost World but with more extended cast cameos.

 

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Apologies for being behind, but I heard talk of Classic Sonic being from a different dimension now, retconning Generations, is that confirmed or is that an educated guess?

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21 minutes ago, Zippo said:

Apologies for being behind, but I heard talk of Classic Sonic being from a different dimension now, retconning Generations, is that confirmed or is that an educated guess?

It's taken from dialogue directly from the gameplay we've seen.

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Just saw! Hmm. Not sure how to feel about that. On one hand, I liked the concept of Sonic growing and changing as time goes on. On the other hand, all three Sonic designs all have their own continuity and worlds now. Sonic 4 and Generations being retconned out of existence is sure to upset a number of people, though. 

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56 minutes ago, Zippo said:

 Sonic 4 and Generations being retconned out of existence is sure to upset a number of people, though. 

Well, to be fair, since this Sonic is from another dimension, then we know he isn't one and the same as the Classic Sonic from Generations.

We KNOW that guy was from the past, because he was caught up with the Time Eater. He even jumped through a time portal to head back home with a tagline "Enjoy your future".

So nothing actually gets retconned here. We just have another, different Classic Sonic for this one. That must of been what they meant when they said this was not Generations 2.

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A while back I thought that it might be a good idea to make classic Sonic in an alternate dimension for Mania's sake, but I never expected the idea to get so much flack, tbh...

Though I was more saying "alternate dimension" as in "alternate timeline". I mean look at Rick and Morty; the entire premise is around multidimensional hopping, and yet they also visit alternate timeliness, as well. "Alternate dimension" just means a dimension either parallel or different to our own, after all, and that can apply to the infinite timeline theory, as well.

That this classic Sonic is from an alternate dimension doesn't negate the fact that Classic Sonic exists, (at least unless Sega outright retconns it... :L) it means he's from an alternate dimension/timeline now. This could be the very Classic Sonic from Generations in fact, if they wanted it to be. What with Sonic and Eggman seeing the future for themselves, do you really think that time would pan out the exact same as this universe did, ala a time loop? Nah, they interfered something fierce, to the point where Eggman finds out he always loses. No way does it stay the same with them retaining their memories and all. And thus, a new timeline is born.

The fact that this Sonic is from a different timeline is of no consequence unless they actually go through with saying "the first games never happened", (which would be just... Wow...) but on the side, it gives the series from Mania onwards a chance to grow into whatever may come from it. So I don't really see much of a problem with it, considering that, tbh. *shrug*

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The reason the idea is getting flack is because there's literally no good reason to do it. There's no reason to split the timeline or dimensional fabric of the canon up just because different artists in Sega draw Sonic differently. You want to make a cool classic game? Then just make one. Mania would not be restricted in any sense by being set in a single timeline with the rest of the games that came before.

All splitting the canon up does is unnecessarily complicate things.

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10 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

As a very straightforward adventure where the goal is to stop Eggman, Generations doesn't leave much room for questions. It spills the pot of potential all over the floor and shrugs it off, but the plotting itself isn't really confusing. However, if you care about canon or if you're a time travel fan, yeah, it's a hot fucking mess. SA2(?) Shadow's presence isn't the only issue, although he's a big one (and it would be kinda cool in Forces if these characters were their Generations incarnations) but there's also the issue of how Classic Sonic's adventures affected future events. Either we've got two timelines (which would also very nicely justify the whole "alternate dimension" angle), or- again- we've got two Shadows, two Eggmans, and a Silver running around in the present.....

Honestly, in talking about it, I will forgive a lot of storytelling dumbfuckery if Forces exists solely to explain away this shit and gets crazy with it Goku Black arc-style.

That idea would be cool if you could actually play as other characters, I feel like it will be kind of moot for sonic to beat the sonic adventure 2 version of shadow, when shadow could do that, and there could be an interesting how far i've come as a person moment. But maybe you do, and that happens, I don't know.  And it wasn't just bad guy characters, you fought previous versions of everyone. There could actually be, introspection, and self criticism, and retrospectives. This is sonic, so I guess i'm asking for too much

As for temporal disruption, it would have to be more than two timelines, because it would have to explain why specific versions of characters are here, because much like the issue with the shadow wins timeline, which is also a failure of that future comic arc, is that the shadow wins timeline is the world is blown up. That's sort of my other issue with shadow being evil, even if its the sa2 shadow he doesn't care about being apart of some super villian group, he just wanted to blow up the world, he was vengeful upset , not listening to reason. 

I hope it doesn't go in a DBZ super direction, personally. 

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1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

The reason the idea is getting flack is because there's literally no good reason to do it. There's no reason to split the timeline or dimensional fabric of the canon up just because different artists in Sega draw Sonic differently. You want to make a cool classic game? Then just make one. Mania would not be restricted in any sense by being set in a single timeline with the rest of the games that came before.

All splitting the canon up does is unnecessarily complicate things.

Between the fact that they were already running into issues with Sonic 4 using the Modern design and Episode II mechanizing little planet but never getting resolved, I'd say there's a good reason to. Constantly trying to squash games inbetween one another is a recipe for things to go wrong consistantcy-wise, imo, and also really limits the risks that they could take with the series. You're basically asking any sequels to this direction to be in a time bubble with set rules, which... Isn't that appealing, gotta admit.

Besides the fact that it frees up the classic series to have regular entries alongside the modern one, rather than either taking precedence and either ignoring the other in Modern's case, or potentially rebooting the series in favor of its aesthetic for Classic. Basically, the whole sub-series spiel that was talked about for Boom, except for the series everyone was actually asking for: Classic Sonic.

And really, it isn't that complicated, imo. Both series have the same starting point, Generations comes and interferes with the timeline at around S3&K, and classic and modern split off into two seperate universes. It's not that hard to follow, especially compared to the alternative...

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Have to agree with Nepa bit, the timeline thing is actually ridiculous, and here I thought Generations once upon a time was gonna be the end of an old era and start a new timeless slate.

And thats what I wish Sonic canon was to tell you the truth: timeless adventures. You can have some direct sequels sure, but I'd much rather do away with overarching dimension hopping timeline for some self contained timeless adventures. You can still feature nostalgic enemies and settings but it gives you room to breathe and experiment with artstyles and so forth. Heck you can do that regardless even lmao.

I just feel like long timelines are used for either character building or driving the plot of a huge story, and Sonic does neither really. Peeps stay the same and each game seems to be a new world stopping problem; so why insist on caring about two Sonics and if Shadow is the real one and blah blah blah. Why cant it just be more Mickey Mouse style and things dont age or time doesnt really seem to be a thing.

Tellin' ya, coulda just lamely checked out with "Time Eater ate the time so...we're doing this now" Sonic Team :v

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