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New Sonic Forces Gameplay teased on twitch.tv (link and screenhots here)


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4 hours ago, Ratcicle King said:

Let's be fair here. The Egg Dragoon isn't here for nostalgia.

He's here because they're basically reusing all Sonic Generation assets and they needed a cool designed mech for the bait and switch of the Green Hill boss fight.

Oh come on! Sonic Team has had four years to work on this game, with the added benefit of not splitting themselves up to work on multiple projects for once. Surely they could had come up with a new boss in its place for a bait-and-switch? Let alone a new boss fight overall? What on earth have they been doing all of this time? Look at Mario Odyseey--Nintendo EPD arguably had the same amount of development time Sonic Team had to work on their new game (with Lost World and 3D World coming out in 2013) and that game isn't visibly recycling bosses or levels--and unlike Sonic, Mario is a series where recycling enemies, bosses, and level themes / level identities is practically ingrained into its core identity

Like @Diogenes said, why is this series so content in just drowning itself in nostalgia throwbacks now? And its not even good attempts as nostalgia most of the time (Mania being the exception)? Its ridiculous that we have Custom Hero Green Hill level (which has visible changes with the pipes, construction site, and the mechanical spiders roaming around) and the Classic Sonic Green Hill (a verbatim rip of Green Hill with only token sand hills in the background as the only visible change) in the same game. Throwbacks to older content is rarely cleverly done or kept as a novel surprise anymore, its now direct rehashes blatantly paraded up front and sold out for cheap hype.

Other than that, I don't think I'd be saying anything new that others have said already. The UI / game HUD looks like a mess. The radios looks like it could be another grating example of having NPC characters involved going wrong (and before anyone says it--just because it *could* be toggled on/off or made optional doesn't make it not bad. Nevermind there's an equal chance Sonic Team will leave it as is, Sega PR claimed the voices regarding Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric could be turned off / toned down in the final release....only for that to not be true). The game still looks like an incoherent mashup of conflicting ideas; and I'm still not convinced the final game, when all is said and done, won't be a mediocre product that is technically polished, but creatively bankrupt in its execution.

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3 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Christ just relax already, I only just noticed it and thought it was funny because for images which are blatantly lying to us and are carefully crafted it had such a small mistake in it. The more point of the post was to show just how bad the levels are going to look when you slap the UI on top of them.

I don't know where to begin with this. You're describing every single game ever.

The UI is trash. Dunno how that slipped past the design team. But hey ho, crappy game is crappy.

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Are we really wondering why the series is content in drowning itself in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had

when most of the loudest criticism and positive feedback Sonic Team has gotten for years was to drown the series in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had?

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Sonic Team doesn't know how to handle positive feedback. They take it too literally.

They heard "We like the wisps" and took that to mean "Put wisps in everything even if it doesn't make sense aesthetically from a design or story perspective" instead of "You found a way to incorporate a gimmick into a game that (mostly) doesn't take away from the main experience but (mostly) enhances it a bit".

 

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6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Are we really wondering why the series is content in drowning itself in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had

when most of the loudest criticism and positive feedback Sonic Team has gotten for years was to drown the series in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had?

Colors did it right. This game has some Sonic 4 tier thought process when they developed (and Lost World too I guess). It is weird that fans came up with the most imaganitive aesthetic since Colors (new zones in Mania).

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1 minute ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Sonic Team doesn't know how to handle positive feedback. They take it too literally.

They heard "We like the wisps" and took that to mean "Put wisps in everything even if it doesn't make sense aesthetically from a design or story perspective" instead of "You found a way to incorporate a gimmick into a game that (mostly) doesn't take away from the main experience but (mostly) enhances it a bit".

 

Then they heard "We want other playable characters like Shadow, Tails, and Knuckles. etc." and then threw in Character Creation to dodge it...

One step forward, two steps back it seems.

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Colors' ideas are good on paper but I would wager the actual technical execution in the movement and difficulty curves is so by-the-numbers that it's still lacking, especially in comparison to the direct competition that released around the time with the same scaled-back approach.

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As Nep said, the reason why we constantly get nostalgia is because the fanbase demanded nostalgia. "Modern Sonic sucks! We should just bring back Classic Sonic!" "These new stages are ass, why can't we get the good stages, like Chemical Plant Zone?!". 

Keep in mind I'm utterly tired with classic gameplay, as well as all the nostalgia pandering bullshit I've seen with Forces. As Classic fans have their game with Mania, I just wanted a proper Modern game again, boost gameplay or otherwise, and because the fans demanded it for so long, SEGA are now in this attempt to please fans by keeping Classic and all of the nostalgia around. Keep in mind, I'm not defending this because again, I fucking can't stand the level of nostalgia pandering nonsense when the original stuff is what's interesting me more (Can we please just get a full run through of Modern's level instead of just seeing more Classic gameplay again?). But as much as SEGA can be blamed for keeping this nostalgia-fuelled mindset going, some of the blame can fall on the fanbase as a whole too. Because they were the ones screaming for years that they wanted Classic back and they wanted all of their "classic levels" to return. So unfortunately, as annoying, and idiotic as it is, SEGA's trying to fulfil the wishes they got for years. 

*Sigh*

On another, more positive note, I liked what they hinted at with Classic Sonic's bosses, where it begins with one, simpler boss, and then that transitions into one of the franchise's later bosses in a new perspective, such as fighting the Egg Dragoon in a full Classic gameplay style. In my opinion, I actually love the idea of bringing back old bosses but changing them in a way that makes them new again, such as when we had to fight the Egg Dragoon in Generations as a speed-styled boss, as opposed to the straight-up brawl of Unleashed's version.

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What gets me about the nostalgic throwbacks is that they're done in such a half assed manner. As if they're screaming "HEY REMEMBER THIS COOL THING FROM YOUR CHILDHOOD? HERE IT IS. DO YOU LOVE US YET, PLEASE LOVE US".

Mania is a nostalgic throwback too, but at it has the balls to try new things on top off it, and thats why people dont mind it.

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That UI is really atrocious. It looks like it was made in Microsoft Paint.

Im so disappointed in Sonic Forces so far. It may end up being a halfway decent game to play, but it will never feel satisfying after waiting almost 4 years since Lost World came out.

To be honest, I would much rather have just had Generations 2 than whatever this is.

Also, and I know this isn't a problem exclusive to Sonic since I see it in Mario and other 2.5D platformers as well, but does anyone else hate when characters jump through apparently solid 3D platforms? At least in proper 2D games it looked like they were either jumping in front of or behind the platforms. Watching the buzzsaw on the Eggmobile clip through the platforms really bugged me.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Then they heard "We want other playable characters like Shadow, Tails, and Knuckles. etc." and then threw in Character Creation to dodge it...

One step forward, two steps back it seems.

They heard it but they fear the critics and their reaction to it more.

IGN still found a way to give the characters shit numerous times in their video review for Generations despite them being toned down for the sake of conforming to their wishes. They should really know by now that this reaction from them is never going to change so might as well work towards making them better but what do I know?

That and they're obviously still scared about replicating Sonic 06. It's exemplified by their attempts to dad joke it's bad juju out of existence and to completely ignore the existence of Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric.

And not talk about how Stephen Frost wasn't let go but actually mysteriously disappeared off the face of the planet. Forever.

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8 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Look at Mario Odyseey--Nintendo EPD arguably had the same amount of development time Sonic Team had to work on their new game (with Lost World and 3D World coming out in 2013)

 

A little reminder that the same team also made Captain Toad Treasure Tracker, though admitelly with 1UP Studios helping, but yeah technically less time.

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14 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Are we really wondering why the series is content in drowning itself in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had

when most of the loudest criticism and positive feedback Sonic Team has gotten for years was to drown the series in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had?

The fans said: I don't like all these different characters with boring gameplay styles. I just want to play as Sonic!

SEGA delivered: Sonic only!

W02.jpg

The fans said: We want a Classic game!

SEGA delivered: Sonic Rush 3

1546468-972790_20101001_screen001.jpg

The fans said: Generations was good. I can't wait to see the next game, but I hope we get to play as other characters too.

SEGA delivered: OC's in Green Hill

It's not my fault that SEGA is dumb.

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Just now, Nepenthe said:

Colors' ideas are good on paper but I would wager the actual technical execution in the movement and difficulty curves is so by-the-numbers that it's still lacking, especially in comparison to the direct competition that released around the time with the same scaled-back approach.

It was definitly not a nostalgic throwback tough. 

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What gets me about the nostalgic throwbacks is that they're done in such a half assed manner. As if they're screaming "HEY REMEMBER THIS COOL THING FROM YOUR CHILDHOOD? HERE IT IS. DO YOU LOVE US YET, PLEASE LOVE US".

Mania is a nostalgic throwback too, but at it has the balls to try new things on top off it, and thats why people dont mind it.

Mania does not put more twists on it than Forces does. It is really about equal on how they mix it up

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Funny thing about the Egg Dragoon, this time around it could easily be the best take on the mech. On Generations Eggman wouldn't shut up and if your were a console player you'd probably notice some absurd graphical hiccups. While in Unleashed it just floated around, threw mooks, initated QTE's.

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1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

Colors' ideas are good on paper but I would wager the actual technical execution in the movement and difficulty curves is so by-the-numbers that it's still lacking, especially in comparison to the direct competition that released around the time with the same scaled-back approach.

I agree with this actually.

Trying to play through Colors without using the wisps clued me into how the design and follow-through of the stages in Colors really were of supreme simplicity. Using the wisps served as a nice distraction in the beginning but eventually, I started craving the thrill I got from Unleashed again. And I feel I got it back when Generations came out so there's that I suppose.

I try my best not to upset anyone when I talk about Colors but... despite all my complaints about Forces, seeing the things I like about it is already assuring me that I know I'll enjoy it more than Colors.

I... really don't want another game like Colors... 

I'm sorry...

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

What gets me about the nostalgic throwbacks is that they're done in such a half assed manner. As if they're screaming "HEY REMEMBER THIS COOL THING FROM YOUR CHILDHOOD? HERE IT IS. DO YOU LOVE US YET, PLEASE LOVE US".

Mania is a nostalgic throwback too, but at it has the balls to try new things on top off it, and thats why people dont mind it.

Isn't the Character Creation thing new in itself?

I figured that it has less to do with whether it's new than it is whether that's what was even asked for.

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26 minutes ago, ChikaBoing said:

I am curios of floor impressions from the websites. Especially with Sonic Mania in direct paralell. Will it mirror impressions on here and other places?

Doubtful, people eat Boost Sonic gameplay up, it's the create a character that could potentially leave a sour taste in people's mouths.

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Watching the footage again and remembered something else I wanted to comment on.

I hope that the score being displayed hints that it's actually going to be something to keep in mind for S Ranks. Please, let us never go back to Generations handing 'em to us on a silver platter.

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I've given up on trying to fully grasp Sega's thought process when it comes to addressing concerns and criticisms in their games, since everyone seems to disagree on how they fail to properly handle it despite generally being unanimous in agreeing that they failed to properly address them.  Not to mention, their MO seems to change every game.  More importantly, it's beside the point.  My list of complaints when it comes to other games (say, for example, the Batman Arkham games or the Shantae series) aren't quite so different in terms of quantitative value, but they are also critically acclaimed (or at the very least well received) games in their own right by critics and fans alike, so there's no reason why even as frustrated as we are with things like the lack of other playable characters and discrepancy in story and tonality, none of that should hinder the game from still being good.  Yet somehow it does.

Basically, Sega is an enigma at this point and I can't figure out if they're taking fan advice too literally or if they're taking fan advice, putting it through a coffee filter, pinpointing terms they recognize and then making the rest up as they go along.

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25 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Are we really wondering why the series is content in drowning itself in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had

when most of the loudest criticism and positive feedback Sonic Team has gotten for years was to drown the series in nostalgic throwbacks at the expense of sensible and exciting design with the material they had?

I really doubt people were specifically calling for another classic Sonic/modern Sonic teamup or to have Green Hill checkerboards become the staple opening stage for every new Sonic game going forward. I can see how praise over those elements can be misinterpreted / spun by Sega and/or Sonic Team to assume that's what people want, but I suspect the actual reality is a different picture.

Then again, apparently its the fans' fault they didn't specify specific character physics (Sonic and Super Sonic) when they ask for physics improvements, and they didn't ask to make Tails playable alone when they asked for Tails to be playable, so you might have a point. So its probably our fault we weren't specifically calling for a boost game without classic Sonic or levels to still have original content instead of rehashes. "We don't know what we want," of course.

Characters, stories, 2D gameplay, and now even game content being addressed by the publisher/developers into the most compromised and deliberately obtuse responses possible. This is one of many real Sonic Cycles--the unicycle clown show of hamfisted company PR and fan feedback.

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2 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The fans said: I don't like all these different characters with boring gameplay styles. I just want to play as Sonic!

The fans said: Generations was good. I can't wait to see the next game, but I hope we get to play as other characters too.

It's not my fault that SEGA is dumb.

You assume quote 1 and quote 3 weren't and still aren't happening simultaneously. Hell, Classic Sonic fills the same niche as the Werehog but nobody gave a fuck because "he's so cute and reminds me of the old games!" It's such a technical compromise that it's actually sorta-kinda smart.

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3 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I really doubt people were specifically calling for another classic Sonic/modern Sonic teamup or to have Green Hill checkerboards become the staple opening stage for every new Sonic game going forward. I can see how praise over those elements can be misinterpreted / spun by Sega and/or Sonic Team to assume that's what people want, but I suspect the actual reality is a different picture.

Generations was one of the most hyped and simultaneously acclaimed 3D Sonics since like Adventure 1, specificially because it was really nothing but easy nostalgia pandering, and as a result people were asking for DLC if not an outright sequel in earnest. So we can't even say most of what Forces has on offer is an actual surprise.

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