Sonic Forces E3 Trailer "The Next Generations" *Huge Spoilers in OP

[Sega DogTagz]

6 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

 Of course it had to be from someone else. Of fucking course.

He is a wannabe dictator. Last time I checked their power is directly derived from their ability to manipulate and domineer the people around them.

If Eggman orchestrated the global takeover, it doesn't particularly matter who or what he used to do it. He had a mission and he accomplished it. I give him props for that. This isn't like Unleahsed or Sonic Adventure were he was cast off his throne before he even got to sit on it. This is full scale global occupation. The Doc really is flexing his muscles here. It doesn't matter if he leaned on Infinite to get the dirty work done, in the end he got what he wanted.

[Multikaris]

20 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

I was mostly enjoying this game's setup even with Eggman taking over and winning. Yesterday showed so much of Eggman's victory being done with industrialization of Green Hill. It was actually exciting. 

Classic Sonic, 2D, Green Hill, all that shit I'm tired of? Didn't matter. The coming strength of their main badguy made up for it. I considered even buying it before the price drop. 

 

Then Infinite showed up today. Of course. I should have known better than to give SEGA props. Of course they'd find a way to fuck it up. Of course Eggman couldn't be granted strength he earned. Of course it had to be from someone else. Of fucking course. 

 

It's inevitable, Infinite is the main badguy here. He'll betray Eggman, toss him to the side or Sonic will beat him for an "lol Eggman final boss". Either case, the doc won't be treated well in this story. 

I'm out. This was the one thing I wanted for years and the minute they started showing that as a possibility they, with a smile on their face, jerked that away. 

Why wouldn't you take a "laugh out loud Eggman" final boss even when he shows such strength otherwise? Why so picky? 

[ZinogreVolt]

I'm personally hoping that Infinite attempts to usurp Eggman only to fail because Eggman one-ups him. It would be a fantastic character moment for the good doctor and a wonderful set-up for the final boss.

[Mad0Mura]

1 hour ago, Goldenlink64 said:

Do you know where you found this out by any chance?

https://twitter.com/SonicJPNews/status/867326130071769088

1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

That's how the writing for every Sonic game made by Sonic Team works.

Lost World was written by Pontaff and Graff, Colors and Generations IIRC were localized by them. 

[Chris Knopps]

You know...

I loathe who Eggman seems to be in Forces...

Once again he is his over-expressive, ridiculous self...

But...

If they had just given him his Archie character...

Which holds onto his present-day self post-Unleashed...

Yet pushes his Satam/Adventure self in to where his present-day self is more like icing on a cake than the cake itself...

I would say...

Thank you...

I don't want who he is today to vanish... As an ADDITION to his character, I find it nice...

But as his COMPLETE character... I want Eggman to die and never show up again, ever, as the villain of a Sonic game.

He is not worth seeing nor' fighting anymore.

BUT...

If they could JUST push his Satam/Adventure self as the cake, and his present-day self as the icing...

I would be... Happy... So, so happy...

[Wittymations]

40 minutes ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

Why wouldn't you take a "laugh out loud Eggman" final boss even when he shows such strength otherwise? Why so picky? 

My problem is, this doesn't sound like strength to me. This sounds like inability unless other elements come into play. He's incapable of doing it on his own. This man should be able to create tools to counter all of these heroes, particularly Sonic since he doesn't have those ingrained abilities. While his physical strength is debatable, he certainly isn't as fast as Sonic or as strong as Knuckles. He's a genius with a seemingly endless supply of material. He should invent things that are able to counter Sonic and the gang.

The gang then has to work around that counter.

 

When this doesn't happen, but instead his "power" comes from piggybacking someone else, it continues the idea of weakness. Why keep him around if he's basically inconsequential?

46 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

He is a wannabe dictator. Last time I checked their power is directly derived from their ability to manipulate and domineer the people around them.

If Eggman orchestrated the global takeover, it doesn't particularly matter who or what he used to do it. He had a mission and he accomplished it. I give him props for that. This isn't like Unleahsed or Sonic Adventure were he was cast off his throne before he even got to sit on it. This is full scale global occupation. The Doc really is flexing his muscles here. It doesn't matter if he leaned on Infinite to get the dirty work done, in the end he got what he wanted.

 

While I can see where you're coming from, given history, this is more likely the case of Eggman having a few days, at most, of pretend world domination whilst being a puppet for Infinite so Infinite can further his/her/its goal. If Infinite were actually loyal to the doc or working for Eggman because they're forced under his control... or its actually Eggman who takes out Infinite when the inevitable betrayal comes along, then I'd be satisfied.

 

I suppose a lot of my issues is jumping the shark a bit, because these things happen so many times in the past, I believe they're going to happen in the future. I'm certain that it's actually Infinite pulling all the strings and not Eggman. I believe he'll ultimately be betrayed and look like he couldn't accomplish his goals without help.

 

On the other hand, most of the times this happened, the poster boy of who betrayed him wasn't plastered on the front (Bar Sonic Adventure DX) and it usually revealed at the end. They also have been making some jokes about predictability with the first boss (Oh look, its this boss aga-Oh, Egg Dragoon) but I'm still pretty sure what I don't want happening is going to happen.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

You know...

I loathe who Eggman seems to be in Forces...

Once again he is his over-expressive, ridiculous self...

But...

If they had just given him his Archie character...

Which holds onto his present-day self post-Unleashed...

Yet pushes his Satam/Adventure self in to where his present-day self is more like icing on a cake than the cake itself...

I would say...

Thank you...

I don't want who he is today to vanish... As an ADDITION to his character, I find it nice...

But as his COMPLETE character... I want Eggman to die and never show up again, ever, as the villain of a Sonic game.

He is not worth seeing nor' fighting anymore.

BUT...

If they could JUST push his Satam/Adventure self as the cake, and his present-day self as the icing...

I would be... Happy... So, so happy...

Personally, my thoughts on how Eggman could have worked are posted here:

Also, as a hypothetical thing, how would you react to this being in Forces:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=870609&type=status

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

What if shadow, zavok, chaos, metal, and infinite were the game versions of egg bosses from archie? Eggman could be holding something over then and each one has their own motives for joining him. One attempts to usurp him in the end only for it to backfire and eggman shows them who's boss in the end. 

Or they're just doing their own thing and using eggman's takeover to cover them.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

45 minutes ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

Why wouldn't you take a "laugh out loud Eggman" final boss even when he shows such strength otherwise? Why so picky? 

Well, we don't even know if that's what we're settling for here, let alone if it has to be all that to the extreme. So, no? No one's being picky and we might actually get something good here despite how some may view it?

[Chris Knopps]

10 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Personally, my thoughts on how Eggman could have worked are posted here:

Also, as a hypothetical thing, how would you react to this being in Forces:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=870609&type=status

I dunno... Forces as a whole doesn't matter to me much anymore so at this point... Whatever would/could be in it, I just...

Don't care...

I just wish the Satam/Adventure character for Eggman was his main aspect and his Unleashed-Now self was just a SMALL addition.

And for F@&KS sake, they could have tweaked his design a LITTLE on top of restoring his better self in this game like the fan concept pictured above to emphasize that he's more serious, yes, but still his megalomaniacle self, he's a force to be reconned with now, but still has that quirky side to him that instills the fact he OWNS you in Forces, but is still able to have that laughable side to him deep down.

I just... Want so little... Why can I not have so little...?

-Edit-

Oh... Right... They love THIS version too much...

[Celestia]

Conversely, I'm fine with Eggman needing some help to pull all this off because it helps solve the whole quandary of "Wait, Sonic disappears temporarily (who knows for how long) and that's all it took for Eggman to win? What about all the other heroes?"

[Wittymations]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Well, we don't even know if that's what we're settling for here, let alone if it has to be all that to the extreme. So, no? No one's being picky and we might actually get something good here despite how some may view it?

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say "Yes, this is possible." It really is possible that Sonic Team can pull something out that'll make me happy and I'll send everyone that said "Told you so, Witty," a message calling them attractive individuals with smiles capable of birthing kittens in a green pasture, but I just don't think that's gonna happen.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 minutes ago, WittyUsername said:

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say "Yes, this is possible." It really is possible that Sonic Team can pull something out that'll make me happy and I'll send everyone that said "Told you so, Witty," a message calling them attractive individuals with smiles capable of birthing kittens in a green pasture, but I just don't think that's gonna happen.

You go about it so much better than a lot of people do. And more politely and considerate. I appreciate that.

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

-Edit-

Oh... Right... They love THIS version too much...

Over-saltiness with how fans receive something you don't like can be the road to ruin.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Over-saltiness with how fans receive something you don't like can be the road to ruin.

I wasn't speaking about consumer preference, I was referring to the companies preference for a more lazy-days and hyucky Eggman in favor of the whole Adventure/Satam direction.

I don't care which version fans like. I'm happy for them and support that like. I just wish the company had an interest in catering to character preferences beyond that for Eggman.

If he has to be a dork... You have a split franchise. But for the main series... I just want him to be his former self with his present self like delicious candy on ice cream, not the entire thing.

[Wittymations]

6 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Oh... Right... They love THIS version too much...

I'll be the first to say, I want Eggman viewed as more powerful. Number One. But this all depends on what world.

Boom Eggman is just dandy where he's at because it's the Boom-verse. He fits in so well and most actually view him as the best character in that series. Plus, each character (at least based on the limited episodes I watched) eats shit at some point, Sonic included. Boom Eggman is the dick neighbor and accomplishes his goal as the dick neighbor.

I view SEGA Sonic a little different due to its mish mash nature. At some points, it was pretty serious (if cheesy) and I want more of that. I don't want darker stories in Boom because, that's just the way it is. A comical segment.

 

Sonic Forces is meant to be taken more serious (It seems, anyway) so I want Eggman to be portrayed as a more capable villain.

Point I'm getting at, by default, there's nothing wrong with Boom Eggman, he fits his role well there. I don't want Boom Eggman to change, like I'm not asking Swiper the Fox to change.

[ZinogreVolt]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

I wasn't speaking about consumer preference, I was referring to the companies preference for a more lazy-days and hyucky Eggman in favor of the whole Adventure/Satam direction.

I don't care which version fans like. I'm happy for them and support that like. I just wish the company had an interest in catering to character preferences beyond that for Eggman.

If he has to be a dork... You have a split franchise. But for the main series... I just want him to be his former self with his present self like delicious candy on ice cream, not the entire thing.

I don't know what you mean, Eggman is still plenty ambitious in modern entries, it's just that the plots have been simpler and less grand scale.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, ZinogreVolt said:

I don't know what you mean, Eggman is still plenty ambitious in modern entries, it's just that the plots have been simpler and less grand scale.

He's ambitious... Yes...

But both his creations and those he approaches just laugh at his ambitions and...

Quite literally throw... Was it cans or rocks the villagers hit him with in Unleashed...?

Nobody cares about Eggman, nobody is scared of him. Even when he does bad things, everyone is just...

"When will you go away? So you did something again... Whatever..." basically.

Ambition means nothing when who you are is worthless and annoying to both the consumers and, sadly, even characters IN the games.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

6 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I don't know what you mean, Eggman is still plenty ambitious in modern entries, it's just that the plots have been simpler and less grand scale.

Well I think the big problem can be summed up with this post I made in a different topic:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22222-new-sonic-forces-gameplay-teased-on-twitchtv-link-and-screenhots-here/?page=16#comment-1123640

Spoiler

Basically, the current problem with how Eggman is portrayed is that he's treated primarily as a joke by everything. The characters and the narrative both do this to him, although at least in the case of the characters, you could at least make the justification that they do so to distract and undercut him, making him more careless and angry to make him an easier target. Where the issue really comes in is in how the NARRATIVE treats him, in that it tries to portray him as both a goofball and a menace at the same time, but fails to do so.

Now before someone tells me that I'm only interested in making him some edgelord ultra evil villain, stop. I'm not. Eggman's greatest strength as a character is that he's both comical and capable of being a terrifying individual without losing the former, but the problem is that current stories don't use this strength effectively.

The way the stories tend to be structured nowadays tend to either do one of two things:

1. Story treats him as a threat, but then the story doesn't do jack with him for the bulk of the story until the end.

OR

2. First 2/3s of the story treat him as a joke, and then attempt to treat him as this dangerous threat.

 

Now the first one's were applicable to the stories of Heroes, 06, and Unleashed. In this scenario this was more of an issue with the story pushing him aside as a villain and reducing him to a minor role.

The second point however, applies to everything AFTER Sonic and the Black Knight with the exception of maybe Free Riders and Rise of Lyric. In this scenario, the story plays up Eggman's comical side and it CAN be entertaining. But then the third part of the story generally starts up and then suddenly it's as if the narrative remembers that Eggman's supposed to be the big villain and tries to treat him as the big bad, as in something to be taken seriously despite his comical behavior earlier.

The problem however is that this falls flat on it's face because in the Colors Era onwards, there's almost little to no buildup to this point, nothing that shows that despite how silly Eggman can be that he's still a legitimately dangerous maniac, or if there are any such moments such as the mind control ray or the cannon in Colors, they are almost IMMEDIATELY undermined right after their introduction, as if the narrative is too terrified to actually let such a thing play out and show Eggman's true colors as a psychopathic manchild and establish that yes, he is a goofball, but he's a COMPETENT goofball.

As a result, not only does the third part of the story where he establishes that he's the big bad feel jarring because the transition scenes needed to establish him as a threat don't exist, but it also ends up feeling like a hollow gesture, making Eggman the bad guy simply because he's expected to be the bad guy rather than actually SHOWING his villainy and competence.

The sad thing is that the way to fix this is incredibly simple: Let his genuinely evil moments show, and let them actually have consequences. Think how much more involving the story of Colors would be if the mind control ray HAD actually worked on Tails, and Sonic was forced to fight against him, or Tails ended up serving as Eggman's brainwashed minion for the latter half of the game, with Eggman doing comical yet utterly dogkicking things such as claiming to make Tails his protege while also mocking Sonic along the way. This would have made things so much more satisfying AND more importantly, would help give Eggman credibility without undermining his goofy qualities.

Mind you, I don't think it's exactly what Chris meant, but the general idea is there.

 

Also, for everyone in this topic: how would you feel if it turns out that Infinity was a parody of Mary Sue Sonic OCs, and is basically Custom Hero's evil counterpart? The normal everyman who wants to be a part of Sonic's world vs the crazed lunatic who wants to warp Sonic's world to his own desires, even if it means destroying the foundation of that world itself.

 

...This sounds like Hyrule Warriors now that I think about it.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

What if, whenever the other villains attempt to usurp eggman, eggman deals with them in a dark, cruel and unjust way? It's a win win

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Acoolsonicfan said:

What if, whenever the other villains attempt to usurp eggman, eggman deals with them in a dark, cruel and unjust way? It's a win win

...He did that a little in Lost World with the conch...

...It didn't do anything for how he is perceived...

He's literally at a point where, because of his character, even when he does cruel things, even when he wins, you just don't care, you can't take it seriously, because you know who he is just is not worth being afraid of.

There was a guy in one of the live-action Flintstones movies I believe who threatened to kill all the dinosaurs by poisoning them, and guess what?

Nobody cared. They just told him to shut up and go away. Not even the cops cared.

That is Eggman now.

[ZinogreVolt]

1 minute ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Well I think the big problem can be summed up with this post I made in a different topic:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22222-new-sonic-forces-gameplay-teased-on-twitchtv-link-and-screenhots-here/?page=16#comment-1123640

  Hide contents

Basically, the current problem with how Eggman is portrayed is that he's treated primarily as a joke by everything. The characters and the narrative both do this to him, although at least in the case of the characters, you could at least make the justification that they do so to distract and undercut him, making him more careless and angry to make him an easier target. Where the issue really comes in is in how the NARRATIVE treats him, in that it tries to portray him as both a goofball and a menace at the same time, but fails to do so.

Now before someone tells me that I'm only interested in making him some edgelord ultra evil villain, stop. I'm not. Eggman's greatest strength as a character is that he's both comical and capable of being a terrifying individual without losing the former, but the problem is that current stories don't use this strength effectively.

The way the stories tend to be structured nowadays tend to either do one of two things:

1. Story treats him as a threat, but then the story doesn't do jack with him for the bulk of the story until the end.

OR

2. First 2/3s of the story treat him as a joke, and then attempt to treat him as this dangerous threat.

 

Now the first one's were applicable to the stories of Heroes, 06, and Unleashed. In this scenario this was more of an issue with the story pushing him aside as a villain and reducing him to a minor role.

The second point however, applies to everything AFTER Sonic and the Black Knight with the exception of maybe Free Riders and Rise of Lyric. In this scenario, the story plays up Eggman's comical side and it CAN be entertaining. But then the third part of the story generally starts up and then suddenly it's as if the narrative remembers that Eggman's supposed to be the big villain and tries to treat him as the big bad, as in something to be taken seriously despite his comical behavior earlier.

The problem however is that this falls flat on it's face because in the Colors Era onwards, there's almost little to no buildup to this point, nothing that shows that despite how silly Eggman can be that he's still a legitimately dangerous maniac, or if there are any such moments such as the mind control ray or the cannon in Colors, they are almost IMMEDIATELY undermined right after their introduction, as if the narrative is too terrified to actually let such a thing play out and show Eggman's true colors as a psychopathic manchild and establish that yes, he is a goofball, but he's a COMPETENT goofball.

As a result, not only does the third part of the story where he establishes that he's the big bad feel jarring because the transition scenes needed to establish him as a threat don't exist, but it also ends up feeling like a hollow gesture, making Eggman the bad guy simply because he's expected to be the bad guy rather than actually SHOWING his villainy and competence.

The sad thing is that the way to fix this is incredibly simple: Let his genuinely evil moments show, and let them actually have consequences. Think how much more involving the story of Colors would be if the mind control ray HAD actually worked on Tails, and Sonic was forced to fight against him, or Tails ended up serving as Eggman's brainwashed minion for the latter half of the game, with Eggman doing comical yet utterly dogkicking things such as claiming to make Tails his protege while also mocking Sonic along the way. This would have made things so much more satisfying AND more importantly, would help give Eggman credibility without undermining his goofy qualities.

Mind you, I don't think it's exactly what Chris meant, but the general idea is there.

 

Also, for everyone in this topic: how would you feel if it turns out that Infinity was a parody of Mary Sue Sonic OCs, and is basically Custom Hero's evil counterpart?

I wouldn't even mind it, the plot is already setting itself up to probably be incredibly dumb. If they double down on this and make the story stupid, but the fun kind of stupid, then this could be an incredibly memorable villian assuming that's done correctly.

Of course, there's always a chance it go entirely wrong and end up sucking eggs.

[StaticMania]

His attempts to be Civil with the Civilians are astounding...that Eggman.

[Wittymations]

3 minutes ago, Acoolsonicfan said:

What if, whenever the other villains attempt to usurp eggman, eggman deals with them in a dark, cruel and unjust way? It's a win win

That would actually justify everything in my book. Doesn't need to be dark, cruel and unjust, but... like, maybe Infinite attempts to take him out, Eggman seems like he's defeated, but some type of beam or omething shoots him in the back with Eggman going "Yeah right." Absorb the guy's power into the final boss machine. Probably do that to the other villains too.

[Dr. Detective]

I actually don't understand why either of them would need to betray each other or eventually take out each other at all. 

It's entirely possible the two could just work together and get defeated together. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

8 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Nobody cares about Eggman, nobody is scared of him. Even when he does bad things, everyone is just...

Well, he did yield terror from citizens across the world in Unleashed for splitting the earth.

The wisps were plenty terrified of him in Colors seeing how he was burning them alive for fuel.

And he had the Zeti kept in check well. He didn't really need them to be terrified of him.

Now if you're asking for Sonic to act scared of him, that's a fat chance across the entire series.