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Sonic Forces E3 Trailer "The Next Generations" *Huge Spoilers in OP

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1 hour ago, Detective Kaito said:

How is Eggman supposed to win without outside help exactly? Sonic has trumped his plans every single time without fail, so it's only natural that the only way Eggman could win is by outside help.

Even though all those times, he had outside help. Dark Gaia, Chaos, Shadow to a degree, The Zeti, etc. So why not do something different and have him do all this by himself. Although IMO I would've just let him use the Chaos Emeralds and that's the only thing I would let him have. 

Other than that goodbye. 

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1 minute ago, Shaddy the guy said:

If he always loses even with help, how are we supposed to believe he can do anything on his own? The only thing that seems capable of giving him any advantage is the absence of Sonic, both in this and Chronicles.

...Haven't we had more games featuring Eggman WITH help than WITHOUT actually...?

I don't see how he's had a chance to really prove himself in any way/shape/form in terms of being capable on his own since we've had someone/something with him since Sonic Adventure in just about every title since 3D became a thing.

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2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

If he always loses even with help, how are we supposed to believe he can do anything on his own? The only thing that seems capable of giving him any advantage is the absence of Sonic, both in this and Chronicles.

Cause in all those cases they all turn against him. I wouldn't think Eggman would turn against himself.

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Time Eater didn't. Nega Wisps didn't...voluntarily. Chaos basically did what Eggman wanted and then Eggman promptly didn't build anything on the ruins. Nega didn't in the Rush games. He turned Emerl against Sonic, infact.

He's incompetent with or without something giving him assistance, is my point. 

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Incompetent is too strong a word. Despite all that, the dude did

-Conquer and enslave the Lost Hex on his own

-Conquer and enslave a small cluster of planets (Wisp homeworld) on his own

-Defeated Super Sonic and Split the planet on his own

-Reverse engineered the Time Eater, captured all of Sonic's friends and begin to re-write space time on his own (with help from himself)

 

And that's just the last couple mainstream games. That doesn't sound like someone who can't accomplish much on his own. He isn't some bumbling dolt who can't do anything. He's a pitcher who's a pitch away from throwing a perfect game --> who then gives up the home-run to the other teams best player.

And the circumstances dictate if it even matters if he utilizes outside help anyway. He leveraged the Zeti against Sonic by twisting their arms behind their backs. He used to use Knuckles all the time by tricking him into doing his dirty work. He even dissected the Time Eater and made it his plaything. The Doctor has as extensive a history of using and manipulating things/people as he does of being betrayed by them. Taking advantage of others is part of the job description. It shouldn't immediately be looked down as "needing help".

 

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1 minute ago, Joellui said:

 

Cause in all those cases they all turn against him. I wouldn't think Eggman would turn against himself.

When he really DOES stand out on his own you really get to see his full potential.

Despite how quickly Chaos may have wiped it out, he had the Egg Carrier MK II as a plan B ready right off the bat, had it not been against Chaos x 9000 power I'd say Sonic and co. would have been obliterated from the sudden surprise, he had the thing waiting and had he used it to gain the upper hand against the heroes, Forces would have likely happened back then.

giphy.gif

"Surprise bi@$hes!"

Then you had SA2 where Eggman took matters into his own hand, popped a gun up to Amy's head and said "F@$k you, give me the d@$n thing now" basically. He didn't waste time, didn't bother with being smug again, he stepped up and took instant action.

hqdefault.jpg

(No laughing, just doing, THAT'S a better Eggman)

Then you had Shadow where he'd prepped an entire armada of hundreds/thousands lying in waiting. Again, had the Black Arms not happened, it would have been another game that could have started Forces then and there because of the massive scale of attack on the world he could have performed.

Egganfleetshadowthehedgehog.thumb.png.1f890f2b933d9bd9dc50797b52bd6653.png

(Too bad it had to be wasted on Black Arms...)

Then you have Unleashed where Eggman technically DID win from the start. He wrecked Sonic and obliterated the planet in one fell swoop. Had it not been because of Dark Gaia's complications, there you go.

Whenever he steps up on his own, Eggman gets FAR more serious, FAR more direct and quick with his actions, and he finally SHUTS THE HELL UP instead of gloating behind his god/monster of the week.

...I like an Eggman that shuts up and just kills/destroys everything, it always makes for the best plot and best characterization.

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Well, that came out of nowhere.  ...But sure, why not.  (Other than for lots of reasons.)  It strikes me (with respect) as a ridiculous twist, but it takes the characters and does something with them that forces them to have a reaction and an emotional investment, and that's what I want out of this game's story.

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5 hours ago, FFWF said:

Well, that came out of nowhere.  ...But sure, why not.  (Other than for lots of reasons.)  It strikes me (with respect) as a ridiculous twist, but it takes the characters and does something with them that forces them to have a reaction and an emotional investment, and that's what I want out of this game's story.

I was just being randomly stupid.

I loathe to admit it but I'm guessing it's something that will p@$$ off Penders as was discussed a while back.

...The release of this game might be fun for all the WRONG reasons. lol

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Guys, infinite is a shape-shifter. He can also clone himself to look like Sonic's enemies from the past. He saw how powerful they were so he took their forms. Infinite forms.

Either that or he time-cloned these guys. They're not the real shadow, chaos, metal sonic and zavok. 

That's just a theory I had.

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More hints about the story. I'm waiting for the translation on this one but his replies say "Shadow, why?" and "Chaos!" too...

So that means there is going to be an explanation for both Shadow and Chaos. So I'm removing the possibilty of them being there just because "they are bad now".

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18 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

More hints about the story. I'm waiting for the translation on this one but his replies say "Shadow, why?" and "Chaos!" too...

So that means there is going to be an explanation for both Shadow and Chaos. So I'm removing the possibilty of them being there just because "they are bad now".

"Infinite which appeared accompanying the past bosses. What is the power of this character called by the name expressing infinity?"

Rough translation just questions what Infinite's power is supposed to be.

Calling it now, it's pocket dimensions.

... Also I keep wondering whether infinite is an entirely new character, or one of the extended cast that ended up this way because of Eggman interfering with dimensions.

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1 minute ago, Fusion Force said:

"Infinite which appeared accompanying the past bosses. What is the power of this character called by the name expressing infinity?"

Rough translation just questions what Infinite's power is supposed to be.

Calling it now, it's pocket dimensions.

... Also I keep wondering whether infinite is an entirely new character, or one of the extended cast that ended up this way because of Eggman interfering with dimensions.

Blaze hasn't showed up yet :ph34r:

Nah, maybe is just a new character.

But not gonna lie, that would be cool.

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6 minutes ago, Fusion Force said:

Neither has Rouge, unless I missed something.

Infinite's ears are very bat like. I would be surprised if it were the case though.

I love how now we can speculate about stuff like this because the story planner for '06 is the producer of Forces... Any crazy stuff can happen now this guy is on charge (now if that's a good thing or bad thing, we have to see)

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2 hours ago, Fusion Force said:

Neither has Rouge, unless I missed something.

Infinite's ears are very bat like. I would be surprised if it were the case though.

Given the hair, I'm starting to think this is Tikal having gotten the Winter Soldier treatment. Why else would chaos and Shadow be bad guys?

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22 minutes ago, Miru the Living Planet said:

Given the hair, I'm starting to think this is Tikal having gotten the Winter Soldier treatment. Why else would chaos and Shadow be bad guys?

That would be really interesting, but we all know the Sonic Team wouldn't pull it off.

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i do think it's stupid how we have yet another new villain to take eggman's spot as the big bad

first chaos, then gerald robotnik, then neo metal sonic, then mephiles, then dark gaia, then the deadly six and now infinite. i don't mind new villains occasionally, but we've gotten too many over the years. would have been much better if eggman was the big bad in this game imho

infinite looks really stupid

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52 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

i do think it's stupid how we have yet another new villain to take eggman's spot as the big bad

first chaos, then gerald robotnik, then neo metal sonic, then mephiles, then dark gaia, then the deadly six and now infinite. i don't mind new villains occasionally, but we've gotten too many over the years. would have been much better if eggman was the big bad in this game imho

infinite looks really stupid

 

When you say stuff like that you're really just discarding all the stuff Eggman did up to that point in favor of what happens during the last 5 mins of the story.

Take Dark Gaia. Yeah, at the end he did just toss Eggman aside so he could have the final showdown with Sonic, but up until that point, Eggman built a contraption to defeat Super Sonic, he split the planet using Chaos energy, he stole the Gaia manuscripts, he collected all the fragments of Dark Gaia using his own brand of creative genus and he finally managed to build Eggmanland. He shot down Tails, and established small armies at most of the Gaia Temples.

The presence of some supernatural being isn't some forgone conclusion that Eggy won't have his time to shine. You even step on your own shoes by mentioning the Deadly Six, because as we all know, Eggman was the big bad at the end of the game anyway. In fact, the good doctor has come out as the last man standing in Lost World, Colors and Generations. You'd have to go all the way back to Unleashed to even find a main series game where he didn't get top billing. That was 2008 man.

 

If you're gonna gripe, at least put some substance behind it. Its not like Chaos, Gaia or Gerald really outshined Eggy anyway. Really the only thing you have to worry about is the doc getting locked in a closet ala what happened with Neo-Metal. The only time Eggman doesn't get his fair share of due is when they decide to keep him out of the story altogether - which as we can see here, isn't going to be the case. He's taken over the world. His face is going to be everywhere.

 

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1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

When you say stuff like that you're really just discarding all the stuff Eggman did up to that point in favor of what happens during the last 5 mins of the story.

when eggman gets swept aside in favor of another villain, he loses credibility as a villain. so what he does before that happens loses its significance to some extent, because it ultimately just led to him getting cucked by someone else

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Take Dark Gaia. Yeah, at the end he did just toss Eggman aside so he could have the final showdown with Sonic, but up until that point, Eggman built a contraption to defeat Super Sonic, he split the planet using Chaos energy, he stole the Gaia manuscripts, he collected all the fragments of Dark Gaia using his own brand of creative genus and he finally managed to build Eggmanland. He shot down Tails, and established small armies at most of the Gaia Temples.

and eggman still went out like a bitch. like a child being sent to bed while the adults (sonic and dark gaia) talk. lame

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The presence of some supernatural being isn't some forgone conclusion that Eggy won't have his time to shine.

him having time to shine is good, but it doesn't change him getting thrown under the bus in favor of some other villain. ultimately, the conflict with eggman wasn't the main conflict in the game; it was just the conflict with whoever the guy replacing him is

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You even step on your own shoes by mentioning the Deadly Six, because as we all know, Eggman was the big bad at the end of the game anyway.

the deadly six were still the villains for the most of the game. the eggman final boss just felt shoehorned

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If you're gonna gripe, at least put some substance behind it.

there is substance. eggman is the villain people love from this franchise. these other villains are just forgettable, tacky and overdone. you don't see mario introducing a bunch of new villains to steal bowser's thunder or zelda introducing a bunch of new villains to steal ganon's thunder

it's harder to take eggman seriously at a villain when a bunch of other villains are taking his job

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35 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

when eggman gets swept aside in favor of another villain, he loses credibility as a villain. so what he does before that happens loses its significance to some extent, because it ultimately just led to him getting cucked by someone else

So we are supposed to ignore that he did the impossible and beat Super Sonic? Someone stepping in for him in the end might take some of the luster off his performance, but lets not pretend that what he does during the game somehow doesn't count because he wasn't the final boss.

This isn't Mass Effect 3 where the ending ruins everything that happened in the 2 games before it. Gaia usurping Eggman at the end shouldn't diminish the fact that he literally nuked the planet. Chaos usurping him at the end of SA1 shouldn't take away from the fact that the dude literally shot a nuke into the heart of Station Square.

 

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the deadly six were still the villains for the most of the game. the eggman final boss just felt shoehorned

Thats busted logic right there. You complain to high heaven when Eggman is the main villain for 99% of the game (Unleashed/SA1) only to be overthrown - but in the same breath you won't give Eggman the credit he is due when he does it to someone else (Lost World).

You are contradicting your own argument. You specifically said that when someone steps in as the final boss - they steal the role as the main conflict of the game. Yet, when Eggman does it, you wave your hand and dismiss it.

Are you sure that is the defense you want to use because it does not stand up to critical analysis. It doesn't even pass the common sense test.

 

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there is substance. eggman is the villain people love from this franchise. these other villains are just forgettable, tacky and overdone.

you don't see mario introducing a bunch of new villains to steal bowser's thunder or zelda introducing a bunch of new villains to steal ganon's thunder

it's harder to take eggman seriously at a villain when a bunch of other villains are taking his job

I'd argue that Metal Sonic and Chaos are hardly forgettable... but thats an issue for another day.

And to that end, I don't see anyone looking to supplant Eggman for his job. Chaos, Gerald, Metal, Black Doom, Mephilies and Dark Gaia were only interested in destruction. None of them were introduced as conquest hungry individuals with a glean to rule everything. They just wanted to watch the world burn. They are hardly in the same camp as Eggman. They are villains who fill a different niche. No one threatened his role as power hungry dictator.

 

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Just a question but if Infinite is the power that Eggman used to enable world domination, what was (according to earlier descriptions) the 'strange power' that brought classic sonic to the present? So far there's been no mention of timetravel/distortion whatever (that I know) so given the links to Generations I wonder if what were seeing is some off the consequences of Eggman' manipulation of time. Infinte doesn't initially look like just a 'generic monster of the week (e.g. biolizard, doom, iblis) given his design.

If he was, why help Eggman take over the World to this extent? No previous villain (betrayed or no) has actually helped Eggman to the extent that he has ACHIEVED his ambition. Looking at the trailers it looks like Eggman has been in control for quite sometime (How was he able to get this far? were was Sonic?), he may have an ulterior motive but right now I can't see it

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