Sonic Forces E3 Trailer "The Next Generations" *Huge Spoilers in OP

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

I suppose another possibility is that Classic Sonic in Forces and Generations is still a past version of Sonic, just not the main series Sonic. His coming from an alternate timeline would at least explain why Modern doesn't seem to recall the events of Generations or Forces.

So we're getting the Classic Sonic from Sonic Underground?

Can't wait to attack with those sick beats yo.

[Eurisko]

On ‎27‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:54 AM, Mr. Armstrong said:

Guys still impress me as you try to give some sense of coherence to the sonic lore, Sonic team can throw any stupidity without context and still be canon in the games discuss that does not make much sense from my point of view.

I agree , this series doesn't take itself too seriously (anymore) , its essentially a cartoon. its for fun and that's the most important thing above all else.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, Bedbug said:

I agree , this series doesn't take itself too seriously (anymore) , its essentially a cartoon. its for fun and that's the most important thing above all else.

Being a cartoon and for fun doesn't excuse being bad. Especially when there are fun cartoons with kids with lore now. People enjoy different things for different reasons, and " its a cartoon" isn't an excuse for things people don't like about something. 

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Being a cartoon and for fun doesn't excuse being bad. Especially when there are fun cartoons with kids with lore now. People enjoy different things for different reasons, and " its a cartoon" isn't an excuse for things people don't like about something. 

I will say things like Stevern Universe and Regular Show definitely show how out of touch Sonic Team are with western demands be it from kids, teens, or adults.

But hey, who cares about analyzing, just go by sales and keep playing guessing games with what people want instead of making the effort to properly research.

[shdowhunt60]

6 hours ago, Bedbug said:

I agree , this series doesn't take itself too seriously (anymore) , its essentially a cartoon. its for fun and that's the most important thing above all else.

It hasn't even been fun. You know what's fun? High stakes. Action. Drama. Those are fun. Not Sonic going on a 30 second ramble about how funny he is to a robot that doesn't even respond.

[Mr. Armstrong]

Personally, I've never played a Sonic game for plot the only thing that matters to me is the gameplay when I think of a story driven games the last thing that comes to mind is Sonic, I'm not saying that they can not criticize writing in the Sonic games.

But Iizuka and the rest of Sonic Team never cared too much in writing or give sense to sonic lore maybe in Forces we could find out that Robotnik is Sonic father.

[Chris Knopps]

4 hours ago, Mr. Armstrong said:

Personally, I've never played a Sonic game for plot the only thing that matters to me is the gameplay when I think of a story driven games the last thing that comes to mind is Sonic, I'm not saying that they can not criticize writing in the Sonic games.

But Iizuka and the rest of Sonic Team never cared too much in writing or give sense to sonic lore maybe in Forces we could find out that Robotnik is Sonic father.

Well... That's one comment you could type to start a savage warpath...

Though granted there's nothing wrong with that stance, it's just one that often gets the writer impaled.

[Shadowlax]

Wasn't that a thing in the comics? Like at one point sonic's origin was he wasn't blue and then robotnik messed something up then he became blue and fast, that isn't just some weird fever dream right?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Old manual stuff, and StC canon. Terrible too, I might add. Completely undermines the idea that Eggman is evil because he chooses to be, replacing it with some "oh the accident TURNED him evil and made him change his name" stupidity. Also, brown Sonic with frizzy quills never looked very appealing.

As for Forces' story, I think it's safe to say they don't care about cross-game continuity that much, but then that's only really because back when they did, it was either in plots so simple that it was hard to really mess up much (classic games), or in scenarios so offensively stupid it couldn't be appreciated (anything concerning Shadow).

Ultimately if you ask me, it's not about whether the plot is conventionally well structured or written, because it never has been, rather it's more about the characters having character (read: the personalities they're supposed to have) and things not getting boring. And with the way things are looking, I have some confidence that they'll deliver on that.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

To me, most important thing about plot is that it energizes the levels.
Main reason why I love Sonic adventure 2's plot so much is not so much the lore or "complexity" or "how good it is". It's not really, but who cares,  I love how it keeps injecting energy into the levels.
Oh no the army is after us! Bam, level. Oh no a bomb is about to go off! Bam, Level. Oh no, Amy's in trouble! Bam, level.
Keeps the beat.

Much prefer that then either over-exposition where the plot is mostly tripping over itself to explain everything.
That or just punching itself in the face with self sabotaging jokes.

As for where Forces will fall into this, beats me. At least the characters seem to be motivated in what's happening, so there's a good start.

[Eurisko]

The story of any sonic game has never been an important factor for me , the gameplay and levels are what makes a sonic game a sonic game. nobody was concerned about any exposition in the original classic titles and they're very much loved games.

The problem with sonic games when they DO try a complex story is they just have  not got it quite right in terms of " oh my god I must find out what happens next" and characterisation and tone.

I think the best written story in terms of context and style was 'Colours'. Some pretty clever jokes and well acted dialogue. It wasn't overblown and complex and it worked for that game.

Generations took the minimalist approach on story and focused entirely on what that game was for - Nostalgia.

Lost world tried to do what colours got right and didn't quite pull it off but I really enjoyed the levels in that game regardless.

Maybe Forces will get the balance right? we shall see.......

[Celestia]

On 6/27/2017 at 7:48 AM, -Ace- said:

Found a video that shows where all the red star rings are in the Modern Sonic stage.

 

Oh, I was wondering where the fourth Star Ring was. That was the only one that I haven't seen in any other footage.

I wonder what they unlock in this game. I'm honestly hoping that if it's Chaos Emeralds again it works like Colours where collecting a certain number unlocks bonus levels ala Game Land that you beat to get the Emeralds. It was like, exactly what I want in Special Stages in all but name (i.e. the standard gameplay instead of a sudden gameplay shift).

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I kinda hope it's not that. It wasn't fun in Colors and it was even LESS fun in Lost World. The fact that we're probably getting a big dumb super final boss means it'd either be story-related emerald collection, or stupid Heroes bullshit where you gotta replay a bunch of stuff just to see the proper ending.

Plus, I liked getting OST remixes and concept art in Generations.

 

On a side note, do you think the avatar character is gonna get a super form? Or maybe, just spitballing, each playstyle has it's own final boss?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

7 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

On a side note, do you think the avatar character is gonna get a super form? Or maybe, just spitballing, each playstyle has it's own final boss?

Oh lord, all of the OCs in the world would be validated...

[NegaMix]

I think it's more likely that the Avatar will fight the penultimate boss (like the Werehog fighting the Egg Dragoon in Unleashed) while the final boss is fought as both Classic and Modern Super Sonic, assuming there even is a Super boss fight. (Heck, there might even be more parallels to Unleashed's endgame if they decide to have the Avatar fight Eggman, while Sonic fights Infinite or something.)

[Sega DogTagz]

While I would hate to see the CaC get a Super Form, I think I could at the very least tolerate it if they went the Heroes route and have them in a Super Bubble. Particularly so if they were to leech that bubble from Super Sonic and not from the emeralds themselves.

They were smart enough not to give the OC's any outlandish super powers, and instead cleverly opted to design the wispon to give them more of a sense of power through gadgets. I gotta think the same will hold true for the chaos emeralds.

 

On a side note, I hope we get a little lure surrounding the development of the wispon. Did Tails build it? Does more than one guy use them? ect.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

I just had a thought! 

So far eggman has brought back:

Death egg robots.

Egg dragoon.

But what's the one mech that can knock super sonic out of his super form?

Yes. This badass right here. Bonus points for being smaller than his other mecha but just as lethal. Eggman whips a steroid version of this out and both super Sonics are toast. He gets them into his tight grip and you, the original character must save your heroes!

*But if it can do that to two super Sonics, what'll you think it'll do to original the character?*

You either collect at least 50 rings to give to the two sonics or face off with the mech yourself.

 

 

 

...Oh I forgot about infinite...

[JackIsInTheStadium]

I don't know why I thought of this but...

What if we are the villains, Shadow has his own reason to fight to save the world, Chaos appears in situations where there is destruction, etc. (And fight back the one who caused that) and Zavok betrayed Eggman but now He's on Eggman's side, Metal Sonic too, in Sonic Heroes. If brainwashing was the reason, then why? It adds nothing to the story. So what if we (Sonic, Sonic and Creativity) are the villains who indirectly caused this, maybe with time travel, or multiverse.

[Indigo Rush]

So many people are upset about Shadow and Chaos being villains again... because they had character arcs that redeemed them.

But I think y'all are jumping the gun a bit.

Look, I'm not above giving even Sonic Team the benefit of the doubt with their usage of supposedly 'reformed' characters like Shadow and Chaos playing antagonistic roles this go round; that's the purpose of the trailer in the first place. It's supposed to make those of us who understand these characters say, "wait, what!?" and speculate why they're in opposition to the heroes, or aligned with Dr Eggman, in Zavok's case.

That weird "Infinite" character is obviously going to be the main catalyst for this. It could be mind control. It might be blackmail. Maybe they're shape-shifting monsters in the likeness of those characters. Perhaps they pulled incarnations of them from different time periods when they were still villains. We're not supposed to know, yet. We're supposed to bicker with each other for the next several months until the cutscenes are leaked game is released and we watch the story unfold. That's how this series works.

I wouldn't exactly stake my life on Sonic Team pulling this off in a satisfying way, but it's pretty obvious there's going to be an explanation of some sort for the switch. What I am saying is I would hold off on raving about the writers betraying the preceding character arcs of Shadow and Chaos until we see what they're up to. I don't think it's worth getting upset over, is all: at least until we see the actual story in it's intended presentation.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Yeah, plus Shadow is sexier when he's evil so I don't understand the complaints.

I mean, uh.

I wonder if that conch thing is in play regarding Zavok. It wasn't ever destroyed, I don't think.

[JosepHenry]

Something that I'm sure that won't be explained is Silver's existence in the game. If they explain that... kudos, but I doubt it.

Also I really don't want them to be brainwashed  and specially not brought from the past. When Shadow and Chaos have their realization moment, they will have to pass through the same process again? I really want something new.

The game rating is PEGI 12 right? Unless there are real guns in the game, I think that's a sign for a more complex story. Again if that's a good thing or bad thing we have too see.

[Indigo Rush]

Silver's explanation will be dubious at best. Neither of his origin stories are considered canon as far as I'm concerned, so he kinda just exists.

[Blue Blood]

I don't care the reason behind it right now. I've so little faith in Sonic Team to pull this off properly. Everything they've done here with this game is wrong, so I've not got any reason to believe that the story is going to be different. 

[Zippo]

I've never cared too much about story in Sonic games. I just want a fun, competently designed game to play. Mania is giving me that in spades, but I'm hoping this delivers too. The boost games have always been fun, at the very least. 

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

So many people are upset about Shadow and Chaos being villains again... because they had character arcs that redeemed them.

But I think y'all are jumping the gun a bit.

Okay regarding this, I think we all pretty much can agree that there will be an explanation of some sort. But I see basically no possibility of there being a good, satisfying explanation that actually justifies this team-up, and not just because of this series' pattern of bad writing.

To start, I think the villains have to all be gathered together for the same reason, or it's going to be a clusterfuck. I don't think Forces has time to properly explore half a dozen villain motivations on top of everything else it needs to accomplish. We'll probably get a proper look at Eggman and Infinite's perspectives, and they could get lazy with Metal and just have him be Eggman's loyal mook (though I'd call that a poor use of the character), but that still leaves Chaos, Shadow, and Zavok, none of which have any reason to be working with Eggman of their own free will. Chaos has been pacified and seemingly ascended to the afterlife so it's strange that he's here at all. Shadow, since his own game, has been firmly on the side of good and has put his past behind him, so I don't see that being plausibly used as leverage. And Zavok has only been antagonistic with Eggman; Lost World had Eggman essentially enslaving the Zeti, and then the Zeti stealing his shit and trying to kill his home planet once they got free.

So the only way I see all these villains getting together on the same side is some kind of bullshit. Some contrivance that doesn't follow from the characters as we know them. It's most likely Infinite is responsible, and I'd guess he's pulling them from other times or dimensions where they're still evil, but whether it's that or brainwashing or doppelgangers or whatever, it's a cheat. It means that the characters we're fighting aren't the characters we know and care about. Even in the "best" case, where it's Infinite kidnapping them across time and space, how much time does the game have to actually properly explore and resolve the displaced characters' issues? Even if we're dealing with legitimately pissed-at-the-world Shadow and Chaos, how's their role in this game going to compare to when they each had an entire game to work through their stories? I can't imagine it not feeling cheap.