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Sonic Forces E3 Trailer "The Next Generations" *Huge Spoilers in OP

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I've never cared too much about story in Sonic games. I just want a fun, competently designed game to play. Mania is giving me that in spades, but I'm hoping this delivers too. The boost games have always been fun, at the very least. 

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Well It could work, but it would have to be like, the shadow that's there doesn't even know or care about sonic... well less than the normal one and that's saying something, and they come across normal shadow and try to fight him, and he rocks them and he's like yo "wtf" if they establish from the beginning weird shit is going on, sure. Or like he kidnapped rouge or omega or something. 

I still don't trust sega to do it well, but it could be cool

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3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

 

So the only way I see all these villains getting together on the same side is some kind of bullshit. Some contrivance that doesn't follow from the characters as we know them. It's most likely Infinite is responsible, and I'd guess he's pulling them from other times or dimensions where they're still evil, but whether it's that or brainwashing or doppelgangers or whatever, it's a cheat. It means that the characters we're fighting aren't the characters we know and care about. Even in the "best" case, where it's Infinite kidnapping them across time and space, how much time does the game have to actually properly explore and resolve the displaced characters' issues? Even if we're dealing with legitimately pissed-at-the-world Shadow and Chaos, how's their role in this game going to compare to when they each had an entire game to work through their stories? I can't imagine it not feeling cheap.

 This is my main concern. I am excited to see Shadow finally having his time in the limelight after Sonic 06 as well as Chaos who I grew up with in my very first Sonic game ever experienced, but if these characters are just clones of the characters we once knew and love, then it'd be no different than Shadow having been revealed to be an Android rather than the real thing. It'll come off as cheap and will make the experience pointless if we're not even seeing a return of the actual characters. Hopefully they're the real thing because it'd be ironic if Shadow and Metal Sonic are clones of their original self (Metal Sonic especially).

Please don't screw this up Sega.

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12 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Okay regarding this, I think we all pretty much can agree that there will be an explanation of some sort. But I see basically no possibility of there being a good, satisfying explanation that actually justifies this team-up, and not just because of this series' pattern of bad writing.

I swear I could have saved myself a heap of trouble if this was the starting point people sprung to in the aftermath of that E3 trailer.

 

Anyway, on the issue of Chaos, Sonic Battle did show that he did stick around following the events of Adventure, and like everyone else in the game, wasn't shy about throwing punches with little to no justification for doing so. Even if you consider Battle to be of questionable canon status, it at the very least entertains the idea that Sonic Team has considered Chaos's place in the franchise. They have always been able to bring him back, just like they did in Battle.

Chaos was said to appear in times of great distress and I think Eggman winning would qualify as such. As for his mental well being, we do know him as the god of destruction for a reason. If you give him a grudge to bear, or an axe to grind, we know what will happen. We've already seen that he doesn't do the best job of keeping his rage in check. He doesn't have to be on Eggman's team anymore than "Lets piss him off and then run away while he devastates South Island". Perfect Chaos is an indiscriminate killing machine. All you would really have to do is locate Chaos someplace juicy, throw some emeralds at it, kick some Chao and then ride out the resulting  tsunami in your personal doomsday bunker. Boom, Eggman's forces get to move in and establish a base. Lure Chaos someplace else, rinse, repeat.

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4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

As for his mental well being, we do know him as the god of destruction for a reason. If you give him a grudge to bear, or an axe to grind, we know what will happen. We've already seen that he doesn't do the best job of keeping his rage in check. He doesn't have to be on Eggman's team anymore than "Lets piss him off and then run away while he devastates South Island". Perfect Chaos is an indiscriminate killing machine. All you would really have to do is locate Chaos someplace juicy, throw some emeralds at it, kick some Chao and then ride out the resulting  tsunami in your personal doomsday bunker. Boom, Eggman's forces get to move in and establish a base. Lure Chaos someplace else, rinse, repeat.

This is such a terrible interpretation of his character. Chaos is not just some short tempered idiot, he basically watched his family get trampled to death then spent a thousand odd years locked up without being given a chance to move on from it. If Eggman started kicking around chao in front of him that would only serve to get Chaos on his ass specifically.

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I didn't mean to diminish the reason for his rage, but what I was getting at is that it is something that can be replicated.

Chaos bore witness to the Echidna clans greed, and watched them trample the very things he was charged to protect. He went on a murderous rampage, got locked away for 1000 years, held that grudge, and then continued the killing spree on the other side.

FF to today. We have a mad tyrant with enough greed to make Cheif Pac blush. All you need is to expose Chaos to some more personal loss and you've got the full equation that drove him mad in the first place. Eggman doesn't have to have any control over Chaos per se. He can just help push his anger along in opportune places. Kinda like letting the Hulk loose in the middle of a city. Particularly so if we are dealing Perfect Chaos. It doesn't matter who Chaos is mad at. Tidal Waves don't discriminate friend from foe.

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That's actually not a bad idea. Actually, Eggman's world destruction injuring many Chao in the process and confidence in Infinite's powers to restrain Chaos would allow him to provoke Chaos and preclude another rebellion like what happened near the end of SA1 which can serve as an interesting plot point. The only issue is that it may place too much focus on Chaos when he's only depicted as one of Eggman's henchman. However, this is a far better idea than anything Sega can come up with IMO.

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I apologize for double posting, but I'm just going to come right out and say it. The boost gameplay in Forces has me somewhat disappointed because it's akin to Sonic Colors where you're forced to rely on wisp capsules rather than rings which are more plentiful. Rings are practically everywhere which gives the player an option as to whether or not they want to use the boost in a strategic manner to blaze through specific platforming sections or take it slower to get a feel for the stage. Generations and Unleashed style gameplay gives the user that option and being able to actually work your way up to using the boost tactically in platforming sections is highly rewarding and great incentive to replay stages.

 

My concern however is that wisp capsules are not plentiful and the fact that you're reliant on wisps tells us this: Sega is making that decision of boosting for us. When we're given the wisps, Sega wants us to blaze through confined, linear areas presented in Forces and whenever they deprive us of the wisp, they're depriving us from the boost, so we're forced to sit through slow platforming sections instead of actually using the boost gameplay to enhance the platforming experience the way Unleashed and especially Generations had done. There is very little reward because you're not given the option to even use the boost in a way that allows you to master the stage like the Classic Sonic games where you're rewarded with speed by knowing the stage in itself. Instead, you're forced to drag through slower, generic platforming segments which almost any player can do unless the controls are absolute shit. The boost should not be a limitation, we should have the freedom to boost whenever we please and accept the potential consequences by doing so instead of slugging through the same level of platforming as everybody else.

 

I'm still excited for the game, but seeing that they're regressing to Colors more in terms of Boost Gameplay instead of building upon how Generations employed the boost is very disappointing. That's not to say that Colors didn't do great because I enjoyed the game, it's just that this feels like a regression for Sonic and deviates from what made Sonic so great in the first place.

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12 hours ago, Cornelius Fudge said:

I'm still excited for the game, but seeing that they're regressing to Colors more in terms of Boost Gameplay instead of building upon how Generations employed the boost is very disappointing.

I feel the same way about a lot of that stuff, but there are quite a few holes left to fill in that could cover a good bit of those issues. A reintroduction of the level up system in Unleashed, adding to Sonic's top speed and the size/duration of his boost meter would go a long way to correcting that when-to-boost handholding by making Sonic cover more ground with less, and having access to boost by stockpiling it from areas that don't require it. Generations modifiers would work to the same effect. A trinket that grants Sonic unlimited boost or one that allows him to stockpile more than 100% would work in a similar way to Unleashed level up system and provide the additional flavor challenge for those who want it. Lost World and Gens introduced pocket items that could be whipped out and used whenever. While those were usually reserved for shields, skateboards and special wisps, who's to say you couldn't pack an extra bundle of white wisps to bring along to a stage?

Furthermore, while rings are out as an energy source for the boost, there may be a few more ways too earn that back. The trick system may return and may still provide bonus boost energy. City Heights is a pitifully short stage for Modern Sonic, so there is still hope that there are some basic boost earning mechanics that we may just not have seen yet.

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It's sort of just been established that Silver screws about in the past for no reason other than why the fuck not. I'm not really expecting any kind of explanation for him being there in Forces since he doesn't seem to be a particularly important character this time around.

 

As for how well the reformed characters will be handled in Forces. Well I ain't gonna hold my breath for a second that it'll be particularly amazing but I'm not gonna rush to any conclusions either, context is key after all.

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12 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I feel the same way about a lot of that stuff, but there are quite a few holes left to fill in that could cover a good bit of those issues. A reintroduction of the level up system in Unleashed, adding to Sonic's top speed and the size/duration of his boost meter would go a long way to correcting that when-to-boost handholding by making Sonic cover more ground with less, and having access to boost by stockpiling it from areas that don't require it. Generations modifiers would work to the same effect. A trinket that grants Sonic unlimited boost or one that allows him to stockpile more than 100% would work in a similar way to Unleashed level up system and provide the additional flavor challenge for those who want it. Lost World and Gens introduced pocket items that could be whipped out and used whenever. While those were usually reserved for shields, skateboards and special wisps, who's to say you couldn't pack an extra bundle of white wisps to bring along to a stage?

Furthermore, while rings are out as an energy source for the boost, there may be a few more ways too earn that back. The trick system may return and may still provide bonus boost energy. City Heights is a pitifully short stage for Modern Sonic, so there is still hope that there are some basic boost earning mechanics that we may just not have seen yet.

I can't see having much trouble keeping the gauge filled in this game. You get energy from badniks too, so it's not quite as limited as Colours was. I know some enemies had White Wisps in that game, but this time around it seems to be all of them, so.

That said, I would love see to Generations' Skills system come back, and it would definitely address stuff like that, as well as anyone who feels Sonic's running speed here is too slow, etc. I'd be excited to see what really weird Skill ideas they could introduce too, like that one Classic had that could turn enemies into Rings for a while.

Speaking of Wisps in enemies, I hope the final game has an animation for that like Colours did, seems like an odd thing to leave out when it's (I assume) pretty simple to do. Plus, well...I'll be honest, I was hoping creatures popping out of badniks was going to be a thing in the modern games again after LW and I'm really disappointed to see that's not the case? Sure, it was a small detail, but it was an iconic aspect of the franchise that (at roughly the exact same time as a lot of the classic concepts and mechanics) they threw it out it post-SA2 and I...genuinely don't understand why they're still leaving it behind. It was weird as hell that they left it out of Generations too--if it was exclusive to Classic that'd also be weird but at least it'd be there.

On a similar note I also prefer the badnik "bop" sound to generic smashing + explosion sounds but whatever

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6 hours ago, Celestia said:

I can't see having much trouble keeping the gauge filled in this game. You get energy from badniks too, so it's not quite as limited as Colours was. I know some enemies had White Wisps in that game, but this time around it seems to be all of them, so.

That said, I would love see to Generations' Skills system come back, and it would definitely address stuff like that, as well as anyone who feels Sonic's running speed here is too slow, etc. I'd be excited to see what really weird Skill ideas they could introduce too, like that one Classic had that could turn enemies into Rings for a while.

Speaking of Wisps in enemies, I hope the final game has an animation for that like Colours did, seems like an odd thing to leave out when it's (I assume) pretty simple to do. Plus, well...I'll be honest, I was hoping creatures popping out of badniks was going to be a thing in the modern games again after LW and I'm really disappointed to see that's not the case? Sure, it was a small detail, but it was an iconic aspect of the franchise that (at roughly the exact same time as a lot of the classic concepts and mechanics) they threw it out it post-SA2 and I...genuinely don't understand why they're still leaving it behind. It was weird as hell that they left it out of Generations too--if it was exclusive to Classic that'd also be weird but at least it'd be there.

On a similar note I also prefer the badnik "bop" sound to generic smashing + explosion sounds but whatever

Limiting the boost at ALL seems kinda counter intuitive to modern sonic's level design considering that you're usually encouraged to use it at almost every single opportunity you can find to speed through sections and enemies. But then again, considering that the 2D sections look really slow paced and colors-esque you probably won't even be able to use it as much as anyways. 

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Limiting the boost to some extent isn't necessarily the problem. I agree with @Diogenes that it is a valid design choice and that's contingent upon how it is utilized. If that limitation was used to enhance the boost formula by evaluating when to use it which can lead to different pathways and results, then it'd be completely valid and understandable. However, Colors never really did that. Their boost limitation was so forced that they implemented game design around it, so you're literally forced to boost when they want you to which is generally in linear, narrow spaces like what was shown in Forces and when they don't want you to boost, you have to drag yourself through slower platforming. The way they implemented the boost thus far in Force's design gives the impression that they cannot create gameplay that complements the boost formula at its core since there is a large disconnection between the 3D and 2D sections. If they want to appeal to Modern Sonic fans who love going fast, why implement such a huge limitation on the players? That honestly seems counter-intuitive. It certainly doesn't help that they followed the misconception that in order to make boosting seem more apparent and tempting that they have to design linear and narrow passages around it instead of letting our own creativity decide where boosting is feasible. Players are smart and we don't need Sega making that decision for us.

I'm still going to like the game regardless. I liked Colors (it's a solid game), but hopefully their gameplay design choices were made because it was the first level because from what I can tell thus far, it seems like they're regressing instead of improving upon the boost formula.

 

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1 hour ago, Speedi said:

Limiting the boost at ALL seems kinda counter intuitive to modern sonic's level design considering that you're usually encouraged to use it at almost every single opportunity you can find to speed through sections and enemies. But then again, considering that the 2D sections look really slow paced and colors-esque you probably won't even be able to use it as much as anyways. 

A fair point. I'm not too bothered about it, but admittedly I do wish they handled it the way Dimps did with Rush. That is, even if it's not really difficult to do so, you do need to pay more attention to keeping the gauge filled even though there are plenty of ways of filling it. Basically, having a few methods to fill the gauge isn't necessarily a problem in itself, but the fact that it drains very slowly is an issue imo.

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1 hour ago, Cornelius Fudge said:

Limiting the boost to some extent isn't necessarily the problem. I agree with @Diogenes that it is a valid design choice and that's contingent upon how it is utilized. If that limitation was used to enhance the boost formula by evaluating when to use it which can lead to different pathways and results, then it'd be completely valid and understandable. However, Colors never really did that. Their boost limitation was so forced that they implemented game design around it, so you're literally forced to boost when they want you to which is generally in linear, narrow spaces like what was shown in Forces and when they don't want you to boost, you have to drag yourself through slower platforming. The way they implemented the boost thus far in Force's design gives the impression that they cannot create gameplay that complements the boost formula at its core since there is a large disconnection between the 3D and 2D sections. If they want to appeal to Modern Sonic fans who love going fast, why implement such a huge limitation on the players? That honestly seems counter-intuitive. It certainly doesn't help that they followed the misconception that in order to make boosting seem more apparent and tempting that they have to design linear and narrow passages around it instead of letting our own creativity decide where boosting is feasible. Players are smart and we don't need Sega making that decision for us.

I'm still going to like the game regardless. I liked Colors (it's a solid game), but hopefully their gameplay design choices were made because it was the first level because from what I can tell thus far, it seems like they're regressing instead of improving upon the boost formula.

 

Yeah, one of the main problems with limiting the boost is that in the games where it is limited the level design is so blocky and linear that you don't even have a chance to use the boost in fun ways to traverse the levels. The 2D sections in Modern Sonic games work the best imo when they play like Sonic Rush levels. Generations is easily the best in the trilogy for the simple fact that it manages to keep the pace at a steady rate even while switching perspectives. If Forces manages to does this while limiting the boost in a way that it makes you think about how you use it instead of just limiting it for the sake of slowing down the overall speed of the game then I will be pleasantly surprised.

 

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I've seen a fair few previews from different media outlets based on the E3 demo showing up on my news feed lately. Wonder if it would be worthwhile gathering them up and seeing what the general overall consensus on the game is with the gaming media vs the fans and the gaming public.

Not a positive one to start, but this one from Eurogamer showed up just now on my feed. They do praise Puyo Tetris tho and make mention of Mania to compare the two Sonic projects for the year...which doesn't seem fair as while they are both Sonic they are apples to oranges when compared fairly.

http://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2017-07-06-maybe-its-time-for-us-to-leave-sonic-teams-take-on-its-series-behind

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Sonic Forces and Sonic Mania are going to be playable at SDCC 2017 later this month.

According to the stream we will see more of the Forces soundtrack and maybe a sneak peek at a cutscene from Sonic Forces. Pre-orders will be up soon for Sonic Forces and a release date should be announced this Fall. Posters from E3 2017 will be at SDCC 2017, so it looks like SDCC will be a big time for Sonic news this year just like last years.

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15 hours ago, Tenko said:

I've seen a fair few previews from different media outlets based on the E3 demo showing up on my news feed lately. Wonder if it would be worthwhile gathering them up and seeing what the general overall consensus on the game is with the gaming media vs the fans and the gaming public.

Not a positive one to start, but this one from Eurogamer showed up just now on my feed. They do praise Puyo Tetris tho and make mention of Mania to compare the two Sonic projects for the year...which doesn't seem fair as while they are both Sonic they are apples to oranges when compared fairly.

http://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2017-07-06-maybe-its-time-for-us-to-leave-sonic-teams-take-on-its-series-behind

Didn't they hear about Iizuka saying the reception of Mania will determine the future of Sonic? I feel like they're being a bit too pessimistic when we've only seen one level of the game for each character.  

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Mmm.

We've seen Classic's GHZ as well as boss, the Avatar's GHZ and Park Avenue, and Modern Sonic's City Heights. That's 4, arguably 5 levels. It's far from the sampling we've received from Sonic Mania, but we were able to get a good understanding of what Mania was going to be like just by seeing it's GHZ and Studiopolis Zone on day one, and that's not taking the pedigree of the devs into consideration.

And going back 7-8 years, we were able to pin down what Sonic 4's issues were going to be right from the first three seconds teased. Compare that to the amount of gameplay we've seen from Forces so far, I think we have enough to go on to get a taste of what's coming. 

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42 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Mmm.

We've seen Classic's GHZ as well as boss, the Avatar's GHZ and Park Avenue, and Modern Sonic's City Heights. That's 4, arguably 5 levels. It's far from the sampling we've received from Sonic Mania, but we were able to get a good understanding of what Mania was going to be like just by seeing it's GHZ and Studiopolis Zone on day one, and that's not taking the pedigree of the devs into consideration.

And going back 7-8 years, we were able to pin down what Sonic 4's issues were going to be right from the first three seconds teased. Compare that to the amount of gameplay we've seen from Forces so far, I think we have enough to go on to get a taste of what's coming. 

City Heights and Park Avenue are the exact same places.

Jeez they need to show us new locations. The only new place in this game so far was the city.

If they can't entertain us with the level design they could at least make some new pretty locations.

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