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Sonic Forces Impressions

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7 minutes ago, Gabz Girl said:

Ohhhhh boy! Guess you won't spill the rumour beans until after Forces is released? 

It's not anything that's in Forces, so it wouldn't spoil the game if I said it, the issue is more of respect nature.

Like I know a ton of stuff about ASRT that even the data miners have not found, but I've not ever told anyone the stuff I know because I said I wouldn't for a good number of years.

This one I had no such restriction on what I was told so in theory I could do but probably won't go into major detail because it would be a kinda bad thing to do.

Though when people are saying 'something must have happened, they're not far off.'

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1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm certainly going to buy it. I'm not opposed to better level design, of course, but I'm a fairly simple person when it comes to Sonic. 

If it feels good in my hands then I'll enjoy it alright. Even better if it has a narrative I like.   

This is how I currently feel about the game, word for word. A Sonic game doesn't have to check a lot of boxes for me to want to play it.

There's nothing wrong with that, mind you-- it's just my two cents.

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1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

It's not anything that's in Forces, so it wouldn't spoil the game if I said it, the issue is more of respect nature.

Like I know a ton of stuff about ASRT that even the data miners have not found, but I've not ever told anyone the stuff I know because I said I wouldn't for a good number of years.

This one I had no such restriction on what I was told so in theory I could do but probably won't go into major detail because it would be a kinda bad thing to do.

Though when people are saying 'something must have happened, they're not far off.'

How absolutely, embarrassingly horrid. Do you know if what was abandoned was salvageable?

Or if this was a squash job by the higher-ups, let's speculate: do you think a dismal reception would make the original plan more palatable to Sega?

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1 hour ago, SonicWind said:

This is how I currently feel about the game, word for word. A Sonic game doesn't have to check a lot of boxes for me to want to play it.

There's nothing wrong with that, mind you-- it's just my two cents.

Although, I do wish to clarify that my personal stake in all this doesn't at all count as an excuse for whatever issues with level design the game does have. I'm just saying it's... not as big a deal for someone who plays the way that I do. 

Sometimes I did kind of just find myself wanting to hold down X and blast through shit when I was playing Generations. Granted a lot of those moments were when I was in a 2D section. I remember really loving that one really open part of the City Escape level where I was platforming because I could move about in a 3D environment when I did it as opposed to some of the more "stop and jump on blocks in a 2D space" moments the game had.

I guess I just really want another full 3D game again. Hopefully Iizuka sees that as a thing that'll "make sense" going forward... 

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I think a lot of people's opinion on the game can, in fact, hinge on the way they actually play it. I mean, I never, ever use the roll in the classic games, because I don't care, yet people go on and on about how that move and it's physics are the literal most important aspect of any Sonic game to ever be released. Meanwhile, I've seen people say that Adventure 1's spindash-jumping is an overpowered move that cheapens the game and that SA2 did well to lessen it, even though I think that thing did more for SA1's movement and freedom than anything else in the series.

Forces, if anything, is looking to appeal to people who don't replay games that often. It figures, if it just takes long enough to play through once, by having nearly 50 (or more?) compact normal levels, or missions or whatever, that it doesn't need replayable level design. After all, they're never going to replay it to take the other paths, so why make any? But honestly, even if that sounds like a middle finger to fans, I kinda get it. I don't play Generations that often, or Colors, or even the Classic games. The only Sonic game I think I've 100% completed more than once is SA1, and even then it wasn't by trying to take a different path through the levels, just taking the one I like best faster. I don't take all that many alternate routes. I haven't even seen the bowling pins in Twinkle Park since I realized you can shortcut from the end of the rollercoaster to the pool. Everything I do in Sonic is basically just cutting out as much of the level as I can to get a faster time, and Forces is looking like it's got some level of awareness of that with Sonic's boost and the avatar's gadgets. And mechanically...well, it's Sonic Generations plus one, and there's not a ton for me to dislike about that, so the game seems okay. The music and visuals being great, and the plot trying to actually place weight on itself for once is just a bonus. I can work with slightly uninteresting level design if the rest of the game is trying hard enough to be cool, and what I gather from pretty much everything else about it is that it's at least trying some amount.

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I actually go back to Generations a lot. However, it's only really so I can scratch my Sonic itch super quickly and then turn it off. It's the absolute perfect game for that. Sometimes I'll even pretend there's a reason he's running through Green Hill Zone again for extra sympathy points. 

Other games like Adventure 1, Adventure 2 , Heroes, and Unleashed I probably don't get back to AS often despite loving them far more than Generations because  I'm lazy and plugging in the Wii or PS2 is really hard  when I go back to them, I often do it so that I can play the whole thing over again. I look at those games as more of a full-on experience and the factors that provide that feeling vary from game to game.

Forces could very well be a game that I both go back to a lot for a quick Sonic fix or play through in it's entirety multiple times literally just by being something I turn on to zoom through levels for 2 minutes or by being something that has a fun and engaging narrative that makes me want to re-experience playing through the story again. It could do this all without even being a game I thought was objectively one of the best ones too.

Opinions on how much value I put in a game wholly depends on how much I care about the particular elements they decided to pay attention to and what I'm in the mood to do at the time. 

This mental system of mine probably wouldn't be so all over the place if all Sonic games could just be good at everything they tried to do but that can't happen. Let's not be greedy here. Expecting everything in the game to be good? Clearly that's bullshit. It's definitely more efficient that somebody be pissed off about something in the game because that makes people like us more right? Yeah, of course that's right.

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I'm just exhausted. If I weren't exhausted, I'd be pissed. I guess I still am, a little. If this game turns out the way it's looking, then just... ugh god they better have a real gem to make up for it in another year or so. Either that or just... clear house. There's no excuse this time. Seriously, after twenty fucking years, Sonic Team's apparent incapability to nail what makes a great Sonic game is more damning than any Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic 06 could ever be. 

In fact, who knows what might happen if Forces is mediocre. I picture a million kids walking into GameStop with their parents this holiday season and taking a look at Sonic Forces thanks to its striking cover. Each time, their parents ask the clerk, "Is this any good?"

The clerk replies, "Eh, it's not that great, you'd be better off with Super Lucky's Tale/Knack 2/Mario Odyssey." Depending on the system the kid plays. 

Maybe the character creator will save this from happening too often, but my point is that Sonic is far from the only alternative to Mario these days. This isn't 2011 anymore. 3D platformers are back in the game, and the way it's looking, Sonic needs to shape the hell up. 

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Well, not everything is doom and gloom, I guess.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/comments/72fvy7/the_sonic_forces_egx_impressions_mega_thread/?st=J813BC48&sh=3f01d2bb
Sonic Forces EGX Impressions 

(Guess what? Majority of negatives are from the Switch version! Not shocked tbh.) 

But look at this: 
" Special note: It has come to my attention that the build present at EGX was the E3 build with the Tag Team level enabled. I will attach a link with an official source as soon as the user who informed me procures it." 
  
Hmm, I hope this guy ain't lying, that would mean that the demo so far is from was made on April/June. Meaning that some things could have been changed and fixed.

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20 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

In fact, who knows what might happen if Forces is mediocre. I picture a million kids walking into GameStop with their parents this holiday season and taking a look at Sonic Forces thanks to its striking cover. Each time, their parents ask the clerk, "Is this any good?"

To be fair, I can easily see that being all that is necessary. This game can succeed on its own merits by targeting those kids and providing a fun experience w/ a character creator. The biggest shortfalls that Forces has come from the expectations that series veterans have on it. I seriously doubt that the failure to push the boost formula envelope or the overabundance of 2D are really gonna be sticking points for the tykes who find this sucker under the Christmas tree.

Before someone starts crying and flying the "games for kids don't have to suck" banner, I've seen enough of Forces to think that it can appeal to that market. My gripes about this looking like the worst of Colors and the worst of Unleashed don't really apply to someone who probably wont care about that in the long run.

 

I still find it utterly astounding that Sonic Team could wait this long, and the first product they fire off is essentially a slap in the face to the fanbase. It doesn't even look like they tried to build a better game/formula. They just found a new gimmick and ran with it.

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9 hours ago, Mayor D said:

I... kinda know the answer to this but... found out some gossip at EGX but... not sure at the moment how I should say it, if it all.

It's not anything like "They were making Gens 2" (though they probably were) and switched it. 

It's more the plan was gonna be one thing, then ended up being another.

...It's not that the Avatar was planned to be Boom Sonic, is it?

Since you don't want to say, I wouldn't normally ask, but given that people have been speculating about this subject for a while then I wondered if what you heard might confirm or even deconfirm it.

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6 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

To be fair, I can easily see that being all that is necessary. This game can succeed on its own merits by targeting those kids and providing a fun experience w/ a character creator. The biggest shortfalls that Forces has come from the expectations that series veterans have on it. I seriously doubt that the failure to push the boost formula envelope or the overabundance of 2D are really gonna be sticking points for the tykes who find this sucker under the Christmas tree.

Before someone starts crying and flying the "games for kids don't have to suck" banner, I've seen enough of Forces to think that it can appeal to that market. My gripes about this looking like the worst of Colors and the worst of Unleashed don't really apply to someone who probably wont care about that in the long run.

 

I still find it utterly astounding that Sonic Team could wait this long, and the first product they fire off is essentially a slap in the face to the fanbase. It doesn't even look like they tried to build a better game/formula. They just found a new gimmick and ran with it.

So basically, they just did what they've always been doing since 1998?

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9 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So basically, they just did what they've always been doing since 1998?

I mean, if you start thinking about it, Sonic doesn't really have an identity beyond "high-speed platforming".

Strictly console-nonspinoff-wise, Sonic went from a sidescrolling physics-based platformer to a 3D semi-openish high-speed platforming with tacked on gameplay styles that are mediocre at best horrible at worst to a boost gotta go fast platforming that is criticized for being a linear hallway type of gameplay with a brief period where he went full on Super Mario Galaxy that we never talk about.

And don't get me started on the on-rails games and the hoverboard racing games. 

The common denominator to all of the above is "high speed" and "platforming" barring the hoverboard games, but if you take that away Sonic has been experimenting ever since Sonic 3 and Knuckles. 

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38 minutes ago, Hard-Boiled Wisp said:

I mean, if you start thinking about it, Sonic doesn't really have an identity beyond "high-speed platforming".

Strictly console-nonspinoff-wise, Sonic went from a sidescrolling physics-based platformer to a 3D semi-openish high-speed platforming with tacked on gameplay styles that are mediocre at best horrible at worst to a boost gotta go fast platforming that is criticized for being a linear hallway type of gameplay with a brief period where he went full on Super Mario Galaxy that we never talk about.

And don't get me started on the on-rails games and the hoverboard racing games. 

The common denominator to all of the above is "high speed" and "platforming" barring the hoverboard games, but if you take that away Sonic has been experimenting ever since Sonic 3 and Knuckles. 

That to me is one of the biggest shortcomings of 3D Sonic. They never really established a foundation for the games to work off of with a 3D formula that could work on it's own. They were always so concerned with putting in extra gameplay styles to pad out the game length. Because of that, gameplay styles like Sonic Stages in Adventure never got the proper development time they needed. That combined with how inconsistent his 3D career was from 2003 - 2007.

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1 minute ago, Straw Hat said:

That to me is one of the biggest shortcomings of 3D Sonic. They never really established a foundation for the games to work off of with a 3D formula that could work on it's own. They were always so concerned with putting in extra gameplay styles to pad out the game length. Because of that, gameplay styles like Sonic Stages in Adventure never got the proper development time they needed. That combined with how inconsistent his 3D career was from 2003 - 2007.

The problem is that while Sonic's roots are in 2D, Sonic the Hedgehog has been more of a 3D adventure-ish series than a 2D sidescroller, considering mainline games the only 2D sidescroller platformers were Sonic 1-2-3-K. Until Mania Sonic really had more 3D games than pure platformers like the classics. 

I am not counting the Advance series because they feel a mishmash of 3D and 2D Sonic games.  

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23 minutes ago, Hard-Boiled Wisp said:

The problem is that while Sonic's roots are in 2D, Sonic the Hedgehog has been more of a 3D adventure-ish series than a 2D sidescroller, considering mainline games the only 2D sidescroller platformers were Sonic 1-2-3-K. Until Mania Sonic really had more 3D games than pure platformers like the classics. 

I am not counting the Advance series because they feel a mishmash of 3D and 2D Sonic games.  

True. But they weren't really focused on how they could translate the momentum based physics of the Classics into 3D, which was where most of the depth of Sonic's gameplay came from. That's part of why the design didn't reflect the Classics as well as they could. But after SA1 they should have stuck with the more semi-open design Adventure brought and put more focus into how to apply the momentum based physics to it. But they steered further and further away from that concept with how much experimentation and gimmicks they brought to the table. It didn't give any room for 3D Sonic to grow.

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8 hours ago, Joseph Henry said:But look at this: 

" Special note: It has come to my attention that the build present at EGX was the E3 build with the Tag Team level enabled. I will attach a link with an official source as soon as the user who informed me procures it." 
 

That is interesting if true.

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6 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So basically, they just did what they've always been doing since 1998?

Hmm, I wouldn't go that far.

Sonic Team has almost always had some level self-awareness to their shortcomings. In fact, it was the knee-jerk over-reaction to many of them that lead to some of the worst decisions within the development bubble.

For Forces, it almost seems like Sonic Team hasn't made any attempt to do anything "___ but better". Everyone complains about the abundance of 2D in Colors, and we see nothing but 2D in Forces so far. The biggest knock on the boost formula is the lack of expanse and overuse of automation and hallways... guess what Forces has shown us so far. Its like they made no attempt to please fans outside of including some underutilized characters in the story.

 

On another note, something else just hit me. In the footage of Episode Shadow, we see him boosting with reckless abandon. No white wisps necessary.

Is Shadow so OP now that he can have unlimited boost? I wonder if that will carry over to the modern Sonic re-skin levels.

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whenever i log on i expect some brand new info and then i just come and im just like.... ugh. why did sega do this to me. release me to the wild already plz/

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13 hours ago, PKGaming said:

I noticed that quite a few people on the site who're trashing Forces also just hate Boost gameplay in general. But I never hated Boost, in fact, Generations is probably my favorite 3D Sonic game. I recently went back and played a few Modern stages after a few years, and it was still really fun just as I remembered it. And on an extreme surface level, Forces pretty much looks like a Generations 2, and yet, I'm continually unimpressed and disappointed with what I see. I really do think it has everything to do with level design. It looks like a major step back from what you see in Generations. It actually reminds me more of Colors. I also went back and played a bit of Colors recently, and after the first world, I was kinda done with it. Forces just seems to be everything I disliked in Colors. Super linear and practically worthless 3D sections and 2D platforming sections that lack flow and are too blocky and platform heavy. And then there's Classic Sonic who, somehow, looks like he controls even less like true Genesis/Mega Drive Sonic than he did in Generations. All those boost pads and hidden bumpers placed about that try and poorly emulate Classic Sonic physics because the engine doesn't work really hurts my soul... 

Yes, on an extreme surface level, it looks like Generations. But it's really not. It's a huge step back, IMO. I mean, I'm still gonna buy it and maybe the final product is better than what we've seen. But honestly, when has a mainline Sonic game ever EVER looked disappointing in previous but ended up being better than we thought? Never. Usually it's the exact opposite where the game looks promising, but when you actually play it, the disappointment happens. 

Ya know. If the game feels more like Colors vs Unleashed or Generations. I may skip this game. I hated colors. My least favorite BOOOST game. The platforming was blocky as crap. Just the entire game felt blah to me.

Now that I think about it. When has sonic really no had the infamous "Run forward, Hallways" gameplay in 3D? Besides the terrible ShTh, every game since SA (cube or Dreamcast) He's had a similar style. Run forward. Jump and platform over this. Run forward somemore in on this single path. Take a small detour to pick this item up. Run forward FTW. Most first level were simple. With Unleashed and SA2 having the most challenging final levels. None of his levels were long besides the infamous EggManLand and maybe Generations Planet wisp.

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11 minutes ago, Eternal EX said:

Ya know. If the game feels more like Colors vs Unleashed or Generations. I may skip this game. I hated colors. My least favorite BOOOST game. The platforming was blocky as crap. Just the entire game felt blah to me.

Now that I think about it. When has sonic really no had the infamous "Run forward, Hallways" gameplay in 3D? Besides the terrible ShTh, every game since SA (cube or Dreamcast) He's had a similar style. Run forward. Jump and platform over this. Run forward somemore in on this single path. Take a small detour to pick this item up. Run forward FTW. Most first level were simple. With Unleashed and SA2 having the most challenging final levels. None of his levels were long besides the infamous EggManLand and maybe Generations Planet wisp.

Yeah, running forward through hallways is definitely present in most 3D Sonics, and Generations definitely has it. But in Generations, even though you're running through hallways in 3D, they're WIDE hallways with different options to go about them, like in Modern Sky Sanctuary for example. You could take the left side, the right side, even below, and each path leads to either different rewards or to a different part of the stage. For the most part, you're boosting forward at high-speed, but you're given more room and more options as a result. This is something I don't ever recall in Colors and am not seeing in Forces.

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3 hours ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Another impressions article. This time from GameReactor.

https://www.gamereactor.eu/previews/595673/Sonic+Forces+-+TGS+Impressions/?page=1

Basically, they said it looks ambitious, they need to balance the 3 characters, and they haven't been so excited for a 3D Sonic since Adventure.

Oh, and  they think Casino Forest is inspired by Sonic Spinball, lol.

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