Sonic Forces Impressions

[Sonikko]

The fun part is that those issues are so obvious that I don't even slow footage down lol.

[Milo]

21 hours ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Uhh. I think I posted one of those previews earlier.

Yeah, the AOTF one. Had to dig some pages back in the topic to find it.

21 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Same

I don't want any game, to fail really. Failure never really breeds the magical results people want, especially with sega. So It makes me kinda hopefuly when i see good previews. Because it makes me think this game might be kinda ok. 

Neither does success, if people aren't happy with the game in question. If anything, the success of an unpopular product only ensures those magical results people want won't even get the chance to breed. Success of a game would be telling the creators responsible for the product that they're on the right track and they don't need to make any changes to improve, even if for many that isn't the case. Failure of a game at least opens the possibility that the creators will either learn from their mistakes and do a much better product next time, or hand the rights to someone else who knows what they're doing and let them take a crack at the next product (whether it be now or a few years down the line).

I see no point in supporting a game --or any product, really-- I'm interested in (or would normally be interested in) if it looks like it's doing a bad job at whatever goal it's supposed to accomplish. If Forces looked like it was an actual improvement on the previous Boost games, had a high amount of polish poured into it to match, and showed Sonic Team had actually learned to avoid away from several critical poor design decisions; I would have no qualms about it performing well. But for me, Forces looks the opposite--it's a clear downgrade from past Boost titles, has a heaping lack of polish and cut corners (startlingly so for a game touted as in development for four years), and embraces some of the worst decision decisions in the series, smashed together into one package. And if Forces performance results in another game like it, that would, to me, be unfortunate--not unfortunate as in incorrect or immoral, but unfortunate as in not good for the future of the games. I'd rather people send a message to Sega about Forces (and to be blunt, a message about Sonic Team in all fairness) that tells them "no thanks, rethink and start over," not a message that tells them "yes, more of this please." 

And while people (myself included) can complain or voice their disappointment about Forces all they want, I think it's pretty clear Sega/Sonic Team has a prolonged history of not taking in feedback in a meaningful manner, leaving only one option for people on the table to send a clear negative response. You vote with your wallet to either show your support or your lack of support. Not just for Forces as a game on its own, but what Forces represents and how it can be used as a foundation for the next game. That's not to say I would be actively rooting for the outcome in which Forces fails, or be gleeful if it does. But that does mean I hold no desire in seeing Forces be successful, and wouldn't view an outcome that saw the game's failure as anything of value being lost.

[Shadowlax]

10 minutes ago, Yeow said:

I see no point in supporting a game --or any product, really-- I'm interested in (or would normally be interested in) if it looks like it's doing a bad job at whatever goal it's supposed to accomplish. 

I never said you have to buy it, if the market decides its not worth buying at the end of the day that's on sega. 

There are people who hope games fail, and outside of rare occasions, I have never understood that mentality. Because companies usually don't react the way you want them to when things fail, you know improving. They just start getting rid of the shit related to thing that failed, like when sonic 06 happened. Or another example outside of sonic, when capcom didn't make fighting games for a long stretch of time. 

[Bobnik]

6 minutes ago, Yeow said:

I'd rather people send a message to Sega about Forces (and to be blunt, a message about Sonic Team in all fairness) that tells them "no thanks, rethink and start over," not a message that tells them "yes, more of this please." 

But isn't the "start over" mentality what got this franchise into the mud to begin with? IIRC since the death of Dreamcast this was the main complaint that they experimented too hard with the franchise without trying to improve on what worked and what didn't till Unleashed. Even then, the comments I remember the most since the announcement of Lost World was "why ditch something that worked for some experimental bullshit again?" I just don't find "start over" a good message either.

I think the best message should've been "there's a room for improvement, here's what we liked and what we didn't like" and not "start over, everything is bad". That's why we got Lost World and everything between Adventure and Unleashed.

[Milo]

6 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

But isn't the "start over" mentality what got this franchise into the mud to begin with? IIRC since the death of Dreamcast this was the main complaint that they experimented too hard with the franchise without trying to improve on what worked and what didn't till Unleashed. Even then, the comments I remember the most since the announcement of Lost World was "why ditch something that worked for some experimental bullshit again?" I just don't find "start over" a good message either.

I think the best message should've been "there's a room for improvement, here's what we liked and what we didn't like" and not "start over, everything is bad". That's why we got Lost World and everything between Adventure and Unleashed.

Hence why I phrased it as "rethink and start over." I'm not saying they should start from scratch (at least regarding the Boost 3D games, I wouldn't mind a new take for another traditional 3D Sonic game). I'm saying for them to re-assess what they did with Forces --especially in the vein of making changes to the original plan-- and use it as a starting point to then try again.

[Diogenes]

11 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Because companies usually don't react the way you want them to when things fail, you know improving. They just start getting rid of the shit related to thing that failed, like when sonic 06 happened.

I'm not entirely sure how '06 is an example of this, since (even if I still have major problems with it) Unleashed is a massively better game than '06 on all fronts. And sometimes shit just needs to be cut.

2 minutes ago, Bobnik said:

But isn't the "start over" mentality what got this franchise into the mud to begin with?

Not entirely. While I certainly wouldn't say the series has been entirely successful with its sudden changes, iteration hasn't been entirely kind to it either. You can trace a pretty clear line through SA, SA2, Heroes, ShtH, and '06, and see how the Adventure style rotted, even aside from what gimmicks were added. And I'd say we're already seeing that with the boost style, considering how Forces is turning out.

And y'know sometimes you're just so deep in the mud you've got to back up, pull yourself out, and go around, right? You keep trying to charge through, you're just digging your wheels in deeper.

[Red Hot Jack]

https://www.google.it/amp/www.smartworld.it/videogiochi/anteprima-sonic-forces.html/amp#ampshare=http://www.smartworld.it/videogiochi/anteprima-sonic-forces.html

 

More positive impressions from Milan Games Week, they said it was one of the best titles presented. And it also pokes fun at people who say Sonic was always bad.

[Korke]

22 hours ago, Yeow said:

Hence why I phrased it as "rethink and start over." I'm not saying they should start from scratch (at least regarding the Boost 3D games, I wouldn't mind a new take for another traditional 3D Sonic game). I'm saying for them to re-assess what they did with Forces --especially in the vein of making changes to the original plan-- and use it as a starting point to then try again.

I don't even know what to think anymore. Either success or failure, it feels like nothing will ever change. The heads in charge seem to be invulnerable and may never get replaced, no matter how bad the games will ever get.

[Shiny Gems]

4 hours ago, Jack the Rookie said:

https://www.google.it/amp/www.smartworld.it/videogiochi/anteprima-sonic-forces.html/amp#ampshare=http://www.smartworld.it/videogiochi/anteprima-sonic-forces.html

 

More positive impressions from Milan Games Week, they said it was one of the best titles presented. And it also pokes fun at people who say Sonic was always bad.

Oddly enough, some people on another forum I went to labeled this guy as a fanboy because of what he said and what he said about the Mario fans. I find that hard to believe.

[Graystripe2000]

52 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Oddly enough, some people on another forum I went to labeled this guy as a fanboy because of what he said and what he said about the Mario fans. I find that hard to believe.

Let me guess, Sonic Retro? SEGA Forums?

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Operationgamer17 said:

Let me guess, Sonic Retro? SEGA Forums?

Sega Forums, but why do you ask?

[The Deleter]

Quote

This brand new Sonic Forces does nothing but load all the peculiarities seen in the chapters of the Sega mascot, proposing a varied and multi-faceted adventure to the skeptics face (let's talk about you, dear, blind plumber's supporters).

This is the quote in question from the impression, specifically. It is google translated, though...

[Razule]

1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

This is the quote in question from the impression, specifically. It is google translated, though...

I mean.. French is close enough to English that I don't think it's very inaccurate. "Blind plumbers supporters" seems really specific.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

13 hours ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Sega Forums, but why do you ask?

There's a reason a lot of us have migrated here to get away from that place. 

[Badnik Mechanic]

21 hours ago, Operationgamer17 said:

Let me guess, Sonic Retro? SEGA Forums?

What does that have to do with it?

[Shiny Gems]

Here's another positive one.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurogamer.it%2Farticles%2F2017-10-10-sonic-forces-prova-anteprima&edit-text=

Here is the Google Translate translation.

Quote

Recently, we did not miss the chance to test the upcoming Sonic Forces , a new 3D chapter of Sonic that was announced on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the historic saga of blue horns born in 1991 on Sega Mega Drive.

Sonic The Hedgehog is the mascot strongly wanted by SEGA to create a platform that contained and bore the overwhelming power of Nintendo's charismatic Super Mario Bros. SEGA was big on the arcade but in the console war with the Kyoto house it served a strong icon that could rival the Italian plumber.

So came Sonic The Hedgehog in June 1991, first on Mega Drive and then on the 8-bit Master System and Game Gear consoles. And it was a great success that gave rise to numerous sequels and spin-offs of all kinds. Then came the 32-bit and 128-bit consoles, and after the unhappy Sonic R on Saturn, the real big transition to 3D came with Sonic Adventure for Dreamcast, a true masterpiece still honored today .

Although Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were great titles, with successive chapters like Sonic Heroes, Sonic and the Black Knight and especially with the unhappy Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Team missed the right path that had been taken in the Dreamcast. Sonic games, once remembered for the extreme speed and adrenaline sensation, were no longer so frantic and electrifying, ranging from dialogues, unattractive characters, mini-games, problem shooting and lots of stuff that made them lose interest in fans but above all to the average player.

With the 25th anniversary, however, SEGA has been determined to reverse this trend, first of all by burning Sonic Mania, a real blow to the nostalgic fans who propose a mix of old and new levels with the same graphics and animations of the first chapter for Mega Drive. But the goal was also to refine and relaunch the Sonic thread in 3D, which is why Sonic Forces were announced.

This title proposes a gameplay similar to that already seen in Sonic Generations (one of the most successful chapters most recently), thus offering a mix of classic setting in 2.5D like 16-bit console chapters, and modern 3D such as Sonic Colors, Unleashed or Heroes. In this way, fans of old days are satisfied and those who approach the series in their second decade.

In addition to these two game settings, Forces adds a third named Avatar. In the latter, the player controls, instead of Sonic, Tails, or one of his friends, a character customized to your liking from different animals available as a base model. Each of these templates comes with unique skills, adding depth and longevity to gameplay.

The demo version of Sonic Forces that we tested turned on PlayStation 4. The build allowed you to try the four game modes: Sonic Phase (the modern 3D), Phase Classic (that old-school in 2.5D), Avatar Stage which we talked about) and Team Phase (a two-player mode).

We've tested all four game modes available. The Sonic Phase offered us a long way to go mad at speed with the camera that followed us and wisely changed our angle depending on the situation and speed of the blue hippopotamus. During the unbridled speed races, as usual, Sonic can jump, roll and execute flying attacks called "homing", with which it blends directly with enemies using them as trampolines to move to the next and move between various remote platforms that otherwise it could not reach. The levels are dense with Dr. Eggman's robots and skirts that hinder our path and will make us lose the rings at every stroke right away.

In the Classic Phase, the demo proposed a boss fight with Dr. Eggman's machine, rather easy to overcome. In this mode, in addition to the classic Spin Dash, Drop Dash has been added, introduced for the first time in the latest Sonic Mania. In the Avatar phase we faced the same stage as the Sonic Phase, adding the custom character that we had to choose and customize before starting. Avatar is equipped with Burst Wispon, and is able to activate Bust Wisp skills. You can also unlock new Wispon and customization objects through game progress.

Finally, the last available mode in the demo, which obviously did not escape trying, was the Team Phase. This is a mode that offers a gameplay similar to the one already seen in Sonic Heroes for 128-bit consoles: the player can alternately control Sonic and Avatar, which move in tandem bound as double-stranded, and together they can establish strong synergies that allow us to create new special moves and super shots in which we will be temporarily invincible.

It should be noted that team mode does not allow playing with a human player, as the final game will be completely single-player, so we will work tandem with the CPU, which will handle the other character we will not command.

The feelings we experienced at the end of this test were in some respects disagreeing. On the one hand, we found a clear and prolific detachment from the last 3D chapters of the series that had not been particularly loved, with the Sonic Team that tried to integrate the most respected elements of the 2D games, to make it less flat and the binaries' gaming experience, one of the most criticized defects of the last chapters.

Speed sense also exponentially increased but this was done without paying duty with the confusion generated by not seeing where you are going. In fact, the shots have been carefully chosen to give the player the chance to react in time to critical situations and obstacles. On the other hand, we have found some of the historical Sonic defects in 3D.

The Avatar Phase is definitely an attempt to reinvent the gameplay and propose something new, and the Tag Phase seemed to be really exciting at times, though it may initially seem a bit chaotic. In short, Sonic Forces tries to blend cards and propose something innovative by adding to the recipe also the elements most beloved by old-time fans and the glorious 2D chapters.

On the technical front, everything seemed fine and we did not find the slightest uncertainty in the frame rate that was always nailed to 60fps, and the level of detail was not bad, accompanied by a good post-processing and texture filtering work.

This test of Sonic Forces has hit us positively. The person who wrote you is a Sonic fan since 1991, and it is great to see that SEGA is really working to bring this iconic and important series back to life. Certainly, there are still a few unknowns about the design of the levels and the quantity and variety of the same, and we hope to clarify the ideas more by testing a more demo or full version, coming on the market on November 7, 2017 on PCs, PS4s, Xbox One and Nintendo Switch.

[Joellui]

Has anyone else read that a normal Sonic Forces play through will be the in the same length similar to Colors and Generations? Also explains why they decided with the 40 dollar price point.

Here's the video with the person reading the interview:

I'm actually disappointed with the fact that is as long as those two since, story wise those games were pretty shallow and really had no depth. I just don't wanna buy a game that I can finish the main story in about a 2-4 hours. Pretty disappointing.

[Graystripe2000]

EDIT: Nevermind! Found it. 

“The gameplay content is going to be very similar to Sonic Colors or Sonic Generations, if you want to think about experiencing it from start to finish. What’s going to be additional is all the extra little things the team has hidden inside the game that will require you to go back and play with different and more powerful Wispons. There’s content in there to make sure that everyone can play through the game and have a fun time, but there’s also all these little things to do later that, if you really wanted to dig into the game, will be there for you.” 

http://nintendoeverything.com/sonic-forces-producer-on-not-regaining-rings-game-length-price-no-dlc-plans-darker-tone/ 

Also, I saw a review of colors on YouTube and according to it, it takes around 6 hours to beat.

[Straw Hat]

34 minutes ago, Joellui said:

Has anyone else read that a normal Sonic Forces play through will be the in the same length similar to Colors and Generations? Also explains why they decided with the 40 dollar price point.

Here's the video with the person reading the interview:

**Twip Vid**

I'm actually disappointed with the fact that is as long as those two since, story wise those games were pretty shallow and really had no depth. I just don't wanna buy a game that I can finish the main story in about a 2-4 hours. Pretty disappointing.

From what I heard, there was a mistake in the video. The article was talking about the content of the game being similar to Colors and Gen. Not the length of the game.

[Joellui]

42 minutes ago, Straw Hat said:

From what I heard, there was a mistake in the video. The article was talking about the content of the game being similar to Colors and Gen. Not the length of the game.

Ahh okay thanks for correcting me, I was worried about how long the game would be. Although I'm still worried about the game anyways.

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Keep in mind that even the most "fleshed-out" Sonic games were padded beyond the 4-hour mark with things like obnoxiously tedious hub worlds and treasure hunts. SA2 would've been just as epic without the knuckles, rouge, and shooting parts, plus even shorter than 3 hours. 

[Almar]

7 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Keep in mind that even the most "fleshed-out" Sonic games were padded beyond the 4-hour mark with things like obnoxiously tedious hub worlds and treasure hunts. SA2 would've been just as epic without the knuckles, rouge, and shooting parts, plus even shorter than 3 hours. 

You could have cut Sonic from 06 and just have Shadow try to stop Mephiles from blowing up the universe too.

[pppp]

TWIP means well, but his problem is that he rarely thinks his statements through. All 3D Sonic games that are longer than Colors and Generations is because they have alot of needless shit padding the game out. SA1/2 had the alternate playstyles, Heroes had you play the same levels 4 times with small differences each, Shadow required you to see all 10 pointless endings before actually seeing the one that actually matters, 06 has...well that horse has been beaten so I'll move on, Secret Rings had the nerve to not tell you which missions are optional leading to alot of wasted time if you want to just move through the story, Unleashed had the Werehog, Lost World had animal grinding and the less said of how much of your time RoL wastes the better.

Black Knight was actually the best one in this regard, but the on rails nature of the levels made it easier on the level designers, so it's kinda cheating.

Personally I don't mind the games being short if the only alternative is to fill it with shit no one asked for.

[Joellui]

2 hours ago, pppp said:

TWIP means well, but his problem is that he rarely thinks his statements through. All 3D Sonic games that are longer than Colors and Generations is because they have alot of needless shit padding the game out. SA1/2 had the alternate playstyles, Heroes had you play the same levels 4 times with small differences each, Shadow required you to see all 10 pointless endings before actually seeing the one that actually matters, 06 has...well that horse has been beaten so I'll move on, Secret Rings had the nerve to not tell you which missions are optional leading to alot of wasted time if you want to just move through the story, Unleashed had the Werehog, Lost World had animal grinding and the less said of how much of your time RoL wastes the better.

Black Knight was actually the best one in this regard, but the on rails nature of the levels made it easier on the level designers, so it's kinda cheating.

Personally I don't mind the games being short if the only alternative is to fill it with shit no one asked for.

What I meant short, sorry if I didn't bring the message across properly is story wise. I felt that Pre Sonic Colors most of the games story were fleshed out more and made more sense. I honestly feel that the story for both Sonic Colors and Generations was just an excuse to just play the levels. 

I feel the levels should revolve around the story, not the story revolve around the levels. Then again I don't know anything about making a Sonic game so what do I know?..

[PandaChao]

10 hours ago, pppp said:

TWIP means well, but his problem is that he rarely thinks his statements through. All 3D Sonic games that are longer than Colors and Generations is because they have alot of needless shit padding the game out. SA1/2 had the alternate playstyles, Heroes had you play the same levels 4 times with small differences each, Shadow required you to see all 10 pointless endings before actually seeing the one that actually matters, 06 has...well that horse has been beaten so I'll move on, Secret Rings had the nerve to not tell you which missions are optional leading to alot of wasted time if you want to just move through the story, Unleashed had the Werehog, Lost World had animal grinding and the less said of how much of your time RoL wastes the better.

Black Knight was actually the best one in this regard, but the on rails nature of the levels made it easier on the level designers, so it's kinda cheating.

Personally I don't mind the games being short if the only alternative is to fill it with shit no one asked for.

I never had a problem with Sonic games being short. Especially if they were not padded out with alternate gameplay and bad gimmicks. I didn't like a huge percentage of the adventure games because I didn't care to play shooting levels or fishing. I just wanted to play the game like how I would expect a Sonic game to play. I do see now that Sonicteam did not let Sonic's traditional type of gameplay stand on it's own. They always had to add some padding to game to make the game feel "longer". However, I think the flaw to Sonic is that, Sonic runs through levels so fast that it's expected for Sonic games to be short naturally. Also, Sonicteam has to build really large stages to accommodate Sonic's speed so I think they are having trouble finding a balance. But quality is more important to me than quantity. I'll take quality over a game that has a forced gimmick in it to artificially make the game feel longer.