What YOU Think of Sonic Forces

[Mad Convoy]

1 hour ago, Alienrun said:

Good gosh this is a good post...

If it makes you feel any better, I too took a bit of contention with that very paragraph. What it really boils down to is a over generalized look at the kind of people I saw in this mindset, (I ironically didn't explain myself) but there is a bit of truth to it...so I suppose I should explain that better...

Also, apologies about the boost thing, chances are those people weren't trying to understand you and were just mindlessly pushing their agenda OR didn't realize it was bothering you.

Thanks. And no need to apologize-- you aren't doing anything wrong.

1 hour ago, Alienrun said:

I see where your going with the technician/preformer analogy, and I agree with it for the most part. But I've come to understand that its a little more complicated than that, as you mentioned. More so I feel your explanation on the preformer side seems just a little too vague and slightly misleading.

For example...When I first played Freedom Planet I was on quite the emotional high, so much so that to this day it has become my favorite game. It wasn't until later that I realised I didn't have the balls to explain my feelings about the game to other people, and what it really came down to when I did was just my personal experience/build up that allowed me to get that much enjoyment out of the game in the first place. (This doesn't mean I don't like it logically, its just not relevant to what I'm saying here.)

TL;DR It was all in my head...games don't give people emotion, that's on them. People will make a concious choice to emotionally invest themselves in whatever they want...and usually in the case of pre-built video game hype, people will set themselves up to that expectation.

This is fine and normal though, people change and thus our tastes for games should constantly change in order that we evolve and achieve a sense of progression. Its part of why people play games in the first place I think. (There's also social and immersion reasons but you get my point.)

...

Basically I bring that up to try and justify that in a way I'm pushing the technitian narrative going forward, but I think that in of itself can apply to art appreciation as a whole, so in that regard there isn't really a limit to how the technitian is described. Nevermind the fact that the Preformer sub-category doesn't account for replayability or judging a game after you are done with it (AKA thinking about it fluidly) based on your description of "enjoying each part of the game as you go".

Granted I think both are important, I just felt the way you described them to be a bit off, but maybe that's just me...

 

No, its not just you. You make a lot of valid points here that I agree with. Replayability, for example, is a very important thing that I rather carelessly missed. And your anecdote about Planet Freedom was on point.

I admit that I trimmed a lot to get to the point and avoid text walls, and it looks like that backfired a bit. Truthfully, this is an ongoing debate that's existed long before Sonic Forces and might be better suited as its own topic. It should be noted that there isn't anything inherently superior about being a technician than a performer or vice versa-- they're just different ways of viewing games.

The only part I really disagree with is the part where you say that our tastes in games should constantly change so that we can evolve. Yes, its true that people's tastes change frequently, however, its not an obligation to do so as you imply. They change at different rates for each person-- for example, I loved Pokemon for much of my childhood, but after awhile I got bored of it and disliked the new mechanics added to it. Meanwhile, one of my best friends still likes Pokemon, however, he caveats it by saying that the 3D-styled Pokemon games do not age as well as recent 2D games like Shantae: Half Genie Hero. We both got into platforming games through Mario and Kirby. He's gotten into Classic Mega Man as well (which I personally don't enjoy all that much), while I got into Sonic (which he personally finds very meh) before he got into Mega Man. So, in other words, he continued on the path of precision platforming like Mario and found that he prefers difficult games with serious plot elements, while I continued on the path of looser platformers like Kirby and found that I don't really mind if a game is light and easy so long as it is made well and fun. We both still love Kirby though. If you want an extreme example that's more verifiable, some people with ADHD and autism develop very narrow and specific tastes that are unchanging, others rapidly cycle through specific tastes, and many have some combination of the two in terms of what their interests are at a particular moment. I'm probably rambling at this point, but what I am trying to say is that changes in taste are not an obligation and instead are just stuff that are best left to happen naturally.

1 hour ago, Alienrun said:

In regards to those comments though I'm very aware of how easy it is to misunderstand people online and the lack of emotional communication that takes place via text. But some comments I saw were a bit rediculous...some people were legit exited about seeing sand in green hill zone. Not just in the moment...but so much so that it justifies everything else wrong with GHZ's inclusion...and I quote:

"I REALLY think that the sand in the backround is really interesting and I think it will be interesting to find out what it is/why its there when the game comes out." (not exact quote but eh)

This guy here isn't just interested to see sand in the backround...he's interested solely because its a mystery AND the sheer act of solving the mystery is "interesting" as well. (nevermind the fact it probably won't be thought out that much in the actual game)

This is what I mean when I say "low standards" or "no taste". You could have put ANY thing new in green hill and this guy would be exited, simply because its technically new and he hopes that the game will be clever enough to give a satisfying conclusion...it reaks fanboyish levels of appreciation for the series. To be frank the only reason this is a point of contention for me is because I myself used to be like this and it pains me to see others go through the same crap only to one day look back and regret the whole endeavor...

Maybe my standards are too high? Maybe because I actively try to improve myself as a person I just naturally think these things more...IDK for sure.

And yes I am self aware enough that this one example I brought up is still subjective...quite literately the defenition of "different taste", but if that's the case then let me ask you this...

When is it okay for me to tell someone they have bad taste? When can I push my own agenda? When do we reach a point where everyone isn't mindlessly screaching "It's just my opinion" and people start actually beliveing in what they believe in, instead of holding back they're actual thoughts. It should go without saying that when I say someone has bad taste, its my opinion, but that doesn't mean I don't think its true.

Like...I'm pretty sure we can all agree most kids have "bad taste" in the sense that they don't have as much exposure to games as adults AND less time to process what they have experienced. This is what I mean by standards...when the metric for a game being good is limited to what one knows about sonic then that to me is low because while I do like sonic a lot there is so much more to gaming that just this franchise...Its a point of comparison...in a way you could say I'm inderectly comparing myself to them because I think to myself "oh...I've been there before, good gosh is he always going to be like this/will he regret this." Or "OMG that statement is so backwards!"

TL;DR Its less the people making simple statements and more the people that actually do bother to put up an argument, but do nothing but parrot the same stick over and over again at nausiem and aren't really talking to you. (seems to be the main cause of problems around here now that I think about it.)

To be fair to those people, the sand does come right out of nowhere and doesn't gel with the rest of the level. This is bound to get at least some people curious about why the sand is there, even if there's a high chance of Sonic Team employee just collectively shrugging their shoulders. I suspect if Sonic Team doesn't provide a good explanation, a fan will.

Honestly, you really don't seem to take high standards too far. Its totally fine to have them. From my point of view, taking high standards too far means having unrealistic expectations. For example, having high standards means that you'll consider lag in the Switch version of Sonic Forces to be a major flaw and insist on better. Having unrealistic expectations is insisting that Sonic Forces is complete crap and Sonic Team is totally incompetent because Sonic Team doesn't know how to get the Switch version of Forces to the same graphical level of the PS4/XB1, never mind that the Switch is sparkling new and therefore needs a lot of figuring out from companies that are not Nintendo whereas the PS4/XB1 have been around for awhile and have better specs than the Switch. Or ranting at every Sonic game that turns out not to be Favorite Sonic Game To My Every Narrow Specification Insert Number Here.

And you make a valid point. It is extremely difficult to determine when somebody has poor taste to the point where I usually avoid outright saying that somebody has poor taste (well, that and people are less receptive to those who pretty much say that their perspective is crap and they need to get a new one). I mean, really, its a matter of perspective. For example, a lot of fans of Sonic Boom regard Teen Titans Go! as a terrible television show with below the bottom of the barrel humor, and so would say that somebody who considers TTG! to be their favorite show and incredibly funny has poor taste and low standards. However, on the flip side, fans of TTG! that have watched Boom regard Boom as a boring television show that's devoid of action and too subdued to be funny, and so would say that somebody who considers Boom to be their favorite show and incredibly funny has poor taste and low standards.

However, I would avoid pushing an agenda. The best Sonic discussions tend to be the ones that are laid back and aren't done just to prove a point but to find options that work for the franchise (therefore making them open to compromise) and hear what other people think about a topic. Often trying to push an agenda results in that screeching of "Its my opinion!" as a way of backpedaling or avoiding discussion--  after all, its not like the agenda pusher truly intends on compromise or hearing what other fans have to say.

Yeah, I think all fans have had embarrassing moments. I used to be a Boost purist and I said a ton of embarrassing and mean things that I regret in the process (fortunately, they were mostly on a forum that automatically deletes old topics, posts, and users). I could also do a montage of my dumb Sonic Lost World and Rise of Lyric (pre-release) defenses, if you so desire. But with fans, if they're capable of learning, they'll figure it out on their own. If they're not capable of learning, then there's no point in engaging them since they'll just get defensive and say or do even dumber stuff than before. Either way, they don't do any long term damage. So I'd just leave them be and block as necessary. You are the only person that you have absolute control over, so the important part is that you know your capacity for self growth and are willing to recognize when you're wrong. Which you do.

2 hours ago, Alienrun said:

To be honest part of me does want to understand these people better, but sometimes I reach a point where I feel I can't or I don't even care about the situation myself...maybe I get the feeling they don't care to and thus can't be bothered playing a game of pull and swing trying to figure out what they are thinking only for them not to tell me.

Like...I met someone in real life once and one of his favorite games was 3D World, he was passionate about it too, my immidiate thought was "Um...does this guy have better standards/if only I could show him better games that I consider better!" Is that wrong to think?

Maybe...possibly...part of me says yes, the other IDK. If anything sometimes these people take very very VERY specific things about games way too seriously and I start to question how I should approach them, AKA fanboy mentality once again.

IDK I might be over thinking this. I think most of what you said makes sense, I was just explaining myself...tell me what parts make sense or not and what you agree/disagree with! : D

You've just gotta do you, but keep in mind that there are some people whose thought patterns are just incomprehensible. Its great to discuss with willing participants or people asking you a question, but you can't play chess with chickens. They'll just crap all over the board and strut around like they've won. An important internet skill is being able to distinguish those with the mentality of a willing debater or a passionate fan and those who have the mentality of the aforementioned chicken. And also when to stay quiet-- in all likelihood, that guy who loves 3D World is still going to love 3D World after you criticize it and offer suggestions, though he might be willing to at least listen to you if you're cordial and respectful about it. If he's being rude about it, then you should rip the game he loves so much to shreds if you think its appropriate, but there's no need to roast polite, friendly folks. 

My advice in general is don't do Twitter debates or image board debates-- Twitter is not designed for detailed explanations while image boards tend to be barely moderated at best which makes them a magnet for skullduggery and dogpiling. Take it to PMs/IMs, a forum, or a better suited form of social media such as Facebook or Tumblr.

But yeah, I think your post was good!

[Sgt Nate V]

Seems good, will get it for Switch on release.

Not sure where to post this, when I created a thread about it, it got locked.

In this video, there are images that appear for a split second. A ring, Sanic, and Boom Knuckles. During some gameplay of Sonic Forces, an image of the Fun is Infinite secret from Sonic CD appears. Is this another clue about Infinite?

[JosepHenry]

Just now, Sgt Jack V said:

Seems good, will get it for Switch on release.

Not sure where to post this, when I created a thread about it, it got locked.

In this video, there are images that appear for a split second. A ring, Sanic, and Boom Knuckles. During some gameplay of Sonic Forces, an image of the Fun is Infinite secret from Sonic CD appears. Is this another clue about Infinite?

Umm... What clue? That doesn't tell us anything.

[Sgt Nate V]

Just now, Joseph Mello said:

Umm... What clue? That doesn't tell us anything.

Meaning that, well, haven't you seen all the things related to Sonic Forces recently containing an ∞. Like Doug Robb from Hoobastank doing the theme, and Hoobastank is supposed to be spelled H∞bastank. There's also the ∞ hidden in the birthday video on June 23rd.

[JosepHenry]

1 minute ago, Sgt Jack V said:

Meaning that, well, haven't you seen all the things related to Sonic Forces recently containing an ∞. Like Doug Robb from Hoobastank doing the theme, and Hoobastank is supposed to be spelled H∞bastank. There's also the ∞ hidden in the birthday video on June 23rd.

Yeah, but what does that tell us about Infinite? We already know that he/she exists and the name is Infinite. I think is just a reference to the character.

[Sgt Nate V]

Oh.

[Chris Knopps]

10 hours ago, Mayor D said:

Utterly nobody who has complained about Green Hill has complained about it because it's an easy level.

They've complained because it's poorly designed.

Look at this shit.

Any time you enter an S Tube you automatically get set to boost speed at the indicated point.

So why the hell do we have this?

 

Speed boosters followed by speed boosters followed by more speed boosters! What hazard justifies this? A small slope.

 

Oh hey lets put springs all over the place for utterly no reason.

Do I even need to bring up how they messed up the swing bridge or that rock?

Because 4-10 year old's have to be able to beat the game, Sonic Team's target audience. They have to be able to experience the same reward/thrill as someone who has mastered the series and garners these things naturally through experience. They don't want kids to have to master anything, just play and beat things. Always keep this in mind with questions pertaining to stage designs.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Because 4-10 year old's have to be able to beat the game, Sonic Team's target audience. They have to be able to experience the same reward/thrill as someone who has mastered the series and garners these things naturally through experience. They don't want kids to have to master anything, just play and beat things. Always keep this in mind with questions pertaining to stage designs.

A decent chunk of games coming out now have been pretty stress free for children and they haven't had to sacrifice good level design to do it. You're missing the forest for the trees here.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Josh said:

A decent chunk of games coming out now have been pretty stress free for children and they haven't had to sacrifice good level design to do it. You're missing the forest for the trees here.

Keep in mind I said in another comment that despite how Sonic Team develops their games which targets kids, more often than not kids are capable of beating things adults have a harder time with, that's my point.

It's a lack of understanding just what kids can do.

[Diogenes]

So have they been targeting and underestimating 4 year olds since 1998? Because shitty automation has been a part of this series for a long time.

[Badnik Mechanic]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

Because 4-10 year old's have to be able to beat the game, Sonic Team's target audience. 

4-10 year olds know how to play games.

[Indigo Rush]

I beat Sonic 3 & Knuckles when I was 7. Didn't need boost pads to tell me where to go. Got all the Super Emeralds, too. 

 

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

So have they been targeting and underestimating 4 year olds since 1998? Because shitty automation has been a part of this series for a long time.

That's my point.

1 hour ago, Mayor D said:

4-10 year olds know how to play games.

Exactly, that's what I mean. Its likely both the story/tone the series has adopted post-Colors as well as the simplification of the games since that have caused pretty much all audiences to drop out of buying Sonic.

A kid will get turned off by something that gets too childish, too much for them, because no child really wants what's for them but rather something older audiences are into, hence modern cartoons like Regular Show, Steven Universe and Adventure Time which has more of a teen/adult vibe going on and they will also get bored with things simplified for them in games like this, which is my guess as to why Crash N-Sane is being such a success with it's wide demographic appeal and its challenge combined. Kids likely take much quicker to challenge than older players in gaming really.

[Chavysonicfan]

I actually look foward to the game. I love it expect for a few things like vocals or the custom oc thing. I really  thought that would NEVER happen. I think for more casual gamers like me, I know a lot of people not the best at games and I think the difficulty is good where it's at. I mean, im pretty sure not everyone is good at games. I think it's  going to be pretty  good. There is a lot of pessimism and negativty about the game on this platform and it really makes me sad that I thought the majority of sonic fans would like it. Now I know you guys of course of have reasons for disliking it, but it would be nice to say one good thing about the game at least. It seems on other platforms sonic fans are a lot more accepting of the game. Loving every aspect of it, more than me. Its nice to see some positivity for the game. I hope the game just proves everyone wrong including me about it. At least i hope so.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

6 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

That's my point.

The problem is that your alleged point doesn't make sense in the context of what you're throwing shade at though.

[Chris Knopps]

9 hours ago, Chavysonicfan said:

I actually look foward to the game. I love it expect for a few things like vocals or the custom oc thing. I really  thought that would NEVER happen. I think for more casual gamers like me, I know a lot of people not the best at games and I think the difficulty is good where it's at. I mean, im pretty sure not everyone is good at games. I think it's  going to be pretty  good. There is a lot of pessimism and negativty about the game on this platform and it really makes me sad that I thought the majority of sonic fans would like it. Now I know you guys of course of have reasons for disliking it, but it would be nice to say one good thing about the game at least. It seems on other platforms sonic fans are a lot more accepting of the game. Loving every aspect of it, more than me. Its nice to see some positivity for the game. I hope the game just proves everyone wrong including me about it. At least i hope so.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to weapons returning and consider that a plus. It was a huge thrill for me to play back in the Adventure games with Gamma and Tails/Eggman and I've waited for it to come back since Shadow.

It feels like a small first step in finally turning their heads away from critics and "diehard" fans and instead returning to appealing to general masses/audiences beyond those with a Solo-Sonic and "Just like this or else!" mindset which has limited the franchise more and more since Unleashed hit.

Despite all of my own gripes with Forces, it's doing it right by bringing back weapons and bringing back more serious and realistic, albeit pixar in nature, locales, and it does bode well for the future in my eyes so long as the next title removes Classic and 2D, does WAY better with the music and replaces the writers finally.

[Celestia]

14 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Quote

So have they been targeting and underestimating 4 year olds since 1998? Because shitty automation has been a part of this series for a long time.

That's my point.

...If that's your point why are you acting like this is a Colours and onwards thing?

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Celestia said:

...If that's your point why are you acting like this is a Colours and onwards thing?

It has been a gradual progression but the most drastic simplification happened Colors-Now.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

10 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It has been a gradual progression but the most drastic simplification happened Colors-Now.

 Are you sure this isn't another bias against those titles? Since, well,  automation isn't really THAT much of a thing in Colors to begin with, compared with the others.

Like seriously,  how do you go about classifying Colors as such compared to its franchise bretheren? 

The blocky platforming and over-use of 2-D, I'd get as a complaint, but automation? Come on now. 

[Celestia]

I wouldn't say the automation now is any worse (or better, mind you, which is definitely an issue) than it ever was. The stuff in Classic GHZ is more weird than anything, especially the boosters in the tunnels.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Celestia said:

I wouldn't say the automation now is any worse (or better, mind you, which is definitely an issue) than it ever was. The stuff in Classic GHZ is more weird than anything, especially the boosters in the tunnels.

 Agreed. If anything,  it's the odd one out of the pack we've seen regarding that if you ask me. 

[Sega DogTagz]

The boosters at the end of tunnels are probably just there to keep you from re-entering the S-Tunnel from the bottom and thus saving the automation sequence in the tunnel from spazzing out.

 

[Chris Knopps]

21 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Ace Joranvexeon said:

 Are you sure this isn't another bias against those titles? Since, well,  automation isn't really THAT much of a thing in Colors to begin with, compared with the others.

Like seriously,  how do you go about classifying Colors as such compared to its franchise bretheren? 

The blocky platforming and over-use of 2-D, I'd get as a complaint, but automation? Come on now. 

I'm speaking in terms of how the game plays for you and how "safe" the stages are, how the games have made it more and more unlikely to die over the years.

(Save for problematic games that suffer a series of unfortunate events like RoL in which you don't have a choice but to die randomly)

I had the hardest time beating Unleashed out of all titles following that. Though granted Lost World was tricky, but mainly because the game play caused issues which often caused death which you couldn't help due to sticking to everything and such.

I'm not saying to go back to Genesis deathtrap levels mind you, but I would like difficulty on par with Unleashed brought back, which i don't see in Forces.

[Plasme]

Some people really don't understand why Sonic uses automation. 2D gameplay cannot just translate flawlessly into 3D. Have you seen those effort-filled but embarassing 3D fangames that insist on minimal scripting, like Paradise and Utopia, where the speed is all wrong, the game fucks up on loops and it's just a clusterfuck of pacing/jumping embarrasment all around. You can't just not have any scripting around these set-pieces, otherwise the player would mess up because of how incredibly precise these speed setpieces are.

AND FUCKING NEWSFLASH; the 2D Classic Sonic games used scripting and automation for their setpieces too. Have you actually seen Sonic 2 played with the scripting and automation taken out? You don't make jumps properly, the game slows down, loops fucks up and large 'flashy' jumps fall short. The whole code of Sonic 2 is a garbled clusterfuck that had to be patched together. So I'm finding this fawning over a mythical time when Sonic never had automation pretty fucking ridiculous.

As Sonic Team have said numerous times over, the game has to use automation to provide for a fun gaming experience. I know everyone and their dog seems to want magical organic gameplay that never messes up, but you'll have to keep dreaming in candy land for that.

 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

I had the hardest time beating Unleashed out of all titles following that.

Okay,  I like Unleashed as much as the next guy,  but it,  especially the HD version likely had more deaths due to cheapness and required memorization than proper difficulty. 

And quick time events were dumb to include (Some of which are required to perform,  simply not to die).

Colors improved on things without having to focus too much on difficulty. 

Colors,  I appreciate for slightly,  but not too much,  slowing things down and not emphasizing over-use of the boost which allowed it to be sorted l speed based but also focus on another core Sonic aspect; exploration, to the point where some levels even had multiple different ending goal rings in different locations.