Sonic Mania & Forces Interview(s)

[TheOcelot]

13 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

What we really need is Sonic Generations 2, which Sonic Forces definitely is not. It'd be one of their Best moves in recent years, if Not the Best.

Can't wait for Sonic Generations 3 which will have four gameplay styles!

 

The OC is the only gameplay style in Forces which I find remotely interesting. Such a shame it appears to control as bad as classic Sonic and possibly even worse.

[Kuzu]

32 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

I don't like Forces because it's a mess of a Sonic game. Heck, it's supposed to appeal to up to three totally different demographics (as far as SEGA sees it). So do they expect the Classic fans to only enjoy the 33% of the game with Classic Sonic and dislike the rest? And the same for the Modern and OC fans? It's a joke. 

That's what gets me. They take for granted what people actually want and just assume throwing everything together will make everyone happy. Let's say I'm more of a fan of the Dreamcast/Modern era, but don't care much for Classic Sonic. I'd be satisfied with things like the larger emphasis on the plot and characters, and Boost gameplay but then Classic Sonic takes up roughly 50% of the game on both the plot and gameplay fronts. So essentially, I'm only getting half of what I want. 

This isn't me saying that I don't like Classic Sonic, but he's not what I signed on for. I wanted a game that focused on and played to the strengths of Modern Sonic because that's my preference. So instead of getting one whole game that caters to my tastes, I get half of a game that I like and half that's not particularly bad, but not something I really care for as a whole. 

This is why Forces doesn't seem to have much hype surrounding it. It's going for broad appeal, but only giving people a portion of what they want. I've seen people say they're excited for one part, but never really focus on the other parts.

If Forces was strictly a Modern Sonic experience along with Mania, we'd be fucking Golden. Don't like Forces? There's Mania. Don't like Mania? There's Forces. But now it's like...if you like Modern Sonic, but don't care for Classic or the Avatar ?well too bad, you're going to have to put up with both of them and Modern is only going to take up 33% of the game. Meanwhile, if you like Classic Sonic, but don't care for Modern you literally don't even have to touch Forces like with Generations, because you can literally just go play Mania instead. 

 

Now granted, it's not like it's a bad decision. Sonic does have widespread appeal to various audiences, and fans usually pick up the game out of brand loyalty anyway. Additionally, by aiming in every direction, they're at least bound to get a lot of mainstream appeal. It's a good business decision, it's just not one I agree with because it feels like they're treating us like statistical demographics that will be satisfied if you just throw us our most basic desires. Its fine if you're a casual fan who just isn't as passionate about the series anymore, but it's annoying as hell for the more dedicated fans who continuously cling hoping that Sonic Team one day will listen to their desires, but only get continuously frustrated when they don't lol.

[JosepHenry]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's what gets me. They take for granted what people actually want and just assume throwing everything together will make everyone happy. Let's say I'm more of a fan of the Dreamcast/Modern era, but don't care much for Classic Sonic. I'd be satisfied with things like the larger emphasis on the plot and characters, and Boost gameplay but then Classic Sonic takes up roughly 50% of the game on both the plot and gameplay fronts. So essentially, I'm only getting half of what I want. 

This isn't me saying that I don't like Classic Sonic, but he's not what I signed on for. I wanted a game that focused on and played to the strengths of Modern Sonic because that's my preference. So instead of getting one whole game that caters to my tastes, I get half of a game that I like and half that's not particularly bad, but not something I really care for as a whole. 

This is why Forces doesn't seem to have much hype surrounding it. It's going for broad appeal, but only giving people a portion of what they want. I've seen people say they're excited for one part, but never really focus on the other parts.

If Forces was strictly a Modern Sonic experience along with Mania, we'd be fucking Golden. Don't like Forces? There's Mania. Don't like Mania? There's Forces. But now it's like...if you like Modern Sonic, but don't care for Classic or the Avatar ?well too bad, you're going to have to put up with both of them and Modern is only going to take up 33% of the game. Meanwhile, if you like Classic Sonic, but don't care for Modern you literally don't even have to touch Forces like with Generations, because you can literally just go play Mania instead. 

 

Now granted, it's not like it's a bad decision. Sonic does have widespread appeal to various audiences, and fans usually pick up the game out of brand loyalty anyway. Additionally, by aiming in every direction, they're at least bound to get a lot of mainstream appeal. It's a good business decision, it's just not one I agree with because it feels like they're treating us like statistical demographics that will be satisfied if you just throw us our most basic desires. Its fine if you're a casual fan who just isn't as passionate about the series anymore, but it's annoying as hell for the more dedicated fans who continuously cling hoping that Sonic Team one day will listen to their desires, but only get continuously frustrated when they don't lol.

That's a thing that Sonic Team does since 1998. I only play Adventure for Sonic and Tails. I only play Adventure 2 for Sonic and Shadow. I only play Unleashed for Sonic. However I have to play the rest of the stuff that I don't care about to complete the game.

Is just weird that you guys are complaining about that now...

And at the very least, there isn't a gameplay that has nothing to do with Sonic.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mello said:

That's a thing that Sonic Team does since 1998. I only play Adventure for Sonic and Tails. I only play Adventure 2 for Sonic and Shadow. I only play Unleashed for Sonic. However I have to play the rest of the stuff that I don't care about to complete the game.

Is just weird that you guys are complaining about that now...

And at the very least, there isn't a gameplay that has nothing to do with Sonic.

How old are you!!? This has been the chief complaint about the series since 1998. I was there for all of the complaints about the additional characters ruining the game, the story being "too dark", werehog, all of it. 

[JosepHenry]

56 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

How old are you!!? This has been the chief complaint about the series since 1998. I was there for all of the complaints about the additional characters ruining the game, the story being "too dark", werehog, all of it. 

Sorry, that was unnecessary of me to say that. I barely know this forum compared to you so I didn't know that.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

4 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

This is why Forces doesn't seem to have much hype surrounding it. It's going for broad appeal, but only giving people a portion of what they want. I've seen people say they're excited for one part, but never really focus on the other parts.

I don't disagree with what you said. Just want to add that I think what Forces is actually doing is segmented appeal rather than broad appeal.

Games like Mario Odyssey have broad appeal. Immediately clear on what it is offering, consistently Mario throughout, and all ages are welcome. Like every other main series Mario game, it will sell like crazy.

Sonic Forces on the other hand, is a confused product with a lack of cohesion. 30% of it caters specifically to one segment of the Sonic fanbase, 30% another, and the other 30% another. The gameplay styles share a very loose foundation but are distinct and contained from one another in gameplay identity. So they're relying on being good enough to sell the rest of the game to consumers who may not be interested in the other portions. This is quite different than having one unified, straightforward concept that anyone can participate in.

[Milo]

Quote

NUK: Sonic Forces isn’t the only Sonic the Hedgehog game on Nintendo Switch this year. You’re also preparing Sonic Mania for a summer release. What’s the thinking behind releasing two games?

TI: We actually started development of Sonic Forces first, and during development we decided to target current Sonic fans and also casual gamers. However, in the Sonic fan base there are also those who started playing Sonic during the Mega Drive era. So we wanted to create a Sonic game that can also appeal to those old-school Mega Drive players, and that’s the reason why we created Sonic Mania. But we suspect there may also be many fans who enjoy playing both games. So for 2017, our aim is to please the entire Sonic fan base.

I already brought this up in the statuses two weeks ago, but it doesn't bear to repeat it here. This quote Iizuka is saying now about understanding different demographics in the series in relation to Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces? Take a look at this:

Quote

Eurogamer: But how do the negative comments make you feel? Do you ignore them?

Takashi Iizuka: It's more that those fans are not positive towards the recent 3D Sonic games because we've been releasing only 3D Sonic games in the past couple of years.

It's hard to please both 2D and 3D fans at the same time, in the same title for instance.

This is why the team decided to release two different types of Sonic games. It's always hard to dodge every negative perception or make everybody happy with just one title. So we're giving two options to the users.

So, either way, you'll be pleased.

This is almost the exact same thing Iizuka said about Sonic 4 and Colors in this Eurogamer interview in 2010 (except speaking about 2D/3D fans, as opposed to older fans/modern and casual fans), before both of those games were released.

As we now know, despite what Iizuka is saying here; Colors and each subsequent Sonic Team game afterwards --Generations, Lost World, and now Forces-- still have skewered priorities in their targeted demographics.

- Despite supposed to be the 3D Sonic game for 2010, while Sonic 4(: Epi. I) filled the role of being the 2D Sonic game of 2010, Colors still has a huge bulk of 2D gameplay with occasional 3D segments.

- Generations' entire claim to fame is having the game split between 2D Genesis Sonic gameplay, and 3D Boost Sonic gameplay (which still has several 2D sections).

- Lost World is split between being a new attempt at a Sonic game and heavily borrowing identity and design cues from Mario games; and also has a large amount of 2D segments/levels in what's supposed to be a 3D game.

Which brings us to Forces. A three-way split between Genesis Sonic gameplay, Boost Sonic gameplay, and the gadget/CaC based Custom Hero gameplay. Despite Mania supposed to the game made specifically for Genesis Sonic fans, a third of the game for modern/casual Sonic fans is still carved up to appeal to Genesis Sonic fans.

2D also takes up the majority of gameplay we've seen so far for Sonic Forces too. The sole level of Boost/modern Sonic gameplay we've seen is arguably 2/3rds 2D, and the Custom Hero has the Green Hill level being entirely 2D outside of the on-rails giant crab chase near the end, and the Park Avenue gameplay is largely 2D too. This is not only despite classic Sonic's portion being entirely 2D by default; but also despite Sega also bringing out an entirely 2D game out this year in Mania.

...

So yeah, Iizuka/Sonic Team are really doing their job. They already said "We know we can't please everyone with one game" seven years ago.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 hours ago, Joseph Mello said:

Sorry, that was unnecessary of me to say that. I barely know this forum compared to you so I didn't know that.

Well, it's not just the whole forum--if anything this forum is just a small sample of the massive pot that is the Sonic fandom. Granted, that's mainly the hardcore crowd as the casual group isn't as anal about these things by comparison as long as they get a fun game out of it.

[Milo]

Criticisms about alternate gameplay styles aren't exactly exclusive to pockets within the Sonic community. Reviewers did complain about Big's fishing levels in SA1 as well as the treasure hunting / mech shooting levels in SA2; and we all know how they raked Unleashed's Werehog over the coals across the board. Yet at the same time we can't exactly call them hardcore fans either. Critics gave decent marks to games like Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic 4: Episode I, and Sonic Chronicles; whereas the attitude towards those games from the fanbase were/are much more critical in comparison.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

They should've just made a full modern sonic game and just made the other 2 Sonics dlc if they wanted to include classic and original the donut so bad lol. There, everyone wins. XD

[Chris Knopps]

16 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

It's all surface level appeal. SEGA are treating Sonic like a collection of different products for totally different audiences. They're taking the wrong approach by enforcing segregation of the brand. 

 

I think they just need to make a 2D franchise featuring Classic versions o the cast, and a 3D version with the Modern versions of the cast.

Two entirely separate franchises with no mingling between them, caters to people more universally without the confusion garnered from trying to have two slices of cake with a pizza topped with nonsense in the center that throws everything off.

You have a 2D franchise, you have a 3D franchise, that's all you need. No middle-man, just that.

[ChikaBoing]

Preview articles on Forces have been appearing, here they are:

the latter one has sonic fans salty  (...but I find notion Sonic does work in 3d because he is fast kinda stupid)

https://www.pcgamesn.com/sonic-mania/sonic-mania-gameplay-sonic-forces

Generally liked Modern Sonic, did not like how 'gimmicky' Custom felt.

https://apptrigger.com/2017/06/28/e3-2017-longest-five-minutes-end/

Never liked Modern Sonic, feels like Custom Hero was the best part

 

[Soniman]

juicy polarizing opinions yep, bout what i expected tho

[Gabz Girl]

Think this game might end up getting mixed reviews like Sonic Lost World. At least, I wouldn't be surprised if it does since the previews already seem so polarising. And Sonic Mania is definitely going to get all the critical acclaim (I would be shocked if it doesn't!).

[Milo]

7 hours ago, ChikaBoing said:

Preview articles on Forces have been appearing, here they are:

https://apptrigger.com/2017/06/28/e3-2017-longest-five-minutes-end/

Never liked Modern Sonic, feels like Custom Hero was the best part

 

I think you have the wrong link there. Are you referring to this preview?

https://apptrigger.com/2017/06/29/e3-2017-sonic-forces-escapes-city-not-past/

[Chris Knopps]

6 hours ago, Gabz Girl said:

Think this game might end up getting mixed reviews like Sonic Lost World. At least, I wouldn't be surprised if it does since the previews already seem so polarising. And Sonic Mania is definitely going to get all the critical acclaim (I would be shocked if it doesn't!).

The question of the day is what Sonic Team will do with the 3D portion of the franchise moving forward after the no-contest turnout with Mania.

I don't picture the results making them feel good about Forces at all.

Like...

Hell wouldn't hurt as much.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

That's an incredibly apologetic view of hell.

[Chris Knopps]

22 hours ago, Shaddy the guy said:

That's an incredibly apologetic view of hell.

That's how I feel being an employee of ST being like right now, especially after starting Forces featuring Classic Sonic and more Green Hill and other classic locations, at least they are HINTING at other classic locations in the game, then all of a sudden Mr. Iizuka or whoever made the decision to pop out a side project half way through development that was primarily all about Classic Sonic and classic locations, that being Mania, causing the entirety of the "Why?" questions/arguments going on.

They have a self destruction switch they just can't stop pressing over there. Who needs Hell when you've got ST to work at?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I think you misunderstood the point of my prior comment

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

I think you misunderstood the point of my prior comment

I probably did, though it was worth explaining my point nonetheless.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Yeah, sure it was.

MY point, on the other hand, is that game development is a job, and as long as it isn't development hell that leads to a low-quality piece of unplayable garbage (which it won't) working on Forces has no reason to be less enjoyable for the devs as Generations or Colors seemingly were, and I guarantee they all knew about Mania early enough into development for them to not actually care if one stage is in both games (because, I might add, the one stage is the only thing that's come anywhere close to confirmation). To say working on Forces or seeing Mania get better reception is anything like hell is ridiculous. Frankly, I'm betting they're more glad that anything Sonic is getting praise and neither game is considered a wholesale disaster by anyone who played them.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Shaddy the guy said:

Frankly, I'm betting they're more glad that anything Sonic is getting praise and neither game is considered a wholesale disaster by anyone who played them.

I've got nothing wrong with your stance, I just wanted to point out this last line sounds kind of depressing. lol

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

34 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I've got nothing wrong with your stance, I just wanted to point out this last line sounds kind of depressing. lol

Kinda had to pull another stretch, borderline strawman to make it come off as depressing though. :U

I mean, I get that you don't like Sonic Team, but comparing their situations to that of hell.......that's more than a little harsh and petty.

[Zippo]

Sonic Mania is coming out next month. 

Next Month.

Next Month!

NEXT MONTH!

[Detective Kaito]

2 hours ago, Zippo said:

Sonic Mania is coming out next month. 

Next Month.

Next Month!

NEXT MONTH!

Stop! I can't take the hype!