Best Sonic Game Story

[Razule]

22 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

That's not a "redeeming quality" at that point. The racist going home to a cozy homecooked meal is not a "oh this person has so much potential change and to do good" moment, it's a "oh this person is so far gone they've actively made and live by these choices" moment. The Fuhrur in Fullmetal Alchemist was not "redeemable" because of his family, it simply humanized him to the point where you could see the depth of his mindset in how he approached life, but villainized the rest of his actions because of the choices he makes in spite of that. He became more of a bastard as a result of that depth, not less of one.

Maybe the concept has been brought down to a smaller scale with those theoretical villains (none come to mind tbh) that it's now more pedestrian of a concept, like a Hunter X Hunter villain not effecting much, that a fanbase can gush about the potential in the future in the fannon pipeline, but this is Eggman we're talking about, not a teenage heartthrob.

I meant "redeeming quality" in the sense that's it's a positive trait in a sea of negatives. It's a characteristic that could potentially lead to a redemption, but doesn't guarantee it. In the context of Eggman, it's surface level "he's a bad guy, but not really that bad of a guy". He's done terrible things, but we're not supposed to take it that seriously because Sonic doesn't, and allegedly no one ever dies. 

[The Deleter]

10 minutes ago, Razule said:

I meant "redeeming quality" in the sense that's it's a positive trait in a sea of negatives. It's a characteristic that could potentially lead to a redemption, but doesn't guarantee it. In the context of Eggman, it's surface level "he's a bad guy, but not really that bad of a guy". He's done terrible things, but we're not supposed to take it that seriously because Sonic doesn't, and allegedly no one ever dies. 

I can't buy not taking the narrative and character actions seriously in leu of "no one ever dies" being a rule. It's something that ensures that the series as a kids series never becomes too far gone, sure, but all of these threats are treated just as seriously as they would be if they did. "The world is about to end" holds just as much weight as it would in another series, regardless of the safeguards there are so that metal virus victims didn't actually die, everyone in Station Square miraculously made it to the fifth floors or higher, or Prison Island simultaniously exploded with the force that Sonic and Co. were in danger being on it, but also didn't kill GUN personnel somehow. (wait what about the people aboard the ark. Maria???? )

Sonic does take it seriously, as well; every single time he's encountered Eggman saying he's turned over a new leaf, he's aggressively in his face with a "save it" locked and loaded. Eggman's actions in the Sonic universe matter, far more than the "yeah but I'll go karting with him at the end of the day" canon that Mario and Bowser enjoy. That's why as a surface level redeeming quality it means nothing; he still makes those decisions to put people in harms way and take active pleasure in doing so. Positive qualities are an indication of a path to redemption if they're hidden under the surface, yet to be fully realized, but if they're already embraced to the point they're harmonious with their negative actions? That's a very specific kind of evil that we can actively observe in the world

[MetalSkulkBane]

10 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Bro, Arcane has this character Silco, basically Eggman if he were a Mafia Godfather.

Would kill someone else’s kid (or threaten to at least—never actually saw him kill children despite others like the heroes doing so onscreen), leak drugs into the streets, poison water supplies, burn crops, and deliver a plague onto your house if it meant creating a country for his people.

But that same man would rather go through hell and die (and he does) than give away his adopted daughter for the crime of bombing a street with police officers and stealing a magical equivalent of nuclear weapons grade fuel.

That is a very good point. But I still think the biggest problem is Sage's mortality, not Eggman's.

I cannot imagine Sage being during Metal Virus and just watching. Neither can I see Eggman trying to hide it from her or trying to manipulate her like Silco did with Jynx (wouldn't work anyway).

Frankly I think Sage should die. That humanizes Eggman, without tying his hands. The way he loves grandpa Gerald, but doesn't mind trying to kill Shadow.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

That is a very good point. But I still think the biggest problem is Sage's mortality, not Eggman's.

I cannot imagine Sage being during Metal Virus and just watching. Neither can I see Eggman trying to hide it from her or trying to manipulate her like Silco did with Jynx (wouldn't work anyway).

There is no problem with Sage's morality.

If IDW is canon, then she knew about the metal virus. She reviewed Eggman's "entire campaign history" while looking for a way out of Cyberspace.

Sage knows every bad thing Eggman's ever done and isn't bothered by it. She's nice and sympathetic, perhaps, but she is not a heroically-aligned character. She is an Eggman Empire loyalist who knows what her father does and expresses no qualms with it at any point.

[Kuzu]

I can tell this is gonna be quite a topic here going forward...

 

I guess for my part, Eggman doing such blatantly evil shit for most of the series just make the attempts to humanize and downplay those evil moments rings hollow to me. Its like congratulating someone for having the most basic of human decency.

And since it was already brought up, no Bowser does not work as a comparison for reasons already outlined. Mario barely adheres to a narrative to begin with and has been that way since forever; its intentionally designed that way so Nintendo can interpret those characters in however they wish without paying much, if any attention to continuity. You can have Bowser trying to destroy a galaxy and then have him go Karting cuz that's just how Mario works.

Setting aside that Sonic should be setting itself apart from Mario, its always tried to adhere to more continuity and dynamic characterization by default. It doesn't always succeed at that and has faltered more often than not, but the attempt is there. The series has never really shyed away from how monstrous and destructive Eggman's actions have been and he doesn't show particular remorse for that either nor particularly cares about others beyond what they can do for him. That sets him up as a contrast to Sonic, who values the environment and his friends.

I'm not saying that Eggman can't or shouldn't have depth. Think some of you are confused about, what I'm saying is that his depth should be consistent with his prior characterization. You can't just portray a character a certain way and then just flip it on a whim, not without a significant amount of legwork in the writing department. And needless to say, Eggman hasn't really earned that; this isn't the culmination of a gradual character arc, its just an arbitrary character change for the sake of the story they wanted to tell.

Character personalities change at the drop of a hat in this series with no rhyme or reason, so I'm not too surprised people are just rolling with it at this point. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of it is all.

Its less "Eggman shouldn't have depth" and more "the characters need to actually start being consistent, and if they're going to change in significant ways, you need to build up to it"

 

You want Eggman to be a more sympathetic and likable character? By all means, but then don't have him trying to drop a sun on the heroes in literally the next game after taking over the planet or cause a global pandemic that nearly wiped out all organic life. 

Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too is essentially what I'm saying. Hope that cleared it up.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

That is a very good point. But I still think the biggest problem is Sage's mortality, not Eggman's.

I cannot imagine Sage being during Metal Virus and just watching. Neither can I see Eggman trying to hide it from her or trying to manipulate her like Silco did with Jynx (wouldn't work anyway).

Frankly I think Sage should die. That humanizes Eggman, without tying his hands. The way he loves grandpa Gerald, but doesn't mind trying to kill Shadow.

Nah, just killing Sage off would've been a waste.

Also, let's not forget that Sage's first instincts were to shoo Sonic away, and when that didn't take, outright try to kill him. Girl can be cold.

And even with her development,  her prerogatives were always prioritizing Eggman's goals or well-being. Future appearances would likely have her be something of a sympathetic villain, but still a villain nonetheless unless Flynn has a heel-face turn in mind for her later down the road.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

That is a very good point. But I still think the biggest problem is Sage's mortality, not Eggman's.

I cannot imagine Sage being during Metal Virus and just watching. Neither can I see Eggman trying to hide it from her or trying to manipulate her like Silco did with Jynx (wouldn't work anyway).

Frankly I think Sage should die. That humanizes Eggman, without tying his hands. The way he loves grandpa Gerald, but doesn't mind trying to kill Shadow.

I don’t think Sage’s morality is a problem given that her highest priority is to protect Eggman. Anything that falls under that umbrella is fair game while anything that doesn’t is irrelevant—and anything that goes against it is kill on sight.
 

I’d go as far as to say that while she might question the Metal Virus, she wouldn’t stop it as long as her father was safe—hell, she’d probably kill Starline rather than stop the Metal plague to really show her priorities, much the same way Jinx went out of her way to steal hexcrystals (which pisses off her adoptive father at first before he fells proud of her).

Also, I hate one-shot characters, so no killing off Sage.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Its less "Eggman shouldn't have depth" and more "the characters need to actually start being consistent, and if they're going to change in significant ways, you need to build up to it"

But there's nothing really inconsistent in the nature of things.

Villainous acts don't deprive someone of the capacity to care for others in their person circles, especially for someone like Eggman.

Heck, we've even seen the father-son-repair-him-when-broken/dead relationship with Metal Sonic prior, and no one really raised a fuss at that either for a reason.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

But there's nothing really inconsistent in the nature of things.

Villainous acts don't deprive someone of the capacity to care for others in their person circles, especially for someone like Eggman.

Heck, we've even seen the father-son-repair-him-when-broken/dead relationship with Metal Sonic prior, and no one really raised a fuss at that either for a reason.

If you read the entire post (and not just quoting the part you disagree with...) then you'd know I wasn't talking about "the nature of things" but the series as a whole with how Eggman has been portrayed.

[Diogenes]

We don't need a multi-game arc to establish that Eggman is capable of basic human emotions. He was never portrayed as some completely amoral psychopath, he's a cartoon supervillain. The Sage/Eggman stuff could've been done better but it's not some massive swerve for him.

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The series has never really shyed away from how monstrous and destructive Eggman's actions have been

It's a kid's series, they absolutely have done that. Dude splits the world into pieces and it's treated as a mild inconvenience.

[Dr. Mechano]

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You can't just portray a character a certain way and then just flip it on a whim, not without a significant amount of legwork in the writing department. And needless to say, Eggman hasn't really earned that; this isn't the culmination of a gradual character arc, its just an arbitrary character change for the sake of the story they wanted to tell.

Well... it's not a sudden change.

Eggman has shown care and even kindness for his creations before. He rescued Orbot and Cubot in Lost World, he's shown patting Metal on the back and acting affectionately toward him in the Olympic games, and since IDW's canon now, there's "Dr. Eggman's Birthday," a story where he saves his Badniks from harm and is shown to appreciate their love for him.

Sage is the most blatantly Eggman has been shown to care about one of his creations, but it's not a new element.

[Kuzu]

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

We don't need a multi-game arc to establish that Eggman is capable of basic human emotions. He was never portrayed as some completely amoral psychopath, he's a cartoon supervillain. The Sage/Eggman stuff could've been done better but it's not some massive swerve for him.

When Eggman often shows a lack of those distinct human qualities. Yes, you do.

Quote

It's a kid's series, they absolutely have done that. Dude splits the world into pieces and it's treated as a mild inconvenience.

....Didn't think you of all people would actually use this justification of all things...

 

12 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Well... it's not a sudden change.

Eggman has shown care and even kindness for his creations before. He rescued Orbot and Cubot in Lost World, he's shown patting Metal on the back and acting affectionately toward him in the Olympic games, and since IDW's canon now, there's "Dr. Eggman's Birthday," a story where he saves his Badniks from harm and is shown to appreciate their love for him.

Sage is the most blatantly Eggman has been shown to care about one of his creations, but it's not a new element.

I said its inconsistent, not that its out of nowhere.

[Razule]

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Didn't think you of all people would actually use this justification of all things...

It's an explanation. Some kid's series take their villains' actions seriously, some don't. Sonic flip-flops on which depending on the game. Using "kid's series" isn't a great excuse, but creators know they'll get less scrutiny for inconsistencies, so some won't care as much.

[Kuzu]

33 minutes ago, Razule said:

It's an explanation. Some kid's series take their villains' actions seriously, some don't. Sonic flip-flops on which depending on the game. Using "kid's series" isn't a great excuse, but creators know they'll get less scrutiny for inconsistencies, so some won't care as much.

Sonic fans have been bitching and moaning about inconsistencies in the writing for at least a decade now, so a lot of good that did them. 

This topic has come up so many times here on this site that I'm honestly surprised that some of you are even considering it an actual justification.  This is exactly what I meant when I said "trying to have your cake and eat it too."

Sonic should be lighthearted enough where things like continuity and character consistency shouldn't matter as much (because "its a KIDS series"), but you should also still completely invest in the story and characters no matter how much they arbitrarily change for the sake of the plot. (Because its Sonic I guess...) 

I don't even care if some of you like these changes, I don't even really mind them that much myself to be honest. But I'm not gonna entertain the idea that its actual dynamic characterization at work and not just the writers deciding on a whim how the characters should act for the sake of the plot they wanna tell without consideration for what came before or after. 

Because there's really nothing stopping someone from just deciding in the next game that Eggman is going to go right back to his classic brand of Saturday morning cartoon villainy and basically ignore what happened in Frontiers. It took them until this game to actually reestablish long forgotten characterization beats, and even then, its not particularly relevant to the story of Frontiers, so its more of a reminder to the audience that stuff happened, but not necessarily a promise that its going to matter at all in the future. 

 

That's why self-contained story arcs work a lot better for Sonic imo (with occasionaly multi-part arcs), because then you don't have to worry about that and the story is contained in that one game. Prior characterization wouldn't matter as much because it wouldn't be relevant to the game anyway. 

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic should be lighthearted enough where things like continuity and character consistency shouldn't matter as much (because "its a KIDS series")

That's not even remotely what I said?

It's a kid's series, meaning they don't portray Eggman's actions with the kind of consequences they'd have in real life. Everything's softened. They do, in fact, shy away from portraying Eggman's actions as monstrous and destructive.

Acknowledging that the series is primarily aimed at kids and that affects how they portray things is not the same as saying "it's for kids so it doesn't matter".

[Dr. Mechano]

58 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I said its inconsistent, not that its out of nowhere.

Okay, people are inconsistent. Tails acknowledges his own inconsistency in-universe in Frontiers. 

Though yeah, with that said, if Eggman's already been flipping between caring for his creations and being largely indifferent to them, then kudos to Frontiers for picking one side to firmly establish for his characterization going forward.

As long as they commit to it - and with how hard they went on the Eggdad thing, complete with him calling Sage his daughter and even giving us an emotional ending song about what a loving family they are, it's hard to imagine them not committing to it at this point - then this inconsistency will effectively be resolved anyway.

[Kuzu]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's not even remotely what I said?

It's a kid's series, meaning they don't portray Eggman's actions with the kind of consequences they'd have in real life. Everything's softened. They do, in fact, shy away from portraying Eggman's actions as monstrous and destructive.

Acknowledging that the series is primarily aimed at kids and that affects how they portray things is not the same as saying "it's for kids so it doesn't matter".

If the story is going to treat Eggman's actions seriously, then it really doesn't matter if they have actual consequences or not. (they should, but that's a different conversation). There's a million children's series that portray the actions of its villains seriously, even if they don't go to the full extreme of showing the actual consequences. 

And this isn't even getting into the children series that do in fact not stray from the consequences, so...

5 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Okay, people are inconsistent. Tails acknowledges his own inconsistency in-universe in Frontiers. 

There's a bit of a difference between being inconsistently brave and weak-willed, and inconsistently an asshole. I know biases and all, but this is the exact same thing you give Shadow so much shit for, being written as either a jackass or a heroic figure. Its fine if you prefer one over the other, but at least acknowledge the point being made. 

Quote

 

Though yeah, with that said, if Eggman's already been flipping between caring for his creations and being largely indifferent to them, then kudos to Frontiers for picking one side to firmly establish for his characterization going forward.

As long as they commit to it - and with how hard they went on the Eggdad thing, complete with him calling Sage his daughter and even giving us an emotional ending song about what a loving family they are, it's hard to imagine them not committing to it at this point - then this inconsistency will effectively be resolved anyway.

 

This series has forgotten character motivations  and consistency for almost two entire decades now, so excuse me if I'm not exactly as willing to put my faith in the writing as much as you. 

Godspeed to Ian Flynn and the staff though. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

If you read the entire post (and not just quoting the part you disagree with...) then you'd know I wasn't talking about "the nature of things" but the series as a whole with how Eggman has been portrayed.

I did read the whole post. Don't misunderstand. I just quoted the bit that stuck out the most.

My point is against your ideal as a whole that Eggman showing compassion while also conducting his usual dastardly deeds is somehow a grave matter of narrative inconsistency. 

That said, to address another point from prior:

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I guess for my part, Eggman doing such blatantly evil shit for most of the series just make the attempts to humanize and downplay those evil moments rings hollow to me. Its like congratulating someone for having the most basic of human decency.

There have not really been attempts to downplay his most evil moments. 

What they do in humanizing him? That's moreso adding extra layers to his characters. It shows that he has more to him than just mas scientist. 

Hell, one of his more heavier endeavors where he pulled off all manner of crazy terrorist actions in Aventurev2 also showcased some of his standards to a point as well.

So, it's not like the series is trying to have its cake and eat it really.

[Kuzu]

I'm kind of tired of debating about this, because its just going in circles at this point. If y'all like how Eggman is portrayed in Frontiers, then cool. Hope you're satisfied with what they do with him in the future. I don't really care if they do or not, I'm just critiquing what they gave us and think it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. 

If they do continue with this new direction, then hopefully they can strike a balance of him being sympathetic but still a dangerous threat. Or just bring in someone new altogether if they're gonna go the "Friendly Neighborhood Villain" route with him. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I mean, I actually understand that the dynamic could be better. Narratives since Unleashed have kinda taken a massive dip that the interactions don’t fully sell the father-daughter relationship between Eggman and Sage as best as they could have.

Frontiers does have hit or miss moments that feel like they’re patching holes that shouldn’t have been there could have been better characterized, but the dynamic can certainly work nonetheless—having seen it done with far more monstrous characters in other series, I can’t say there’s no way it can be done with Eggman and Sage.

Heck, people are saying that Eggman unleashing the Metal Virus makes it hard to believe he could be a character father, but I beg to differ when I’ve seen much more vicious and monstrous characters show genuine and non-abusive affection towards their loved ones.

Really, it’s mostly just the Silco/Jinx relationship from Arcane I mentioned earlier, but that alone was proof enough for me that you can believe even an evil maniac like Eggman throwing nukes, suns and plagues at the world can actually show love and caring affection.

Matter of fact, it’s kinda parallel to Gerald wanting to wipe out humanity after losing his granddaughter Maria, but in reverse—Eggman does bad things, but then creates a daughter that ends up humanizing him…while still going out to do bad things.

[Kuzu]

It'd only be a true parallel if Eggman actually became a good guy.

And I mean...you may as well just go all the way at this point. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It'd only be a true parallel if Eggman actually became a good guy.

And I mean...you may as well just go all the way at this point. 

Not really. They haven't been trying to make Eggman a good guy, so just turning him good wouldn't really work, coming out of nowhere.

[Kuzu]

They literally just gave him a daughter out of nowhere.

[Dr. Mechano]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

They literally just gave him a daughter out of nowhere.

A daughter who, despite her own nice qualities, is also a villain and totally complicit in Eggman's villainy.

She reviewed his entire campaign history and objected to precisely none of it.

[Indigo Rush]

A potential missing piece of the puzzle here which I'll happily lob into the conversation like a flaming molotov is the revelation that IDW Sonic is technically canon now. With that in mind, Sage isn't Eggman's first daughter; that'd be Belle. You can spend a lot of time dissecting the implications of how quickly Eggman took to the idea of having a daughter when his kinder and mild-mannered alter-ego did the same when building Belle, despite how much he wanted to separate himself from being Mr Tinker.