i don't see why some fans hate classic sonic in forces

[Drunk Michael Myers]

Because the gameplay and level design so far looks so dull, forced and automated.

And why are there springs at places like this? Are Sonic Team affraid people wont find the jump button? If they want to smooth out the speed without loosing movement on Sonic, why not just use the quaterpipes? That's what they where there for in the first game, to not make the game come to a dead stop before a slower part. The spring fills no function here since i bet you can't move foreward when bouncing on it like in Generations and Sonic 4(?).

[Chris Knopps]

On 6/28/2017 at 8:52 PM, Drunk Michael Myers said:

Because the gameplay and level design so far looks so dull, forced and automated.

And why are there springs at places like this? Are Sonic Team affraid people wont find the jump button? If they want to smooth out the speed without loosing movement on Sonic, why not just use the quaterpipes? That's what they where there for in the first game, to not make the game come to a dead stop before a slower part. The spring fills no function here since i bet you can't move foreward when bouncing on it like in Generations and Sonic 4(?).

Keep in mind Sonic Team's primary target is 4/5/6 to 10/11 year old's who they think can't even blow their noses right let alone play a game without the most drastic hand holding they can muster.

The tone might be altered but the target audience is clearly still the same with the stage layouts, enemy placements, etc. Everybody is a babbling baby that needs consistent supervision and over powered gimmicks or else they're apparently hopeless.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

13 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Keep in mind Sonic Team's primary target is 4/5/6 to 10/11 year old's who they think can't even blow their noses right let alone play a game without the most drastic hand holding they can muster.

The tone might be altered but the target audience is clearly still the same with the stage layouts, enemy placements, etc. Everybody is a babbling baby that needs consistent supervision and over powered gimmicks or else they're apparently hopeless.

Which is incredibly stupid...because the classic games were played by the exact same audience members...those 6-10 year olds....and they loved the progression of the games. So much so, that they're not only still playing them today, they're actually making the games now! And even better than Sonic Team!

Sonic back then had universal appeal. Sonic today has niche appeal. Whoever is responsible for trying to expand the niche, should be replaced by those who understand the universal appeal.

[Sega DogTagz]

On 6/28/2017 at 8:52 PM, Drunk Michael Myers said:

why not just use the quaterpipes?

a. that would require some semblance of physics based gameplay

b. Overpowered spindash/drop-dash would make a mockery of it

c. we can't have nice things

 

pick your poison.

[Cornelius Fudge]

Why do we keep referencing a 6 year old game to justify Sega's actions here? The reason why Generations worked was because it refined and improved upon everything that Colors and Unleashed did right and this is honestly what we want to see in Forces, improvement and something entirely new. So far, we're not getting that and it looks even worse than Generations so far honestly.

[Chris Knopps]

8 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Which is incredibly stupid...because the classic games were played by the exact same audience members...those 6-10 year olds....and they loved the progression of the games. So much so, that they're not only still playing them today, they're actually making the games now! And even better than Sonic Team!

Sonic back then had universal appeal. Sonic today has niche appeal. Whoever is responsible for trying to expand the niche, should be replaced by those who understand the universal appeal.

Takashi Iizuka

It was his grand scheme to undo everything and focus on kids starting with Colors after his "I'm in charge now motha fu@$a's!!" revelation some years back when he spouted his excuses of letting multiple folks be in charge of Sonic games being the cause of their declining quality.

Got much worse when he took everything under his wing if you ask me. I'll take Genesis - Unleashed and all the spin-off's and handheld titles from that timeline over what we've gotten from Colors to today. At least back then there was world building and character growth.

Funnily enough it wasn't until AFTER he gave someone ELSE the reins again that we got a universally heralded game through Mania and the Whitehead team. Funny how that solo-charge stuff's biting him in the butt today.

[Diogenes]

Let's not act like everything in the series was all hunky dory before Colors. And as if a lot of the changes made by Colors and adjacent games weren't due to the series' already decaying identity and a string of subpar to outright inexcusable games.

This series' problems trace back a lot further than Colors.

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Let's not act like everything in the series was all hunky dory before Colors. And as if a lot of the changes made by Colors and adjacent games weren't due to the series' already decaying identity and a string of subpar to outright inexcusable games.

This series' problems trace back a lot further than Colors.

Yes, but the worst period in terms of profit is pretty much Colors-Now though folks are free to correct me.

(I'm including the BOOM games with the main ones here too)

Even if different games sucked from time to time at least they made enough back to cover development and then some.

Nowadays it's just hoping to break even and scrounge up whatever possible from mobile cash-grabs.

[Diogenes]

And the years of stumbling and failure from even before Colors are part of what's caused that, slowly (and sometimes not so slowly) eroding away people's faith in the series with low quality games and inconsistent identities. The problems of post-Colors Sonic are less some brand new beast and more a continuation of the series' long-standing problems under a new mask.

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And the years of stumbling and failure from even before Colors are part of what's caused that, slowly (and sometimes not so slowly) eroding away people's faith in the series with low quality games and inconsistent identities. The problems of post-Colors Sonic are less some brand new beast and more a continuation of the series' long-standing problems under a new mask.

I think what I said to a member over on TSOS earlier today sums up my thoughts on what the issue now seems to be.

Quote

Being cutesy really has very little impact worldwide, it's something that works mainly for something like Kirby and Yoshi more-so than others such as Sonic and Donkey Kong as an extra example, you have to be a specific thing for that to benefit your franchise, and Sonic isn't one of those franchises that gets any benefit from it. Now being funny here and there is certainly beneficial to the Sonic franchise, but not cute. Being whimsical is another beneficial thing for the franchise, such as the stages from the Genesis titles and Mania, as far as Unleashed and Forces, those titles do seem to be striking a good balance, however I will say I don't like how Eggman is being written given his boss text. The prime concern SHOULD be appealing to teenagers and pre-teens first and foremost, because then you get both the children and adults involved/interested in the process. If you care more about making children like a product than teenagers/adults then you're only hurting your general scope/appeal and thus your profits. Sonic has never been for a specific crowd more than he has in the games since Colors released, with the only thing you could consider keeping others involved being the nostalgia trip that was Generations when you consider how everything collapsed with Lost World after that. Forces is a good first step however, it just needn't be the only step toward getting back on track with older audiences.

Quote

My point in bringing this to the table is that, from a personal perspective, I've always felt the best target for the Sonic franchise was between the ages of 12 to 17, making it a franchise that appeals to kids, but is clearly more intent on the teenage and early adult demographics.

A franchise that is spiritually youthful, but knows it needs to be something more than for the youngest audience, a franchise that parents raise a wary eyebrow toward, not sure if they should buy it, but kids just have to have because it's cool and it's what the rebel teens are into.

A franchise that takes older players back to their own teenage lives, when fighting against the norm and doing things your own way was the only way to live.

I feel if the franchise cancels out its 4-10 focus and returns to fighting for the demographic it once did during the Genesis and Adventure - Unleashed timelines the franchise will finally spread out once again, it will bring in the new generation because it's what the older generations, the teens and adults, just HAVE to play because it's so darn rebellious and cool!

 

[Diogenes]

The mistake is in thinking that post-Adventure Sonic was successfully appealing to the same demographic as pre-Adventure Sonic. There was overlap, no doubt, but that era also drove off plenty of people and attracted new people due to things that weren't in line with the Genesis style. Essentially the same thing has happened with the post-Colors direction, only now it's Adventure era fans being left behind by the series' shifting identity. Same shit, new mask.

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The mistake is in thinking that post-Adventure Sonic was successfully appealing to the same demographic as pre-Adventure Sonic. There was overlap, no doubt, but that era also drove off plenty of people and attracted new people due to things that weren't in line with the Genesis style. Essentially the same thing has happened with the post-Colors direction, only now it's Adventure era fans being left behind by the series' shifting identity. Same shit, new mask.

It's far from it actually. Thanks to the demographic targets the franchise remained a success and widely in the public eye. Following the Colors, essential re-boot of everything from tone to WHO the franchise is meant for, everything has fallen to a more bare-minimum degree than I recall ever witnessing between Adventure-Unleashed.

It lost its wide-ranging appeal when it became specifically for children, and quite young ones at that. Despite the gripes with game play variations and the like, at least back in the day any age could play Sonic without, basically, feeling ridiculous for doing so. Granted there were games that caused problems like Shadow and 06, but by and large even when they went a route ala Heroes the appeal was towards more demographics than the one they exclusively focus on today.

The content was everywhere perhaps, but so was the variety in consumers. Some may have taken a back seat, but lets not forget there WAS the Advance and Rush games catering to Genesis fans albeit with the modern looks.

Appeal was everywhere because the demographic was higher up than it is today. They could do more, they weren't limited by "expectations" of what would or wouldn't be too hard for the children to play and/or understand they target as they are today.

[Sega DogTagz]

36 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Yes, but the worst period in terms of profit is pretty much Colors-Now though folks are free to correct me.

(I'm including the BOOM games with the main ones here too)

Even if different games sucked from time to time at least they made enough back to cover development and then some.

Nowadays it's just hoping to break even and scrounge up whatever possible from mobile cash-grabs.

You say that like units are not still selling though.

Generations easily sold north of a few million units. I don't think we've seen numbers like that since... Unleashed? Colors sold over two million as well, which is quite an achievement considering that third party games don't sell on the Wii. Even Lost World put up sales figures that were on par or better than comparable third party titles at the time. The Boom games were really the only ones in the time period that would have managed to leave a deficit in the pocketbook, and thats before you even consider the financially useful ventures in the digital space like the Sonic 4 series. Those games were low budget and also cleared the million mark with room to spare.

Sonic games haven't been bottom-feeding by any means in the sales department. Outside of Boom, the figures remain healthy and the digital tittles started a new venture of profitability. Sega's hardly looking to "break even" with Sonic. Thats a gross oversimplification and you know it. They push the mobile front because its profitable and the exposure has proven to be humongous. Not because the pennies they get from colors/gens/lost world arn't enough to cover Forces.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You say that like units are not still selling though.

Generations easily sold north of a few million units. I don't think we've seen numbers like that since... Unleashed? Colors sold over two million as well, which is quite an achievement considering that third party games don't sell on the Wii. Even Lost World put up sales figures that were on par or better than comparable third party titles at the time. The Boom games were really the only ones in the time period that would have managed to leave a deficit in the pocketbook, and thats before you even consider the financially useful ventures in the digital space like the Sonic 4 series. Those games were low budget and also cleared the million mark with room to spare.

Sonic games haven't been bottom-feeding by any means in the sales department. Outside of Boom, the figures remain healthy and the digital tittles started a new venture of profitability. Sega's hardly looking to "break even" with Sonic. Thats a gross oversimplification and you know it. They push the mobile front because its profitable and the exposure has proven to be humongous. Not because the pennies they get from colors/gens/lost world arn't enough to cover Forces.

Lost World, you're forgetting that game only sold some 700k for the longest time.

Generations only sold a bit over 1M if memory serves.

The games are still only breaking even if lucky nonetheless.

As far as mobile, those are cheap, if not FREE games, re-releases mostly, with most revenue coming from ads and gambling gimmicks.

I fail to see that as a good argument. Of course people will pick up a free or $5 mobile game, it does nothing to help if console titles still barely sell. It supports my side of the argument that Sonic isn't appealing because folks don't fork out full price meaning the franchise isn't worth it to mobile players.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Despite the gripes with game play variations and the like, at least back in the day any age could play Sonic without, basically, feeling ridiculous for doing so.

You're aware that this era includes Shadow the Hedgehog, a game that everyone should feel ridiculous for playing, right? Like I know you mention the game but I don't see how anyone can seriously say that this is something anyone not a dyed-in-the-wool Adventure era fanboy can watch without cringing.

Really, the series lost its mass appeal when it started focusing on Sonic Adventure fans. SA was a pretty radical shift for the series, the following games doubled down on the new direction while stripping out what remained of the old, and it alienated a lot of people. This was the era when Sonic games and Sonic fans became punchlines.

[Sega DogTagz]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

Lost World, you're forgetting that.

Generations only sold a bit over 1M if memory serves.

The games are still only breaking even if lucky nonetheless.

I didn't forget LW. Its right there in the post. It sold exactly what 3rd party titles like it sell on the Wiiu. Nothing more nothing less. To misinterpret that as poor sales is less to do with that number and more to do with a misunderstanding of the environment that it released on.

As for Gens, your memory fails you. But I can't hold it against you as its notoriously hard to find decent data on it. Unreliable sites like VGcharts put its worldwide totals north of 4 million, which to me is a stretch. Most sites throw it in the 2 - 3 million range. If you are looking for a more reliable figure, good ol' Wikipedia puts Generations at 1.85 million in early 2012; with the notable omission of any Steam sales. More then enough to confidently say Gens pushed at least 2 mil.

 

So yeah. The core entries in the Sonic franchise are not hurting for sales. Even if they have slid a bit from the 3rd party hay-day bolstered by Heroes and Unleashed, the numbers are still far beyond profitable - and that's before we start talking Sonic 4 E I and II. The mobile games are hardly a desperate cash grab in the wake of units sitting on store shelves collecting dust. Don't let your hateboner for all things modern sonic cloud your judgement so easily.

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You're aware that this era includes Shadow the Hedgehog, a game that everyone should feel ridiculous for playing, right?

 

Shadow the Hedgehog is a part of THIS era...?

Whatever floats your boat Dio...

Quote

Like I know you mention the game but I don't see how anyone can seriously say that this is something anyone not a dyed-in-the-wool Adventure era fanboy can watch without cringing.

Funnily enough a lot of videos revolving that title has views in the millions and far more likes than dislikes... Kind of hurts your argument Dio. It wasn't the most heralded game by any means but it certainly isn't lacking popularity despite critical and/or "diehard Sonic fan" criticism.

Quote

Really, the series lost its mass appeal when it started focusing on Sonic Adventure fans. SA was a pretty radical shift for the series, the following games doubled down on the new direction while stripping out what remained of the old, and it alienated a lot of people. This was the era when Sonic games and Sonic fans became punchlines.

I wish @Nepenthe would join in on that argument. I feel more appeal has been lost post Colors than any point in the series existence, again, despite the missteps with Shadow and 06.

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I didn't forget LW. Its right there in the post. It sold exactly what 3rd party titles like it sell on the Wiiu. Nothing more nothing less. To misinterpret that as poor sales is less to do with that number and more to do with a misunderstanding of the environment that it released on.

Are you forgetting Lost World is also on PC and didn't do so well on it either?

Quote

As for Gens, your memory fails you. But I can't hold it against you as its notoriously hard to find decent data on it. Unreliable sites like VGcharts put its worldwide totals north of 4 million, which to me is a stretch. Most sites throw it in the 2 - 3 million range. If you are looking for a more reliable figure, good ol' Wikipedia puts Generations at 1.85 million in early 2012; with the notable omission of any Steam sales. More then enough to confidently say Gens pushed at least 2 mil.

I still believe it generally stayed in the 1M range, though if it did surpass 2M then granted that's not bad.

Quote

So yeah. The core entries in the Sonic franchise are not hurting for sales. Even if they have slid a bit from the 3rd party hay-day bolstered by Heroes and Unleashed, the numbers are still far beyond profitable - and that's before we start talking Sonic 4 E I and II. The mobile games are hardly a desperate cash grab in the wake of units sitting on store shelves collecting dust. Don't let your hateboner for all things modern sonic cloud your judgement so easily.

I don't have a hate boner for all things Modern Sonic, if I did then I wouldn't play any of the Modern games. My issue is with the demographic and how it has devolved the franchise and stripped it to the bare minimum in content, and that's not going into how terribly it ruined the characters and likewise scripts of the series.

The mobiles games ARE cash grabs, otherwise the roulette feature would have never happened in Runners.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Shadow the Hedgehog is a part of THIS era...?

The era in question, the era we were discussing at that point in time. This era that you are referring to in the quote I was responding to. I shouldn't have to lead you to this.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Funnily enough a lot of videos revolving that title has views in the millions and far more likes than dislikes... Kind of hurts your argument Dio. It wasn't the most heralded game by any means but it certainly isn't lacking popularity despite critical and/or "diehard Sonic fan" criticism.

Are you seriously going to sit here and try to tell me that ShtH is a good and well liked thing and not an embarrassment.

Because if you are I cannot take this shit seriously.

[Wraith]

Sonic is doing better than any platform series has any right to in this modern age. His games are pretty consistent in sales. Despite what people want to have you believe about their preferred direction, there's no sales slump until you get to the Wii U titles, and that explains itself. The rest float comfortably within the 1.5-2 million range with some spikes for the bigger games and some valleys for the less popular ones.

This is a wikipedia article, but their sources are from sega's own reports. The games are doing about as well as they've always have. There seems to not really be any "secret" here aside from not making garbage and releasing on platforms a lot of people have access to.

Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces are probably going to do fine on the financial front, so there's not much point in arguing there.
 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Are you seriously going to sit here and try to tell me that ShtH is a good and well liked thing and not an embarrassment.

Because if you are I cannot take this shit seriously.

I'm not saying it's good per-se, no, I'm saying it DOES have it's own following/fan base.

Kind of an occult click if you will, that's all.

It's funny how your only argument is the typical Shadow "in your face" direction, come on. I've said countless times there should be more originality in stuff like this.

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

Sonic is doing better than any platform series has any right to in this modern age. His games are pretty consistent in sales. Despite what people want to have you believe about their preferred direction, there's no sales slump until you get to the Wii U titles, and that explains itself. The rest float comfortably within the 1.5-2 million range with some spikes for the bigger games and some valleys for the less populars.

This is a wikipedia article, but their sources are from sega's own reports. The games are doing about as well as they've always have. There seems to not really be any "secret" here aside from not making garbage and releasing on platforms a lot of people have access to.

I'd still like to point out that Lost World is also on PC and still didn't fare well I don't believe, though thank you for the list there Josh, much appreciated. ^^

[Sega DogTagz]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Are you forgetting Lost World is also on PC and didn't do so well on it either?

Even Gens was pedestrian on the PC. Thats not even a metric we should be using. They really only put it there because dev kits are basically PC's and it doesn't cost much to port it over. Anything they did sell on it was essentially profit from what went into the WiiU version anyway.

 

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

I still believe it generally stayed in the 1M range, though if it did surpass 2M then granted that's not bad.

We know it hit 1.85 mil in early 2012. So basically it would have to sell another 150,000k in the four years since. Plus it was released on Steam in that time-span.

If I was a betting man I'd take the action on it being over safely over 2 Mil. That's easy money.

 

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

The mobiles games ARE cash grabs, otherwise the roulette feature would have never happened in Runners.

I agree they are cash grabs. That much is obvious. I just don't want to see you throwing shade on the sales of the Sonic series as the motivation for that cash grab. The sales numbers do not support your point of view on that.

The cash grab is a result of greed. Or possibly even indifference. Maybe even just cunning business strategy run amok. But the last thing they are is some kind of stopgap to bleeding software sales. Thats just not the case.

[Chris Knopps]

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I agree they are cash grabs. That much is obvious. I just don't want to see you throwing shade on the sales of the Sonic series as the motivation for that cash grab. The sales numbers do not support your point of view on that.

The cash grab is a result of greed. Or possibly even indifference. Maybe even just cunning business strategy run amok. But the last thing they are is some kind of stopgap to bleeding software sales. Thats just not the case.

Glad we've a common ground on this.

I don't LIKE having the notion the mobile games being what they are due to failing profits of console/main titles, it's just something that has started nagging me the way reception and figures of the series have looked as of late. Though there is credit to the Wii U exclusivity issues, I still can't help but feel a Sonic game like Lost World and the like wouldn't have fared well on Microsoft/Sony consoles, the current demographic doesn't look/feel right for those markets.

Though that could be why Forces is baby-stepping its way to an older, more mature demographic since it's multi-plat and will thus likely fit in better on those consoles with the "darker" and somewhat more serious direction it's going.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Glad we've a common ground on this.

I don't LIKE having the notion the mobile games being what they are due to failing profits of console/main titles, it's just something that has started nagging me as of late the way reception and figures of the series have looked as of late. Though there is credit to the Wii U exclusivity issues, I still can't help but feel a Sonic game like Lost World and the like wouldn't have fared well on Microsoft/Sony consoles, the current demographic doesn't look/feel right for those markets.

Though that could be why Forces is baby-stepping its way to an older, more mature demographic with Forces since it's multi-plat and will thus likely fit in better on those consoles.

Well, asking yourself that kind of question is like comparing apples and oranges. Lost World was built from the ground up as a Nintendo exclusive for a Nintendo market. Pondering whether or not it would have appealed to a broader PS360 market is like wondering if your Drag Radial tires would do any good for your rock climbing dune buggy. It wasn't designed for that because it wasn't supposed to be.  Had it been a multi-plat, I think its safe to say that it may not have ended up in the same form that we see today.

Sure, every once and awhile you'll get a game like Zelda, where despite it being designed for a Nintendo crowd, would fare fine on other consoles to boot. But that's more of a case by case basis. I can't imagine the PS3 God of War series or the 360 Gears of War series getting any traction on a WiiU for example. It just wasn't designed with that in mind.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Well, asking yourself that kind of question is like comparing apples and oranges. Lost World was built from the ground up as a Nintendo exclusive for a Nintendo market. Pondering whether or not it would have appealed to a broader PS360 market is like wondering if your Drag Radial tires would do any good for your rock climbing dune buggy. It wasn't designed for that because it wasn't supposed to be.  Had it been a multi-plat, I think its safe to say that it may not have ended up in the same form that we see today.

Sure, every once and awhile you'll get a game like Zelda, where despite it being designed for a Nintendo crowd, would fare fine on other consoles to boot. But that's more of a case by case basis. I can't imagine the PS3 God of War series or the 360 Gears of War series getting any traction on a WiiU for example. It just wasn't designed with that in mind.

True...

Not bad... You're pretty interesting to have in a discussion. Though that also goes for @Diogenes despite how frequently and extremely our thoughts differ.

[Blacklightning]

I'm probably a little late to this but

On 30/06/2017 at 1:33 PM, Chris Knopps said:

Keep in mind Sonic Team's primary target is 4/5/6 to 10/11 year old's who they think can't even blow their noses right let alone play a game without the most drastic hand holding they can muster.

The tone might be altered but the target audience is clearly still the same with the stage layouts, enemy placements, etc. Everybody is a babbling baby that needs consistent supervision and over powered gimmicks or else they're apparently hopeless.

I feel like I can speak from experience and say this is underselling how adaptable even young children can be. I was four years old when I played Sonic & Knuckles for the first time, and the only place I ever considered myself truly stuck was the midboss for Flying Battery. It's incredibly easy to overgeneralize the younger generations today as though videogames are only playable to them when they're coddled and babysat through it, but I honestly can't tell you a single one of them from memory that are so dense that they can't figure their way around a chest high wall without trying every button and realizing they can hold jump and right at the same time - even if some will get it slower than others.

And you know what? I'll also admit that I struggled with the Mushroom Hill boss back then too, but I did not give the slightest semblance of a fuck because I was still enjoying myself regardless. Isn't that what ultimately matters when you get right down to it? Us older gamers are obsessed with perfectionism because we know how these kinds of games tick and we know we can do better, but to younger players everything is a new experience and a new achievement - most of them are happy enough if they make it just a little further each time they try.