i don't see why some fans hate classic sonic in forces

[FlameStream]

Well, today's generation is much more different than you when you were a kid (assuming that you're a generation Y). The majority of the ones I've observed are not thrilled by the concept of challenge and will turn over to something else very promptly. I'd even go further and say that it's likely the opinion of the majority of older gamers. "I don't want to sit down with a game that will give me grief" is a kind of comment that I hear often too.

The reason for this is because there are plenty of other games available that will make them happy, and those are probably pretty gratifying.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

2 hours ago, FlameStream said:

Well, today's generation is much more different than you when you were a kid (assuming that you're a generation Y). The majority of the ones I've observed are not thrilled by the concept of challenge and will turn over to something else very promptly. I'd even go further and say that it's likely the opinion of the majority of older gamers. "I don't want to sit down with a game that will give me grief" is a kind of comment that I hear often too.

The reason for this is because there are plenty of other games available that will make them happy, and those are probably pretty gratifying.

Well...the classic games are not very "challenging" by any stretch of the imagination. Sure the few time you play you're going to suck but the reason they became popular is because they were easy to learn and encouraged one to master the mechanics and get better. Any 8 year old kid who plays Sonic 1-3K is going to beat the game that same week, guaranteed.

[GucciBurr]

4 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Well...the classic games are not very "challenging" by any stretch of the imagination. Sure the few time you play you're going to suck but the reason they became popular is because they were easy to learn and encouraged one to master the mechanics and get better. Any 8 year old kid who plays Sonic 1-3K is going to beat the game that same week, guaranteed.

i think a lot of people couldn't get past the barrel in carnival night tho lol

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

14 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Takashi Iizuka

It was his grand scheme to undo everything and focus on kids starting with Colors after his "I'm in charge now motha fu@$a's!!" revelation some years back when he spouted his excuses of letting multiple folks be in charge of Sonic games being the cause of their declining quality.

Got much worse when he took everything under his wing if you ask me. I'll take Genesis - Unleashed and all the spin-off's and handheld titles from that timeline over what we've gotten from Colors to today.

I don't want to pile on here but the Adventure games are most notable for where Sonic's public reputation began to suffer, culminating with the infamous '06. Sonic Adventure 2: Battle and Sonic Heroes were the first main series Sonic games ever to receive medicore critical reviews and the public definitely took notice. The quality began to dip there and in the eyes of the public didn't raise again until Sonic Colors.

I'm saying this as a big fan of Sonic Adventure 1, that those games started the decline of Sonic's public reputation. It was not done overnight.

1 minute ago, GucciBurr said:

i think a lot of people couldn't get past the barrel in carnival night tho lol

It still surprises me to hear that. I played in back then and had no trouble with it at all, and I was a little kid. I think the first day I had the game home I made it all the way to Launch Base...though I got like no emeralds.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

1 minute ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I don't want to pile on here but the Adventure games are most notable for where Sonic's public reputation began to suffer, culminating with the infamous '06. Sonic Adventure 2: Battle and Sonic Heroes were the first main series Sonic games ever to receive medicore critical reviews and the public definitely took notice. The quality began to dip there and in the eyes of the public didn't raise again until Sonic Colors.

I'm saying this as a big fan of Sonic Adventure 1, that those games started the decline of Sonic's public reputation. It was not done overnight.

Even if they retroactively changed this, wasn't Sonic 3D Blast considered a "main series" Sonic game when it was released? Not that I don't agree with your broad points.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Just now, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Even if they retroactively changed this, wasn't Sonic 3D Blast considered a "main series" Sonic game when it was released? Not that I don't agree with your broad points.

It couldn't be. It was developed by Traveller's Tales, not the main Sonic Team. It was a game that was rushed out as a stopgap to the next main title, SA1, which then had already started production.

[Chris Knopps]

Frankly back in the Adventure days I doubt many gave a rats @$$ about critics, back them gamers judged more for themselves rather than mindlessly worshiping a handful of so called "professional" opinions of the title hence the sales and acclaim of the title from consumers.

Hell, just look back at the revelation of Sonic Adventure 2 on modern consoles.

Lets see...

How many games post-Colors have gotten this? Not even Forces had this reaction.

[Wraith]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Frankly back in the Adventure days I doubt many gave a rats @$$ about critics, back them gamers judged more for themselves rather than mindlessly worshiping a handful of so called "professional" opinions of the title hence the sales and acclaim of the title from consumers.

Hell, just look back at the revelation of Sonic Adventure 2 on modern consoles.

Lets see...

How many games post-Colors titles have gotten this? Not even Forces had this reaction.

 

 

[Chris Knopps]

2 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

 

I don't think its on par. When he said "It's not Project 2017" folks went crazy but then during the actual trailer it was more toned down. Classic got a good shout but not quite as enthusiastic still nonetheless.

[Tara]

I'm not sure why arbitrary factors like YouTube likes and the unquantifiable quality of a crowd's reaction during a live event are being used as an actual barometer for the success of the series.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

49 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I don't think its on par. When he said "It's not Project 2017" folks went crazy but then during the actual trailer it was more toned down. Classic got a good shout but not quite as enthusiastic still nonetheless.

I understand that those are some of your favorite games but I don't think that's at all a proper way to measure the reception of a series.

There are a ton of Adventure fans but they are not the only people that buy Sonic games or review Sonic games. There are tons of others and the reception for those games vary wildly depending upon who you talk to; for every person who thinks Sonic Adventure 2 is the best 3D Sonic game ever, you'll be likely to find at least one person that think it's one of the worst 3D Sonic games. That's called "polarizing", and its quite different than a game having overwhelmingly positive reactions and impressions.

Sales and wider critical reception are really the only ways to track that on large scales. None of this is purely objective. The best we can do is reference to other things we have seen before or commend based on the ingenuity of an idea.

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

6 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Hell, just look back at the revelation of Sonic Adventure 2 on modern console

Ey? People did go nuts for Project 2017s reveal... they even went nuts at just a title reveal at SXSW.

In fact the largest cheer during that reveal was when they said it was the Colours and Generations team making the game.

Can you show me a fan specific event in which something was announced that didn't get a reaction like that?

But this is a really daft way to try and gauge any reaction. "This sounds louder". Well yeah if your camera has a naff Mic on it then it is going to sound a lot louder and crazy than a better recording device.

[Marco9966]

On 7/1/2017 at 11:26 PM, Chris Knopps said:

Frankly back in the Adventure days I doubt many gave a rats @$$ about critics, back them gamers judged more for themselves rather than mindlessly worshiping a handful of so called "professional" opinions of the title hence the sales and acclaim of the title from consumers.

Hell, just look back at the revelation of Sonic Adventure 2 on modern consoles.

Lets see...

How many games post-Colors have gotten this? Not even Forces had this reaction.

Look at this reception, SEGA doesnt know the potential of SA3.

Sonic Adventure 3 would undeniably be the biggest Sonic seller if made, even more than Mania!!

The reason Sonic Team won't do SA3 is because they have shit physics on their new games, boost physics sucks and we can't control Sonic.

Just do SA3 with Renderware, I'm sure most people will accept the 2000s graphics!

I mean, Sonic Forces has Sonic 2006 level graphics.

So making SA3 with Renderware should be the best decision SEGA could make (Mania was made with early 90's graphics after all...)

[Dr. Detective]

I didn't even want him in Generations. I tolerated it and didn't complain too much because, hey, it's Sonic's 20th birthday and it was a cute idea. Admittedly, as far as gimmicks go, it's certainly one of the more understandable ones.

That said, my hopes for the future were that they'd stop using him as a crutch and try their hardest to mold Modern Sonic into something that was comfortable standing on it's own. There was some of that in the foundation for him with the Adventure games and even Heroes (despite the obvious inspiration from the classic aesthetic making its way into the levels). It definitely could have used some work but instead of fixing it, they wore it down even further and eventually doubled back on it sometime after Unleashed, probably feeling as though a more classic feel rather than classic quality was what everyone wanted.

I'm glad Classic fans have Mania and hopefully more and more sequels are to come. Not only does it make them happy but it stands as a glaring example of just how unnecessary forcing Classic Sonic and all these 2D elements into your 3D Modern Sonic game truly is. 

Now that they've acknowledged that Modern and Classic are their own universes, they're going to be put to task when it comes to treating them as such from now on.

That fucking Forces reveal trailer still makes me mad. I was so excited, sweaty, and hyped and then 58 seconds in, right before it finished,  Classic Sonic shows up and immediately all that shit flew out the window. It was like I was being presented with a case of $1 Million dollars and I opened it up to reveal an autographed picture of Ken Penders.

[Tracker_TD]

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

- Post -

None of what you just said means anything if the game were a load of wank. 

Quote

Look at this reception, SEGA doesnt know the potential of SA3.

SEGA is probably well aware people want 'SA3', it's just for one reason or another they'd rather pursue other ventures. 

Quote

Sonic Adventure 3 would undeniably be the biggest Sonic seller if made, even more than Mania!!

Based on what? The name alone? 

That and as Forces has shown, decent sales don't exactly go for much if the game's wank. 

Quote

The reason Sonic Team won't do SA3 is because they have shit physics on their new games, boost physics sucks and we can't control Sonic.

The reason Sonic Team won't do SA3 is because... they don't want to? Shit, Sonic Unleashed was almost called Sonic Adventure 3, so it's evidently not a matter of gameplay engine to them.

Quote

Just do SA3 with Renderware, I'm sure most people will accept the 2000s graphics!

No they won't. 

Quote

I mean, Sonic Forces has Sonic 2006 level graphics.

No it doesn't. While Forces' artstyle is somewhat dire, on technical level (and honestly even on an aesthetic level) it boots 06 in the nads about five times over. 

Quote

So making SA3 with Renderware should be the best decision SEGA could make (Mania was made with early 90's graphics after all...)

Mania's graphics are a tribute to the Saturn era, but it's done tastefully and informed from a wider array of sources such as Treasure titles and the pop-art like nature of old Sonic media. It's not just appreciated because "it's old lol".

...that and why would SEGA use an engine so antiquated that you literally can't buy it anymore? Especially after the likely hefty amount of resources poured into Hedgehog Engine 2? 

 

What this boils down to is it's a load of stock put in a name - because everyone seems to have a different idea of what they want 'SA3' to be, so pinning down the potential in what could be anything is nigh impossible. 

 

[knuckles20]

Given no one said it, the biggest reason I couldn’t stand CS in Forces because during the first trailer I really thought they would finally got their crap together and have other characters playable in a “3D” main Sonic game. But instead they throw in Sonic 2 and a fill in the blank character.

That trailer played out like “Hey all you fans of the Adventure Era, you want a story that’s more serious? You want a game that’s gonna be actually in 3D? You want your favorite heroes to get off their asses and finally be playable alongside Sonic after a decade since having a meaningful role that goes beyond being glorified cheerleaders? Well fuck you! Even though we just announced an entire game devoted to classic Sonic, here he is again because we can’t have a game that doesn’t suck up to “Sonic roots” for the millionth fucking time. Enjoy your 3D game that’ll have consist more of 2D and the characters who aren’t a blue hedgehog do jack all nothing!”

If I stopped playing the games because of Generations why would I put money down for Generations 2?

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Look at this reception, SEGA doesnt know the potential of SA3.

People went nuts for Project 2017s reveal... they even went nuts at just a title reveal at SXSW.

In fact the largest cheer during that reveal was when they said it was the Colours and Generations team making the game.

 

Can you show me a fan specific event in which something was announced that didn't get a reaction like that?

 

That's what I wrote back on July 2nd 2017. Nearly a year after it's topic bump nobody has lol.

Quote

I mean, Sonic Forces has Sonic 2006 level graphics.

Even when you pick a dark and messy looking scene from Forces it still looks light years better than Sonic 06.

lol This comparison is even more funny when you remember how from Generations through to Forces uses a completely different graphics code/engine compared to 06's.

It's downright hysterical when you remember the game is targeted for PS4 Pro & Xbox Enhanced to claim it's at Sonic 06 level.

[knuckles20]

@Mayor D sure people were cheering in the video but that didn’t stop people whether on YouTube comments or various forums from raging like hell the moment CS showed up.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Just now, knuckles20 said:

@Mayor D sure people were cheering in the video but that didn’t stop people whether on YouTube comments or various forums from raging like hell the moment CS showed up.

Mmmmhmmm... And what does that have to do with me replying with this...

Can you show me a fan specific event in which something was announced that didn't get a reaction like that?

 

To people who posted the PS3/Xbox 360 Sonic Adventure port announcements as being proof that SA3 would sell like warm cookies?

[Tara]

Are we doing that thing where we cite crowd response as though it were a statistical barometer again?

Because that's still not a quantifiable or objective form of analysis.

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

Given no one said it, the biggest reason I couldn’t stand CS in Forces because during the first trailer I really thought they would finally got their crap together and have other characters playable in a “3D” main Sonic game. But instead they throw in Sonic 2 and a fill in the blank character.

That trailer played out like “Hey all you fans of the Adventure Era, you want a story that’s more serious? You want a game that’s gonna be actually in 3D? You want you favorite heroes to get off their asses and finally be playable alongside Sonic after a decade since having a meaningful role that goes beyond being glorified cheerleaders? Well fuck you! Even though we just announced an entire game devoted to classic Sonic, here he is again because we can’t have a game that doesn’t suck up “Sonic roots” millionth fucking time. Enjoy your 3D game that’ll have consist more of 2D and the characters who aren’t a blue hedgehog do jack all nothing!”

If I stopped playing the games because of Generations why would I put money down for Generations 2?

I agree, and I sincerely hope Modern repays the favor in a Mania sequel...

[Dr. Detective]

2 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

Given no one said it, the biggest reason I couldn’t stand CS in Forces because during the first trailer I really thought they would finally got their crap together and have other characters playable in a “3D” main Sonic game. But instead they throw in Sonic 2 and a fill in the blank character.

When the tagline "But even heroes need help" came on screen, for the half-second before Classic Sonic showed up, I seriously considered that, maybe, it might have been an announcement of a playable 3D Tails. 

For like half a second a spark of hope was ignited and extinguished in the blink of an eye.

 

[The Deleter]

21 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I agree, and I sincerely hope Modern repays the favor in a Mania sequel...

I think that'd backfire on your expectations in more ways than you realize :V

• Mania has competent gameplay designers that could put him to work in a lot of new ways
• It's a series that isn't starved for attention towards other characters, nor a series that throws them by the wayside once a new character appears yet
• It's a series with a very small amount of characters that need attention in the first place to satisfy
• And they'd have a team of fan-favorite animators and spriters to bring the concept to life

Nobody would be clamoring for it, exactly, but I don't think there'd be that much fuss about it at all. It'd basically be Generations 3: Pixel Edition, but it could also have some sort of hook that could sell people on it. Doubly so if it brought characters like the Chaotix back into the fray, and gave them a good 2D workover once again.

[Nicky Nicardo]

I know this is very late, but what the heck. I definitely understand why people didn't like Classic Sonic in Forces, be it for his inclusion in a 3D Sonic game at all or because they hated the way he controlled... but for me, I had no problems with him. His levels were fun to play, and I honestly found his controls to be the best and easiest to get ahold of out of the 3 play styles - I had more fun with the Avatar because that was the main draw of Forces for me, but I still felt that Classic played the best. His role in the storyline didn't bother me either because to me, hey, it made as much sense as anything else that happens in a Sonic the Hedgehog game. It didn't seem out of place or 'weird' in any kind of way, AND when he left at the end of the game, that ish made me cry. So major points for that alone. xD

This is all coming from someone who hasn't touched a Modern Sonic game since Sonic Adventure 2 back in the day, so I personally can't vouch for how well Classic controls in comparison to Generations or even Mania as I've never played those games and have no real desire to. I do trust that the general consensus that he controls MUCH better in those games is valid and most likely true, though - I'll just have to take the word of rational, level-headed people who say as much since I won't really know for myself.

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, FriesWithoutKetchup said:

AND when he left at the end of the game, that ish made me cry. So major points for that alone. xD

Interesting. Well, I'm glad someone enjoyed it.

I'm a fairly easy person to get crying but I found that scene hard to watch more because I felt embarrassed for Tails. 

He's a fictional character, I know, but seeing him longingly stick his hand out for Classic Sonic as he disappeared while gasping in sadness was like watching someone bomb at putting on a 1st Grade school play.

"No. Don't leave me, Other Sonic. My dream of having an All Sonic harem will never come true now..."