solution to the scripted/autopilot loops

[GucciBurr]

2 minutes ago, MegasonicZX said:

Yeah but they might as well be though, there are very few sections in modern sonic games where the enemies actually challenge you in a homing attack chain which is why they feel so dull in comparison to other parts of a level since it just boils down to mashing the homing attack button a couple of times before you reach the other side.

that keeps it fast paced though. at least they require some input from the player. it was easy to destroy enemies in the genesis games too

it shouldn't be such a hassle to destroy enemies; games like heroes, shadow and sonic 2006 tried to make destroying enemies more challenging by adding health bars and sections where you couldn't proceed unless you destroyed everything, which was terrible as that ruined the flow. 

[JezMM]

It just seems to be arbitrary semantics though on what is and isn't "playing itself" though.  When Sonic grabs onto a lipzline and it flings him around in a circle while Chemical Plant blows up around him towards the end of the stage in Sonic Generations, realistically that would take a great amount of action and energy on his part to keep a hold of that zipline as it does so - but the game requires no input from the player to do so.  It's just for spectacle.  Loops are the same deal, they don't consider them necessary for interaction to be required.  (Unless they do something more interesting with them such as have items to collect that can be missed, places to jump off, momentum to gain etc).

If they're just going to be continued to use for spectacle, the only thing you gain from painstakingly programming them to not run on automatic is the "ability" to stop halfway up and fall down if you really want to.  Fun stuff, totally worth the effort.

[GucciBurr]

17 minutes ago, JezMM said:

It just seems to be arbitrary semantics though on what is and isn't "playing itself" though.

it's not. when a game plays itself, literally nothing you do has any effect on what's happening. when  input is required from the player to proceed in the level, even as little as spamming the A button, then it's not playing itself

17 minutes ago, JezMM said:

When Sonic grabs onto a lipzline and it flings him around in a circle while Chemical Plant blows up around him towards the end of the stage in Sonic Generations, realistically that would take a great amount of action and energy on his part to keep a hold of that zipline as it does so - but the game requires no input from the player to do so. 

that's playing itself

17 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Loops are the same deal, they don't consider them necessary for interaction to be required.

they should be required, is what i'm saying

17 minutes ago, JezMM said:

If they're just going to be continued to use for spectacle, the only thing you gain from painstakingly programming them to not run on automatic is the "ability" to stop halfway up and fall down if you really want to.  Fun stuff, totally worth the effort.

do you think the sega all star racing games would have been better if the loops were automatic?

if you answer is no, then i don't see why you think main sonic games wouldn't be better if the loops weren't automatic

[MegasonicZX]

57 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

that keeps it fast paced though. at least they require some input from the player. it was easy to destroy enemies in the genesis games too

it shouldn't be such a hassle to destroy enemies; games like heroes, shadow and sonic 2006 tried to make destroying enemies more challenging by adding health bars and sections where you couldn't proceed unless you destroyed everything, which was terrible as that ruined the flow. 

But its not meaningful input is what i'm saying, sure it requires action from the player but when its something so simple with little to no thought really needed in the first place it makes you wonder why they're there to begin with. And I never said anything about giving enemies health or making it more of a hassle to take them down, i'm just giving you my stance on why homing attack chains aren't very engaging mechanics, nothing more and nothing less.

[JezMM]

41 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

do you think the sega all star racing games would have been better if the loops were automatic?

if you answer is no, then i don't see why you think main sonic games wouldn't be better if the loops weren't automatic

False equivelance.  In ASR, the loops are wide and interactions with other racers continue in the exact same way that they do when not on a loop.

In 3D Sonic games... Sonic just goes round the loop and you usually watch from a cool angle.  Having to push forward to do so wouldn't change this fact in any way.

And in fact, the ASR example illustrates my main point here - in those games, stuff happens on the loop, you don't just watch, so it makes sense for them to be programmed properly.  If they gave you stuff to do with the loops in the main games, I agree wholeheartedly that they should be programmed properly.  But if they're just going to continue to use them for spectacle, then it's pointless to put that amount of programming energy into them.

By your definition, making a Sonic game where you literally just hold down the A button and Sonic does the whole level, jumping, dodging and everything, would be "not playing itself" as long as he stops doing that when you let go of A.  The issue is far more nuanced, if you want a Sonic game where everything that happens is as exciting to look at it is in games like Sonic Adventure 2 and Unleashed, some automation is always going to be required if you want every player to be able to enjoy those aspects without there being safety cushions and barriers and button prompts plastered all over the level.

Of course if that's NOT the kind of Sonic game you want, that's an entire different discussion that the issue of loop automation only scratches the surface of (and you probably want to check out fangames like Sonic Utopia).

[GucciBurr]

25 minutes ago, JezMM said:

False equivelance.  In ASR, the loops are wide and interactions with other racers continue in the exact same way that they do when not on a loop.

yeah that's how i'm saying the loops in sonic should be lol

And in fact, the ASR example illustrates my main point here - in those games, stuff happens on the loop, you don't just watch, so it makes sense for them to be programmed properly.  If they gave you stuff to do with the loops in the main games, I agree wholeheartedly that they should be programmed properly.

yeah that's how i want the loops to be

By your definition, making a Sonic game where you literally just hold down the A button and Sonic does the whole level, jumping, dodging and everything, would be "not playing itself" as long as he stops doing that when you let go of A.

well it wouldn't be playing itself. i'm not saying it'd be fine though.

Of course if that's NOT the kind of Sonic game you want, that's an entire different discussion that the issue of loop automation only scratches the surface of (and you probably want to check out fangames like Sonic Utopia).

i have, thanks

36 minutes ago, MegasonicZX said:

But its not meaningful input is what i'm saying, sure it requires action from the player but when its something so simple with little to no thought really needed in the first place it makes you wonder why they're there to begin with. 

jumping from platform to platform usually requires little to no thought; should those be automated?

And I never said anything about giving enemies health or making it more of a hassle to take them down, i'm just giving you my stance on why homing attack chains aren't very engaging mechanics, nothing more and nothing less.

my point was just that homing attack chains are supposed to be simple. if taking down enemies was made more complicated, that'd be a problem and i used health bars as an example.

but i agree homing attack chains aren't needed

[MegasonicZX]

5 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

jumping from platform to platform usually requires little to no thought; should those be automated?

When jumping from platforms you normally have to weigh in different variables though (am I going fast enough to make this jump? Is my angle correct? do I need to use the air boost to get over there? etc, etc.) while the homing attack locks on to an enemy that your facing and zips in on them with no real room for error unless the reticle didn't pop up for some reason.

[GucciBurr]

Just now, MegasonicZX said:

When jumping from platforms you normally have to weigh in different variables though (am I going fast enough to make this jump? Is my angle correct? do I need to use the air boost to get over there? etc, etc.) while the homing attack locks on to an enemy that your facing and zips in on them with no real room for error unless the reticle didn't pop up for some reason.

touche.

yeah i agree homing attack chains aren't needed

[AstroSeedP]

I'm gonna have to agree on the "automation on loops and similar things aren't much of a problem" side. Unless they change the way loops look and work, i don't see the point in changing it. 

Because honestly, even in automated segments, does anyone really let go of that control stick?