should iizuka go

[GucciBurr]

i think so. i strongly disagree with his vision for the franchise. i dislike almost every single game he's worked on; colors and generations were only steps in the right direction. overall, i feel those two games were only mediocre at best. lost world was several steps back. looking at forces, it doesn't look like iizuka has learned his lesson. and the game's been in dev for nearly 4 whole years? 

you know it's pretty sad when a game headed by fans (sonic mania) looks so much better than what sonic team, a team of longtime devs, has come up with. iizuka's crimes aren't even limited to just sonic either; he destroyed nights in cold blood back in 2007. in my opinion, iizuka has to go. 

what do you think fam

[JezMM]

Iizuka came up with the idea for Sonic Mania after Taxman and co pitched a remake of Sonic 3 so I think he's doing okay.  The direction he's taking the modern series is going in a questionable direction for a lot of longtime fans but you have to appreciate that we're not the only Sonic fans and that, as said, they're making Sonic Mania too.

It's also worth mentioning that while he was building off Sonic Unleashed, Colours and Generations, were still the games that got Sonic back into good graces again for a huge audience moreso than Unleashed alone did, and the Sonic franchise's track record, for main series games at least, has been above "middle of the road" for his entire tenure, even at lower points like Sonic 4 and Lost World.  These weren't lauded as awful games like Shadow and 2006 were.

I'm not happy with everything he's doing or has done, but some credit has to be given, and we're far, far from a situation where "literally anyone would be better".

[GucciBurr]

i think anyone could have come up with mania. it's basically a glorified fan game; people had been suggesting sega to let the fans make the games for years

also didnt iizuka also come up with sonic boom

[Indigo Rush]

28 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Iizuka came up with the idea for Sonic Mania after Taxman and co pitched a remake of Sonic 3 so I think he's doing okay.  

Nah

https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=35709&st=5370

Quote

Our initial proposal was actually to do a rather modest little original 2D game & bundle in the remasters to sweeten the deal. Iizuka-san then suggested the "Mania" concept of re-imagining the classic Zones along with our new Zones as one cohesive game, and our team went to work coming up with a new story and ideas to go with it. 

If anything, the dude's responsible for the old levels returning. 

Spoiler

Which I'm absolutely okay with, so I like the guy

 

14 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

 it's basically a glorified fan game

You're the worst.

17 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

also didnt iizuka also come up with sonic boom

He greenlit the initiative, but Sega of America is the responsible party.

[SBR2]

1. Sonic Boom the show is hilarious and 2. Hasn't iIzuka  been involved since the move to 3D began?

[Marcello]

I'm not sure he needs to go, but I can't say I'd particularly miss him.

25 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

If anything, the dude's responsible for the old levels returning.

 

So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case...

[Indigo Rush]

Iizuka-san was a level designer for Sonic 3.

So yes, he's been here for a bit.

2 minutes ago, Marcello said:

So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case...

If "buuhooo, Green Hill again" is your worst indictment against Sonic Mania, y'all gotta find bigger fish to fry.

[TheOcelot]

7 minutes ago, Marcello said:

So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case...

No, he's responsible for why we're getting stuff like this:

...instead of more ports with no new content.

Considering how well Mania's been received it seems to have been a masterstroke by Iizuka to suggest re-imagining. 

[Marcello]

6 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

If "buuhooo, Green Hill again" is your worst indictment against Sonic Mania, y'all gotta find bigger fish to fry.

2

 

Just now, OcelotBot said:

No, he's responsible for why we're getting stuff like this:

instead or more ports with no new content.

Considering how well Mania's been received it seems to have been a masterstroke by Iizuka to suggest re-imagining. 

Why does it have to be ports or rehashes? Why couldn't have been a fully new game? The reception would be the same, if not better.

The game isn't being well received because SEGA once again feels the need to reuse old levels. It's being well received because it looks like a great game that stays true to the gameplay of the classics.

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

4 minutes ago, Marcello said:

So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case...

Other than the fact you don't like the levels... what is actually wrong with that decision to justify him looking his job?

You know because it must be something really bad that we've not seen.

Otherwise this was a really stupid thing to say right?

1 hour ago, GucciBurr said:

iizuka's crimes aren't even limited to just sonic either; he destroyed nights in cold blood back in 2007. in my opinion, iizuka has to go. 

Then call the police or something man I don't know.

1 hour ago, GucciBurr said:

I think anyone could have come up with mania. it's basically a glorified fan game; 

Could you like... just not complain about how games are made unless you actually try to understand what goes into them?

1 minute ago, Marcello said:

The game isn't being well received because SEGA once again feels the need to reuse old levels. It's being well received because it looks like a great game that stays true to the gameplay of the classics.

So why does he need to step down again?

[Marcello]

3 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

Other than the fact you don't like the levels... what is actually wrong with that decision to justify him looking his job?

You know because it must be something really bad that we've not seen.

Otherwise this was a really stupid thing to say right?

So why does he need to step down again?

2

Maybe you should reread my post because I said I don't think he needs to go.

[Badnik Mechanic]

3 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Maybe you should reread my post because I said I don't think he needs to go.

Maybe you should re-read your own post because I'm quite sure you suggested it doesn't help his cause to stay.

You know... the part that I quoted? This bit...

So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case...

There you go. 

So... what's wrong with it to put his job at risk? 

Can we actually get an answer this time?

[Marcello]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Maybe you should re-read your own post because I'm quite sure you suggested it doesn't help his cause to stay.

You know... the part that I quoted? This bit...

So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case...

There you go. 

So... what's wrong with it to put his job at risk?

Because, for years Sonic has been rehashing things in almost every game and it keeps on going, so for me, that's a knock against him, even if I don't don't necessarily think he should leave the franchise.

[Badnik Mechanic]

 

1 minute ago, Marcello said:

Because, for years Sonic has been rehashing things in almost every game and it keeps on going, so for me, that's a knock against him, even if I don't don't necessarily think he should leave the franchise.

This puts your job at risk now guys.

Don't do it.

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah if reusing old level concepts is a serious problem then I'd love to be a fly on the wall during his performance review in regards to reusing rings and item boxes. 

[Marcello]

3 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

This puts your job at risk now guys.

Don't do it.

 

1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

Yeah if reusing old level concepts is a serious problem then I'd love to be a fly on the wall during his performance review in regards to reusing rings and item boxes. 

For fuck's sake, I didn't say it should put his damn job at risk. I said it makes me want him on the series less. Is that simple enough for you?

[Badnik Mechanic]

2 minutes ago, Marcello said:

For fuck's sake, I didn't say it should put his damn job at risk. I said it makes me want him on the series less. Is that simple enough for you?

Actually what you said was...

"So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case..."

Lol c'mon man. 

[Mad Convoy]

On one hand, he has been responsible for some stinkers (Shadow the Hedgehog's plot comes to mind, as does his love of the Monster of the Week formula and the two world thing). I will never ever call Iizuka perfect. But on the flip side, he's also done a lot of great stuff (Sonic 3&K comes to mind, as well as being an important employee for the Boost trilogy, which like it or not did create a brief revival of interest in Sonic, and getting Mania approved).

I get the impression that he is really and truly passionate about Sonic, given that he's stuck around for so long even through awful situations. I honestly believe that he is doing what he believes is best despite having to deal with many awful situations. Granted, you might not always agree that what he thinks is best is all that great, and I totally get why, but I feel like his passion leads to good things a lot. If nothing else, he does learn from his mistakes and try for improvements (Sonic games' technical performance have improved a lot under him and he does seem to be listening to fans even if he doesn't quite interpret what they said correctly).

He's already a pretty good producer/director/etc., but he (and Sonic Team in general) needs to get that mentality that he has to please all parts of the fandom and general public out of his head. Because that will never happen. Ever. Or at least not on purpose. And that mentality results in confused games with major flaws, whereas if he (and Sonic Team) chose to target a few subsets, the final product would be more focused and consistent to the point where people outside those subsets can at least respect what its trying to do (as demonstrated with the Boost trilogy). Once that happens, I think he (and Sonic Team) can go from being good to being great.

2 hours ago, GucciBurr said:

iizuka's crimes aren't even limited to just sonic either; he destroyed nights in cold blood back in 2007.

Nah, according to a leak from a former Sega employee in 2007, Sega ended up dooming that game. Rise of Lyric isn't the first game Sega has forced a developer to suddenly make exclusive to a Nintendo console in a short period of time-- the Nights game was meant to be on PS3/360 with the Wii version being an afterthought, but Sega insisted on it being Wii exclusive against Sonic Team's wishes, forcing guys like Iizuka to scramble to adapt. Indeed, it should be noted that the blog post in question, being from a disgruntled employee, has a strong negative bias and is very much on the side of defeatism. Yet the employee still made time to note that his lack of faith in the Nights remake was not due to "any lack of faith in Iizuka-san's talent and commitment, neither of which are in question; but rather because of the environment and conditions he has been forced to work in on this project." In short, blame Sega Sammy, not Iizuka.

Again, this post was from 2007. I know that there was a massive staff purge and restructure of Sonic Team shortly after the leaker was fired and his blog taken down. And then Sega of Japan and Sega of America were restructured in 2015. A lot of things have changed. So could have Iizuka. But my point is that the Nights disaster wasn't Iizuka fault, and that Iizuka is good at what he does with an admirable amount of commitment and passion.

The archived version of that blog post is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070408161400/http://bossrush.blogspot.com/2007/03/nights-2.html

[Marcello]

Just now, Mayor D said:

Actually what you said was...

"So he's responsible for the worst part of Mania? That sure doesn't help his case..."

Lol c'mon man. 

And I've clarified it, twice now, but let's ignore that, huh?

[Indigo Rush]

Didn't mean to misrepresent you, dude. Sorry.

 

[GucciBurr]

14 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Nah, according to a leak from a former Sega employee in 2007, Sega ended up dooming that game. Rise of Lyric isn't the first game Sega has forced a developer to suddenly make exclusive to a Nintendo console in a short period of time-- the Nights game was meant to be on PS3/360 with the Wii version being an afterthought, but Sega insisted on it being Wii exclusive against Sonic Team's wishes, forcing guys like Iizuka to scramble to adapt. Indeed, it should be noted that the blog post in question, being from a disgruntled employee, has a strong negative bias and is very much on the side of defeatism. Yet the employee still made time to note that his lack of faith in the Nights remake was not due to "any lack of faith in Iizuka-san's talent and commitment, neither of which are in question; but rather because of the environment and conditions he has been forced to work in on this project." In short, blame Sega Sammy, not Iizuka.

Again, this post was from 2007. I know that there was a massive staff purge and restructure of Sonic Team shortly after the leaker was fired and his blog taken down. And then Sega of Japan and Sega of America were restructured in 2015. A lot of things have changed. So could have Iizuka. But my point is that the Nights disaster wasn't Iizuka fault, and that Iizuka is good at what he does with an admirable amount of commitment and passion.

The archived version of that blog post is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070408161400/http://bossrush.blogspot.com/2007/03/nights-2.html

i don't see how the game being rushed to the wii would have affected most of the main concepts and features of the game. imho the main problem with journey of dreams were how it completely killed the whole arcade-ish score attack aspect of saturn nights and the forced missions where you do boring crap like play as the humans or rescue stuff. also nights having a voice killed the character for me. i'm pretty sure these things were decided early on in the game's development

being rushed would have just resulted in bugginess and features being removed, but the game wasn't particularly glitchy iirc and it doesn't feel like much was removed when the game ended up having so much unnecessary content  anyway

[Plasme]

You know what? I actually wanted to get active on a Sonic forum, but after my initial visit I thought this place was pretty toxic and fucking nasty at times. So I come back, thinking perhaps I was being a tad ridicuous, and lo and behold, members who have thousands of posts (presumably have been here ages) are sneering at each other in a bizzare populism onmanupmanship.Is that what the forum is aways like? Why is this mentality even tolerated here?

Sonic is a game designed for children, it's about a wisecracking blue hedeghog who goes fast and has fun. The deep cynicism and negativtiy which has surrounded the fanbase is perhaps unsurprising given the franchise's past failings, but holy shit.

[Indigo Rush]

So do you think Iizuka should go or not 

[redhellc]

Do I think the biggest problem with the series right now is direction? Yes, does this mean it's Iizuka's fault? I can't say. It's easy blaming the person that most of the time is the face of the franchise, but that doesn't mean the questionable decisions in games like Forces come from him.

Still I do think the franchise needs some new blood, maybe it wouldn't be too bad if he was replaced.

Also I don't think it's ok to give credit to Iizuka for Mania, because everyone can have an good idea but what you do with said idea it's a different thing. And I think that's where Mania shines, it's an great execution of a good idea.

I mean making Sonic 4 was also a good idea and look how that turned out.

[Wraith]

By any objective metric you'd have a hard time convincing anyone to fire Iizuka. His games perform well and are received well for the most part. 

And if you wanted a change in creative direction, you would need to shake up more then just him. He's not the only one making creative decisions.