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should iizuka go


GucciBurr

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i think it's safe to say most of the creative decisions regarding the franchise come from iizuka. sonic having two worlds, being able to play as our OCs in the game, deadly six, lost world, generations, etc. and he's the head of sonic team now so i'm pretty sure the crap that comes from others must be greenlit by him

speaking of iizuka anyone remember that picture of iizuka with a group of people looking at something and iizuka was happy and everyone else was concerned lol

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2 hours ago, GucciBurr said:

i don't see how the game being rushed to the wii would have affected most of the main concepts and features of the game. imho the main problem with journey of dreams were how it completely killed the whole arcade-ish score attack aspect of saturn nights and the forced missions where you do boring crap like play as the humans or rescue stuff. also nights having a voice killed the character for me. i'm pretty sure these things were decided early on in the game's development

being rushed would have just resulted in bugginess and features being removed, but the game wasn't particularly glitchy iirc and it doesn't feel like much was removed when the game ended up having so much unnecessary content  anyway

There's a huge difference between the specs of the PS3/XB360 and the Wii. The important parts are that the PS3/XB360 has a lot more memory available for use than the Wii and also has a completely different control scheme. This means that the Wii being pushed to its limits isn't capable of as much as the PS3/XB360 pushed to its limits in terms of graphics, scale, and sound. Iizuka had imagined the Nights game as a vast and grand spectacle (imagine the Nights equivalent to Super Mario Odyssey), and because of the Wii's memory limitations, he believed that his dream Nights game was not possible on the Wii. The Wii also has built in motion controls and it was the early days of waggle, so they also had to program and test a new and different control style than Sonic Team was used to. This is especially the case for a game that was designed for a PS3/XB360 (which at the time had no motion control options) and has the according control scheme and design.

In short, getting Nights as Iizuka imagined it on the Wii would have been difficult enough, but with the time crunch, it became nearly impossible even make the game rise above mediocrity. 

Now, the blog post I referenced did say that the initial PS3 beta demo was not well received, so it is possible that some of the annoyances you mentioned would have still been in the game in the final. But that could also be the result of Sega devoting little to no time or money to the game due to having no faith in its success and basically only approving it because they wanted Iizuka to stop bothering them about. Then they saw that the PS3 beta demo was badly received and thought to use a Wii game as a cash grab. Iizuka protested but it was in vain. It should be noted that the reason why the game wasn't a bugfest like Rise of Lyric was because Iizuka anticipated that the Wii version of the game would be important and got Sonic Team to work on it a few months before Nintendo exclusivity was forced on the game. So Sonic Team at least got time to bugtest the game before launch. With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a ton of cut content that we simply don't know about, as well as content that would have made more sense/been better executed if the final product was as Iizuka imagined it.

------------

So in short, Iizuka (and Sonic Team) got screwed by Sega and had to salvage his dream project, which must have been heartbreaking. Despite that, his anticipating of Sega's Wii focus was one of the main reasons that the game managed not to be worse than it actually was. And the fact that he stuck by Sonic Team throughout the development and long after despite facing conditions that would have driven most to quit shows a lot of determination and passion for his work.

Whether I like what he's doing or not, I have a ton of respect for Iizuka. He always tries to make the best out of whatever situations get thrown at him, is capable of good stuff when given good work conditions, and he supports Sonic Team through thick and thin.

And besides, we wouldn't have Sonic Mania if it weren't for him so he can't be that bad.

**EDIT**

48 minutes ago, GucciBurr said:

i think it's safe to say most of the creative decisions regarding the franchise come from iizuka. sonic having two worlds, being able to play as our OCs in the game, deadly six, lost world, generations, etc. and he's the head of sonic team now so i'm pretty sure the crap that comes from others must be greenlit by him

speaking of iizuka anyone remember that picture of iizuka with a group of people looking at something and iizuka was happy and everyone else was concerned lol

Um, I'm pretty sure Sega is the company that holds the strings. They're pretty much the boss of Sonic Team. A lot of the decision-making about Sonic Team's direction is theirs.

Granted, Sonic Team has had more freedom since 2008, but Sega is still very important.

And yes, Iizuka has greenlit some bad stuff. I never claimed he was perfect. But overall, he's pretty good. And I'd like specifics from Lost World and Generations, as both have a mix of good stuff and bad stuff. Just as you could deride the Deadly Six as a poor concept, I could point to Parkour as a good concept that didn't get the time it needed to work out the kinks.

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4 hours ago, GucciBurr said:

what do you think fam

I don't think you're actually looking for debate, in this thread or any of the other of the half dozen hot takes you've made new threads for in the past few days.

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9 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Just as you could deride the Deadly Six as a poor concept, I could point to Parkour as a good concept that didn't get the time it needed to work out the kinks.

Heck, you could even say the same for the Deadly 6 in regards to not meeting their full potential either. They were a fresh of breath air in regards to monsters of week, heck, the only reason they got to betray Eggman was because of Sonic anyway, unlike say, Dark Gaia.

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10 minutes ago, Tornado said:

I don't think you're actually looking for debate, in this thread or any of the other of the half dozen hot takes you've made new threads for in the past few days.

i only wish to discuss whether or not iizuka should remain in charge of this franchise. given how controversial many of his decisions seem to be, i figured it warranted a discussion on the most popular sonic fansite

also whats a hot take

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8 minutes ago, JovahexeonJunkoJoranvexeon said:

Heck, you could even say the same for the Deadly 6 in regards to not meeting their full potential either. They were a fresh of breath air in regards to monsters of week, heck, the only reason they got to betray Eggman was because of Sonic anyway, unlike say, Dark Gaia.

Good point. I wish they had been fleshed out more because they are quite flat and cliche. If the dialogue had been better, I imagine the deadly six would be pretty interesting. (I for one love Zomom and Zazz, even if they weren't given good writing)

That I think we can pin on Sonic Team, since Pontaff apparently wanted to flesh them out more but weren't given the chance. However, Sonic Team seems to have learned their lesson as Zavok looks really cool in Forces.

*fingers crossed that his boss fight doesn't require the use of a move you probably never used before that fight*

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1 hour ago, GucciBurr said:

 

speaking of iizuka anyone remember that picture of iizuka with a group of people looking at something and iizuka was happy and everyone else was concerned lol

No.

How about you post it and provide a context for it if indeed it actually exists.

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Just now, Mayor D said:

No.

How about you post it and provide a context for it if indeed it actually exists.

i would but i cant find it so i was wondering if one of you guys could lol

it was from back in 2010 when sonic 4 ep 1 was in dev

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I guess I'll be the only guy that will try and make a case in favor of the sentiment of the OP, even given that the OP itself may not be built on anything of substance and this opinion is arguably(?) the outlier narrative. I do think Iizuka and his close associates should let someone else (someone within Sonic Team or otherwise) take the reigns of Sonic in terms of creative control and franchise management. Dare I even argue people give him/them too much credit for how they've handled Sonic over the past two decades. Excluding the late 2000s (Sonic 2006 - Black Knight), Iizuka and his close company has pretty much held control over the main Sonic games since Adventure; and I'd argue under their tenure they've made more negative choices to the series than positive choices. I honestly do not believe that Iizuka and his associates even have any real understanding of Sonic outside of the surface elements.

Their management of gameplay has arguably been a mess for years. They've stripped out Sonic's original defining mechanics with both the 3D games and the 2D games and haven't even tried restoring it in a meaningful sense. Levels are padded out with automated and scripting to the point that the games themselves making Sonic fast, rather than the player themselves; and they're largely stagnant and/or generic in structure as it is (which I've covered in more detail in the recent level design thread). Whatever playstyles they do have, they don't know or don't care about properly maintaining it; they are far more interested in splitting up their games into multiple different genres / playstyles, adding gimmicks that don't complement the main gameplay, or doing both. Cultivating one game --let alone an entire line of games-- on one playstyle and mixing it up with new mechanics that actually complement the original gameplay --like other good series have done-- seems to be an entirely alien concept to them.

This also holds true for the management of the franchise as a whole, which has no consistency or coherence to it or built on any masterplan. The series' tone, artstyle, and presentation have all gone all over the place to the point where they have contributed to games within the main series that can been called into question on whether they can even be conceptually be considered Sonic. The story / lore seems to be made up on the spot, with the talk about two worlds and the situation with the moon since Adventure 2 with the Sonic Bible. They still try making games that try to cater to multiple demographics at once, despite those games usually dividing everyone across the board and pleasing very few people. Elements that could have simply sufficed (and were arguably intended to be) as one-off elements they're still trying to hold onto it, while neglecting other elements that used to be or could had been an actual staple of the series. And it goes without saying that they are entirely inept with PR and feedback--how they interpret fan feedback is so hamfisted it has literally led to the point where people actually have to come up with mistakes that Iizuka and co. could come up with and ask them not to do that. Even the soft reboot spinoff Sega attempted and Sonic Team supervised with Sonic Boom couldn't get its story straight, namely with how the games clash not just with the show, but even with each other.

Iizuka in particular has also repeated shown in interviews to be a driving force for some of the more blatantly questionable design decisions / concepts for the series, like having speed boosters littered throughout levels and the Shadow the Hedgehog spinoff (including the whole aspect of making it more "mature"); as well as saying things that don't make much sense, like saying Sonic Rush is the first Sonic game for Nintendo platforms or saying that the foundations of the 3D games are exactly like the 2D games, and implying that fans of the 2D games don't like the 3D games on the basis of them being 3D. He's also arguably a large driving force in moving Sonic away from his original conception (in gameplay) in the first place--the series semi-reboot that was Sonic Adventure was based on Iizuka's push on making an "Sonic RPG" (he also came up with the idea of having the game feature different playstyles to get broader appeal); and it goes without saying that the main reason we got Sonic 4 as it is is because that game wasn't even supposed to be a sequel, Sonic Team/Dimps just called it Sonic 4 because SoA requested for a game called Sonic 4. (Nevermind other elements about the game such as adding things like the homing attack and deliberately moving away from the original physics.) I think it says a lot that Iizuka's biggest success --in both reviews and sales--is the first Adventure...which has been largely criticized in retrospect as having aged poorly and being a product of its time, as well as for introducing several of the series' problems in the 3D games / recent games.

12 hours ago, Josh said:

By any objective metric you'd have a hard time convincing anyone to fire Iizuka. His games perform well and are received well for the most part. 

Received well in reviews? I wouldn't exactly say that, unless we're using a very low barometer for what's considered a well-received game.

- Games he directed (1998):

Adventure - 86% (GameRankings)

- Games he directed (and produced) as Sonic Team USA head (2001 - 2007)

Adventure 2 - 83% (GameRankings) / 89 (MetaCritic)

Heroes - 70% / 68

Shadow the Hedgehog - 51% / 48

Sonic Rivals - 66% / 64

NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams - 69% / 69

Sonic Rivals 2 - 63% / 60

- Games he produced as Sonic Team head (2010 - ):

Sonic 4: Epi. 1 - 71%* / 74*

Colors - 78%* / 78*

Generations - 76%* / 74*

Sonic 4: Epi. 2 - 62%* / 61*

Lost World - 61%* / 61*

Runners - 51% / 58

(Games italicized are multiplatform releases, scores are based on medium scores of all multiplatform titles. Dimps-developed handheld versions are also included if there are any.)

At least half of those games he's directed/produced so far don't even surpass the 70s, and only two of them are within the 80s. Only two games he's directed/produced made could be said to be genuinely good off of fundamentals alone, rather than being "mediocre" or "almost good/good enough". (And even then, those only apply to the original releases--the updated re-releases on the GC scored significantly lower in comparison.)

As for sales performance...on one hand, most of the games he's done have have sold more than one million units,  so he can be said to be consistent in that area. On the other hand, those sales haven't exactly kept sales for Sonic titles from historically being in decline for years. Not too hard to imagine Sonic would had a market outside his most diehard fans if the games were of (consistently) higher quality.

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A Sonic Team leader that allows Sonic 4 is not a Sonic Team leader :P 

Greenlighting Sonic Boom was a bad idea in my opinion. Unnecessarily "even more modern" design, bad games... 

Now, the Mania concept he added (reimagining old stages) is smart, I'll give him that. It's smart because it's a good way to link the past with future 2D games made by Taxman and co. I think the meeting went like this:

Taxman: how about making a small Sonic 2D game?

Iizuka: not sure if it would be taken as a cheap product. We'd be asked to make a bigger game.

T: well, how about a bigger game?

I: well, it's a risk. Sure there are fans demanding but we need to attract so many people.

T: oh...

I: yep... What about remaking old stages?

T: like Sonic 4? I dont't think so. We have ideas for new levels. Lots of ideas.

I: and what about new levels + reimagined levels? That way we can market it much better. We could build hype for more Sonic 2D games.

T: will you let us remaster Sonic 3 after that?

I: let's see how sales go...

 

I mean, the reimagined stages idea is not bad, but here's the question: would you prefer an all new levels game or Mania? I'd go with the first for sure. 

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i'd prefer an all levels new game, but i don't mind old levels being remade in mania as long as we have at least six new levels. after all, sonic 1 and sonic 3 both had 6 levels, so if mania feels at least as long as those in terms of new content, i'm good

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The question is who else should he be replaced with? Fact of the matter is he is the most experienced with Sonic at Sega after the original trio (Naka, Yasuhara, Oshima). He was the main designer since the Saturn era.

His background as a level designer is especially important - he was the main level designer for 3d blast, R, Adventure 1,2 Heroes and Shadow. And then the games he produced since 2010. Regardless of the overall picture of these games, I think all of those games show at least an understanding that Sonic should be about speed and plattforming in equal measure. I mean we have seen what happened with stuff in the latter 00's, Rush, Storybook games.

The people responsible for Unleashed, Nishiyama (also resposible for Rush), and Hashimoto thought that Unleashed and Rush were like the old Sonic games when asked about the return of old style 2D games. I mean really...

Regarding the discussion about NiGHTS last page. It has more to do with the fact that Sonic Team USA had very little budget that he had to work with (he managed Adventure 2 pretty good in any case). When the games were produced in the main studio with Iizuka on the helm, it has been decent (Adventure 1, Colors etc.)

Him being involved with Mania imo will give him very good lessons on automation too.

We won't get rid off him anyway, he said in Interviews that he will be working on Sonic games until he retires

 

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