Should Sonic Forces be delayed until 2018?

[Kuzu]

Forces' problems go way beyond what a simple delay could fix.

[Bobnik]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's entirely possible to get rid of modern Sonic without getting rid of 3D.

He pretty much says that 3D Sonic shouldn't exist tho.

[expansivelovestories]

Any shortfalls of this game do set up the next game, which will better utilize the new engine and see other improvements, to have an even stronger reception than it already would on its own merits.  

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

ah cuzz, there isn't a delay long enough to even fix this game.

Really though, this game's real problem is the gameplay choices, decisions and execution. Sega has just gone to far in to drastically change this game to fit the game fans really wanted it to be. It's already nearly finished anyway.

I still have this much? hope that maybe the rest of the game will be OK. 

Makes you wonder though how much fan feedback is taken in by sega.

50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Forces is like a bandaid, you want to rip it off quick and get it over with.

Bandaid? This feels more like a kidney stone.

[Kiah]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

Hey if it flops i will be happy, the death of modern Sonic for me is a good thing.

Modern Sonic sucks anyhow only one good game and a crap ton of mediocre and shit games.

 

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

Yes but the death of modern sonic is still as good thing, Sonics move to 3D has not been pleasant.

It goes back to the phrase if it ain't broke dont fix it.

Obnoxiousness aside, these posts have nothing to do with the topic at hand and are therefore off-topic.

This topic is about whether a delay to Sonic Forces has some merit behind it or not and not your criticism (which isn't constructive in the slightest) and bashing for Modern Sonic. So post accordingly in line with the subject of the topic if you are going to post here and do not derail this topic again. 

[memoryman3]

Also, 2D Sonic in Forces doesn't really look that much better than 3D Sonic.

[Mr Loopone]

A delay wouldn't really affect Sonic Forces as there's only so much a delay can fix a game especially an extra year. I even think Forces itself might have already been delayed in the past and waited until the right moment to show it. Besides the game looks polished enough (as in graphics and not many bugs) and normally delays are done to fix bugs, control issues, and maybe alter the level design if there's a enough time. The HUD might be fixed between E3 and release and some minor things but can't see much else.

The game is just too deep in its design to be changed. There might be some minor cutting when it gets closer to release and expect some of that to be uncovered when it comes out but nothing much more. It's like Star Fox Zero, it got delayed and it still had problems due to the design of the game or Sonic 4 Episode 1 where two levels got completely changed (except mobile) but the rest of the game was more or less the same. Days where a game can be completely reworked in 6 months like Shinobi 3 are pretty much over unless it is an indie game.

Only thing that Sega can do is ride it out with the release and hope for the best. Some companies would have cancelled the game even when its fully complete.

 

[avidsonicfan1991]

The only thing I don't want is for SEGA to keep Sonic 100% confined to 2D territory after the universally positive reviews of Sonic Mania and the others of this one (Like, for example, what Ubisoft recently did to Rayman)! I actually love 3D Sonic for....... I guess how much story he would be in (I really don't know the real reasons, but they have nothing to do with gameplay), and I definitely don't want SEGA to completely 100% kill off Modern Sonic for good after this game comes out!!!

[Nepenthe]

It took four years of work to get Forces to the point where it's an aesthetic and design clusterfuck. Another year isn't going to help except for just polishing up what's there.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

Sega seems like that one kid that gets scolded at by adults for doing something bad. They get so scared at the scolding that they try very careful and go too far to not do that bad thing again to the point where it annoys the adults.

[memoryman3]

7 minutes ago, A wreaking havoc engine said:

Sega seems like that one kid that gets scolded at by adults for doing something bad. They get so scared at the scolding that they try very careful and go too far to not do that bad thing again to the point where it annoys the adults.

Like how multiple playable characters were scrapped, despite them working well in Advance...

Like how Colors had 90% 2D sections...

[Dannymax440]

2 hours ago, Mad Convoy said:

Then, the best thing Sonic Team can do is incorporate the criticisms of Forces in the planning for the next Sonic game.

Preach that. I'll take this over "Forces must fail for Sega to learn a lesson".

[Blue Blood]

Holding in a turd doesn't make it smell better. It's still shit.

[JosepHenry]

Doesn't one person make it clear enough, jeez... 

They could delay the game all they want, it wouldn't change people's opinions about it.

[TheOcelot]

If Forces gets delayed to 2018 there will only be enough time to polish it up and fix any bugs, much like what Mania's three-month delay will have been for. SEGA will probably delay the game if it needs a bit more polish as per their new don't-rush-things-out-policy.

A polished game is all well and good, but if the overall gameplay is still a fucking mess - which it clearly is - then the reception is gonna be bad regardless.

Don't think I've ever known a Sonic game to get such a bad reception prior to release from the general gaming media. Could end up getting one of the worst meta-critic scores for a Sonic game ever.

18 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Holding in a turd doesn't make it smell better. It's still shit.

 Thank you for making me lol!

[Balding Spider]

A delay isn't a remedy for poor direction and even worse implementation of gimmicks. Forces is an example of a product trying to please everyone. And I'm sure we all know the saying about that.

2 hours ago, memoryman3 said:

Also, 2D Sonic in Forces doesn't really look that much better than 3D Sonic.

Controversial opinion here but I'd argue it's worse.

[JosepHenry]

 

23 minutes ago, OcelotBot said:

If Forces gets delayed to 2018 there will only be enough time to polish it up and fix any bugs, much like what Mania's three-month delay will have been for. SEGA probably will delay the game if it needs a bit more polish as per their new don't-rush-things-out-policy.

A polished game is all well and good, but if the overall gameplay is still a fucking mess - which it is - then the reception of the game is still gonna be bad.

Don't think I've ever known a Sonic game to get such a bad reception prior release from the general gaming media. Could end up getting one of the worst meta-critic scores for a Sonic games ever.

 Thank you for making me, lol!

Nah. I know how much you hate this game but is not going to be that bad. I expect a 60 to 80 score on metacritic. 

[Spooky Mulder]

I once got a fortune cookie that said "if the cake is bad, what good is the frosting?" I think that applies here.

When the fundamentals of the product are bad, you can't just tweak the packaging and hope to make something good. Sonic Forces has basic conceptual issues that are going to turn off some people regardless of how it plays. Then there's the basic issues with the game's engine that mean stages need to be padded with speed boosters and automated sections.

 

Best thing would be to get Forces out there, let people respond to it, and move on sooner than later.

[Milo]

When the game your studio has been working on for four years (longer than the development period of any Sonic game as far back as the first Adventure) looks so rough in previews, people are calling for a delay into the following year....is there anything more that needs to be said?

As others have said, the major problems with Sonic Forces are entirely structural. The game has problematic design decisions that no amount of bugfixing and QA polish are going to fix (and outside of the Switch port, Forces isn't necessarily suffering from performance problems anyway, so delaying the game to further iron out bugs won't really do much). Addressing those design choices would arguably require a massive retooling of the project as a whole, if not just rebooting the whole thing from scratch. If you're willing to go that extra mile to try and extensively rework/salvage your game...then you'll need your game to be postponed well beyond 2018, if not put your project on the backburner indefinitely. 

Not that I expect Sonic Team to do so anyway. In contrast to the press and large pockets of the Sonic/gaming community, Sonic Team likely don't actually see anything wrong with Sonic Forces, and believe it's in good shape to meet its Holiday 2017 release window (let alone fit for release as it exists). That and the studio rarely, if ever, delay delay games they develop internally or directly outsource under their watch. In which all I can tell them are the same words Naka told STI when he saw their Sonic Mars pitch for the Sega 32X:

[Kellan]

So, I'm seeing a lot of "A delay won't help because all the problems are in the game's design." But, I'm not seeing anyone expanding on that thought (except for Spooky Mulder, who said that the game is too automated).

So, at the risk of looking rather daft, I'm just going to ask: What have we seen so far that apparently already makes this game a lost cause?

 

 

 

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

13 minutes ago, Kellan said:

So, I'm seeing a lot of "A delay won't help because all the problems are in the game's design." But, I'm not seeing anyone expanding on that thought

And here. 

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2017/04/the-spin-sonic-forces-me-to-write-this/

The level design is an utter mess, this is symptomatic of very early initial design choices.

Modern Sonic is suffering from the "play itself" issue. In the first gameplay video shown. 33 seconds of gameplay are shown. 12 seconds of that are automated sections.

Boosters everywhere for utterly no reason. Were going downhill at one point yet we need 4 boosters!?

Oh a gentle slope. Better put a booster there...

From the early design choices the game is a mess. 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

12 minutes ago, Kellan said:

So, I'm seeing a lot of "A delay won't help because all the problems are in the game's design." But, I'm not seeing anyone expanding on that thought (except for Spooky Mulder, who said that the game is too automated).

So, at the risk of looking rather daft, I'm just going to ask: What have we seen so far that apparently already makes this game a lost cause?

If you've been paying attention to the discussion surrounding Sonic Forces on this site, you'll have seen this question answered again and again and again. I'm not even trying to be cheeky or anything, so I'm sorry if it comes across that way. If you really don't know, a good starting place would be all the negative opinions in this thread:

You might also check out some of the negative opinions from the gaming press in the later pages of this thread:

Both threads have positive opinions too, of course, but the negative assessments should be plenty satisfactory in describing the game's problems.

[Cornelius Fudge]

38 minutes ago, Kellan said:

 So, I'm seeing a lot of "A delay won't help because all the problems are in the game's design." But, I'm not seeing anyone expanding on that thought (except for Spooky Mulder, who said that the game is too automated).

So, at the risk of looking rather daft, I'm just going to ask: What have we seen so far that apparently already makes this game a lost cause?

 

 

 

 

Because it's not necessary. It's already known that the game is plagued by specific design choices including how its inundated with horrendous automated sections including the unnecessary amount of springs in Classic Sonic's stages, how linear and empty Modern Sonic's stages feel, and the Avatar's clunky gameplay because a lot of his game mechanics including the weapon gameplay and grappling hook (esp. when using it on enemies) are designed to slow down gameplay and break the immersion as a result. That, and that they can't create good 3D sections to save their life, so they flood the game with a plethora of 2D sections even though Sonic Mania is just around the corner and all we want to see is Sonic evolve through 3D like other franchises have.

 

  Just look at the first few seconds of Park Avenue for example. The developers know that the character controls like garbage, so the game integrates a dash pad and literally plays the game for you and the first time the Avatar uses the grappling hook is literally designed to slow the player down. In City Heights, we have Modern Sonic moving through a confined space where all he's doing is homing attacking enemies, blazing through enemies with the boost, or moving through dash-pads down a gentle slope which is highly unnecessary. The gameplay feels empty, so they feel the need to integrate 2D sections which doesn't do the game any justice when it feels just as empty.

[Spooky Mulder]

It's also worth noting that the last time a Sonic game was delayed because of fan and media criticism was Sonic 4 Episode 1.

Sure, we got Road of Cards and that frustrating torch level out of the delay but the game still played like shit and has aged terribly.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much discussion value there is in just asking "should Sonic Forces be delayed?" I'm more curious what people would realistically like to see fixed in a delay and then evaluate whether those things are worth it.

If the game were pushed off, I'd like to see that hideous UI overhauled. It looks like someone slapped it together in Microsoft Paint. Some of the music could use some work too.

[memoryman3]

3 hours ago, Balding Spider said:

Controversial opinion here but I'd argue it's worse.

Oh, it's not controversial.