Should Sonic Forces be delayed until 2018?

[Alienrun]

People didn't hate on Unleashed or Black Knight because it had bugs in it...they didn't like what they were going for.

Same goes here...its not always that black and white.

Of course we're not getting another 06 or Boom, its not hard to be better than shit. We want Sonic games that aren't just better than average but that are actually good and can stand the test of time as being legitametly good games! We know Sega could do it if they pulled there heads out of there asses which is WHY were critisising them so much!

All things considered this game could be better than Gens gameplay wise...problem is that game came out 6 years ago, that's hardly an accomplishment by today's standards!

[ChikaBoing]

9 hours ago, ShroomZed said:

Nah. This game is like '06 conceptually, in that there's already too much rubbish in the system that a few more months isn't gonna fix anything at the core. 

B....but it has pudgy Classic Sonic from the 90's!

Its so funny how Classic Sonic became like Shadow in a sense. 

[Detective Kaito]

They can't do anything to fix the core problems with the game as it is. Best thing to do is to release it and work on something better. That said, I do hope Sonic Forces turns out to be a great game, it would be a pleasant surprise for all of us.

[Chris Knopps]

10 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Holding in a turd doesn't make it smell better. It's still shit.

What the hell Blue?

You're REAL d@$n lucky I didn't just spew my cola all over my laptop.

Dear God...

In response to past comments on getting rid of 3D stuff IF Forces, or rather it's POTENTIALLY reaching the point of saying WHEN Forces flops, it actually might be nice to see 3D eliminated for a good long while for the company/team to get their act together before starting another project and let 2D/Whitehead take control of the franchise for a while so the ducks can get back in a row over at ST.

I think the best solution is a vacation, as I've mentioned before, with the company sending ST off to see the world for a while.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

With that idea, maybe the next game should have a massive budget & scale like unleashed. 

Be done with the boost.

Create something amazing after a long break.

[Cornelius Fudge]

2 hours ago, A wreaking havoc engine said:

With that idea, maybe the next game should have a massive budget & scale like unleashed. 

Be done with the boost.

Create something amazing after a long break.

I honestly don't know if a massive budget would even resolve Sonic's issues. Seems like a conceptual mistake rather than lack of resources.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

I get what you're saying,

*Sega creates this awesomely beautiful looking sonic game!

*But sega puts classic sonic and remade sonic 4 levels plus tails follows modern sonic in levels but you can't play as him and it's a boost game. Plus, erazor djin,

Black doom, and mephiles return for some reason and vector is evil this time.

Oh and besides playing as other characters omochao is now playable in a chu chu rocket like minigames that breaks the flow of the levels.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

No, Forces shouldn't be delayed. As much as I've defended its story, the level design problems are obvious (assuming the rest follow the philosophy of what we've seen). The custom character was done not in the vein of "how can we introduce more gameplay concepts" but instead "how can we sell this to as many kids as possible?" And that money-hungry philosophy makes it fitting that Forces be shoved out the door for the holidays. 

I'm more optimistic about this than most, and still believe it has potential to be my favorite 3D Sonic besides Generations, but honestly, this far along, the 2017 3D Sonic game should be GAURANTEED to be better than Generations. Thanks to stuffy, corporate thinking, we still don't have that guarantee. 

[molul]

Don't delay it. Let it fall. 

[Baconjack]

To be fair, the game is looking on track to be OK. However, as with most E3 demos, Forces lacks polish, but I'm sure that will be remedied before the game comes out, in the holiday season of this year (I can predict the game will come out between Thanksgiving and Christmas).

We've gone through this before. Forces is not going to be another disaster. I've read dozens of reviews of the demo that was shown at E3 from people that actually played it at E3, and the majority of them, minus Nintendolife, were relatively pleased with the game, and these are the professional reviewers. I've read the other three negative reviewers, and it is very clear that all of them are either your average Joe classic Sonic fan or a Sonic fan that likes to bash the game for the sake of it. The positive reception we've seen so far from the press is unheard of considering Sonic's piss poor reputation before both of these games were announced.

I've watched videos of Forces so far; and the game looks promising. I'm going to wait until the game comes out to make a call on the game, but it is truly hard to believe how many people hold the delusional belief that Forces will be another '06 or Boom. The game is nowhere near that bad. If I'd have any guess, I'd say that Forces would critically stack up with the likes of Heroes and Unleashed, judging by how the game is going at the moment. 

 

It'll certainly top Boom and '06. It has the potential to top Lost World, Heroes and Adventure 1/2 also. After all, 2/3 of the gameplay is copied and pasted from Generations with some graphical tweaks. We're talking about the Boost engine here folks. An engine that has been used in three Sonic games, with each of them being considered among the best modern Sonic titles. 

The design that ST are going after, is a relatively slippery slope considering '06 had a similar design IMO, but judging by the gameplay and design of Park Avenue for Modern and OC I'm certain that ST have gotten this right for once. I can't say the same thing for Green Hill, though.

 

The level design, however, leaves a lot to be desired, from what I've seen so far. The Custom Hero enemy placements are pitiful, and if one has the flamethrower, those sections will be piss easy to pass. However, ST has designed the Wispons delibrately to lower the difficulty of the levels, and you don't have to use them if you don't want to, just let the noobs who want to use them do so. One thing to note is this is an early version of the game, and the levels that we've been shown so far are most likely the early levels. Just because these levels are easy is not indicative of the remainder of the game. And there is a likelihood that these enemy placements may get changed before release.

 

The hypothesis that Sonic Forces should be delayed to 2018, indicates to me that ST doesn't know what it is doing with Forces, but it is clear that they are and are working with the feedback we gave them after Lost World, where we voiced a need to go back to the Boost formula.

 

The blatant bashing of Forces by the fans as the next '06 is quite harsh and overexaggerated, along with the frequent comparison to Boom. Both Boom and '06 were awful games in their own right, with next to no redeeming qualities, being broken, nearly unplayable games, littered with glitches, poor controls, bad design choices and above all, boring and sometimes bullshit gameplay. Forces, in reality, has a number of good things going for it, the first and foremost one being the Boost gameplay that we loved from Generations, Colours and Unleashed. However, the questionable design choices made by ST during development stop it from being among the best Sonic games. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

Same here, against delaying. Unlike 06 and Rise of Lyric, Sonic Forces is exactly what the development team wants it to be.

I'm getting a hard read on whether Forces will be well received or not, there seems to be a strong disconnect between professional reviewers and Joe Sixpack. And Sonic Forces is clearly aiming for what fans want, and not what the Critics want.
Too bad it's aiming at too many things at the same time, but whatever.

And man, so rolling my eyes at all the "get rid of 3d" comments. Modern Sonic is already 90% in 2d. If you hate Modern Sonic, then you hate Sonic Team's rendition of 2d gameplay to begin with.

[Indigo Rush]

48 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

And man, so rolling my eyes at all the "get rid of 3d" comments. Modern Sonic is already 90% in 2d. If you hate Modern Sonic, then you hate Sonic Team's rendition of 2d gameplay to begin with.

I legitimately wonder when Sonic Team lost touch with how Sonic Rush was designed. It's the proto-boost game, all in 2D. Cheap level design bits near the latter half granted, a majority of the experience is still really fun and keeps the sidescrolling fluid. (AND has a playable character that isn't Sonic) As for 3D, if all they can manage is a souped up Sonic Dash experience with really stiff 360 controls that demand the use of the homing attack to go anywhere, I personally don't think it's even worth pursuing anymore. It can either keep the flow, or pack up and go.

(3D in the context of the Boost/Modern formula, mind. I still think 3D Sonic ought to be pursued and perfected, but the current gameplay style is not working as well as Sonic Team thinks it is)

[Chris Knopps]

I think, personally mind you, with the restructuring of SEGA of America pretty much wrapped up it's finally time for SEGA of Japan to do a little sucking up of their own and restructure Sonic Team, get all the ducks in a row, lay off/fire the has-been's, get fresh folks in, and there you go. The problem is the folks at Sonic Team have been there too d@$n long for one thing which is why there's absolutely NO contest between the old Sonic Team and the new Whitehead Team.

You can only do the same thing so many times before you just can't do it anymore and we've seen this proven with Sonic in recent years. The musicians suck, the programmers suck, the writers suck, everybody friggin' sucks at Sonic Team now no matter what it is they focus on, and to say that about the COMPOSERS of all people is not something I'm proud of but Forces has me admitting it.

I want to see a completely new, totally fresh Sonic Team behind the helm. No IIzuka, no current writers, no current composers, totally new folks who have the same passion, energy, and dedication as the Whitehead Team.

You can bring up the argument that Iizuka spearheaded letting Whitehead Team do Sonic Mania, but any baboon can point at someone and tell them they want a person to make something. That's about all he has to contribute nowadays and it was also all he did with Rise of Lyric.

Pointing out things, telling folks to do this/that...

The company can do that just fine without Iizuka and the rest of current Sonic Team.

[Nuggets]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

You can only do the same thing so many times before you just can't do it anymore and we've seen this proven with Sonic in recent years. The musicians suck, the programmers suck, the writers suck, everybody friggin' sucks at Sonic Team now no matter what it is they focus on, and to say that about the COMPOSERS of all people is not something I'm proud of but Forces has me admitting it.

I get that this game isn't turning out like people would've hoped, but I feel like things like this are going too hard. 

I actually feel like the main issue with people have with Forces is that it won't outright suck, but rather, do a lot of things just alright, in part due to how many things it's trying to do. Classic Sonic's physics look spotty, the automation looks eh, but I don't doubt it won't be at least semi-enjoyable to play, just nothing transcendent. Custom Character looks whatever. And as a fan of Boost, I don't really have a problem with what they're doing here. And even for the people who feel that they're just pretty QTE rollercoasters, there's still a base level of fun to be had there. This is ultimately why it'd be pointless to delay Forces any further - the problems people have with it lie in the ideas themselves, for the most part (but fixing the fuckin physics would've been nice). There's a base level of slightly below average competency that Sonic Team has achieved when listening to complaints and things like this, and I totally get that that's frustrating. Parts of the score have been disappointing for Forces, the writing has been disappointing for more than half a decade. And that's aggravating as shit. But I also feel like Sonic Team was caught between a rock and a hard place with this one, and I think that to say that everyone at the company sucks is kinda rude .

[Chris Knopps]

27 minutes ago, Nuggets said:

I think that to say that everyone at the company sucks is kinda rude .

Are we really still at a point where we're supposed to care about the employees feelings in regards to this franchise nowadays?

Caring about the feelings of folks never does a company any good. It's a business, money is always top priority. When you put your people before your profits, more often than not you either don't make it very far or you fail altogether.

Support them with cash for their work so they can survive but don't go babying them and sacrificing the quality of your products as a result. If employees suck, they get kicked out the door and replaced with new talent. In my 6+ years of business in retail that's how the system works.

[Milo]

4 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

We've gone through this before. Forces is not going to be another disaster. I've read dozens of reviews of the demo that was shown at E3 from people that actually played it at E3, and the majority of them, minus Nintendolife, were relatively pleased with the game, and these are the professional reviewers. I've read the other three negative reviewers, and it is very clear that all of them are your average Joe Blow classic Sonic fan. The positive reception we've seen so far from the press is unheard of considering Sonic's piss poor reputation before both of these games were announced.

Nintendolife is far from an outlier in their critical previews of Forces. And four of the five sites I listed actually defended or spoke positively about the newer games and/or said what they played of Forces wasn't as good in comparison; so no, it's not them being biased towards the Genesis games.

4 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

I'm going to wait until the game comes out to make a call on the game, but it is truly hard to believe how many people hold the delusional belief that Forces will be another '06 or Boom. 

...

The blatant bashing of Forces by the fans as the next '06 is quite harsh and overexaggerated, along with the frequent comparison to Boom.

Is there anyone here in this thread, or even in other threads, actually saying this?

[Chris Knopps]

6 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Is there anyone here in this thread, or even in other threads, actually saying this?

You know... Despite how badly it failed and all the problems with the game...

Is it wrong to say I genuinely liked what Rise of Lyric was going for with its asthetic/locales/plot more than Forces?

If the scripts were better and of course the bugs were gone, and if the game retained what it was originally going to be...

BOOM would have been my SA3, as starting off... Thats what it was to me.

It's not hard to say I could be one of the most disappointed members here in regards to RoL's flop.

[Dannymax440]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

You know... Despite how badly it failed and all the problems with the game...

Is it wrong to say I genuinely liked what Rise of Lyric was going for with its asthetic/locales/plot more than Forces?

If the scripts were better and of course the bugs were gone, and if the game retained what it was originally going to be...

BOOM would have been my SA3, as starting off... Thats what it was to me.

It's not hard to say I could be one of the most disappointed members here in regards to RoL's flop.

If only it didn't get moved to the Wii U. The Synergy trailer showed a lot of gameplay and lore in development for years that was cut out since it wasn't compatible for the Wii U.

I'll never understand why they didn't just use Shattered Crystal instead for the Nintendo exclusivity.

[Chris Knopps]

12 minutes ago, Dannymax440 said:

If only it didn't get moved to the Wii U. The Synergy trailer showed a lot of gameplay and lore in development for years that was cut out since it wasn't compatible for the Wii U.

I'll never understand why they didn't just use Shattered Crystal instead for the Nintendo exclusivity.

Well, my personal opinions as to why SEGA does what they do with Nintendo are FAR too profane and inappropriate for SSMB so...

I'll just say this as toned down as personally possible...

That's what happens when you only know how to hump the leg of the folks who tried to step on you the hardest in the first place.

[Badnik Mechanic]

11 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

being broken, nearly unplayable games, littered with glitches, poor controls, bad design choices and above all, boring and sometimes bullshit gameplay. 

The irony here is astounding.

The positive reception we've seen so far from the press is unheard of considering Sonic's piss poor reputation before both of these games were announced.

quote in italics because mobile SSMB is naff.

What positive press? Forces has barely any.

[Chris Knopps]

52 minutes ago, Mayor D said:

The irony here is astounding.

The positive reception we've seen so far from the press is unheard of considering Sonic's piss poor reputation before both of these games were announced.

quote in italics because mobile SSMB is naff.

What positive press? Forces has barely any.

Well... The general reception is lukewarm at best. It's like a piping hot dinner sitting over some ice slowly turning cold as time passes.

It was hot and exciting at first.

Then it simmered down and was pretty good.

Presently it's lukewarm and "meh..." now.

[Baconjack]

2 hours ago, Mayor D said:

The irony here is astounding.

The positive reception we've seen so far from the press is unheard of considering Sonic's piss poor reputation before both of these games were announced.

quote in italics because mobile SSMB is naff.

What positive press? Forces has barely any.

How can the gameplay of Forces be bad, if 2/3 of it is the same as generations from what we have seen? If you're bashing Forces gameplay, then why don't you be more consistent across the board and bash Generations, Unleashed and Colours gameplay? After all, the gameplay for Modern Sonic in all of these games is the exact same style. It is a Texas-sized contradiction to bash Forces for using the same gameplay style as Generations and try to claim that gameplay is bad, yet praise Generations' gameplay.

The only aspect of the game I can agree with you is design choices. ST have made some questionable decisions which will put people off the game.

I've read positive reviews of Forces on Polygon, Kotaku and Nintendowire. Most of these reviews praise the gameplay but criticise the lack of polish, which is completely understandable.

A handful of others, such as Metro and IGN have mixed emotions of the game, like myself now. This is where most of the press fit in.

Meanwhile, all of the negative previews I've seen, are from Nintendolife, a couple of average joe's, and from the faction of the Sonic fanbase that has been mocked to hell and back on the internet.

[Indigo Rush]

Just because the gameplay premise is the same, doesn't mean it's being utilized in a competent way each time.

Generations Classic, while fun, was really made better by way of comparison to Sonic 4, which failed to understand Classic Sonic gameplay altogether. In hindsight, in comparison to the resurgence of 'proper' Classic gameplay via the Tax-Stealth remasters and now Sonic Mania, Generations Classic actually leaves a fair bit to be desired, including issues we've brought up on this forum even in 2011 (automated ramps, broken rolling, overpowered spindashing, etc); what's especially disappointing about Forces' Classic is that not only has it not received any marked improvements, the level design (which was decent in Gens) seems to have taken the hand-holding automation philosophy of the Modern era to it's logical conclusion. Even if you compare Gens Classic to Forces Classic's Green Hill levels, the difference in quality is staggering. It looks worse, plain and simple.

Modern Sonic was given due criticism as well back in '11, and before then. Colors was rightly thrashed by some folk here for not only sticking a majority of the game in 2D, but allowing said 2D to be little more than precision platforming that's counter-intuitive not only to the gameplay mechanics present in the Modern formula, but to Sonic as a whole. Generations only did a little to ameliorate those concerns, and the full 3D bits that were once praised as being the cream of the crop are still a pain in the rear to control and aim. And, as always, the formula builds itself on the automation principle that many fans aren't too keen on. Forces' first level is somehow shorter and less impressive than Green Hill Act 2 or Tropical Resort 1.

We're not looking at Forces in a vacuum where the last two relevant entries didn't exist; many of the things you're reading are longstanding criticisms of the formula that Forces is built upon. It's not a strong foundation, and the only reason it took hold was because Unleashed's speed levels were unusually polished and were especially fun in comparison to the Werehog, was featured in the first '3D' Sonic game without a major genre-roulette like gimmick, and as such had gone through enough iterations to be considered a mainstay for Generations. Now they're back at it again and the problems of the Modern formula and a stunted Classic formula are starting to become more apparent and less forgivable; and the recent outpouring of negative gameplay impressions are vindicating those criticisms.

[Sega DogTagz]

13 minutes ago, Sir Laptop said:

How can the gameplay of Forces be bad, if 2/3 of it is the same as generations from what we have seen? If you're bashing Forces gameplay, then why don't you be more consistent across the board and bash Generations, Unleashed and Colours gameplay? After all, the gameplay for Modern Sonic in all of these games is the exact same style. It is a Texas-sized contradiction to bash Forces for using the same gameplay as Generations and try to claim that gameplay is bad, yet praise Generations' gameplay.

You have to look at the semantics of what people are criticizing. While there are a handful of people talking out of the side of their mouths when they do so, it is possible and even understandable to see why people who had fun and enjoyed Unleashed/Colors/Generations would in turn sour on what we've seen on Forces so far. The biggest component of this whole thing is father time.

Unleashed's Day stages, Colors and Generations were all received pretty well at the time of their release. But as the years go by, which is highlighted by the gap since the last major release, the negatives for of each of these playstyles became more apparent. Its not news to anyone that Colors heavy reliance on 2D and its blocky platforming were issues that needed to be addressed. You shouldn't be shocked to hear that while Classic Sonic in Gens was enjoyable, his non-physics based design left us on a sour note. Its common to hear Unleashed's glorious daytime stages get knocked for their lack of freedom. Things that on their own, wern't enough to sour the experience, but enough to hope that a follow up would build and improve.

So cue Sonic Forces. They chose Modern Park Ave. (or City Heights if you wanna call it that) to show off to a Sonic starved fandom, and what we got was the worst of what was wrong with the games before it. The stages heavy reliance on 2D and restrictive corridor boosting in 3D offers slim hope to people who had hoped for a step up from colors and unleashed. The re-introduction of Classic Sonic, which still makes no attempt to base its gameplay off of the physics of its heritage remains largely intact from what we saw in Generations - and that bit is even more of a slap to the face when you consider that Forces will be coming off the heels of Mania. The blocky platforming is back in force via the avatar. In all the levels we've seen so far, Sonic Team has yet to show us what makes Forces better. All we've seen are the lowlights of the games that share the same style.

Its not a total hypocrisy to praise Gens and knock Forces. So far, what we've seen lacks Unleahed's raw speed and adrenaline, lacks the best of Gen more open 3D stage design and camps on what everyone agrees is one of the biggest chinks in Colors armor. Granted they are clearly early stages, but Sonic Team did an absolutely atrocious job of picking stages to introduce their latest and greatest. None of us wanted to sit here and watch an 80/20 2D to 3D split in the next big Modern Sonic game. None of us wanted to see what little 3D we had left regress backwards from Gens. Its maddening.

Until we get some more footage on what Forces has learned from those past endeavors (particularly with Modern Sonic) then I wouldn't expect too many people to start changing their tunes. But as of right now, despite sharing the same style of those other games, its yet to do anything to set itself apart, hence the negative reception from many who were at the very least accepting of the boost formula before.

[DarkXZA]

I don't want to defend the game (since its has issues) but honestly some people here have some deep hatred for it. I didn't even know the game got some bad previews, the ones i read during E3 all ranged from positive to OK. Even Sonic Stadium own previews were positive and they are long time Sonic fans who actually played the game. Now I myself did get the chance to play the game and I do think Mania is the better one of the two but it's really sad to see some Sonic fans really want this game to fail.

Oh and a delay probably won't do much since the game is functional, unless you want them to change how the game works and feel entirely which could take years.