Jump to content
Happyguy1984

Should Sonic Forces be delayed until 2018?

Recommended Posts

To be completely honest here, this is the way I see the situation panning out for me, personally:

I enjoyed Sonic Generations. Modern Sonic's gameplay was pretty fun, and Classic wasn't terrible, per se... So, what's on offer in Forces seems adequate enough for at least some of my money. I'd say around $20, at the very least. Which is what I should expect: within around half a year of it's original release date, Generations began to appear for around this price, and not long after a permanent price drop was affixed to it. By the time it hit Steam, I was able to snag it for under $15.  Even if Modern Sonic is only a third of the game, by the time the game hits that $15 price point, I can reasonably expect mod support to have progressed to a decent level, and may even have access to a number of custom stages, which will expand upon the modern gameplay that I'm looking for.  So, for me, the game is coming out in 2018. There's no way I'm dropping MSRP on it, but I will buy it eventually. Same deal with Lost World; Waited for it to hit $15, and at that price, I can't help but feel at least somewhat satisfied with my purchase despite its flaws.


On the subject of delaying the game for more polish: The game as it is doesn't seem to suffer from any technical issues that would require further refinement in that regard (unless we're talking about the Switch version). Only reason I could see for them to do that is to add more content. If they were planning to do that, they'd likely just opt to make it DLC at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

5 hours ago, DarkXZA said:

I don't want to defend the game (since its has issues) but honestly some people here have some deep hatred for it. I didn't even know the game got some bad previews, the ones i read during E3 all ranged from positive to OK. Even Sonic Stadium own previews were positive and they are long time Sonic fans who actually played the game. Now I myself did get the chance to play the game and I do think Mania is the better one of the two but it's really sad to see some Sonic fans really want this game to fail.

Oh and a delay probably won't do much since the game is functional, unless you want them to change how the game works and feel entirely which could take years.

Right, it's hate.

It's not like we're committed Sonic fans who constantly support the series, and we've waited 4 years for an announcement of a new Sonic game, while left completely in the dark and having to endure the Boom period and a game that has no identity is what we got.

It's not like all of us here want this series to succed, to reach its full potential, to improve on itself and move forward.

This game pissed everybody off here because as Indigo and Sega DogTagz said just above your post, it's taking all the low points of the boost formula and mashing them together. It's only missing the Werehog at this point.

If you like what you're seeing, cool, great for you. I'm jealous because I don't and I really want to. But I just don't and I can't bring myself to like something that's as halfassed as Forces is.

We've all analyzed the game, said what's wrong with it, given constructive criticism, lost hours arguing with people  on what would make Sonic better, where we want the series to go. Some of us could tell what was wrong with classic Sonic by the 11 seconds footage we got from the Switch direct. This game isn't doing anything new, quite the opposite. We don't need the full game to know what direction they're going in.

Believe me, what moves us isn't hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Sonikko said:

 

Right, it's hate.

It's not like we're committed Sonic fans who constantly support the series, and we've waited 4 years for an announcement of a new Sonic game, while left completely in the dark and having to endure the Boom period and a game that has no identity is what we got.

It's not like all of us here want this series to succed, to reach its full potential, to improve on itself and move forward.

This game pissed everybody off here because as Indigo and Sega DogTagz said just above your post, it's taking all the low points of the boost formula and mashing them together. It's only missing the Werehog at this point.

If you like what you're seeing, cool, great for you. I'm jealous because I don't and I really want to. But I just don't and I can't bring myself to like something that's as halfassed as Forces is.

We've all analyzed the game, said what's wrong with it, given constructive criticism, lost hours arguing with people  on what would make Sonic better, where we want the series to go. Some of us could tell what was wrong with classic Sonic by the 11 seconds footage we got from the Switch direct. This game isn't doing anything new, quite the opposite. We don't need the full game to know what direction they're going in.

Believe me, what moves us isn't hate.

I totally agree with you that the game has issues and yes you are free to judge based on what we've seen so far. However I still think it's too early to say how the game will turnout. We've only seen the first levels of each character. Staring with Modern Sonic, his level didn't have much going on really (and maybe it's not even the full level) but Green Hill from Gens isn't what I call a great level design and that's okay since the first level is there to teach us the basics. Also from what I read the controls are refined compared to past boost games. I don't have much to say regarding OC's gameplay but I think it has the potential. As for Classic Sonic he shouldn't have been included and is the weakest part of the game (we can blame Mania for that?). That's my opinion and I still believe Sonic Team can give us a game just as awesome as Gens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, DarkXZA said:

I totally agree with you that the game has issues and yes you are free to judge based on what we've seen so far. However I still think it's too early to say how the game will turnout. We've only seen the first levels of each character. Staring with Modern Sonic, his level didn't have much going on really (and maybe it's not even the full level) but Green Hill from Gens isn't what I call a great level design and that's okay since the first level is there to teach us the basics. Also from what I read the controls are refined compared to past boost games. I don't have much to say regarding OC's gameplay but I think it has the potential. As for Classic Sonic he shouldn't have been included and is the weakest part of the game (we can blame Mania for that?). That's my opinion and I still believe Sonic Team can give us a game just as awesome as Gens.

The critics we've moved against the game go well beyond that. We're talking about design philosophy and level design approach, which is something the first level can easily tell. By looking at classic Green Hill it's obvious the level design got miles worse in comparison to Generations GHZ (and Generations didn't have stellar classic level design to begin with). There are even more booster than before, the physics approach is all wrong.

When classic Sonic hits a boostpad a scripted event gets triggered that sets classic's speed to a set amount. After the event ends the speed returns to the standard cap, which is something jarring to see. It's something even Sonic 4 got right, I don't see why Forces should get a free pass. Generations got it right. That means the characters movements don't have momentum, just like in Lost World.

Instead of going forward, we're going backwards.

Classic Sonic shows he has no momentum at all even when hitting robots. Sonic is going forward, jumps on a robot while going almost fullspeed, after bouncing, he drops like a rock just because the player isn't pushing forward. That's not how it should work, and again, Generations wasn't as bad.

Those being the first levels doesn't mean that the later levels will magically play differently. If Classic Sonic works that way in the first level, then it works the same way in the last level. The same can be said for Modern.

More complex level design =/= good level design. The later levels being more complex doesn't make them good levels at all. A simple level can be a great level, GHZ in Sonic 1, a complex level can be really bad, any act from Shattered Crystals. It's all about design approach.

The boost formula needs a huge overhaul if it's here to stay, and Forces clearly isn't doing that. More of the same doesn't cut it for Sonic (more of the same isn't the right way to say it either, since Forces is a downgrade from Generations so far), since we've been through some very bad games. The last acceptable Sonic game was Generations and that was 2011. 6 years have passed. The Boost formula has been a thing for 10 years now, and they still haven't perfected it, they haven't nailed it, they're regressing.

That's inexcusable.

 

EDIT: The OC gameplay is pretty close to Colours, and almost everyone agrees that Generations was the best game in the formula, I don't see why going back one step makes sense. They did add that Wispon thing, but it's just something that is there. The enemies just stand there in rows waiting to get shotted by that weapon. It's not really thought out, it's different for the sake of being different.

And the grappling hook works really bad, it keeps no momentum and stops the character in mid-air before attaching to it. It pretty much acts like homing attack chains in the end, not like a real grappling hook should act. Imagine if those things had the same physics as Spiderman's spider webs, can you imagine the possibilities? But no, we're stuck with that.

 

 

Same concept, different approaches. Which one looks more exciting and thought out? Which one opens up many different possibilities, which one is as limited as can be?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yknow, on the topic of classic Sonics gameplay, it's baffling to me, since Sega likes copying their past ideas so much, why can't they just replicate the Genesis physics engine? I know they likely don't have the original code or for whatever reason it would take some time to rebuild but if they're so dedicated to getting it right, why the hell not? 

Christian Whitehead, a person who didn't work for Sega at the time was able to make a near perfect recreation of the physics engine and yet Sonic Team themselves can't (or just refuse to)? I mean refining the boost formula is one thing but there's no reason the classic 2D sections should look so lazy or play so sloppy... there's years of 2D design to draw inspiration from including the game that's being developed across the hall in Sonic Mania... it's just sad 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Forces and Spider Man don't look like they give you much freedom on how to use the hook/grapple. Spider Man looks more impressive I guess.

Avatar has potential too. If they accomodate enemy placement and layout on how different wispons work there could be enough variation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Spider-Man example looks like you at least have control over the arc and direction of your swing, and this in combination might affect your speed. There's automated bits such as the wall-scrambling/running when you hit a building, but even that is a far sight better than Forces' new take on the Homing Attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Joseph Mello said:

About the classic Sonic gameplay footage we saw... 

I think that the physics will be fixed until release. What if the Green Hill we saw is a demo from early 2016 or 15? We don't know.

Given there were changes as recent as between the Nintendo Direct where it was revealed and the E3 demo, it's definitely not that old. Even then, why would they provide 2 year old demos to base up-to-date previews from the press on? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The Spider-Man example looks like you at least have control over the arc and direction of your swing, and this in combination might affect your speed. There's automated bits such as the wall-scrambling/running when you hit a building, but even that is a far sight better than Forces' new take on the Homing Attack.

The homing attack for Avatar is more like a punishment if you didn't have Wispons energy...it is clearly less powerful. I think it was the never the focus.

But yeah the grappling in Forces has no dynamics, its like a spring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

How can the gameplay of Forces be bad, if 2/3 of it is the same as generations from what we have seen?

You just answered your own question.

11 hours ago, Sir Laptop said:

If you're bashing Forces gameplay, then why don't you be more consistent across the board and bash Generations, Unleashed and Colours gameplay? After all, the gameplay for Modern Sonic in all of these games is the exact same style. 

It is a Texas-sized contradiction to bash Forces for using the same gameplay style as Generations and try to claim that gameplay is bad, yet praise Generations' gameplay.

So... you mean... like... if I were to say, play Sonic Generations, after a few years of not playing it... and I found it a bit disappointing... And reported on that... would that do?

Yeah because the last time I did that was back in 2014.  And guess what, I didn't enjoy it much at all.

Quote

Meanwhile, all of the negative previews I've seen, are from Nintendolife, a couple of average joe's, and from the faction of the Sonic fanbase that has been mocked to hell and back on the internet.

The difference is what? One writes under a popular website? The other doesn't?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If modders add Modern Sonic with boost into the Classic Green Hill Zone, I think that might be more fun. In Generations, the Classic levels were more claustrophobic, so Modern would not feel right.

On 12.7.2017 at 3:58 PM, Indigo Rush said:

I legitimately wonder when Sonic Team lost touch with how Sonic Rush was designed. It's the proto-boost game, all in 2D. Cheap level design bits near the latter half granted, a majority of the experience is still really fun and keeps the sidescrolling fluid. (AND has a playable character that isn't Sonic)

Rush had less level design than most Sonic games...it's completly forgettable.

I don't get that...like all of Forces looks more engaging, so did Sonic 4 and other games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Joseph Mello said:

About the classic Sonic gameplay footage we saw... 

I think that the physics will be fixed until release. What if the Green Hill we saw is a demo from early 2016 or 15? We don't know.

As others have pointed out, physics is not something you fix in 4 months, it's something that has to be decided on the design table, and the whole game has to be built around it. Forces has been built aruond the absence of momentum. 

A(nother) Sonic game has been built around the absence of momentum. I can't believe I'm writing that sentence.

2 hours ago, ChikaBoing said:

The homing attack for Avatar is more like a punishment if you didn't have Wispons energy...it is clearly less powerful. I think it was the never the focus.

But yeah the grappling in Forces has no dynamics, its like a spring.

The Homing Attack of the OC is botched up because you're supposed to use the weapons, and even then, if both are always available, I can't see why it is so clunky. 

Anyway, the grappling hook, as I explained in my post, is nothing more than a glorified Homing-Attackable-Spring. Spiderman Homecoming looks like it lets Spiderman keep his momentum, change the arc, it's not even close to the implementation we've seen in Forces.

It just shows that the whole game is built around the absence of physics, nothing in the game reacts to them (except the robot parts after you destroy one).

I repeat, it's a Sonic game with absent physics.

Sonic 4 was bad because of it, Sonic Lost World was bad because of it, I can't see why Sonic Forces should get a free pass, especially when Generations wasn't this bad in that regard. Physics is what makes Sonic stand out from the other platformers. 

We're in 2017, Super Mario Odissey is coming out, that game has rolling physics and Mario reacts beautifully to the terrain.

Sonic Forces is coming out, Sonic doesn't react to physics, ever. Any interaction with the terrain is meaningless, the slopes might aswell be flat, the ramps might aswell be spring chains. 

What a time to be alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Joseph Mello said:

About the classic Sonic gameplay footage we saw... 

I think that the physics will be fixed until release. What if the Green Hill we saw is a demo from early 2016 or 15? We don't know.

That demo would be made using the latest/most stable build, so its more than likely it was decided upon some point around May of this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'd avoid using your memory as a dismissive to my point; not being able to remember the level design of a game from 2005 isn't my problem.

My argument rests on the fact that Sonic Rush employs philosophies that better facilitate the abilities and mechanics of the boost games, namely speed and the preservation of boost energy, knowing when to not boost, and saving precision platforming for later levels, or otherwise in a sparing amount. 

Sonic isn't about the stop-and-go meticulous platforming that builds the foundation of Colors' 2D, it's about the speed and it's maintenance, both of which Rush understands; until it places said precision platforming over bottomless pits, in which case that only further proves my point.

I replayed it often enough over the years and it's not memorable. I think it has really crap level design. Rush Adventure was the better standard with level gimmicks and so on.

I guess the flow is pretty good in a way (like in Advance 2), but I forget about the next moment. I remember the set-pieces and terrains of the original games, the 3D Sonic games...but not for Rush.

Colors was paced pretty normally outside the gimmicky small acts, I thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...I don't get it. My argument isn't about whether you remember it or not. That's not a factor. I'm talking about how the levels are designed. I honestly don't care if you can't remember any of the level gimmicks, that isn't my point. I'd say it again, but I feel like that'd be a waste of both of our time.

I'll grant you that Sonic 4 and Colors (Wii) 2D are more memorable to me too, but that's because I think they're crap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Indigo Rush said:

I'm talking about how the levels are designed.

I am too tough. How well a level is designed constitutes to how memorable it is.

How Rush is a good standard for level design is beyond me however. Complaining about Colors and Forces afterwards is strange, but yeah no use in getting into arguments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't say that Rush had stellar level design, but at least it was coherent with what it had going on. It was a fun game all around, even if the level design itself is not that memorable (even though I can easily remember many of the levels, the rails that need good timing in the first level to speedrun, the platforms that spin around and the auto scrolling section at the end of the desert level, the moving blocks in the base, the gimmicks in the casino, etc).

The boost games have all had a weird direction, the worst offender being Colours until Forces comes out imho. The level design went for slow, blocky precision platforming, while the character moved like in a standard boost game.

At least, again, Rush was pretty coherent. I wouldn't like that to be the direction of the franchise, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Colors did not have precision blocky platforming all the time. Unless you talk about some of the asset re-use stages in Colors (which are crap), most of the stages you can still speed through in some fashion. 

Rush did not even have that kind variation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ChikaBoing said:

I am too tough. How well a level is designed constitutes to how memorable it is.

How Rush is a good standard for level design is beyond me however. Complaining about Colors and Forces afterwards is strange, but yeah no use in getting into arguments.

If that were true, everyone would have forgotten 06 by now, and yet...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ChikaBoing said:

I am too tough. How well a level is designed constitutes to how memorable it is.

How Rush is a good standard for level design is beyond me however. Complaining about Colors and Forces afterwards is strange, but yeah no use in getting into arguments.

Memories are subjective, they don't matter in the grand scheme of things...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.