"Fun is Infinite"-- Impressions, Predictions, and Ideas About Sonic Forces's New Villain

[Mad Convoy]

Hello! I noticed that Infinite has been a topic of discussion in the status updates, so I thought I'd make a topic for him. He seems really contentious, so I also thought here would be a good place to gather positive and negative opinions on him. I did a search and couldn't find any topics on him, but please merge this if something like this already exists.

As for me, I think he seems really interesting. I wonder where he comes from and where his powers are from, as well as how he managed to recruit the likes of Shadow and Chaos. And he doesn't seem to be an alien or robot, so Sonic's finally breaking from that. And on a personal note, I love villains with an air of mystery surrounding them.

However, I do have some worries that he might not be written well. This is mostly because of Sonic Team's track record with dark, serious villains. The first thing that comes to mind is Mephiles and Black Doom, but you could also count the Deadly Six. All of them were hyped up as serious, game-changing villains, but in the game itself they were really flat, stereotypical, and often were boring, irritating, or some combination of the two. So fingers crossed that Sonic Team doesn't fall into the trap of making a dark villain flat and stereotyped.

What do you guys think?

[RedFox99]

9 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Hello! I noticed that Infinite has been a topic of discussion in the status updates, so I thought I'd make a topic for him. He seems really contentious, so I also thought here would be a good place to gather positive and negative opinions on him. I did a search and couldn't find any topics on him, but please merge this if something like this already exists.

As for me, I think he seems really interesting. I wonder where he comes from and where his powers are from, as well as how he managed to recruit the likes of Shadow and Chaos. And he doesn't seem to be an alien or robot, so Sonic's finally breaking from that. And on a personal note, I love villains with an air of mystery surrounding them.

However, I do have some worries that he might not be written well. This is mostly because of Sonic Team's track record with dark, serious villains. The first thing that comes to mind is Mephiles and Black Doom, but you could also count the Deadly Six. All of them were hyped up as serious, game-changing villains, but in the game itself they were really flat, stereotypical, and often were boring, irritating, or some combination of the two. So fingers crossed that Sonic Team doesn't fall into the trap of making a dark villain flat and stereotyped.

What do you guys think?

He does seem interesting but like you said they might end up making him stereotypical. I just realized that there aren't many "sympathetic" villains in the series.

[Mad Convoy]

Just now, RedFox99 said:

He does seem interesting but like you said they might end up making him stereotypical. I just realized that there aren't many "sympathetic" villains in the series.

Well, there is Merlina, who has empathetic and cold sides of her personality that drove her actions throughout Sonic and the Black Knight and made her really interesting to watch. However, I doubt Sonic Team is going to have such an awesome villain like her again-- though it is free to prove me wrong.

[RedFox99]

4 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Well, there is Merlina, who has empathetic and cold sides of her personality that drove her actions throughout Sonic and the Black Knight and made her really interesting to watch. However, I doubt Sonic Team is going to have such an awesome villain like her again-- though it is free to prove me wrong.

Forgot about her. She was an interesting antagonist. Would Chaos and Shadow count as sympathetic villains at least in their debut games?

[Blue Wisp]

3 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Forgot about her. She was an interesting antagonist. Would Chaos and Shadow count as sympathetic villains at least in their debut games?

Chaos had solemn intentions, he wanted to defend the Chaos Emeralds and the Chao. But Shadow, I can't see him as sympathetic at all. "My best friend got shot so I'll destroy the world" isn't what I would consider something with good intentions. 

Merlina, on the other hand, I absolutely love. She didn't want to destroy the world, she wanted to prevent his world from dying by... Taking over. Yeah. A bit childish, but her intentions were wholesome while the execution could've been better.

On the topic of Infinite, I guarantee you he'll show up maybe four times, talk shit to Sonic and overpower him on the first scene and then be defeated by end game and sent to the ever dread Limbopolis Zone where he'll spend the rest of his days playing poker with Void, Solaris, Dark Gaia and Mighty 

[JosepHenry]

We still don't have the flamboyant, sarcastic and totally insane villain trope yet. I think they could do that instead of Infinite being Lyric 2.0.

[Diogenes]

It's hard to say much about Infinite when we know so little about him. But his existence is worrying. It feels a lot like Sonic Team's trend of introducing a new villain who at some point supplants Eggman as the main threat. And that'd suck, even more than usual since they've got this premise of Eggman having basically already won...but, where even is he? We've only seen him in Classic Sonic's boss fight, which is who knows where and when given this game's premise, and not at all in the ruins of a city he's supposedly taken over. Why are we seeing this new clown but neither hide nor hair of Eggman?

Also to take a shot in the dark, I'm gonna say Infinite's deal is that he represents all the possible forms of the Avatar character from every other dimension, and at the end of the game your Avatar will have to fuse with Infinite so they become whole again. Except I don't actually think Sonic Team would do something that meta and the actual story will probably be much more boring.

1 minute ago, Wispy Jones said:

But Shadow, I can't see him as sympathetic at all. "My best friend got shot so I'll destroy the world" isn't what I would consider something with good intentions. 

Shadow was also brainwashed, remember. I'd say having the promise you made to your dying friend be forcibly twisted to the point that you end up doing the exact opposite of what she wanted deserves some degree of sympathy.

[Multikaris]

I think Infinite is a brainwashed Tikal.

 

Evidence?

 

* Why else would Chaos (and Shadow :3 "shippy shippy") be serving the Mad doctor other than an attempt to free Tikal or stay with her?

* The hair has an "Echidna" look to it, and a bit of a tribal vibe.

* The mask has a shape evoking an Echidna head. 

* There is no corresponding Infinite toy in Tomy's 2017 Sonic line. Unfortunately, a lot of toy companies skip out on "icky girls". See; the sad fate of the Avatar toyline.

* To appeal to Adventure fans by bringing back an old friend turned forcibly into a foe.

* Tikal got a comic by Sonic Team, alongside the many current members of the cast. 

[Blue Wisp]

40 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Shadow was also brainwashed, remember. I'd say having the promise you made to your dying friend be forcibly twisted to the point that you end up doing the exact opposite of what she wanted deserves some degree of sympathy.

Shadow was brainwashed?

Haven't played Sonic Adventure 2 in ages but I only remember the whole "You woke me up Eggman so I'm gonna serve you" thing. Aaaand that stupid as fuck plot point of Sonic doing a Chaos Control out of nowhere with a fake emerald. And how everyone confuses a black hedgehog with a blue hedgehog. And that out of nowhere rocket inside Eggman's pyramid... 

80% of Sonic Adventure 2's story is a little stupid once you look at it now...

But if Shadow was brainwashed... Uh, wasn't Shadow frozen right before Maria died and after Gerald was taken away? How could he get brainwashed? 

[Sega DogTagz]

Shadow wasn't brainwashed, he was just delusional

All that pent up furor and rage clouded his judgement to what Maria actually wanted for him in the long run. He was consumed by avenging her and making the people that took her away suffer.

It wasn't until Gerald's plan went into full effect, and a chance encounter with Amy, that Shadow has the moment of clarity necessary to remember her true words, un-jumble his justifications and power through to help save the day.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

Infinite looks like a rat.

 

Seriously though, I'd be surprised if infinite stayed loyal to eggman the whole game but I doubt it. I think sonic meets infinite and the other bad guys in city heights to strike some kind of deal with each other. "We will help you defeat the doctor but we get to do X" then they plot some kind of betrayal behind sonic and eggman's backs and sonic has to deal with them and eggman or something... idk.

Im halfway right Now asleep so that may have sounded awful like an idea

[Diogenes]

51 minutes ago, Wispy Jones said:

But if Shadow was brainwashed... Uh, wasn't Shadow frozen right before Maria died and after Gerald was taken away? How could he get brainwashed? 

It's not really clear how, but Gerald's diary mentions that he "completed" Shadow at some point after the ARK incident and Maria's death and left his revenge up to him. And that's what Shadow spends the whole game doing; as soon as Eggman releases him he starts manipulating Eggman to gather the emeralds and bring them to the ARK so he can launch it into Earth, just as Gerald planned.

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Shadow wasn't brainwashed, he was just delusional

All that pent up furor and rage clouded his judgement to what Maria actually wanted for him in the long run. He was consumed by avenging her and making the people that took her away suffer.

No.

[Blue Wisp]

24 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's not really clear how, but Gerald's diary mentions that he "completed" Shadow at some point after the ARK incident and Maria's death and left his revenge up to him. And that's what Shadow spends the whole game doing; as soon as Eggman releases him he starts manipulating Eggman to gather the emeralds and bring them to the ARK so he can launch it into Earth, just as Gerald planned.

After the ARK incident and Maria's death... But wasn't Gerald imprisoned outright after the ARK incident which means Shadow was already in stasis?

If he was, then GUN gave Gerald some time with the frozen Shadow while he was imprisoned? Why? If so that's stupid and it makes the whole crisis of SA2's story stupid. And GUN was already stupid enough to confuse two blatantly different hedgehogs.

It does make me give Shadow some sympathy if Gerald programmed those doomsday objectives in Shadow's mind. But how the FUCK did he do that while being imprisoned and Shadow being in stasis?

It'd make more sense if Gerald had a dead man's switch or contingency or something so that when he was captured Shadow automatically had the ARK shenanigans uploaded to his head or something, but if his diary says that he "completed" Shadow then Gerald must've tampered directly with Shadow's mind while the latter was in stasis and the former was imprisoned. 

Ugh.

My head hurts.

SA2's story is fucking stupid jesus christ.

EDIT: Okay I know the wikia isn't the most reliable source of information but I decided to look up a bit to clear my stuff up and... 

Quote

When the military later found Shadow and brought him to Prison Island for Gerald to continue his research,^[1]Gerald saw Maria among the list of casualties when the ARK was shut down and was grief-stricken. 

Why the fuck did GUN bring Shadow to an imprisoned Gerald. 

Fuck this story man. GUN is stupid as fuck.

[Chili Dawg]

I unno man, the government being incompetent trash is probably the most believable bit of SA2's story.

[Pawn]

7 hours ago, Wispy Jones said:

EDIT: Okay I know the wikia isn't the most reliable source of information but I decided to look up a bit to clear my stuff up and... 

Why the fuck did GUN bring Shadow to an imprisoned Gerald. 

Fuck this story man. GUN is stupid as fuck.

You don't buy a government wanting to use a superweapon for themselves? It's not exactly an original premise. They would have assumed that they could control Gerald.

 

8 hours ago, Wispy Jones said:

Shadow was brainwashed?

Haven't played Sonic Adventure 2 in ages but I only remember the whole "You woke me up Eggman so I'm gonna serve you" thing. Aaaand that stupid as fuck plot point of Sonic doing a Chaos Control out of nowhere with a fake emerald. And how everyone confuses a black hedgehog with a blue hedgehog. And that out of nowhere rocket inside Eggman's pyramid... 

80% of Sonic Adventure 2's story is a little stupid once you look at it now...

But if Shadow was brainwashed... Uh, wasn't Shadow frozen right before Maria died and after Gerald was taken away? How could he get brainwashed? 

I'm not going to deny that the story has problems, but I don't see major issues in what you've outlined above. Sonic already had a connection to the Chaos Emeralds and the fake possessed similar enough properties to allow him to use it. The only explanation we got for Super Sonic boiled down to 'positive emotions'. They only require a strong desire from him to activate it seems and in this case, he was about to die. It also illustrated that, at the time, he was probably superior to Shadow.

The confusion between Sonic and Shadow can be explained by GUN trying to cover events up or humans failing to distinguish differences between anthropomorphs. They're both hedgehogs that run fast... who's to say Sonic wasn't trying to hide his identity with a poor disguise? It's more believable than Clark Kent, which to this day is still considered a reasonable cover.

As for the rocket, it's Eggman... why wouldn't he have a spaceship hidden within his base?

[Roger_van_der_weide]

About Infinity, I don't know.
Honestly I think it's a stupid idea to introduce a new character amidst all these heavy fan favorites. What possible chance does he have to make an impression while sandwiched between Shadow and Eggman and the lot? I really wish it was just Dr. Eggman in charge.

I think Infinity is most likely just going to be a "functional" villain.
Like, that Sonic team NEEDS a villain to be dramatically defeated and destroyed at the end.
Can't do that to Zavok/ Metal/ Chaos Etc. We don't want Them to be dramatically killed off in an epic battle, of course they have to get redeemed, slip away or have a temporary truce with Sonic. (Well okay okay, I'm sure there's a few people who want love to see Shadow or Zavok bite the dust, but generally speaking...)

We got to have SOME kind of Brainless giant monster person to be spectacularly punched to death in the finale, ergo Infinity.
Well okay, we don't HAVE to, I think I would have preferred Eggman just be the bad guy and final boss and go away after being humiliated, but I suppose Sonic Team wants it to be more intense again.

So I think he won't be memorable at all, and just be in service for gameplay/ Drama purposes without leaving an impact.
Probably a good thing too, if they want Infinity to make an impression over the combined forces of Dr. Eggman, Shadow Etc., they'd have to make him so hammy and over the top it'll just feel forced.

 

 

Yeah yeah, haha, "Forced"....

As for SA2, I tend to think that just accepting that GUN and the goverment in Sonic adventure 2 is incompotent/ stupid/ desperate makes most of the story go down way smoother.

After all, they ARE blowing up bridges and infastructures with their jets and sending giant trucks crashing trough narrow alleyways in the city.  So it's not like Sonic Team is doing their best to make them come across as particularly smart or responsible.
GUN was written into the series to cause chaos and havoc in the levels, not to make sense.
The only human face we get for GUN is the Commander from Shadow's game, and he's a cartoonishly trigger-happy buffoon.

And I don't know why so many people are upset about it, I just find it hilarious. I mean, hey, the olden "It's a talking hedgehog chasing a fat man with a mustache" argument that's always used against SA2. It's a cartoon for kids. Good, so here's an entire army filled to the brim with Yosemite sam's and Wile E. coyote's going after Sonic. Hilarity ensues. That's great.

Well, so what do you prefer? Crazy hyper paranoid drill sergeants Micheal Baying entire cities, or real genuine politics?
Or Eggman being a decent proper threat? Well okay, that would be better, but crazy militairy mooks is a close second for me.
And in today's real world with the police riots last year and the...well, let's just say SA2's story is becoming increasingly more realistic by the day. I see Yosemite Sam and Elmer Fudd on TV everytime there'a political debate going on.

It's what Amy's speech to Shadow at the end basically boils down to; Yeah the humans are a bunch of dumb idiots but deep inside they mean well.".

And yeah, I think Shadow is mostly misguided in his actions. Combination between blinded by anger and being as naieve as a child.
After all, he spend his entire life in the Ark, with Maria as only morality guide.
The scientists there had to have an army send after them to put a stop to their crazy experiments, doesn't sound like Grade A Parental material to me.
Not really a social upbringing that teaches him how to make his own choices or have a sense of emphathy and justice.
He spend his entirely life likely blindly following orders from Gerald Robotnik, and Shadow can hardly tell if that guy's an insane psychopath or not.
Outside of Maria, he hasn't interacted with anyone who wasn't a crazy insane/ evil manipulating person up until Amy starts talking to him.
And I suppose even with her, "not crazy" might be debatable to some, but relatively speaking.

 

 

[Blue Wisp]

2 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

After all, they ARE blowing up bridges and infastructures with their jets and sending giant trucks crashing trough narrow alleyways in the city.  So it's not like Sonic Team is doing their best to make them come across as particularly smart or responsible.
GUN was written into the series to cause chaos and havoc in the levels, not to make sense.
The only human face we get for GUN is the Commander from Shadow's game, and he's a cartoonishly trigger-happy buffoon.

That's a good point. 

Yeah I get what I did wrong. I was expecting a story similar to I don't know, Tomb Raider or Metroid Prime or Dishonored out of a cartoon hedgehog. Stuff like that is what caused some hideous stuff like Sonic 06's or Shadow the Hedgehog's story. 

I'm not saying Sonic should not have a serious story. But it can have serious themes while being rather lighthearted or without being grimdark. 

...

Kind of like Forces seemed to be with the reveal trailer. 

I hope Forces doesn't disappoint and crash 'n burn because it has plenty of people to satisfy. It'd be a bit of a disaster. 

[Sega DogTagz]

17 hours ago, Diogenes said:

No.

You sure about that, because his scene with Amy in SA2 and Gerald's final journal entry in Battle both point out that Shadow was specifically designed to be able to see the "truth" once he overcame the desires and squabbles that cause conflict in humanity. Namely the rage, the desires for petty emotions and revenge.

[Diogenes]

I mean, Shadow does cut through the bullshit and remember Maria's actual wish eventually, but he pretty clearly had his brain fucked with and wasn't just blinded by his own rage. Otherwise why did he do exactly what Gerald wanted?

[Sega DogTagz]

Just now, Diogenes said:

I mean, Shadow does cut through the bullshit and remember Maria's actual wish eventually, but he pretty clearly had his brain fucked with and wasn't just blinded by his own rage. Otherwise why did he do exactly what Gerald wanted?

Shadow wanted to make humanity pay and knew the easiest, fastest way to destroy the planet. Shadow would have been just have devastated as Gerald's loss of Maria and its not surprising to see him come to the same kill em all conclusion. The same thing that drove Geralds to doom humanity fueled Shadow's desire to do the exact same thing.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, Shadow does cut through the bullshit and remember Maria's actual wish eventually, but he pretty clearly had his brain fucked with and wasn't just blinded by his own rage. Otherwise why did he do exactly what Gerald wanted?

 

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Shadow wanted to make humanity pay and knew the easiest, fastest way to destroy the planet. Shadow would have been just have devastated as Gerald's loss of Maria and its not surprising to see him come to the same kill em all conclusion. The same thing that drove Geralds to doom humanity fueled Shadow's desire to do the exact same thing.

I'll be honest, I was kind of under the impression that it was a little bit of both. Gerald DID tamper with Shadow's mind, but I'm also sure that Shadow was probably also driven by his own anger and hatred  for what humanity had cost him and Gerald mutually to some degree, and may end up choosing to "interpret" Maria's final words in his own twisted way. So even if Gerald hadn't done anything to him, Shadow would probably still have a lot of anger towards GUN and commit some sort of act against them. Whether it would have led to attempted mass genocide is another matter, but the point stands.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Shadow wanted to make humanity pay and knew the easiest, fastest way to destroy the planet.

How? Gerald didn't have this stuff set up before Maria died. At what point did Shadow learn about Gerald's plan? Or was Shadow just planning to use the Eclipse Cannon, and activated Gerald's revenge plan completely coincidentally?

1 minute ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I'll be honest, I was kind of under the impression that it was a little bit of both. Gerald DID tamper with Shadow's mind, but I'm also sure that Shadow was probably also driven by his own anger and hatred  for what humanity had cost him and Gerald mutually to some degree, and may end up choosing to "interpret" Maria's final words in his own twisted way. So even if Gerald hadn't done anything to him, Shadow would probably still have a lot of anger towards GUN and commit some sort of act against them. Whether it would have led to attempted mass genocide is another matter, but the point stands.

Having anger is one thing. Reinterpreting his promise to her from "protect humanity" to "annihilate humanity" is a bit too far to buy.

[Sega DogTagz]

26 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How? Gerald didn't have this stuff set up before Maria died. At what point did Shadow learn about Gerald's plan? Or was Shadow just planning to use the Eclipse Cannon, and activated Gerald's revenge plan completely coincidentally?

Shadow knew about the power of the Eclipse cannon and what it was designed to do (destroy a small planetoid). He knew that it required all the chaos emeralds. That's all that really matters. Either way the Earth gets destroyed, happy coincidence with Gerald or not. Gerald's revenge plan likely hinged on Shadow doing what would have come naturally.

and technically speaking, when it refers to him completing project Shadow following his incarceration, that could well refer to the Biolizard, as the Shadow we all know could have already been completed and was walking and talking with Maria prior to the Arc incident. All the madness and insanity could have been poured into that poor creature, thus explaining its raging hard-on for carrying out Geralds wishes.

 

Shadow was a total blank slate even before Maria died. There were cut-scenes devoted to showing him questioning his existence - even in the face of bring people happiness propaganda. Is it really so hard to believe that a massive tragedy was all it took to make him see nothing but red?

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Shadow knew about the power of the Eclipse cannon and what it was designed to do (destroy a small planetoid). He knew that it required all the chaos emeralds. That's all that really matters. Either way the Earth gets destroyed, happy coincidence with Gerald or not. Gerald's revenge plan likely hinged on Shadow doing what would have come naturally.

and technically speaking, when it refers to him completing project Shadow following his incarceration, that could well refer to the Biolizard, as the Shadow we all know could have already been completed and was walking and talking with Maria prior to the Arc incident. All the madness and insanity could have been poured into that poor creature, thus explaining its raging hard-on for carrying out Geralds wishes.

Ok so Gerald's diary ends with this:

Quote

Based on my original projections, I was able to complete my project, Shadow. I designed its mind to be perfect, pure. I will leave everything to him. If you wish, release and awaken it, to the world. If you wish to fill the world with destruction…

So the Shadow that he "completed" is the one that he left to carry out his revenge. And that's exactly what Shadow, the hedgehog, does. The biolizard isn't even released until the ARK is already falling. And I doubt it would have much luck collecting Chaos Emeralds even if it had been released earlier, being a blind idiot lizard on life support stuck in the core of a space colony.

And if Shadow wasn't working under Gerald's orders, how did Gerald's plan even happen? The ARK was shut down after the incident where Maria was killed. How would he be able to reprogram it to fall? Hell, how'd he get his speech from a Prison Island cell, seemingly just before his execution, to play when the colony drop was set off?

[Sega DogTagz]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Ok so Gerald's diary ends with this:

So the Shadow that he "completed" is the one that he left to carry out his revenge. And that's exactly what Shadow, the hedgehog, does. The biolizard isn't even released until the ARK is already falling. And I doubt it would have much luck collecting Chaos Emeralds even if it had been released earlier, being a blind idiot lizard on life support stuck in the core of a space colony.

If you want to grasp at straws with me, we could call that a mute point. considering the original intent of the Eclipse canon, its likely that if Shadow hadn't been released or failed to acquire all seven emeralds necessary to start the doomsday sequence, then G.U.N. would have upon the return of the black comet. Which would have worked out as a simultaneous middle finger to both the humans and the black arms. Gerald would be smiling in his grave.

GUN clearly knew of the canon and even knew enough about it to fix the damage Sonic did to it. Gerald could have guesstimated their capabilities and banked on that. The Biolizard was free to wallow in its own filth. Someone, at some-point was going to bring it the emeralds it needed.

 

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And if Shadow wasn't working under Gerald's orders, how did Gerald's plan even happen? The ARK was shut down after the incident where Maria was killed. How would he be able to reprogram it to fall? Hell, how'd he get his speech from a Prison Island cell, seemingly just before his execution, to play when the colony drop was set off?

How he coordinated all that from jail is beyond my comprehension. He's an Eggman? He's got a master plan? Tails reprograms supercomputers with Dish Detergent and a toothpick. Maybe Gerald build a long distance hacking terminal out of his left molar and some nose hair.

F*ck if I know.