Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Ok, I want to address this on two levels, because I don't entirely disagree but I feel this needs some perspective:

This interpretation requires that you see Sonic & Eggman in the worst possible light. Eggman (generally speaking) isn't a monster and he has moral standings that he won't cross when push comes to shove. The Shadow comparison still makes sense because, memory manipulation or not, Shadow still choose to do all of those bad things and that I feel was Sonic's point. For the sake of comparison, Eggman thought that Gerald's plan was too extreme while Shadow had no compunctions carrying it out and someone else had to convince him to help.

Here's my two issues with this.

1) I don't think you can say memory manipulation or not. Because his memory was manipulated, its not a did or did not thing. When that " spell " was broken , he immediately did the right thing. Like if shadow's arc was like a zuko kinda thing where it was over the course of several games to start doing good stuff. Like SA2's ending happened like 3 games later, then like I would be with you it would be clear even when undercontrol of his own own memory and mind he made choices. This isn't the case, the stuff he was made to believe ( as melodramatic as it was ) was so drastic as soon as that stopped happening he changed. It was damn near immediate. Its very clear while shadow is upset at GUN for being GUN , that shadow would have if gerald hadn't messed with his head. Its made very clear in the next few games too where shadow has ample oppertunity to I dunno blow up every gun facility in existence. Outside of noncanon endings in his own game, he doesn't. I think its very clear that with geralds own admission he was a bit of vengeful asshole and fucked with his own son's head to get that revenge taking away his autonomy in doing so.

2) Eggman IS a monster generally speaking. Eggman doesn't need memory manipulation. He regularly steals living things to shove them into robots to power them. Ruins the environment and regularly summons gods with flagrant disregard for what they will do to people in attempts to take over the worlds(s). He pissed on the moon for god sakes, who even does that?! Seriously though this is a guy who under every opportunity under his own normally functioning non programmed mental faculties. Decides to inact plans to be a dictator  , the last game was literally him doing the thing he wanted and taking over the world so hard that it was a resistance scenario. Eggman does not care about your petty morality and is willing to murder, steal , enslave and often all three to get to his end goal. Eggman is a monster.

The thing is  you aren't supposed to think about eggman like that. Yes eggman can very easily be a hammer over the head representation of " dictators are bad, Pollution is bad , fight the power", however he's a very cartoonish representation of that. You aren't supposed to think of him think of him that seriously especially with his game interpretations. He's either cartoonishly evil in classic games whipping out death stars or giant robots with his visage. Or in the modern games a goofball who seems evil but doesn't really have the follow through or the ability to plan ahead to make those plans mean something. He is often outsmarted by his help, or summons or creations or what have you because its supposed to reinforce he's kind of a goofball. Eggman is the character you are supposed to take the LEAST seriously. Everytime eggman is on the screen you expect him to screw up and he often does. You are not supposed to actually think about his actions seriously because when you do , you go " this guy is a dictator " . Its a collective ludonarrative dissonance that we as an audience have decided to go with because we like the characters place in the narrative. Its like Team Rocket , they work for a mob/terrorist organization that steals pokemon and are willing to at least leave people in deadly situations whilst doing so if not try and kill them. But you don't think about that shit because its jessie and james. Prepare for trouble, and make it double. There are other more serious characters for that , they are goofballs that are occasionally a bit more serious when the story needs it and less so when it doesn't.

When sonic or the comic itself starts calling eggman's morality into question, it makes the reader and more so the series have to think about what eggman is. And that's a dictator. I'm not saying shadow is perfect either, he ain't. While yes I do think shadow wasn't under normal mental faculties in SA2, do I think he feels that bad for some of  it? Nope. The most casualties that happened were on a GUN base. He's probably more than fine with that innocents were deffo on that base. And while I think the true ending of shadow's game implied to true path, Shadow probably killed some gun soilders on the way to that true good ending, you think they stopped shooting at him when he showed his " I'm doing the good route card " nah he defended himself. Shadow is a guy in this scenario willing to kill for the greater good, while I like shadow I think in most cases that mentality kinda starts off on the negative end of the morality spectrum. He is by no means an angel. But to compare him to a dictator... no that's not it. That speaks ill of the person who makes that comparison. On many levels.

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And now for the second part of this....Eggman, in this particularly continuity is pretty...horrible. He basically unleashed a worldwide apocalypse and doesn't even really seem to care about it. And that's what I mean when this continuity is murky; it's conflating Eggman's more benign villainy from the games with the same Eggman who just unleashed the apocalypse here. And yes, Eggman has unleashed threats that he can't control in the past, but in this particular case, he created it. 

I don't think there is an inherent moral difference here. That's like saying I dunno eggman found a gun and decided to rob a store vs He made a gun and decided to rob a store. Yes one has a bit more agency in that the intent is there to learn how to make a gun, but he made an active decision to do so. One just requires a bit less work on his end. Work smart not hard.

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I wouldn't go as far to say that Sonic's actions make him a terrible person; Sonic's entire personality is turning the other cheek and letting bygones be bygones and wouldn't wish harm on even his worst enemies, so I don't think it's fair to fault him over that even if it's biting him in the ass in this particular example. 

I would say so, not just because of all the stuff I said.

But also , asshole thing to do. The suggestion is that shadow, when he was being abused and manipulated by his creator from beyond the grave is the same as a dictator. While again I don't think shadow feels that bad a gun base got blown up, he probably feels kinda shitty he almost did the one thing his best friend didn't want him to do because his creator abused him and messed with his head. And to use that as a moral comparison point on the part of sonic is fucking gross to be blunt. And speaks to how little of an argument those writing sonic actually had when this was made. Its like if during the argument that shadow and knuckles had whilst fighting in the archie comics, shadow instead of suggesting knuckles find a new path, said the emerald is why his family is dead and if he follows their path he will die too. While yes in both scenarios there might be a kernel of truth, like "If you play judge jury and executioner too much every problems looks like a guillotine" and maybe "blindy following traditions can lead to your own demise."  Both parties both in the real scenario and in the hypothetical one aren't doing the thing enough or aren't " fallen " enough to warrant that talk. Shadow wasn't some guy killing everyone he ran across if he did forces wouldn't have happened. He was a guy willing to do something that due to the comic now evoking canon with eggman's deeds is kinda justified in this willingness to do the thing.

So in this scenario it isn't sonic calling out some character flaw, its sonic being emotionally manipulative with a subjective sensitive to shadow in one of the worst ways possible. Sonic wasn't being sonic in that scene, he was scourge. He was a manipulative douche and it might have actually been better for him to bring up maria because at least that would have been an appeal to shadow's inherent sense of right and justice rather than comparing his issues with his " father " to that of a willing fascist. He doesn't want to wish harm on his worst enemies, but emotionally manipulating a guy who you consider a hero as well? That's above board?

I like Ian Flynn , I hope he writes TV and movies and shit some day. But IMO this was a bad call, and his continued desires to make eggman some super serious character that can be called into moral question continues to open up the dialog of " Why don't they kill the dictator" . When the characters a dictator that's kinda hard question to deny, but when its about a guy who's lost his memories? That's an easier moral ground to tread. And a more interesting one for this series.

[PC the Hedgehog]

Why is Zor rhyming everything he says? That's...not something he does.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

this. I have yet to see amy be amy without this looming over her character

I mean, there was issue 2, which was arguably the best of the debut issues.

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If I'm not misrembering when they literally drive under the sea

 

Okay, I thought so.

I think this came up in the relevant thread a week or two ago: Espio is kind of straight-faced yet still seen as cool compared to most of the other characters, but is also part of the comedic group of weirdos among the cast. So most of the side continuities tend to give him moments/traits of being not so above it all to compensate and get more out of him.

They've kinda been doing the same thing with Zavok lately, now that I think about it. Which is sorta ironic.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Ok, I want to address this on two levels, because I don't entirely disagree but I feel this needs some perspective:

This interpretation requires that you see Sonic & Eggman in the worst possible light. Eggman (generally speaking) isn't a monster and he has moral standings that he won't cross when push comes to shove. The Shadow comparison still makes sense because, memory manipulation or not, Shadow still choose to do all of those bad things and that I feel was Sonic's point. For the sake of comparison, Eggman thought that Gerald's plan was too extreme while Shadow had no compunctions carrying it out and someone else had to convince him to help.

And now for the second part of this....Eggman, in this particularly continuity is pretty...horrible. He basically unleashed a worldwide apocalypse and doesn't even really seem to care about it. And that's what I mean when this continuity is murky; it's conflating Eggman's more benign villainy from the games with the same Eggman who just unleashed the apocalypse here. And yes, Eggman has unleashed threats that he can't control in the past, but in this particular case, he created it. 

 

 

I wouldn't go as far to say that Sonic's actions make him a terrible person; Sonic's entire personality is turning the other cheek and letting bygones be bygones and wouldn't wish harm on even his worst enemies, so I don't think it's fair to fault him over that even if it's biting him in the ass in this particular example. 

It's worth noting that Eggman among other things in this comic is drawing from Forces, where he gave a psychopath the infinitesmal power to directly slaughter hundreds of mobians and was even planning long-term to drop a sun on them.

.

22 minutes ago, PC the Hedgehog said:

 

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Why is Zor rhyming everything he says? That's...not something he does.

 

Yeah, I noticed that but forgot to comment on it.   

I think it's trying to work in something from the Japanese version of Lost World, but I'm not too versed in that outside of what I remember from the cutscenes. With that said, I do know that it's vaguely implied or at least inferrable that he's more into (for lack of a more general word) romance than he let's on through certain musical cues and a line from the afformentioned cutscenes. 

Also, didn't somebody claim he and Zeena were in Runners a while back?

[DabigRG]

Doggone Timeouts.

[Kuzu]

16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Here's my two issues with this.

1) I don't think you can say memory manipulation or not. Because his memory was manipulated, its not a did or did not thing. When that " spell " was broken , he immediately did the right thing. Like if shadow's arc was like a zuko kinda thing where it was over the course of several games to start doing good stuff. Like SA2's ending happened like 3 games later, then like I would be with you it would be clear even when undercontrol of his own own memory and mind he made choices. This isn't the case, the stuff he was made to believe ( as melodramatic as it was ) was so drastic as soon as that stopped happening he changed. It was damn near immediate. Its very clear while shadow is upset at GUN for being GUN , that shadow would have if gerald hadn't messed with his head. Its made very clear in the next few games too where shadow has ample oppertunity to I dunno blow up every gun facility in existence. Outside of noncanon endings in his own game, he doesn't. I think its very clear that with geralds own admission he was a bit of vengeful asshole and fucked with his own son's head to get that revenge taking away his autonomy in doing so.

2) Eggman IS a monster generally speaking. Eggman doesn't need memory manipulation. He regularly steals living things to shove them into robots to power them. Ruins the environment and regularly summons gods with flagrant disregard for what they will do to people in attempts to take over the worlds(s). He pissed on the moon for god sakes, who even does that?! Seriously though this is a guy who under every opportunity under his own normally functioning non programmed mental faculties. Decides to inact plans to be a dictator  , the last game was literally him doing the thing he wanted and taking over the world so hard that it was a resistance scenario. Eggman does not care about your petty morality and is willing to murder, steal , enslave and often all three to get to his end goal. Eggman is a monster.

The thing is  you aren't supposed to think about eggman like that. Yes eggman can very easily be a hammer over the head representation of " dictators are bad, Pollution is bad , fight the power", however he's a very cartoonish representation of that. You aren't supposed to think of him think of him that seriously especially with his game interpretations. He's either cartoonishly evil in classic games whipping out death stars or giant robots with his visage. Or in the modern games a goofball who seems evil but doesn't really have the follow through or the ability to plan ahead to make those plans mean something. He is often outsmarted by his help, or summons or creations or what have you because its supposed to reinforce he's kind of a goofball. Eggman is the character you are supposed to take the LEAST seriously. Everytime eggman is on the screen you expect him to screw up and he often does. You are not supposed to actually think about his actions seriously because when you do , you go " this guy is a dictator " . Its a collective ludonarrative dissonance that we as an audience have decided to go with because we like the characters place in the narrative. Its like Team Rocket , they work for a mob/terrorist organization that steals pokemon and are willing to at least leave people in deadly situations whilst doing so if not try and kill them. But you don't think about that shit because its jessie and james. Prepare for trouble, and make it double. There are other more serious characters for that , they are goofballs that are occasionally a bit more serious when the story needs it and less so when it doesn't.

When sonic or the comic itself starts calling eggman's morality into question, it makes the reader and more so the series have to think about what eggman is. And that's a dictator. I'm not saying shadow is perfect either, he ain't. While yes I do think shadow wasn't under normal mental faculties in SA2, do I think he feels that bad for some of  it? Nope. The most casualties that happened were on a GUN base. He's probably more than fine with that innocents were deffo on that base. And while I think the true ending of shadow's game implied to true path, Shadow probably killed some gun soilders on the way to that true good ending, you think they stopped shooting at him when he showed his " I'm doing the good route card " nah he defended himself. Shadow is a guy in this scenario willing to kill for the greater good, while I like shadow I think in most cases that mentality kinda starts off on the negative end of the morality spectrum. He is by no means an angel. But to compare him to a dictator... no that's not it. That speaks ill of the person who makes that comparison. On many levels.

I don't think there is an inherent moral difference here. That's like saying I dunno eggman found a gun and decided to rob a store vs He made a gun and decided to rob a store. Yes one has a bit more agency in that the intent is there to learn how to make a gun, but he made an active decision to do so. One just requires a bit less work on his end. Work smart not hard.

I would say so, not just because of all the stuff I said.

But also , asshole thing to do. The suggestion is that shadow, when he was being abused and manipulated by his creator from beyond the grave is the same as a dictator. While again I don't think shadow feels that bad a gun base got blown up, he probably feels kinda shitty he almost did the one thing his best friend didn't want him to do because his creator abused him and messed with his head. And to use that as a moral comparison point on the part of sonic is fucking gross to be blunt. And speaks to how little of an argument those writing sonic actually had when this was made. Its like if during the argument that shadow and knuckles had whilst fighting in the archie comics, shadow instead of suggesting knuckles find a new path, said the emerald is why his family is dead and if he follows their path he will die too. While yes in both scenarios there might be a kernel of truth, like "If you play judge jury and executioner too much every problems looks like a guillotine" and maybe "blindy following traditions can lead to your own demise."  Both parties both in the real scenario and in the hypothetical one aren't doing the thing enough or aren't " fallen " enough to warrant that talk. Shadow wasn't some guy killing everyone he ran across if he did forces wouldn't have happened. He was a guy willing to do something that due to the comic now evoking canon with eggman's deeds is kinda justified in this willingness to do the thing.

So in this scenario it isn't sonic calling out some character flaw, its sonic being emotionally manipulative with a subjective sensitive to shadow in one of the worst ways possible. Sonic wasn't being sonic in that scene, he was scourge. He was a manipulative douche and it might have actually been better for him to bring up maria because at least that would have been an appeal to shadow's inherent sense of right and justice rather than comparing his issues with his " father " to that of a willing fascist. He doesn't want to wish harm on his worst enemies, but emotionally manipulating a guy who you consider a hero as well? That's above board?

I like Ian Flynn , I hope he writes TV and movies and shit some day. But IMO this was a bad call, and his continued desires to make eggman some super serious character that can be called into moral question continues to open up the dialog of " Why don't they kill the dictator" . When the characters a dictator that's kinda hard question to deny, but when its about a guy who's lost his memories? That's an easier moral ground to tread. And a more interesting one for this series.

See, this right here is why I can't take your stance seriously at all.  This paragraph here is way more gross than anything you're claiming Sonic has done in this issue, and requires the most disingenuous interpretation of the events to get this point across.  

Yes, I can say memory manipulation or not because as I said, Shadow still chose to carry out the "blow the world up" plan. He had no moral compunctions against it, he never stopped to think "Wow, this is a messed up plan. I can't do this" and his change of heart did not come from within himself as a character, but because of what someone else told him. Shadow himself even makes a point of telling Sonic in this very comic that having amnesia doesn't make a person any less dangerous, obviously alluding to himself. If Shadow himself can make that point, I don't get how you could miss that.

You've made it rather clear that you're a vocal critic on how this comic has treated Shadow in relation to Sonic, and I'm not going to dispute that. But I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I feel your interpretation of these events are intentionally in bad faith and require reading the worst possible case of the scenario to justify your point. That's the only way I can understand how you can interpret Sonic not wanting someone to be murdered in cold blood, and trying to talk down the person doing it who was in a similar circumstance as Sonic emotionally manipulating him and comparing him to his evil doppelganger who was an actual dictator.

 

[DabigRG]

While I'm interjecting with points of contention regarding Espio and Eggman, it's also worth noting that Sonic himself has shown minimal concern with potentially killing the Doctor while stopping his plans. He doesn't gun for him(er, that one line from Heroes aside) or see it as an ideal result to achieve, but he'll certainly bop his Eggmobile into a bottomless pit, destroy a giant Robot/Mech with him still in it(even stranding him in water/lava/space/rifts), or in the case of Lost World, remove the exhaust hose of his jetpack on a floating continent.

People forget that he's something of an antihero himself.

[thumbs13]

Nobody goes after Eggman. Aside from Shadow this once despite teaming up with him in the past. That's why it's so weird.

[DabigRG]

33 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Nobody goes after Eggman. Aside from Shadow this once despite teaming up with him in the past. That's why it's so weird.

Pretty much. Only Espio have been for outright killing him and he doesn't actually press the issue, much less find himself in a position to do so anyway.

Everyone else just stops his world domination plans(Sonic, Tails), fights him when he gets in the way(Amy, Chaotix, Blaze), tolerate him to help their own agenda(Shadow, Rouge, Zavok), or wish he'd not be a bad guy before having to punch him in the face(Knuckles, Cream, Big).

EDIT: Forgot about Omega.

[Shadowlax]

48 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

See, this right here is why I can't take your stance seriously at all.  This paragraph here is way more gross than anything you're claiming Sonic has done in this issue, and requires the most disingenuous interpretation of the events to get this point across.  

 

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Yes, I can say memory manipulation or not because as I said, Shadow still chose to carry out the "blow the world up" plan. He had no moral compunctions against it, he never stopped to think "Wow, this is a messed up plan. I can't do this" and his change of heart did not come from within himself as a character, but because of what someone else told him. Shadow himself even makes a point of telling Sonic in this very comic that having amnesia doesn't make a person any less dangerous, obviously alluding to himself. If Shadow himself can make that point, I don't get how you could miss that.

So here right. I want to make this very clear, i'm not making a moral judgement on your person. But this is my belief system, and in this scenario I think you have missed the point. Or rather have confused two different ones. So my belief is this and shadow's ENTIRE NARRATIVE is this. People are not born good or bad. Experiences make them good or bad. That's shadow's entire deal. Every single thing about his creation what happened to him , who's he's related to , why he exists should point him into being the bad guy. But hes not really. And in that scenario in SA2 , shadow had the experiences to make him good removed or altered to make him in a more violent malicious way. That's kinda the whole point of that narrative is that gerald was trying to define who he was, but the family he chose won out. He remembered, and those experiences are what inspire him to do good yeah someone " told him " your mom or dad, uncle whoever told you to not be a dick. But that experience problably helps you not be a dick and that doesn't invalidate your chose to do so because that wasn't an idea you had when you are born. You learn  and grow, that what' brings me to my other points you missed.

Part of the other part of the story is shadow has no context for what the earth is, who's on it why is it  a thing, not just because he had his memory manipulated is just a foreign thing. He doesn't have the memories telling him to go to and protect it , his a giant or rather 3 foot 3 ball of anger  who's memories are telling him to blow up the planet. With those that would get him to stop removed. Shadow's like a week old outside of the pod canonically. He is an experiment he knows very little and what he does know was manipulated so he only remembered "that's the place the bad people came from that took my sister away ".  Like to compare that to fully grown ass man who set out from jump " I'm gonna take over the world " is weird to me man.

Shadow wasn't born shadow, his experiences make him shadow. And those experiences were removed to make him carry out some shit he may not have agreed with otherwise.

To compare that to eggman , a guy who just actually decides to be a dictator on the reg. Who is like at least 50 years with experiences and choices made to make him who he was. Speaks more about sonic in this scenario than not. Whether it be lack of worldly understanding, fence sitting apathy  , or some form of active maliciousness. Its not a good look

If you think people are born a way morally, that's cool. Do you. But We have to at that point end this conversation because that in itself is a philosophical argument I do not think is fit for the thread.

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You've made it rather clear that you're a vocal critic on how this comic has treated Shadow in relation to Sonic, and I'm not going to dispute that. But I just fundamentally disagree with you on this because I feel your interpretation of these events are intentionally in bad faith and require reading the worst possible case of the scenario to justify your point. That's the only way I can understand how you can interpret Sonic not wanting someone to be murdered in cold blood, and trying to talk down the person doing it who was in a similar circumstance as Sonic emotionally manipulating him and comparing him to his evil doppelganger who was an actual dictator.

 

I'm not arguing in bad faith. My argument is that it shouldn't be argued in any faith. Eggman is a character who in no circumstances should be taken that seriously. And in evoking the narrative of whether he should die or not calls into questions his actions. When you look at his actions, he's a murderous dictator. Even though I think the premise is flawed, if sonic would have kept it to memory stuff. He could be talking down shadow. As soon as he started making arguments about " He helps " then sonic is trying to justify his actions. Sonic's argument should have never been trying to justify eggman's previous actions more so what new experiences could make eggman or tinker at the time a better person in future. His arguments were " Those things in the past were bad but sometimes he helps so that makes it cool " and then its " Well you did a bad thing once, aren't you as bad as he is " and if this was a normal person or even another shadow, sure. When its a dictator that gives this entire conversation a different context it wasn't ever meant to have.

I think you may have misinterpreted the source of my disdain on this and to be fair to you and other's in this thread, my conduct has been shadow focused to say the least. I think that's fair to say, heck it started this conversation. But my biggest issue with that issue, isn't shadow's lack of agency or him being written like a plot device. I got issues with that, I do , but they aren't my biggest ones. Its sonic. One sonic should never be having to argue this in the first place. But two, sonic should never been trying to brush away the things eggman has done. Sonic comes off in this book like a manipulative douche , and a guy who "both sided" a dictator.

I don't think i'm arguing in bad faith, i'm kind of just reading the book. Even if you want to read sonic's actions in the best light possible, he's still being a manipulative jerk. He is still bothsiding a dictator . He's doing it for a reason that's naive and stupid what he thinks is good. That's the best read. That's my read. But even in that, its still not good look.

Like how else do you read that? After the story envokes eggman's past which paints him as a dictator. Sonic then trying to justify his action and then compares shadow to eggman? How else do you read that?

That's why you don't write that story, because there's no other way to read that. Its weird an inappropriate among many other things,

[thumbs13]

5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much. Only Espio have been for outright killing him and he doesn't actually press the issue, much less find himself in a position to do so anyway.

 

You mean Omega? Yeah, even he was fine with letting Eggman go in Heroes and 06.

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

You mean Omega? Yeah, even he was fine with letting Eggman go in Heroes and 06.

Oh shit, I forgot about Omega!  Man, how did I fuck that up?

I mean, his motivation is basically wounded pride and destruction is what he's built for, but yeah. I honestly don't know what to even say about him beyond Eggman himself being luckily overlooked due to bigger threats or Omega literally only wanting to prove himself.

[Almar]

Honestly, I think it's kinda silly to try to reconcile the "Saturday Morning Cartoon" Eggman and the "Dictator" Robotnik as seen in the Western spins. Yeah, even in the Adventure games we saw he was fine with mass death of humans but we never actually saw him get that far and he was banished from the plot by getting blasted away by Chaos. It's okay for Sonic to not be proactive about making sure he doesn't kill anybody since it's just that kind of world.

Also, I'm thinking that part of what led to the games having characters like Chaos or Erazor Djinn is that they can commit on-screen massacres and be either killed outright or at least dealt with in a more permanent way than what happens to Eggman.

2nding the call for finally moving on from Forces.

[DabigRG]

22 minutes ago, Almar said:

Honestly, I think it's kinda silly to try to reconcile the "Saturday Morning Cartoon" Eggman and the "Dictator" Robotnik as seen in the Western spins. Yeah, even in the Adventure games we saw he was fine with mass death of humans but we never actually saw him get that far and he was banished from the plot by getting blasted away by Chaos. It's okay for Sonic to not be proactive about making sure he doesn't kill anybody since it's just that kind of world.

That very much is the thing, isn't it?

The Adventures is both a case of the magic trick the comics tend to break and Early Installment Weirdness. The latter because he is portrayed as a lot more menacing, destructive, and even a little psychotic than he is anywhere else in the games(until Forces & to an extent Colors anyway). Yet the former kicks in in that its just a part of the tonal stakes that until Tails story can be summed up as somewhere between "I'm gonna tear down the neighborhood and build a strip mall with a statue of myself" and "look at my battleship make things go boom."

People getting killed isn't the goal or focus compared to the action-based spectacle of the city itself being paved over--until he, again, calls in a missile strike, goes to detonate it by hand, and then declares he's gonna take his seething anger out of the people. 

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Also, I'm thinking that part of what led to the games having characters like Chaos or Erazor Djinn is that they can commit on-screen massacres and be either killed outright or at least dealt with in a more permanent way than what happens to Eggman.

2nding the call for finally moving on from Forces.

Pretty much.

That and they wanted to tell more ambitious, complicated, and intense stories than the Classic Games were able to. And since the villain often makes the plot, most of the Dreamcast and early Modern era relied on other villains with dark mysteries and fearsome presences to carry that. Chaos is an oddball of a middleground on that, but the point still stood with Rouge and the Babylon Rogues being the exceptions for the most part.

Eggman himself was almost always involved, but never the big worldending threat in the end.

[thumbs13]

Just read the full issue online.

 

Spoiler

 It was good. The D6 were cool, Eggman put Starline in his place, and we finally got a conclusion to Silver. But here's my problem.

Big got infected offscreen. It's no secret that he's my fave character, so seeing him be an afterthought like this is bad, and waiting 25 issues and two years to see my favorite character and it's not even him is bad. I might be overreacting, but whi knows. 

 

[Zaysho]

8 hours ago, StaticMania said:

I wouldn't compare Shadow to that...because outside of the stupidity in hindsight, it would imply that Shadow's random ego and boasting was at all justified for any reason.

 

It... doesn't? I'm comparing Vegeta stroking himself throughout most of that storyline and constantly having the pecking order beat back into him (in particular where he let Cell power up) to Shadow acting tough and screeching about how he doesn't run and continuing to touch things that infect organic life that turns him into a zombie too.

I'm not understanding what you're talking about.

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

It... doesn't? I'm comparing Vegeta stroking himself throughout most of that storyline and constantly having the pecking order beat back into him (in particular where he let Cell power up) to Shadow acting tough and screeching about how he doesn't run and continuing to touch things that infect organic life that turns him into a zombie too.

I'm not understanding what you're talking about.

Vegeta doing that at least made sense, he just turned Super Saiyan and was (at the time) the strongest one of the heroes. It's also consistent characterization...kinda.

Shadow doing that wasn't justified, his attitude towards Sonic is one thing...but there's not enough of him throughout the comic where the way he acts and ends up getting infected makes any sense. Or...at least makes enough sense to be satisfying.

This isn't quite comparable, I think.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Vegeta doing that at least made sense, he just turned Super Saiyan and was (at the time) the strongest one of the heroes. It's also consistent characterization...kinda.

Shadow doing that wasn't justified, his attitude towards Sonic is one thing...but there's not enough of him throughout the comic where the way he acts and ends up getting infected makes any sense. Or...at least makes enough sense to be satisfying.

This isn't quite comparable, I think.

I was drawing comparisons between their actions and calling them stupid because that was the first analogy I could think of. I don't really care about the nit-picky aspects in this case because that wasn't my point. It's a broad strokes comparison of two characters, one of which is almost transparently modeled after the other in this continuity, making decisions out of pride and having bad things happen to them immediately after. And that's not even to say that's a unique flaw to Vegeta, it's just what I jumped to as a reference.

 

If it's a bad comparison and doesn't hold up, fair enough. I'm still going to say IDW Shadow was fucking stupid for how he got turned, though.

 

EDIT: Since I'm scrolling the rest of this thread against my better judgment I'm saying this here

  

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not arguing in bad faith. My argument is that it shouldn't be argued in any faith.

 

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think i'm arguing in bad faith, i'm kind of just reading the book. Even if you want to read sonic's actions in the best light possible, he's still being a manipulative jerk. He is still bothsiding a dictator . He's doing it for a reason that's naive and stupid what he thinks is good. That's the best read. That's my read. But even in that, its still not good look.

Aaaaand this is why people say you argue in bad faith, and this is why I constantly point out you are forcing your tortured readings into discussion and treating them as the only valid thing.

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Like how else do you read that? After the story envokes eggman's past which paints him as a dictator. Sonic then trying to justify his action and then compares shadow to eggman? How else do you read that?

We didn't read the same comic book.

Sonic defended Eggman because of Eggman's amnesia. While Shadow argues that doesn't make him less of a threat (fair enough), Sonic used the amnesia as a point that maybe Eggman could start over. If Eggman can't be given a chance when he was in a position where he was no longer a bad person, then Shadow shouldn't either. And you know why Sonic did that? Because he had no reason to believe a fucking lunatic was going to crawl out of the woodwork and try to restore Eggman's memory. You making this out to be something worse is really tiring and it makes talking about a character--my favorite character at that--a chore and something I simply don't enjoy doing on this forum anymore and I really wish you would understand what people are saying.

[caitash]

There’s a typo in this issue I think

Cream said she wants to see Cream again, I think she was supposed to say she wants to see Cheese again?

 

Also, generally:

Good issue, looks like things are exploding towards a longer climax over the next 5 or so issues than the conclusion of the first arc. And hopefully only 3 weeks to wait for the next issue, assuming no further delays.....

[Kazhnuz]

That's was really cool.

Spoiler

We really are getting the IDW version of the Genesis Wave, aren't we ?

 

I especially liked how Flynn showed the D6 as a legitimate threat while using stuff that where in lost world, just by varying what was shown here. I'll be dumb : i didn't see coming that they would use the Chaos Emerald for themselves xD I just didn't thought of that.

Everything around Eggman was pretty interesting. The stance about why Cream agree with the plan (that saving people is more important) and stop Whisper. The whole "Orbot and Rouge cooperating together" is really cool (especially as it makes). I really like how the comic manage to make Orbot kinda usefull (more than in the ArchieSonic era, for me, even if I miss the Egg Bosses). And I like how they handled is "not caring" personna. I also liked his whole dispute with Starline. That Eggman is accepting that "it's over, we loose, let's save ourselves", while Starline is persuaded that he can still win. And I hope that Starline being sent into his own portal is the begginning of his next arcs. I think that all this can have great potential for future arcs.

That's a bit sad that Infinite seems to be off limit, because we could have had Infinite, Rough+Thumble and Starline as "ennemies that have worked for Eggman and that Eggman kinda betrayed" (For Infinite it's how he didn't seem to care about Infinite's fate in the end of the story).

I'm pretty interested about the final stand against the D6, to see how it'll be.

 

The "are we okay about that ?" moment made me laugh xD It was simple yet pretty funny to me. The few of Omega we got was really fun too.

 

Just one funny thing

Spoiler

At first I didn't read correctly "Please don't, Miss Whisper" and read "Please don't miss, Whisper", and I was "wut ?".

 

[Kuzu]

Feels like forever since the last issue hasn't it. 

Spoiler

Ok, so while I didn't mind this issue overall, I do think it falls kind of flat on what's supposed to be the series` first milestone. Now I know that's not really a fair comparison given the previous comics' first milestones weren't exactly notable either. But they were at least self-contained stories and not part of a larger arc like this one is. 

 

So the issue starts with the restoration landing on Angel Island and once again, has a huge tease of Sonic going full zombot before it cuts to Eggman's faceship. I really wish they'd stop teasing this so much at this point, because it's kind of obnoxious now. Either turn Sonic or just cure him already, because this constant bait and switch they've been doing ends up not having any real impact.

On Eggman's ship, the inevitable happens and the Zeti turn the tables and force Eggman and Starlene to retreat. I find this sequence kind of weird since I was under the impression that the Zeti had some sort of plan to overcome the Conch, but no they just...take it. I know the point is to show that Starlene is similarly as shortsighted as Eggman, but I feel it's kind of contrived.

And the Zeti...just carry on Eggman's plan. I have very mixed feelings about this, because it's a similar problem I had with the Zeti in Lost World; one, they just kind of crib of off Eggman's plan...again. It doesn't really help set themselves apart from him at all. And secondly, their motivations are still as generic as ever. I'll applaud the art for making them look good, but hopefully later issues can do a better job at fleshing them out more.  Oh and Rouge is there too I guess...how long was she there for? She couldn't have stolen the emeralds at any time ? Eggman said that she could. Guess that's not important.

So Eggman and Starlene end up on Angel Island and are obviously not met with the warmest of welcomes. I feel everyone is being...a bit too lenient with Eggman given everything that's happened, I get that he's beneficial in helping to restore the virus but everyone just kind of...rolls with his presence. Whisper is the only who has the completely justified reaction to just try and shoot the guy before being talked out of it. I want to stress that in a vacuum, this scene here between Whisper and Cream (and Omega I guess) is good as well as Silver's feelings of failure...but as I've pointed out constantly, the lack of buildup and proper development just makes the entire thing feel more melodramatic than anything. I get what these scenes are trying to go for, I really do, but that's exactly why I'm stressing how proper buildup is needed to make these scenes hit like they're supposed to.

So everyone is trying to come up with a plan of counterattack. I actually like this scene, reminds me of those strategy scenes from the older games. So naturally, I had to play this over it in my head. I was kind of surprised to see them shoot down using Super Sonic as an option as I was sure that's what was going to solve everything in this arc, so I'm curious on how the Warp Topaz are going to be used. Starlene is naturally reluctant to this strategy, but as Eggman says, he has no say in the matter as is swiftly robbed of his tech and dumped right out of the plot. I...don't like this, Starlene was one of the few characters who had any kind of buildup and dynamism in this arc, so it's disappointing to see him just unceremoniously removed like this and everyone is just...fine with it. Think it would have been much more interesting to see him reluctantly go along with the plan, but I'm sure it's not the last we'll see of him. On a side note, Metal Sonic looked extremely cool here with his swift takedown of Starlene. 

So the plan is set and Amy decides to call for backup in...the Babylon Rogues. I mean, sure alright. It's nice to see them in some type of prominent role given the games aren't going to do anything with them. Pretty convenient how Amy has them on speed dial though. They're just kind of here to fill numbers it looks like though, and this arc is already pretty bloated to begin on the character count, we literally just had 9 new characters added to what's supposed to be the climax of this arc. Sonic and Jet's banter was pretty nice at least. 

And the issue ends with our new antagonists...doing evil things...yup. Yea, this didn't do anything for me and is more generic evil stuff that we've seen the Zeti do before that wasn't particularly interesting. The ending shot of all the zombified characters was pretty cool though.

 

 

So yea this was uh....alright I guess. The writing has the same issues it's always had; as a light Sonic affair, it's serviceable enough on its own and the art is as nice as ever, with some great character dialogue. But I still don't really care about this conflict due to the lack of development on the characters or setting, and the Zeti aren't really any more interesting here than they were in Lost World. Starlene, one of the few characters I did care about, has been removed from the plot and now we have three more characters added to the Heroes side because we needed more padding  I guess?

 

TL;Dr summary

+ Great art from ABT as usual.

+ Fun character interactions

- The cast and setting still aren't fleshed out much, which makes it hard to invest in the conflict.

- Adding more characters to the conflict in the arc's climax, and removing one of the few interesting ones. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

My biggest problem with the issue was

Spoiler

Eggman dashing Metal Sonic into the Zeti. I thought they were going to reveal Eggman had managed to find a way to make Metal resistant to the Zeti’s control over robotics, but nope. He just sends Metal Sonic, his deadliest robotic enforcer...directly towards the Deadly Six, who swiftly take control of him and use him to nearly kill Eggman and force him to leave.

Like, I know Eggman is shortsighted and doesn’t think things through, but he’s still a genius. He wouldn’t be so stupid to do something as this.

It really felt like just a contrived way of establishing and confirming that the Zeti are capable of controlling robots when Ian just as easily could’ve just had Metal Sonic happen to be in the same room as Eggman, and he gets controlled before Eggman can send him off.

 

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, Zaysho said:

 

Aaaaand this is why people say you argue in bad faith, and this is why I constantly point out you are forcing your tortured readings into discussion and treating them as the only valid thing.

We didn't read the same comic book.

Sonic defended Eggman because of Eggman's amnesia. While Shadow argues that doesn't make him less of a threat (fair enough), Sonic used the amnesia as a point that maybe Eggman could start over. If Eggman can't be given a chance when he was in a position where he was no longer a bad person, then Shadow shouldn't either. And you know why Sonic did that? Because he had no reason to believe a fucking lunatic was going to crawl out of the woodwork and try to restore Eggman's memory. You making this out to be something worse is really tiring and it makes talking about a character--my favorite character at that--a chore and something I simply don't enjoy doing on this forum anymore and I really wish you would understand what people are saying.

Spoiler

 

I think that's a shitty thing to say regardless? I don't think saying the shitty thing with the shitty reasoning is valid because you didn't think a literal zombie apocalypse would occur. Its shitty thing to say regardless and I think its way out of character for sonic to say that. And the fact that all that bad stuff happen makes it worse and even worse than that I don't think that's ever going to be addressed. If you think that's like cool, cool. I'm not really making any moral judgements here. Maybe you think that situation required that type of argument, I disagree. But I just think " He didn't know " implies that argument is sort of the default argument and I think that's shitty default for sonic the hedgehog of all people.

I don't think painting this as " tortured " is fair either because its a common criticism that the story itself is weird because eggman will never be punished for his actions. Saying I have tortured reads implies that I want to read it this way? I don't. I Think the story as it stands shouldn't have happened. I think bringing eggman's actions in to the spotlight kinda ruins that character. I have said this before, I have said this in this argument. When you think about eggman's actions over the course of his career and even as recently as the last game the book is based on, he's a murderous dictator. He takes over the world takes out people who are in his way enslaves small animals and puts them into robots. Sonic in this book makes moral equivalence arguments defending eggman with his entire past in context due to the tone that they set at the beginning of the book. Whether sonic knew the world would literally end or not is irrelevant. What he did  was morally equivocate the occasional good eggman deed to save his own ass and shadow's manipulation with all of eggman's actions whilst being well... a murderous dictator. And that's a weird bad thing to do.

To suggest that i'm forcing some tortured view suggests that I want this. I hate everything I just said. Almost every goddamned word, I hate the argument i have to have, because I don't think this should be happening. I think the entire premise of this store is inherently flawed, because I feel like on sonic's end of this he has to effectively show his entire ass to moralize eggman in some way. And at least I think i understand why Ian may have wanted to do that, to show the moral differences between the two. If you keep it purely memory shadow kind of has no argument there besides hipocracy. Making it about what value eggman brings and who get decide who lives creates a moral decide between the two. The issue is eggman is one of the most popular villians in popular modern fiction, so capitalism dictates he will be back to being that. And that consists of kind of being a dictator.The former making the argument irrelevant and the latter coloring the character in questions actions.

But I'm willing to just end it here. But I got a question. Because I just need to know your stance on this because depending on your answer this is just a fundamental disagreement and i'll just bounce on this.

Do you , or anyone willing to answer this question find it weird at all. That sonic, the guy who loves freedom, the guy who's whole vibe is live free.The guy who fights for others to be free and to keep them safe. The guy who was apart of a group called the " freedom fighters " , the guy who headed in the lead up to this story, headed up a rebellion against a literal dictator. Who has fought overbearing government entities like gun. That guy, that guy.

Do you think its weird that , this guy in an argument that could have been easily one making the argument that to kill mr. Tinker in this moment was to deny his freedom of choice, made the argument of " We'll he's a dictator, but sometimes he helps " and " You did a bad thing, why are you angry at this dictator you are just as bad " .

I think that's weird man. But if you don't, that's cool. Ain't really nothing else to talk about.

 

 

 

The new comic was eh

 

 

[Kuzu]

14 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

My biggest problem with the issue was

  Hide contents

Eggman dashing Metal Sonic into the Zeti. I thought they were going to reveal Eggman had managed to find a way to make Metal resistant to the Zeti’s control over robotics, but nope. He just sends Metal Sonic, his deadliest robotic enforcer...directly towards the Deadly Six, who swiftly take control of him and use him to nearly kill Eggman and force him to leave.

Like, I know Eggman is shortsighted and doesn’t think things through, but he’s still a genius. He wouldn’t be so stupid to do something as this.

It really felt like just a contrived way of establishing and confirming that the Zeti are capable of controlling robots when Ian just as easily could’ve just had Metal Sonic happen to be in the same room as Eggman, and he gets controlled before Eggman can send him off.

 

That's a good point actually that I overlooked. It really does feel like that scene was only there to establish that particular power and nothing more, especially since it's rendered moot in the following scene.

It's rather quick and doesn't overstay its welcome so it's not too egregious 

 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Also...

Spoiler

While it was a cool as hell shot, am I the only one who found it a little weird how Zavok knew which zombots specifically to control to use against Sonic? I mean, you could probably fart out a few excuses for Shadow, but Vanilla and the Chao, and Big?

Y’see, it would’ve made sense if Eggman had been the one to set that situation up to mess with Sonic and the few survivors remaining, but how the hell did Zavok know which characters to specifically set up against the group? Hell, he had to know in advance since while a large bulk would’ve turned inside Resistance HQ, Tangle would’ve specifically had to have been moved.

Also, Tangle is in the same stance as she was when she turned, before drooping into just another zombot. Nothing wrong with that, just a fun fact.

 

[DabigRG]

Gotta say, as predictable as it is, Zomom makes for a somewhat scary Oolong/Zoloma-type; Zeena seems to have a cruel goddess complex, which is actually kind of a fitting upgrade. Didn't notice the Emerald on Zazz before, btw.

Is there a major pig character or something that I'm forgetting?

.

19 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

Beware big spoilers

Why does that rabbit lady have spikes in her head?