Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[King Scoopa Koopa]

It's just hard to tell how much is Ian and how much is other factors. And then you have people who think writers have carte blanche to do whatever they want without any oversight.

Maybe that was once true, CCA notwithstanding, but even in recent years, you get stuff like One More Day at Marvel, which I'll bet was far more editorially-driven than the stuff Stan Lee wrote back in the day.

And that's without bringing license holders into it.

I'm not arguing that Ian is a perfect writer or that editors/companies ruin everything they can, just that there are a lot of pieces we can't see moving behind the scenes, and while they need to move together harmoniously, they don't always.

It's just something to keep in mind, especially while we're going on elsewhere about how characters like Amy or Tails or Knuckles get portrayed in the games (and sometimes I wonder if Sonic Team has to face similar issues from higher-ups at SEGA).

[Red Hot Jack]

 

If this is true it would reinforce my idea that they are cooking up a new cartoon led by Ian and Tyson, with these gals included.

[Betz]

2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

If this is true it would reinforce my idea that they are cooking up a new cartoon led by Ian and Tyson, with these gals included.

None of this screams "new cartoon". If anything, this implies that the comics are considered canon now, which intrigues me as if that is the case, the new Sonic games would therefore be created with the comic continuity in mind, which would mean the next title would take place in a post-metal virus Sonic's World which I think is an awesome setting.

[Tracker_TD]

I don't think it necessarily means anything in regards to canon; Movie Sonic and Longclaw showed up, but nobody's calling those canon to Modern Sonic. It's just a bit of cross-promo.

Saying that, I'd love to be wrong! I think Tangle and Whisper are really great, and I'm glad they're showing up in at least some kind of game setting. 

[SBR2]

3 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

If this is true it would reinforce my idea that they are cooking up a new cartoon led by Ian and Tyson, with these gals included.

Why would this mean that? I mean don't get me wrong I'd love it but this no different than Longclaw being in the game.

But anyway if it's true I'm excited. I'm glad that Sega is showing so much love to the comic.

[VO.SUPER]

Man, imagine if Archie Sonic had more of a worldwide focus, maybe they could have had more crossover with SEGA. I bet you this current decision is influenced by the fact the comics are now coming to Japan and will be more relevant to the Japanese crowd.

Oh well, Ian must be happy with this news. Actually being acknowledged by Japan is one thing, but to have your character show up in a game is unreal. Let's see if we can get a main game next time.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

14 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Man, imagine if Archie Sonic had more of a worldwide focus, maybe they could have had more crossover with SEGA. I bet you this current decision is influenced by the fact the comics are now coming to Japan and will be more relevant to the Japanese crowd.

If Archie were actually enthusiastic about Sonic enough to market it more than they did and not botch their handling of the license, they probably would’ve. 

The saving grace at least is that Sega owns everything Post-Reboot. So there’s always that chance they give characters the revival like the Chaotix or Mighty and Ray. Of course, those took years to even decades to make a comeback, and Sega tend to be haphazard, so no guarantees.

[VO.SUPER]

13 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

If Archie were actually enthusiastic about Sonic enough to market it more than they did and not botch their handling of the license, they probably would’ve. 

The saving grace at least is that Sega owns everything Post-Reboot. So there’s always that chance they give characters the revival like the Chaotix or Mighty and Ray. Of course, those took years to even decades to make a comeback, and Sega tend to be haphazard, so no guarantees.

Nevermind how they botched the license, just the fact they never even released their comic in multiple languages until the turn of the previous decade is silly and even then to a limited set of languages.

Sega of America were on good enough terms with the comics to put their covers in their collections during the early 2000s, and use them as influence for Sonic Chronicles so clearly there was a level of familiarity and interest in them at least to the american fanbase. But they never showed up anywhere else, which to be fair is because they were probably never expecting to make it past the first half of the 90s, still it was on Archie to actually expand their longest running license. But whatever, at least now the comics are getting recognition which is definitely a huge improvement, and with the same staff on duty.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

9 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

If this is true it would reinforce my idea that they are cooking up a new cartoon led by Ian and Tyson, with these gals included.

First the movie and now IDW. I like it. It's a Intercanon Crossover!

[Kuzu]

Man, how pissed off would people be if they actually get into a game. 

[Your Vest Friend]

Well that would be terrible...for the comic.

Currently Tangle and Whisper seem to be the main outlets for some of the stuff that's not allowed for the game characters. If they made the jump into the games (that isn't a mobile game for cross-promotion), that would probably curtail any plans Ian had for them and have a knock on the comic narrative. Again.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Man, how pissed off would people be if they actually get into a game. 

Like a new console/pc game? Some Sega purists and some bitter Oldschool Archie/SatAM fans would be beyond pissed for sure.

[GentlemanX]

Ian has stated Sega has been a lot more hands on with the original characters in IDW than they ever were with Archie. I honestly could see IDW's cast being similar to the situation with Sticks where Sega sees them as characters they created.

As many fans as the Freedom Fighters had and specifically as popular as Sally and Scourge got, there was probably always this disconnect Sega had with characters they had little hand in creating. There is probably a level of bias there.

[Shadowlax]

10 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Ian has stated Sega has been a lot more hands on with the original characters in IDW than they ever were with Archie. I honestly could see IDW's cast being similar to the situation with Sticks where Sega sees them as characters they created.

As many fans as the Freedom Fighters had and specifically as popular as Sally and Scourge got, there was probably always this disconnect Sega had with characters they had little hand in creating. There is probably a level of bias there.

This + the comics may have been too different from what they thought sonic was at the time or even now. Where as this book is kinda what they see sonic as, they have been dictating the whole thing. It doesnt promise that the characters will be around long, look at sticks. But its easier to promote and rip from

[VO.SUPER]

22 minutes ago, GentlemanX said:

Ian has stated Sega has been a lot more hands on with the original characters in IDW than they ever were with Archie. I honestly could see IDW's cast being similar to the situation with Sticks where Sega sees them as characters they created.

As many fans as the Freedom Fighters had and specifically as popular as Sally and Scourge got, there was probably always this disconnect Sega had with characters they had little hand in creating. There is probably a level of bias there.

It's the same logic that drives why Miyamoto's teams at Nintendo don't use Wario and Waluigi in their Mario platformers. They were made by specific teams for their specific takes on the Mario franchise. Even something as close as a seperate division can drive this wedge in what game makers want to do with their property.

In this case, the Freedom Fighters were made for Sega of America's needs not for Sega of Japan, and for the longest time SoJ went out of their way to scrub most of SoA's contributions to the series out. That also largely goes for the comics continuity which had long stayed outside of modern Sega's direct contribution and still held onto things they were reluctant to give a chance.

[KoDaiko]

I know Whisper was based on the avatar creator in Forces, but it throws me off everytime I see her missing eyelids (and the position).

I got used to it in 2D art, hopefully I can get used to 3D.

[PublicEnemy1]

I wonder if this was the big "#KnowingSmile" Ian was talking about.

[SBR2]

47 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

I wonder if this was the big "#KnowingSmile" Ian was talking about.

He did say July. I don't know a lot about Dash are there like Cutscenes or dialogue boxes or anything like that? 

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

It's the same logic that drives why Miyamoto's teams at Nintendo don't use Wario and Waluigi in their Mario platformers. They were made by specific teams for their specific takes on the Mario franchise. Even something as close as a seperate division can drive this wedge in what game makers want to do with their property.

In this case, the Freedom Fighters were made for Sega of America's needs not for Sega of Japan, and for the longest time SoJ went out of their way to scrub most of SoA's contributions to the series out. That also largely goes for the comics continuity which had long stayed outside of modern Sega's direct contribution and still held onto things they were reluctant to give a chance.

Or why Wario ware characters don't show up in the mario crossover games. Which, they should

5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Man, how pissed off would people be if they actually get into a game. 

A general fan problably not at all like myself. I want focus to be the game created characters and I fear for them because sega can't interpret characters for shit these days. But generally I like them...and like every idw original character. Hope they all show up.

Now if were say an archie devotee and this occurred. This in combination with Ian's statements with how involved sega is with the comic may feel like the final nail in the coffin. Signifying that sega does not give a fuck if they didn't have a hand in it and contradicts what they want to do with the franchise. Thr reverence you had for these characters shown moot under the designer shoe of capitalism and sonic teams artistic direction.And if I were that person. I might be a smidge peeved.

 

 

[Silvereyes]

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

 Hm...that could've been interesting. It would solidify Zik's experience and cunning compared to the other Zeti and create secondary fight out of an extended one to give the less prominent heroes something else to do.

Honestly, I chose that fight purely because I think there would be alot more backlash if any of the other characters lost outright. In my hypothetical, it would be rewritten in a way that still has Jet choose to die with his teammates that be a coward.

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

Really now? I actually kinda had the read that she almost had no note since she and to a different level Zavok weren't very easy to pinpoint, collectively speaking. But you're right, as the hint of inconsistency regarding what she was supposed to be across Lost World and it's marketing kinda shows.

Well, I havn't played Lost World, or even remember any of its marketing. I keep forgetting it's a main line Sonic game even, I can't help but think of it as a spin-off title. I have seen RadicalSoda's review of Lost World and I know he was critical, with Zeena being very much "the girl" of the Deadly 6, with a very stereotypical personality.

I think though that with good writing, her personality can be very entertaining, especially when paired up with her opposite. One little element I love about the Cream vs Zeena fight is this panel:

I think it speaks volumes about Zeena that she thinks Cream is a nice selfless girl just so she can feel morally superior. It probably doesn't occur to Zeena that people can be nice just for the sake of it, that there must be an ulterior motive. Zeena is a stereotype, but I think unlike half the Deadly Six, one that can be utilised very well with good writing.

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

And yes, she really does have a good design.

 

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

Of course, part of me kinda sees that as something of an inevitability: villains often have designs that are more jagged, sinister, or otherwise unconventional compared to the other characters in series like these.

I mean, for Zeena, I think it is obvious that she is meant to be an attractive woman. She's got the body proportions, the long hair, her foot claws effectively serve as high heels. Even her top half looks almost like a green jumper covering a bust, and her lower half look like black leggings, even though she is naked like all the other Deadly 6. I think the key difference with Zeena is, she is a woman, with monster details laid on top, while the other Zeti look like they were designed from the ground up to be monsters, and have far more exagerated proportions.

You are right at the end of the day. I think part of it is the colouring scheme, it seems completely different from how other Sonic characters are coloured. I think proportions come in again, the fact that the Zeti aren't based on real life animals. Lost World had its art style, and I just don't think it gels with the art style of the usual Sonicverse. That, and well, like I said, I think Zomom and Zor are just ugly, and I mean that in the most basic way possible. But you know, I know nothing about art design.

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

Oh? What is it about Zavok in particular?

I mean, from what I know, Zavok just seems like a very generic villian, who wants to rule the world while bossing around his team. Unless there is something I don't know, there is nothing about Zavok that is remotely interesting.

 

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

As for why Zavok in particular keeps showing up, it's quite simply: the Deadly Six are collectively a recurring group of villains, he's the leader of the band, and most of the games since their debut being spinoffs, crossovers, and Forces all mean it's easier to just use him to fill a place in their limited rosters.

Well, yes, you are right. It's just more a comment about how Sega can seemingly be very arbituary about what characters they want and what characters they basically exile. Infinite seems to of been banished from existence for the time being due to Forces not being received well, but despite Lost World not being a huge success, and I've yet to see anyone be more than lukewarm about any of the Zeti, Sega seems to want to keep Zavok around. I think it says alot Zavok got the third spot in the villian's team in Team Sonic Racing, I do not believe that would of happened if someone at Sega didn't like him.

On 6/27/2020 at 12:25 AM, DabigRG said:

You sure the incredible slow mo lag has nothing to due with it, btw?

Yeah, I know the PC port of Lost World is meant to be pretty half assed. (Surprised Sega bothered really, especially when alot of Sonic games havn't been ported, like Unleashed and Colours.) I guess it's just the fact I bought it on sale, I know it isn't very good, and honestly, it's not a concept I think looks good. I just bought because I am a Sonic fan. Same with Forces actually, own that too, yet to touch it, despite it being very short.

I should get around to it, just for the sake of completion.

[Silvereyes]

If that news about Sonic Dash is true, that sounds pretty great. Arguably, Archie Sonic always had so much baggage behind it late into its run for such crossovers to happen, but IDW is so new, with Sega's involvement. First Sonic Dash, then who knows what else? If there is a Winter Olympics game, that would come out in a year and a half, that could be the next stepping stone from Sonic Dash.

[DabigRG]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:08 AM, prowerboy26 said:

I think part of the issue with pacing also has to do with the short page limit for the comics which have been shortened over time. It feels sometimes like Ian has no other option but to rush in order to squeeze everything he wants in the issue and advance tell the story.

Have you noticed we are making critiques that the comic is both too rushed in certain issues but the arcs are drawn out too long?  I feel like if the comic had more pages per issue the pacing would be better to tell a grand story. Otherwise the length almost forces the comic to take an episodic approach where it is hard to have the plot and action in good balance in the same issue. 

Don't get me wrong, I like the comic a good bit! However, the pacing is my main flaw, as with Scattered Worlds. The issues go by so fast that we can't appreciate the characters and their accomplishments because we have to jump somewhere else to complete another plot point.

That is definitely a constant make or break when it comes to this medium.

He and Aleah both have commented on how disorientating it can be to have a story that requires like 24 pages when you only have 22 or if you were working under a certain number only for news that an extra ad was thrown in when you've already sent the final script.

Ultimately, you have to work around a limit and hope things are relatively manageable.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:07 AM, Jack at Home said:

I repeat, too many members of the Deadly Six, short time, how would you have handled it? Personally, probably make the arc longer, but that again, would have made fans bitter that it was dragging and going slow. It's an impossible situation, of course there are issues, I do think mostly it was issue 26 that tried to introduce all the fights... no way, just have 2 fights in 26, 2 in 27 and 1 (Zazz) in 28 plus the final battle set up in 29 with Zavok. Would have worked better, imo, that issue tried to do everything but it was just an introduction and messed up every following issue, besides the next one.

Yeah, admittedly that would've worked to expectations/format with the number of Zeti. And any extra space can easily be allocated to character moments or cutaways that advance the plot.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:07 AM, Jack at Home said:

One more thing: I would have made the Zeti co-operate in 2, like Zomom and Zeena together, Zazz and Zor together, at least, it would have created fun dynamics between them.

I think I brought this up already, both in my predictions for this finale and in another reply, but it's worth asking: isn't it a bit weird how, despite the explicit danger of one Zeti alerting another being the reason the heroes warp simultaneously, that never once occurs to any of them?

Heck, the main cover for 27 compared to the others even made it appear that that's what would happen.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:07 AM, Jack at Home said:

Big's Adventure sounds fantastic, it's an opportunity to revisit the first issues, the callbacks. Plus, Vista View is actually the town from issue 1, and Riverside is the village from issue 2, cool! Plus of course, it's a very nice callback to the Big cameos in SA2 and Secret Rings. What are the other stories supposed to be again? I think one is about Metal Sonic?

I completely forgot about that Metal Sonic cover. 

It's been a long while, but wasn't there something about the Virus having a potential effect on robots without necessarily infecting the?

On 6/26/2020 at 6:07 AM, Jack at Home said:

I'm gonna enjoy the final fight next issue, although I feel like the epilogue stuff is kinda unnecessary, yeah, I wanted them to move on to the next mini arcs. But it doesn't make me enjoy the book less, it's really refreshing and fun. 

To be fair, they kinda need the characters to wind down a bit from something like this and there's also whatever's happening with Sonic & Omega going on concurrently.

On 6/26/2020 at 7:52 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

The simplest way out would be if Flynn just stops being so rigid and broke formula.

Say Megaman 3 in Archie: he did two 4-parters, one for Robot Master, the other for rest. How about instead Megaman beats only 4 robot masters and "final boss" of the chapter is Proto Man. Then he goes after Wily properly, with 4 Robot Masters in actual castle.
It's less true to the games, but more paced like actual story would do it, Proto Man fight has more weight and first 4 parter feels less like filler.

 

Of course this time there was no need for this. 5 Zeti to beat in 3 issues, last issue for Zavok conclusion. It would be easy fit (even including proper Rouge robbery) if Flynn just did issue #26 better.
Like, instead of talking how takes who, why not just send them instantly, maybe with some caption boxes explaining things (compare it to FF saving Prof Pickles in Archie 258). Showing campers on Island or Sonic on run mill could been cut, even Rouge scene could been condensed/cut. It doesn't move plot forward, just reminds us she's there.
And I know I keep bringing this up, but same thing happened in "Panic in the Sky". Flynn just loves people sitting in the circle and explaining the plot, which leads to rushed action scenes.

Admittedly, the only one that sorta mattered was Cream & Gemerl, which could've had Sonic/Tails come to them while each of the fights could've been preluded with said dialogue boxes as the heroes get their assignments. 

I'm also thinking back to the Milestone, which supposedly had extra pages and probably could've had the Sonic and Eggman argument.

On 6/26/2020 at 10:15 AM, Shadowlax said:

I would like to talk more about the book but like...i dunno man it just kinda happens. Ain't bad but yeah

Probably should've asked when this was posted, but on what topics?

On 6/26/2020 at 7:41 PM, KoDaiko said:

I wonder how much was Ian's idea and how much was the editor. As mentioned has done loose adaptations like Unleashed and Fighters, and have done creative interpretation on specific plot points (Proto Man, Mr. X, Super Adventure Rockman, Shadow Man and all space-related robots). But he also seemed to be committed to including every canon detail or reference from other materials that he think is neat or neccessary. 

I know Xander Payne had a much bigger presence in early versions of World Unite because of the editor, but I think the Mr. X connection was already planned.

From what I could tell though, he still had quite a lot of freedom overall. Might be worth asking how him.

On 6/26/2020 at 7:41 PM, KoDaiko said:

Ariga does mention on his twitter that he had much more freedom in creating his manga back then, but doesn't think he'd have the same freedom now. They weren't given any references by the companies, and there were barely any official materials aside from the game itself and manuals/occasional official guidebooks (he still did ask Capcom for approval whenever he did anything new). Now each Robot Master is given a detailed backstory and personality with official references, and Capcom would probably have a tighter grip on how to present the series.

.

That's how it was with Sonic for over a decade and likely other 80-90s IPs too. 

When the franchise is so fresh and yet selling like hot cakes, there's gonna creative liberties allowed that won't be as feasible later.

On 6/26/2020 at 7:41 PM, KoDaiko said:

 

(This is completely off topic, but this discussion is reminded me of Ian's initial pitch for a Mario comic on his twitter)

How so?

15 hours ago, Tracker_TD said:

I don't think it necessarily means anything in regards to canon; Movie Sonic and Longclaw showed up, but nobody's calling those canon to Modern Sonic. It's just a bit of cross-promo.

 

Pretty much.

[DabigRG]

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Man, how pissed off would people be if they actually get into a game. 

 

8 hours ago, Your Vest Friend said:

Well that would be terrible...for the comic.

Currently Tangle and Whisper seem to be the main outlets for some of the stuff that's not allowed for the game characters. If they made the jump into the games (that isn't a mobile game for cross-promotion), that would probably curtail any plans Ian had for them and have a knock on the comic narrative. Again.

 

7 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

It's the same logic that drives why Miyamoto's teams at Nintendo don't use Wario and Waluigi in their Mario platformers. They were made by specific teams for their specific takes on the Mario franchise. Even something as close as a seperate division can drive this wedge in what game makers want to do with their property.

In this case, the Freedom Fighters were made for Sega of America's needs not for Sega of Japan, and for the longest time SoJ went out of their way to scrub most of SoA's contributions to the series out. That also largely goes for the comics continuity which had long stayed outside of modern Sega's direct contribution and still held onto things they were reluctant to give a chance.

Pretty much my observation as well.

 

Though Waluigi is funny because while he primarily existed to give Wario someone to partner up, Miyamoto apparently helped with designing him. Was the Super Mario Land games not just made within Nintendo, though?

18 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

 

If this is true it would reinforce my idea that they are cooking up a new cartoon led by Ian and Tyson, with these gals included.

 

4 hours ago, SBR2 said:

He did say July. I don't know a lot about Dash are there like Cutscenes or dialogue boxes or anything like that? 

1. Sonic Dash is still going?

2. Did it tend to have events? I'm a tad surprised they didn't just put them in Speed Battle or that Runners sequel(How is that, btw?)

[Shadowlax]

@DabigRG

What I am saying is it ain't much to speak on.

It just happens. It kinda sucks we waited so long for that tbh.

Side note:

Spoiler

Folks on the net mad about shadow. I'm curious if they will suggest that shadow go even further in his bad characterization and actively start fighting omega and rouge because he does not value them and see them as friends. I would be curious to see the reaction to that

 

Yes I like to watch the world burn what of it

[Red Hot Jack]

Aaaand here they come!