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SSMB Doesn't Chuckle! 'KNUCKLEHEAD' Theme Returns!

IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread


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3 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The way I see that is that Shadow still says harsh things to get people off his back for the "morally incorrect" decisions he makes. If it was Rouge saying it he might even go a step further in the bluntness/harshness just to commit to the choice he made to save the day "on his terms".

Being more passive with a "I'll handle Starline, you save the village" vs. being harsher in the moment is the difference between a Shadow with less hangups and trust than right now vs. someone who is still set in his own ways. He's always emotionally distanced himself from others to allow him to make the "right" choice, so I don't see this as much as a misread, moreso doubling down on an aspect of Shadow that most media chose to ignore up until this point.

This is an absolutely valid and sound read of Shadow's character...in theory. It makes sense when you think about it conceptually, but it falls apart the second you put it under scrutiny.

I have no issue with Shadow being a flawed character who stumbles, that's fine.  That's good characterization. And that's exactly how he was in SA2. He's an absolute asshole in SA2, and makes it clear that his only concerns is following his plan. SA2 Shadow is focused and has purpose. 

This is not SA2 Shadow, he is not driven by a sense of purpose, but to stroke his own ego and avenge his loss to Starline earlier in the arc. It is a gross misrepresentation of the character. At least in SA2, shadow was a villain opposing the heroes so it makes sense that he's an obstacle. But when Shadow is an active hindrance while being on the heroic side, he ceases being any kind of help and becomes a liability. And God forbid he shows some basic empathy just because his pride was hurt. It does not make him admirable or make me feel sorry for him, it makes him an insufferable asshole who I actively want the villains to beat up on. And I last time I checked, I shouldn't be feeling that way about one of the "good" guys.

He showed more cared more about people when he was a villain, than he does right now as a "hero". That's all that needs to be said tbh.

You're free to interpret his character however you want, but for me I'll be very glad if Starline just beats him again and he just leaves and I don't have to see him for a long time because frankly, I'm sick of seeing him. I'm sick of him not contributing anything meaningful to any story he's in, I'm sick of the characters just accepting this behavior, and I'm sick of Sega just using him as a cheap marketing gimmick to garner reactions. And its pretty significant that they've managed to turn me so hard against a character I used to think was actually pretty great to watch.

I'm just tired of him man and I want him to go. Ill wait until the full issue is out, but I'm just over him at this point.

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34 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The way I see that is that Shadow still says harsh things to get people off his back for the "morally incorrect" decisions he makes. If it was Rouge saying it he might even go a step further in the bluntness/harshness just to commit to the choice he made to save the day "on his terms".

Being more passive with a "I'll handle Starline, you save the village" vs. being harsher in the moment is the difference between a Shadow with less hangups and more trust than right now vs. someone who is still set in his own ways. He's always emotionally distanced himself from others to allow him to make the "right" choice, so I don't see this as much as a misread, moreso doubling down on an aspect of Shadow that most media chose to ignore up until this point.

There's no good reason for him to not make his intentions clear to Sonic, emotionally distant or not. This feels like a reach. 

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is an absolutely valid and sound read of Shadow's character...in theory. It makes sense when you think about it conceptually, but it falls apart the second you put it under scrutiny.

I have no issue with Shadow being a flawed character who stumbles, that's fine.  That's good characterization. And that's exactly how he was in SA2. He's an absolute asshole in SA2, and makes it clear that his only concerns is following his plan. SA2 Shadow is focused and has purpose. 

This is not SA2 Shadow, he is not driven by a sense of purpose, but to stroke his own ego and avenge his loss to Starline earlier in the arc. It is a gross misrepresentation of the character. At least in SA2, shadow was a villain opposing the heroes so it makes sense that he's an obstacle. But when Shadow is an active hindrance while being on the heroic side, he ceases being any kind of help and becomes a liability. And God forbid he shows some basic empathy just because his pride was hurt. It does not make him admirable or make me feel sorry for him, it makes him an insufferable asshole who I actively want the villains to beat up on. And I last time I checked, I shouldn't be feeling that way about one of the "good" guys.

He showed more cared more about people when he was a villain, than he does right now as a "hero". That's all that needs to be said tbh.

You're free to interpret his character however you want, but for me I'll be very glad if Starline just beats him again and he just leaves and I don't have to see him for a long time because frankly, I'm sick of seeing him. I'm sick of him not contributing anything meaningful to any story he's in, I'm sick of the characters just accepting this behavior, and I'm sick of Sega just using him as a cheap marketing gimmick to garner reactions. And its pretty significant that they've managed to turn me so hard against a character I used to think was actually pretty great to watch.

I'm just tired of him man and I want him to go. Ill wait until the full issue is out, but I'm just over him at this point.

Nah, I understand he's after Starline because of personal reasons as well but he's still playing out the "is it the best option or not?" scenarios in his head, as his inner dialog at the start of the arc displayed. Saying it's "just because he wants to beat Starline's ass" is a pretty surface level perspective, even if it falls in line with his current goals.

In the arc, he's shown to be debating whether or not to help out Rouge/Cream's gang because he's already there, staying behind to ensure the abused chao were rescued, pretty clear disgust over their abuse, and the usual "I didn't do it for you" talk after rescuing Rouge and co. He's not just this mindless Vegeta clone who's wandering the countryside looking for a fight to prove himself, and anytime it devolves into that talking point it's pretty reductive tbh.

Secondly, I can get some people's frustration over Shadow showing more negative, heel-based moves than enjoyable positive moments, but it also feels like people purposefully ignore those moments when it comes to this comic? For every "Cowards run, I fight" line, there are about five times more lines that actually lend themselves to fleshing out a very game faithful take on Shadow actually doing justice to his complexity as an antihero. Being mad about him not being a "hero" constantly is pretty misplaced, because he never aspired to be such a thing outright. Not yet, at least.

There's potential for development and actual complexity with this Shadow, so I think it's far more valid than automatically defaulting him to the hero of the people that people seem to take from him after 06 happened. I definitely don't think that there'll be development anytime soon, considering the mandates and everything, but I respect the take far more for sticking to how Shadow should act post-SA2/Shadow than what the takes on him have been so far up to this point.

2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

There's no good reason for him to not make his intentions clear to Sonic, emotionally distant or not. This feels like a reach. 

Every moment with him interacting with Sonic up until this point has been him and Sonic inherently disagreeing with what needs to be done. Why would this situation play out any differently in his head?

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3 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

 

Every moment with him interacting with Sonic up until this point has been him and Sonic inherently disagreeing with what needs to be done. Why would this situation play out any differently in his head?

Why would he push back against something as simple as "You go this way, I go that way"? Conflict without any reason or motive behind it is dumb on it's own, but it's especially dumb when we're looking at two seasoned heroes who have a history  of putting the slapfights aside when people are in danger. 
 

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20 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Nah, I understand he's after Starline because of personal reasons as well but he's still playing out the "is it the best option or not?" scenarios in his head, as his inner dialog at the start of the arc displayed. Saying it's "just because he wants to beat Starline's ass" is a pretty surface level perspective, even if it falls in line with his current goals.

I don't think its asking a lot for him to show some basic empathy towards other people; he could easily just free Tails and Rouge and then pursue Starline. 

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In the arc, he's shown to be debating whether or not to help out Rouge/Cream's gang because he's already there, staying behind to ensure the abused chao were rescued, pretty clear disgust over their abuse, and the usual "I didn't do it for you" talk after rescuing Rouge and co. He's not just this mindless Vegeta clone who's wandering the countryside looking for a fight to prove himself, and anytime it devolves into that talking point it's pretty reductive tbh.

NotPride.png.2d96e7e8eb30c6e18b832cc9bc27335d.png

 

Are you sure about that?

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Secondly, I can get some people's frustration over Shadow showing more negative, heel-based moves than enjoyable positive moments, but it also feels like people purposefully ignore those moments when it comes to this comic? For every "Cowards run, I fight" line, there are about five times more lines that actually lend themselves to fleshing out a very game faithful take on Shadow actually doing justice to his complexity as an antihero. Being mad about him not being a "hero" constantly is pretty misplaced, because he never aspired to be such a thing outright. Not yet, at least.

You do understand that antiheroes are still ya know...heroes right? They actually help people, and are fundamentally good in spite of their anti traits. You kind of need heroic moments to balance that out and in case you've been reading a different book, he hasn't had many heroic moments that really stand out. 

Quote

There's potential for development and actual complexity with this Shadow, so I think it's far more valid than automatically defaulting him to the hero of the people that people seem to take from him after 06 happened. I definitely don't think that there'll be development anytime soon, considering the mandates and everything, but I respect the take far more for sticking to how Shadow should act post-SA2/Shadow than what the takes on him have been so far up to this point.

I want to actually like seeing on screen, if I don't like seeing him then I don't really care about "potential" development. Your good guys kind of need to have likable traits to get people to root for them, otherwise they're just assholes. 

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Back in my day, everyone I saw liked Shadow for being a pretty bad dude. 00's teens ate that cruel angsty edgy shit up. I find it really interesting how that changed.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me all that much if his flaws get explored more, but it's a shame we have to get spoon fed these story bits once a month.

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3 minutes ago, Natie said:

Back in my day, everyone I saw liked Shadow for being a pretty bad dude. 00's teens ate that cruel angsty edgy shit up. I find it really interesting how that changed.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me all that much if his flaws get explored more, but it's a shame we have to get spoon fed these story bits once a month.

Ya know, at least when Shadow was doing edgy and stupid shit before...he was know...actually accomplishing things. He doesn't really do shit anymore, so he just looks even more like a tryhard than usual. 

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6 hours ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:
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Oh lord, this is blatant character assassination at this point. I genuinely am starting to feel bad for the Shadow fans who've been forced to witness their favourite character reduced to this jackass discount Vegeta expy.

 

Spoiler

Don't feel bad. Ive been a shadow fan for a long time ever since that quick E3 tease years ago. If anything this just makes me like him more. I like the neutral ground shadow. I do not know where people get this idea shadow is supposed to be a morally upright black sonic.

 

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16 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Why would he push back against something as simple as "You go this way, I go that way"? Conflict without any reason or motive behind it is dumb on it's own, but it's especially dumb when we're looking at two seasoned heroes who have a history  of putting the slapfights aside when people are in danger. 
 

They've been in a grand total of three games where they fought against the same threat and only one of them lacked Sonic vs. Shadow tension, if not actual slapfighting lmao

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I don't think its asking a lot for him to show some basic empathy towards other people; he could easily just free Tails and Rouge and then pursue Starline. 

NotPride.png.2d96e7e8eb30c6e18b832cc9bc27335d.png

 

Are you sure about that?

You do understand that antiheroes are still ya know...heroes right? They actually help people, and are fundamentally good in spite of their anti traits. You kind of need heroic moments to balance that out and in case you've been reading a different book, he hasn't had many heroic moments that really stand out. 

I want to actually like seeing on screen, if I don't like seeing him then I don't really care about "potential" development. Your good guys kind of need to have likable traits to get people to root for them, otherwise they're just assholes. 

He could have, or Starline could have also specifically set them as a priority target to distract them from Starline himself. Shadow chose to skip and go for the head out the gate, so that's his best play at the end of the day. 

Shadow still operates off of empathy, it's why he fights the bad guys and helps out where he does. How far he goes out of his way and his goals for that though is constantly in question though, since he values his judgement way more. And yes, that makes him an asshole at the worst of times.

But Shadow doesn't care lmao

Asking for empathy is the main problem I see with the fanbase and Shadow as a character, though. Everyone has 06's final result for him as ideal, and even idealizes it further than how far the game took him, (even though the game's events were erased whoops) when asking for empathy is already asking for something that Shadow wasn't willing to give in the first place. In his own games he's acknowledged the empathy he has towards people in immediate danger, like with Rouge, or at least attempting to empathize with the collective good of people in general for Maria's sake, but he's always, always emotionally distanced himself for his own goals. If Tails and Rouge were in immediate danger with no one else to save them, then his empathy for their well being would take priority over his established objective, but if not, why would he choose to slow himself down like that?

I do get the idea that Shadow feels like he gets in the way with how little he actually accomplishes with these goals in IDW though. They've managed to bring Shadow's flaws and core back into the spotlight with IDW again, albeit indirectly when contending with mandates, but they really need to have him actually contribute to the progress of the main team if he's supposed to be someone to root for again. Without doing that, there's not a lot justifying including him in each new story if it's just retreading the same character beat over and over again. They could be giving him losses to give him more guilt or push other characters to finally snapping, but imo we reeeeeally don't need a more Punished Shadow, so... 😕

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Ryannumber1gamer
7 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Asking for empathy is the main problem I see with the fanbase and Shadow as a character, though. Everyone has 06's final result for him as ideal, and even idealizes it further than how far the game took him, (even though the game's events were erased whoops) when asking for empathy is already asking for something that Shadow wasn't willing to give in the first place.

In his own games he's acknowledged the empathy he has towards people in immediate danger, like with Rouge, or at least attempting to empathize with the collective good of people in general for Maria's sake, but he's always, always emotionally distanced himself for his own goals. If Tails and Rouge were in immediate danger with no one else to save them, then his empathy for their well being would take priority over his established objective, but if not, why would he choose to slow himself down like that?

I feel like now is a good time to point out that barring telling Omega to use a weapon, Rouge is still in immediate danger. Last issue established that she's still under Starline's hypnosis, even despite being able to think for herself now. When she was about to reveal Starline's identity to Tails, Starline told her not to spoil the surprise, which given Rouge's immediate silence, and her expression - was completely involuntary, and forced due to Starline's mind control.

I don't know if Shadow/Sonic were aware of how Tails and Rouge got into this situation in the first place, but I feel like that's still worth pointing out.

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2 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

They've been in a grand total of three games where they fought against the same threat and only one of them lacked Sonic vs. Shadow tension, if not actual slapfighting lmao

😕

When did Sonic and Shadow get into like this during 06 or Forces? 

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5 minutes ago, Ryannumber1Santa said:

I feel like now is a good time to point out that barring telling Omega to use a weapon, Rouge is still in immediate danger. Last issue established that she's still under Starline's hypnosis, even despite being able to think for herself now. When she was about to reveal Starline's identity to Tails, Starline told her not to spoil the surprise, which given Rouge's immediate silence, and her expression - was completely involuntary, and forced due to Starline's mind control.

Wouldn't that mean taking out Starline is still the best way to save her? Especially if Sonic untied them and then Starline actually used Rouge to fight against them?

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

When did Sonic and Shadow get into like this during 06 or Forces? 

06 had the tension, but they really weren't fighting the same threat. Forces is the one without all of that. (lol @ forces' story but I'll consider it an actual case for this)

I don't really consider it the same though being fair

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27 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Ya know, at least when Shadow was doing edgy and stupid shit before...he was know...actually accomplishing things. He doesn't really do shit anymore, so he just looks even more like a tryhard than usual. 

yeah that's the biggest problem, he doesn't have a big enough part in these stories yet to really explore a more flawed version of the character, so it just comes off annoying.

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12 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Asking for empathy is the main problem I see with the fanbase and Shadow as a character, though. Everyone has 06's final result for him as ideal, and even idealizes it further than how far the game took him, (even though the game's events were erased whoops) when asking for empathy is already asking for something that Shadow wasn't willing to give in the first place. In his own games he's acknowledged the empathy he has towards people in immediate danger, like with Rouge, or at least attempting to empathize with the collective good of people in general for Maria's sake, but he's always, always emotionally distanced himself for his own goals. If Tails and Rouge were in immediate danger with no one else to save them, then his empathy for their well being would take priority over his established objective, but if not, why would he choose to slow himself down like that?😕

His entire motivation in SA2 was motivated by the loss of a loved one, but you're gonna actually sit here and try and tell me that he has no capacity for empathy...

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4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So the character who's entir

His entire motivation in SA2 was motivated by the loss of a loved one, but you're gonna actually sit here and try and tell me that he has no capacity for empathy...

Capacity? Him being so close and being raised alongside Maria is the entire reason he has empathy like this in the first place. If he went through the same level of trauma without a relationship like that, he'd still be an outright villain.

Again, though, that made him jaded and bitter, and that's been his characterization since those events. You can't just wash all that away, moving on from the past or not.

5 minutes ago, Natie said:

yeah that's the biggest problem, he doesn't have a big enough part in these stories yet to really explore a more flawed version of the character, so it just comes off annoying.

Basically

I enjoy it for bringing the dynamic back into play after so many takes ignored it, but if this had been how shadow was portrayed for the last decade by everyone else, all that'd be left is the lack of accomplishment he's displaying lmao

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Ryannumber1gamer
1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

Wouldn't that mean taking out Starline is still the best way to save her? Especially if Sonic untied them and then Starline actually used Rouge to fight against them?

I'd imagine if they were aware of the hypnosis, the smarter idea would be to use their speed, grab Tails and Rouge, get them off the track, and then go back to fight Starline. It's something I don't really get here. I get the distance and time it would take to get back to the Ski Lodge, but it shouldn't be that hard to just grab them, get them off the roller-coaster, and then just go back for Starline again.

It's a moot point as is because Rouge already freed herself, so not pulling her out of the way means Starline would be more than able to stick her on Shadow and Tails, and provide himself back-up, and an escape plan. Unless Shadow was able to immediately knock Starline out before he got a chance to issue commands, which given he humiliated Shadow last time, is unlikely.

Not that it matters, I don't recall if Sonic/Shadow were made aware of the hypnosis, I'm just pointing out that Rouge is still in immediate danger either way, either now as a puppet, or a hostage. 

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I'm once again sitting here seeing  this thread once again become a hot button back-and-forth about Shadow, how he should be depicted, the problems with how Sega wants him to be represented nowadays, and now how one or two people don't really never really like them in the first place.

... And I don't care. 

Mind you, I stopped caring not too long after his first major appearance in the book, but then I think this is a matter of getting chocolate over any other flavor--its alright and can be good in the recipe, but I'd rather have strawberry, blueberry, or birthday among other less popular but certainly tasty ones.

And honestly, it was kind of a fear I had from the moment he turned out to have a subplot in this after initially being part of the main plot before being removed and that kind of goes for the story as a whole. Now, I know I've personally been busy for the last three or so months, which cut into my ability to really think or talk about this comic among other things...but damn it, is it hard. That doesn't really apply for the okay as it is Bad Guys, for the record, but the hard to get into main book.

And even ignoring the Debbie Downer that is Shadow, this is kind of a mess and not a particularly good or bad one(although it start kind of leans a little in the other direction by default). How do we go from having the main story being about Cream, Rouge, and whoever-the-f*** compete in the child races, with the backup story being about Sonic and Tails encountering Belle(as setup for whatever story she has in store down the road), to Shadow leading a smuggling ring bust and stopping Dr. Starline from kidnapping Tails & Rouge all in the same basic story title? It is common knowledge that covers and trailers aren't always appropriate representation of what the actual story is going to be, but whatever does this have to do with Chao Racing? Why are the Deadly Four involved so soon, beating out the final of Bad Guys and with little breathing room in the process?

This is all so disorganized and to an extent, uninteresting as a result. Accuse me biased[ if you dare], but when I saw this was going to be a story themed around Cream and Cheese, I expected a story featuring Cream and Cheesr in their element--she's barely done more than deliver a funny one-liner. When Clutch's design managed to stay a secret until the preview page with the poster was recognized, it's safe to assume on first impression that he just be a unusually regal rival character for this arc with an ironically ratty appearance that ends up causing character deiven conflict between Rouge and Cream with his esquire hoarding practices. Why is he suddenly drop not only any form of gentlemanly manner, but the cultured speaking pattern in general in favor of being hateable hoodlum this side of Nack the Weasel--who, by the way, is [in]appropriately a chance for Shadow to actually do something good for a second? Back to point, why that the f*** is Shadow showing up in the story at all if he's just going to ultimately derail it in favor of a bigger action based direction that we weren't supposed to be getting in the first place?

Remember those comments about year three being about lower stakes, self-contained stories.. yeah, what happened to that?!

3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Saying Shadow is like Vegeta is an insult. Vegeta is actually interesting. 

I'm sorry but I don't see how this is at all a betrayal of Shadow's character. Though I'll admit I don't like Shadow anyway but like in most of his appearances he 

A.) Spent most of the game trying to commit genocide until he remembered that a little dying girl didn't want him to do that.

B.) Didn't do anything but follow Rouge and Omega around and mope.

C.) Only really decided to stop the Black Arms because he thought about Maria.

Shadow is honestly pretty self absorbed and selfish and always has been. I don't know where this idea he isn't a giant awful crabass comes from.

You forgot 06, not to mention he ow Shadow was never really that aggressive outside of spinoffs and even then.

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1 minute ago, The Deleter said:

Capacity? Him being so close and being raised alongside Maria is the entire reason he has empathy like this in the first place. If he went through the same level of trauma without a relationship like that, he'd still be an outright villain.

Again, though, that made him jaded, and that's been his characterization since those events. You can't just wash all that away, moving on from the past or not.

Then what was the fucking point of helping Sonic save the planet if he still wasn't over his trauma. Because according to this logic, Shadow should have told Sonic "Fuck you, I got this" instead of helping him with the Final Hazard. 

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12 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

06 had the tension, but they really weren't fighting the same threat. Forces is the one without all of that. (lol @ forces' story but I'll consider it an actual case for this)

I don't really consider it the same though being fair

 Heroes had him fight Sonic for basically no reason but I thought everyone agreed the team fights in Heroes were poorly conceived.  It's hard to nail him down in a game like Shadow but he mostly seems annoyed with Sonic's personality more than anything else. 06 and Forces would be at the tail end of his development and the outward aggression is basically gone by that point and replaced with pragmatism IE going super with him at the end was a no brainer. I guess some people didn't like that and that's where the divide comes from? Like, they'd rather him be kind of a shit stirrer than 'boring'?

 

Evan seems confident that she nailed it so I'll just wait and see.

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Shadow Chaos Control
1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

The way I see that is that Shadow still says harsh things to get people off his back for the "morally incorrect" decisions he makes. If it was Rouge saying it he might even go a step further in the bluntness/harshness just to commit to the choice he made to save the day "on his terms".

Being more passive with a "I'll handle Starline, you save the village" vs. being harsher in the moment is the difference between a Shadow with less hangups and more trust than right now vs. someone who is still set in his own ways. He's always emotionally distanced himself from others to allow him to make the "right" choice, so I don't see this as much as a misread, moreso doubling down on an aspect of Shadow that most media chose to ignore up until this point.

I completely agree, Shadow distances himself emotionally to assess and make a clear choice. Sonic in contrast tends to leap on his emotion, but that makes him less objective.

Well said, I have little to add, well said.   

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2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

  I guess some people didn't like that and that's where the divide comes from? Like, they'd rather him be kind of a shit stirrer than 'boring'?

Which, as I said, is not a bad concept at all and a good point for the character to work off. But its never really used to any good effect at all; not only is it repetitive because that's literally all Shadow ever does nowadays, his actions never have any actual consequences. Nobody learns or gains anything from his appearances, he's nothing. 

At least when Vegeta stirred shit up, it had negative consequences. So I'm left wondering why do people prefer this direction for him if he never gets a chance to actually DO anything significant? I'd rather he be "boring" and actually accomplish something than being "interesting" while being incompetent. 

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Shadow Chaos Control
3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Which, as I said, is not a bad concept at all and a good point for the character to work off. But its never really used to any good effect at all; not only is it repetitive because that's literally all Shadow ever does nowadays, his actions never have any actual consequences. Nobody learns or gains anything from his appearances, he's nothing. 

0E031DAB-6835-4734-86C5-C5F96E2D417A.thumb.jpeg.302050c9aae709c6b756c5717e00161d.jpeg

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16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Then what was the fucking point of helping Sonic save the planet if he still wasn't over his trauma. Because according to this logic, Shadow should have told Sonic "Fuck you, I got this" instead of helping him with the Final Hazard. 

That's not my logic. And they were both planning on taking on Starline together until the distraction was used lol, not like Shadow cooperating with Sonic and his friends is unheard of in general

His trauma is what gave him his cynical and distanced disposition (as well as his hate that fueled him yes lol) as compared to his curious/hopeful perspective before the ARK events, that's the only thing it factors into. He's always been a pretty introspective, existential guy tho lmao

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14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 Heroes had him fight Sonic for basically no reason but I thought everyone agreed the team fights in Heroes were poorly conceived.  It's hard to nail him down in a game like Shadow but he mostly seems annoyed with Sonic's personality more than anything else. 06 and Forces would be at the tail end of his development and the outward aggression is basically gone by that point and replaced with pragmatism. I guess some people didn't like that and that's where the divide comes from? Like, they'd rather him be kind of a shit stirrer than 'boring'?

 

Evan seems confident that she nailed it so I'll just wait and see.

I definitely prefer him being a shit stirrer compared to being boring, yes. Or rather, I'd much rather see the character naturally progress from point A to B, where he goes from someone closed off from everyone else and trusting his own judgement, bitter attitude and all, to someone who actually learns to open up in the way he was open when he was with Maria. Everyone always leaps to the "team dark friends for life" bandwagon as their favorite version of Shadow after 06 but that never felt earned or natural, even though I wouldn't be opposed to it. Overall though I think there's far more weight behind treating him as a nuanced character who makes his own decisions for his own reasons in line with his established character rather than an ideal that people want to see, at the end of the day.

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Shadow Chaos Control
6 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

That's not my logic. And they were both planning on taking on Starline together until the distraction was used lol, not like Shadow cooperating with Sonic and his friends is unheard of in general

His trauma is what gave him his cynical and distanced disposition as compared to his curious/hopeful perspective before the ARK events, that's the only thing it factors into. He's always been a pretty introspective, existential guy tho lmao

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I definitely prefer him being a shit stirrer compared to being boring, yes. Or rather, I'd much rather see the character naturally progress from point A to B, where he goes from someone closed off from everyone else and trusting his own judgement, bitter attitude and all, to someone who actually learns to open up in the way he was open when he was with Maria. Everyone always leaps to the "team dark friends for life" bandwagon as their favorite version of Shadow after 06 but that never felt earned or natural, even though I wouldn't be opposed to it. Overall though I think there's far more weight behind treating him as a nuanced character who makes his own decisions for his own reasons in line with his established character rather than an ideal that people want to see, at the end of the day.

I agree Shadow stirring things up is better than him just being summoned to face some new threat. Shadow is a perfect embodiment of the antihero, and thus he is suppose to be bitter, closed off emotionally, and harsh. Those are reasons I like him so much.,

i like that you mentioned his trauma, the loss of Maria, someone he so cared about, set him up to become emotionally detached. It will be interesting to see if anyone can ever open his heart like Maria did.  

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