Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Red Hot Jack]

At this point, the wait for any announcements, comic delays, this Shadow break news... it's all working, I'm finally losing interest in the series, or starting to.

[Razule]

24 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...so then he wouldn't be the same.

Then perhaps saying people wouldn't mind was hyperbolic of me. 06 Shadow is just the closest the games have to a Shadow who's completed his arc. I'm sure most people would prefer a boring Shadow over the trainwreck we have now, but what I really meant was that a Shadow who reached a logical end point after his stories (working with GUN aside perhaps, I think that could be justified, but whatever) could have worked.

The characters are always going to change a little because they're going to be passed down to multiple writers over time. But as a basis, Shadow being "Sonic's gruff, no-nonsense rival who disagrees with him how to get things done, but ultimately has his heart in the right place" is a good starting point.

[Kuzu]

50 minutes ago, The KKM said:

Not really- characters evolving into a new status quo and then that status quo sticking, especially when it's their introductory story, is a very common technique in long-running franchises like this. See for instance Goemon's introduction in Lupin- antagonist to Lupin, enamoured of Fujiko, that story ends with Goemon joining the gang, now that's the status quo for the next 50 years.

 

Now, the question becomes, is the concept of Shadow being a loner, closed off, not showing his vulnerabilities, wanting to be stronger, wanting to be the coolest, a walk back on what came before game-wise? Forget Archie- just games. Some would argue yes because of 06, but I'm not certain. That's my personal opinion though, and mostly I think even if it a walk back is it's such a minor one (Shadow isn't particularly open and friendly in 06 either) as to be inconsequencial, if the execution pans through.

 

The bigger issue, on reception side, is the note I had to add of "Forget Archie". Shadow was mostly absent since 06, so a lot of people got their Shadow content from Archie itself, and that Shadow was frankly a lot different. That's why it feels like this "new" (really, been there since the start) concept is such a radical departure, I think, even for Ian himself- people didn't realise how different Archie Team Dark had become from the games since there wasn't really Team Dark in the games for a decade, and that colours their view of the characters overall.

 

Again though, not saying you have to like how Shadow's written in IDW. Outside of Chao Races and the last monologue in Zombot, I've not been a fan either, much like how I didn't like him in Free Riders, etc. The execution isn't there. But that to me has always seemed more an issue of the execution (Ian just having a lot of very understandable trouble adapting to a version of the character that's very different from what he wrote for a decade, Pontac and Graff just writing exaggeratedly comedic takes based on a short profile blurb, most likely) than the concept, because the concept is fine with me.

 

I'd compare it as Archie Shadow was Wolverine- dark and brooding yeah sure but also very openly emotional especially to friends. "I'm the best at what I do and what I do ain't pretty". Bike-driving, grumbly and complaining, comedic violent dark type who's very sure of himself and is opening up from a traumatic past. Sega Shadow is being compared over and over with Vegeta but I'd say more he's a Sasuke, classic non-adult Sasuke- loner, stay apart from people, hide his vulnerabilities, has people who'd normally be considered close friends but he refuses to think of them like that, wants to be stronger than everyone. I'm ok with either SasukeShadow or WolverineShadow, I'm moreso annoyed at people acting like SasukeShadow is a new thing or an inherently broken and impossible concept to work with.

This isn't a new introduction of Shadow; he's been around for two decades at this point, and his character reached its emotional peak almost 15 years ago. This new interpretation doesn't follow up on that, there's not even a narrative reason for this change in character. It's just something that happened because Sega said it has to happen. 

The reason people bring up Archie is because many felt like the way Flynn wrote him there was a natural follow up to what 06 established for the character; somebody who is somewhat closed off and emotionally distant from people and pragmatic to a fault, but has their best interests at heart and has no problems expressing his gratitude or respect to people. All of those are traits people would generally associate with a fully realized Shadow. 

How he's being interpreted now isn't just different from what Flynn has written before, it's straight not consistent how the character ended his story arc. He ended his story arc by putting his past behind him and moving forward, and choosing to continue protecting the world his friend loved while forming new connections with people in the present. 

So now, for no narrative reason as I mentioned, we're just supposed to accept that Shadow now only cares about fighting the strongest guys around and is dismissive of everyone he deems "weak", because he has to constantly prove himself to be "The Ultimate Lifeform". There's no transition, it's just something that happened because Sega said so. 

I can understand the logic of wanting to take Shadow's character in a new direction that would give him more longevity in the series, while still being a rival to Sonic, since that was his most popular depiction being Sonic Adventure 2. But they could have did that, while still respecting the fundamental core of who the character is. 

I don't think people are being unreasonable in being upset at such a blatant change in motivation. Even if writers could make the concept work, the fact remains is that its still fundamentally different from what the character has been established as prior.  Think logically dude. 

 

[SBR2]

I'm sorry but I fully agree with KKM here (Is it a sign of personal growth to agree with someone you considered your online nemesis for years?) Shadow honestly has never been all that different than he is now. The Shadow in his self titled game doesn't really feel all that divorced from the Shadow we saw in Sonic Forces IMHO. People are always telling me there's a huge difference in his character but I'm just not seeing it.

I honestly think a mix of headcanon and Archie has painted people's view of what Shadow and honestly what Team Dark's dynamic is actually like.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

18 minutes ago, Razule said:

Then perhaps saying people wouldn't mind was hyperbolic of me. 06 Shadow is just the closest the games have to a Shadow who's completed his arc. I'm sure most people would prefer a boring Shadow over the trainwreck we have now, but what I really meant was that a Shadow who reached a logical end point after his stories (working with GUN aside perhaps, I think that could be justified, but whatever) could have worked.

The characters are always going to change a little because they're going to be passed down to multiple writers over time. But as a basis, Shadow being "Sonic's gruff, no-nonsense rival who disagrees with him how to get things done, but ultimately has his heart in the right place" is a good starting point.

They already had the setup for meaningful change for the regular Shadow earlier in the book. They had Shadow and Sonic conflicting on how to handle Mr. Tinkerer, with Sonic and Rouge uneasily convincing him to leave Tinkerer alone. Hell, I'd like to think Maria would be the kind of person who would've given others a second chance, like Sonic.

If Ian wasn't told out of the blue by SEGA that Shadow now had to be written the way we got, we could've had Shadow have actual conflict with Sonic, and actually be angry at himself for allowing Sonic and Rouge to convince him to not take the pragmatic option. Shadow could've been furious with both himself and Sonic for letting the Metal Virus happen, and there could've been actual conflict and regret on Shadow's part for failing to protect the planet like he swore he would to Maria, and hell - that could've driven his last man standing attempt to use his inhibitors to blitz through the Zombots, a last ditch effort driven by regret and anger, and a desperate attempt to make it right.

Shadow's reached the end-point of his initial development, but it doesn't mean more can't be built on top of it and explored. Archie had things like Shadow Fall exploring his connections to the Dark Arms, and if he's truly more Mobian than Dark Arm, we got his conflict with Knuckles where he was willing to risk Angel Island to ensure the Master Emerald's safety, and we could have had something with IDW exploring Shadow not only blatantly failing Maria's wishes by making (what was in his mind) - a bad judgement call by letting Tinkerer go, but then also allowing his anger, frustration, and regret drive him into a hasty decision that causes him to turn and be used as a weapon against the very planet he swore to protect. 

We could've even probably still seen him go more lone-wolf, either because he partially blamed Rouge for convincing him to spare Tinkerer, or because he feels like he needs to be able to not allow emotion to temper his decisions, but it still would be some kind of development that informs Shadow as a character and doesn't make it feel like he's just been blatantly mischaracterised into a shit version of Vegeta. 

Vegeta's completed his development as far back as the Buu Saga, but despite a few missteps, they still use him extremely well, having him adapt to family life, having him reprioritise what he deems important in his life, having him forced to own up to the mistakes and people he hurt when he was a villain, etc. The idea you can't push a character past their initial development arc is pretty ridiculously, and extremely limiting. 

[Wraith]

Shadow "only seeking the strongest opponents" is so backwards that now I'm wondering if it was the result of a long game of telephone and not the official initiative actually is. It's not even fully consistent with his actions in this book. It makes some moments like him trying to strong arm the zombots make more sense, but others make less sense. If he's solely here for challenge, he probably wouldn't be investigating a Chao Race to begin with for starters and he definitely wouldn't be weighing the benefits of kicking Eggman while he's down.

I'm not going to be harsh on Ian for maybe fumbling some words when talking about this stuff casually, but maybe I'll take what he says with more of a grain of salt moving forward.

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I'm sorry but I fully agree with KKM here (Is it a sign of personal growth to agree with someone you considered your online nemesis for years?) Shadow honestly has never been all that different than he is now. The Shadow in his self titled game doesn't really feel all that divorced from the Shadow we saw in Sonic Forces IMHO. People are always telling me there's a huge difference in his character but I'm just not seeing it.

I honestly think a mix of headcanon and Archie has painted people's view of what Shadow and honestly what Team Dark's dynamic is actually like.

Can I ask you something then if you feel this way. Why do you think this new version of Shadow is getting such a contentious reception, while others are praising his prior depictions in Archie and 06? You're bringing up his game, where that version of him was ALSO contentious, but mysteriously leaving out the versions that people actually like?

Do you think people are just making things up? I honestly don't know what you're trying to accomplish.

[CertifiedNobody]

23 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Seriously, is SEGA ever going to let up on Shadow?

Since the movie writers have said they've played the Adventure games, a movie Shadow would likely be written correctly. If Shadows ends up appearing in the Sonic movies, SEGA will see that he can be more than hedgehog Vegeta.

[SBR2]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Can I ask you something then if you feel this way. Why do you think this new version of Shadow is getting such a contentious reception, while others are praising his prior depictions in Archie and 06? You're bringing up his game, where that version of him was ALSO contentious, but mysteriously leaving out the versions that people actually like?

Do you think people are just making things up? I honestly don't know what you're trying to accomplish.

Because those are literally the only times he's ever been the way people want him to be. Don't get me wrong I like Archie Shadow (06 Shadow had a good story but honestly his and everyone's characterization was so fucking bland I honestly can't be bothered to care) but that's not how Shadow is portrayed in the majority of his appearances.

[Kuzu]

Honestly ,this whole situation feels like the result of the whole Ken Penders debacle. Sega had no problem turning a blind eye to what the comics were doing before, but ever since that lawsuit, now they're extremely reluctant in letting Sonic off the leash like before and trying to make the brand as consistent as possible. 

Hopefully one day they ease up and just let Flynn run wild like before; Flynn understands and respects Sonic, and I'm sure he would temper himself enough to not let it get as crazy as pre-reboot Arche did before he came on.  But only time will tell, so we gotta deal with this for the time being. Flynn is actively pushing for more and more concepts to be added. 

[SBR2]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Honestly ,this whole situation feels like the result of the whole Ken Penders debacle. Sega had no problem turning a blind eye to what the comics were doing before, but ever since that lawsuit, now they're extremely reluctant in letting Sonic off the leash like before and trying to make the brand as consistent as possible. 

Hopefully one day they ease up and just let Flynn run wild like before; Flynn understands and respects Sonic, and I'm sure he would temper himself enough to not let it get as crazy as pre-reboot Arche did before he came on.  But only time will tell, so we gotta deal with this for the time being. Flynn is actively pushing for more and more concepts to be added. 

Or maybe quality control and maintaining some form of consistency isn't a bad thing?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Or maybe quality control and maintaining some form of consistency isn't a bad thing?

If that were actually the case, this whole Shadow debacle as it currently is wouldn’t be a thing given that his character’s inconsistency is the entire reason this has become an issue in IDW.

[Mauro Fonseca]

35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Can I ask you something then if you feel this way. Why do you think this new version of Shadow is getting such a contentious reception, while others are praising his prior depictions in Archie and 06? You're bringing up his game, where that version of him was ALSO contentious, but mysteriously leaving out the versions that people actually like?

Do you think people are just making things up? I honestly don't know what you're trying to accomplish.

Dunno what SRB has to say but on my end it's not I think people are making things up, but rather that I think they got very used to the Archie version and haven't realised how different that version was from the original. It happens a lot, sometimes it takes going on purpose to some earlier piece of media and rewatching/rereading/etc rather than relying on memories, to realise "oh, this was actually different from how I remember it". Fandoms in particular seem to go in cycles of this, as old materials get re-released, or some tastemaker makes a new video about "how X thing was actually Y", or so on.

 

40 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm not going to be harsh on Ian for maybe fumbling some words when talking about this stuff casually, but maybe I'll take what he says with more of a grain of salt moving forward.

I think the best way to take the Bumblekast, especially answers like this, is that he's venting. He kvetches, he exaggerates somewhat, because he's tired and frustrating, and working with a licensor is annoying, and so he says things in a way that comes across more negative and brutish than it likely is. I think a really good example was his recent reply of how he treated Rouge, where he reacts to Sega's mandating of Rouge in IDW as if it's unreasonable and exhausting, yet when you read the book, he clearly wrote a good Rouge and worked fine with said directions, so it clearly wasn't that unreasonable.

 

Especially in the context of a Q&A show where he's often getting a dozen questions aggravating him against Sega or against him, it's clear that the tone ends up more negative simply because it's what it lends itself to. It's like he's being thrown into a court to justify himself over and over.

[Kuzu]

16 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Because those are literally the only times he's ever been the way people want him to be. Don't get me wrong I like Archie Shadow (06 Shadow had a good story but honestly his and everyone's characterization was so fucking bland I honestly can't be bothered to care) but that's not how Shadow is portrayed in the majority of his appearances.

The majority of Shadow's popularity is from his debut in Sonic Adventure 2; that's the game that largely defines him in and out of the fanbase consistently. Additionally, everyone acknowledges how controversial his appearances  were later on , literally nobody has ever denied that, not even his own fanbase. 

So why do you think it's perfectly acceptable for him to be portrayed this way, despite knowing full well its not how most of his fanbase wants to him be seen? You have gone on record saying that you've never particularly cared about the character, yet you're here trying to defend a version of him that you know for a fact is controversial with the people that like him. Because?????

So either you don't care like you said, and if you don't, why are you trying to justify his changes knowing they aren't popular. Or, you have something against the character and are taking pride in the fact that he's being portrayed in way that isn't popular with his fans. 

I don't really care how you feel one way or another, but stop this wishy-washy attitude of trying to act like you don't care, but still trying to justify a change that you know isn't at all what people want from the character. If you hate Shadow and like seeing him treated like shit, then just say that. I'd accept that. 

But as it is now, I honestly don't understand what is it that you're trying to say or accomplish. 

14 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Or maybe quality control and maintaining some form of consistency isn't a bad thing?

You can be consistent without pissing off your longtime fanbase. 

[Razule]

47 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

The idea you can't push a character past their initial development arc is pretty ridiculously, and extremely limiting. 

Of course. I'm not against character development, I just don't think it's totally necessary here. If it can be done well, go ahead. They can have arcs, but I don't think they'd change too drastically. The main reason this discussion is taking place is that the character that SEGA wants Shadow to be isn't the logical evolution of the character.

[Kuzu]

13 minutes ago, The KKM said:

Dunno what SRB has to say but on my end it's not I think people are making things up, but rather that I think they got very used to the Archie version and haven't realised how different that version was from the original. It happens a lot, sometimes it takes going on purpose to some earlier piece of media and rewatching/rereading/etc rather than relying on memories, to realise "oh, this was actually different from how I remember it". Fandoms in particular seem to go in cycles of this, as old materials get re-released, or some tastemaker makes a new video about "how X thing was actually Y", or so on.

As I said before, fans had felt like Shadow's archie depictions were consistent with the character's endpoint in Sonic 06, ya know the version of him that people actually liked?

We're not doing this revisionist history of trying to say something was different than it actually was. Most of Shadow's fanbase understand how his story arc is laid out and where he ends up at the conclusion of it. At no point is Shadow ever motivated to just "fight strong guys" at all in it. Even in his own game where he's at arguably his most controversial, his motivation is to figure out his past, and not getting into fights for the sake of it, outside of just one ending. And The true ending of that game is him putting his story to a close and moving on with his life. 

Literally all of this is viewable on Youtube, so no that's not excuse either. Everyone acknowledges how messy Shadow's story arc was, but that doesn't change where he ultimately ended up at the end of it, and how his current iterations make no sense as a logical follow up to it. 

[Wraith]

Now that creative teams I actually like are getting their hands on Sonic more regularly I'd rather licensors be less involved but I suppose it can't be helped.

28 minutes ago, The KKM said:

 

 

I think the best way to take the Bumblekast, especially answers like this, is that he's venting. He kvetches, he exaggerates somewhat, because he's tired and frustrating, and working with a licensor is annoying, and so he says things in a way that comes across more negative and brutish than it likely is. I think a really good example was his recent reply of how he treated Rouge, where he reacts to Sega's mandating of Rouge in IDW as if it's unreasonable and exhausting, yet when you read the book, he clearly wrote a good Rouge and worked fine with said directions, so it clearly wasn't that unreasonable.

 

Especially in the context of a Q&A show where he's often getting a dozen questions aggravating him against Sega or against him, it's clear that the tone ends up more negative simply because it's what it lends itself to. It's like he's being thrown into a court to justify himself over and over.

That makes sense. I'm surprised he's even given the freedom to say this much since most brands like to portray a smooth ship.

Evan makes it sound more like a collaborative effort whenever she talks about it on social media. Whether it's because her ideas are getting rejected less often or if it's just her knowing not to stir the pot, I'm not sure.

[SnooPigu]

Maybe Shadow will get better when sega allows him to be as pivitol to the setting like Sonic and Eggman is and his own main character role narrative.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Now that creative teams I actually like are getting their hands on Sonic more regularly I'd rather licensors be less involved but I suppose it can't be helped.

That makes sense. I'm surprised he's even given the freedom to say this much since most brands like to portray a smooth ship.

Evan makes it sound more like a collaborative effort whenever she talks about it on social media. Whether it's because her ideas are getting rejected less often or if it's just her knowing not to stir the pot, I'm not sure.

I'd imagine Evan is much more agreeable since this is her first gig in the main product, and she's much more appreciative for the opportunity.

Flynn has been working on Sonic comics for a while now, and he had much more creative freedom before. So it's probably frustrating for him that he now has to follow guidelines being set by someone else after being off his leash for so long. It's probably a little bit of his ego too, since he knows for a fact that his writing is popular in the fanbase, and now he's forced to compromise that because of corporations. 

 

Flynn is not the only comic book writer who has had to deal with this though; there are plenty of comic book writers annoyed at how they have to adhere to whatever the licensor wants regardless of their own input on the matter.

[StaticMania]

If Shadow's backstory doesn't matter anymore and all he cares about is who can give him a good fight, then why can't he be a villain again?

A strong villain who can give him a good fight, why can't he be the modern version of an anti-hero?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

If Shadow's backstory doesn't matter anymore and all he cares about is who can give him a good fight, then why can't he be a villain again?

A strong villain who can give him a good fight, why can't he be the modern version of an anti-hero?

Because it risks committing to the same problem of not being consistent to the characters or a logical follow up of his actions. He’s since gone the path of a hero—a rather selfish one from the looks of how Sega wants him portrayed, but a hero nonetheless. Turning him into a villain without any logic to it is just going right back to square one over the whole debacle.

Now if this were an alternate setting like Boom, then you could go crazy with the idea. But this is suppose to be more in line with the portrayal of the Main Series games.

 

[GentlemanX]

I think its fair to say that IDW Shadow is comparable to Shadow's appearances in titles like ShTH, Chronicles, Free Riders, and TSR, but it does feel inconsistent with titles like 06, Colors DS, and Forces, at least to me. In the former, all Shadow seems to want to do is antagonize Sonic and the rest of the cast to prove his own superiority while in the later he seems more mission focused on whatever needs his attention and actively cooperates with others to reach his goals. Note the difference in Shadow's behavior in the case of Omega for example. In 06 Shadow is openly disappointed he can't do anything to help Omega in Crisis City and what happened to Omega is the first thing he asks Infinite in Episode Shadow. In IDW by comparison, he actively shows no interest in helping Omega in Chao Races, even when he doesn't have another immediate objective to prioritize. Plot wise, it allows Shadow to do other things so the story isn't contained to one continuous part, but character wise it only paints Shadow as hostile.

Speaking of hostility toward other characters, let's talk a bit about Shadow and another character - Amy - as a way to discussing another element to Shadow's character; his role as a protector. Since we're referencing how Archie Sonic was different, back when Treasure Team Tango was being released fans were a bit confused why Shadow was more violent with Amy in that story compared to how Shadow interacted with her in SA2, following up on their moment together during the Last Story. Ian defended this by noting that Archie Sonic's version of SA2 was different as shown in Sonic Universe #2 and therefore Archie Shadow never had a similar moment with Archie Amy. This moment with Amy has been used to explore Shadow's protector role with characters across Sonic media such as Hope in the Archie comics and Chris and Molly in Sonic X. In the games, while Shadow has not been given as close a bond as those examples, 06 notably frames the narrative more broadly as protector of humanity. It's his big moment of defying Mephiles not once but twice in the narrative - even if humanity betrays him he will still fight to defend it because that's the promise he made to Maria and later Amy.

These are all core aspects of Shadow's character baked into his characterization in SA2 and 06. He rescues Rouge, with her dilemma reminding him of his promise to Maria, the first time he seems to remember Maria's words in the story, then saves the planet from Gerald's revenge plot, then the world again from the Black Arms, and then once again from Mephiles/Iblis/Solaris. That said, it's likely Sega pivoted away from this following 06 given the complaints about the stories being too serious and too divorced from the Sonic/Eggman conflict that the series started with. Forces is the first main series game since 06 to prominently feature Shadow among other secondary characters in the story, and it too is greatly effected by the changes made to the series' direction in the intervening years. It's also possible Shadow's current attitude itself is a response to the fan outcry at "You got dis Sonic" from Generations, but I'd be surprised about that.

The long and short of it is this - is Shadow's portrayal in IDW completely out of nowhere? No, I think you can chart a trajectory on how he got here and there are examples of this you can bring up that occurred prior. Does that mean he's compatible with the more popular portrayals of him both in and out of the games? I don't think so, I believe there's a strong case to be made that Sega has chosen to ignore a lot of what made Shadow popular in the first place out of a belief those elements were not the direction general audiences wanted (note here: I mean that what made Shadow popular with Shadow fans during the 00s was unpopular with general fans of the series notably those from the 90s).

[Kuzu]

Oh yea, I know that. Like I said, this new version of Shadow is pretty much meant to appeal to people who didn't like or care for what he was in his more popular portrayals, because Sega figured this is what the mainstream audience wants to see out of him, just being an egotistical and selfish asshole because that's popular with evil doppelgangers I guess. 

It's just kind of annoying how it's essentially a middle finger to the people who liked him for who he is, controversy be damned. But hey, corporate is gonna corporate. 

[Razule]

I've heard it said that Shadow tends to be different in the Japanese and American scripts. Given that Sonic Boom was an American project and Sonic Forces was only translated into English, and both those Shadows were very different, maybe the "Vegeta-Shadow" is something that Sega of America wants to push for whatever reason?

[Your Vest Friend]

Wouldn't be that surprised tbh. SoA have been kinda pushing in on things this last decade.