Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[dudebro1993]

1 minute ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I don't think Shadow should win all the time, but I'd rather not have them end up making him look bad just to boost a new character.

I completely agree! 

[Dr. Mechano]

It's Sonic.

Anybody has the potential to beat anybody.

Knuckles is stronger than Sonic, but Sonic's faster. Either one of them could win - depending on choices in battle, as well as other mitigating factors like environment.

Another example: Sonic's more physically powerful than Eggman, but Eggman's smarter, and has - at times - beaten Sonic before. It's not always about pure power.

Or just look at all the playable character/team battles in the Adventure games and Heroes. Team Dark can beat the Chaotix - or the Chaotix can beat Team Dark. Both outcomes are possible. The goofy trio of detectives can - under the right circumstances - best the Ultimate Lifeform, the killer robot, and the seasoned jewel thief. 

Honestly? It's best to just kick back and enjoy the action. Not knowing who would win, not taking it as a foregone conclusion, not expecting your favorite character to steamroll every opponent every time is good because it actually builds suspense. Who knows who'll win the next fight? Certain characters may have slight advantages or have better matchups than others, but it's still anyone's game.

And that's how I like it.

[dudebro1993]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Oh boy, here we fucking go...deep breathes. 

 

 

Shadow is consistently portrayed as one of the strongest Sonic characters in the setting, but that does not mean that he is invincible or prone to getting caught off guard by other characters. We literally just had a comic book issue of Sonic & Tails getting overwhelmed by the Deadly Six and only winning through trickery and misdirection. Sonic is not Dragon Ball, characters do not have "power levels" and can be overwhelmed in specific circumstances. 

I agree, but in the examples I listed above Shadow didn't get caught off guard. Shadow somehow got nerfed against Knuckles and the team battles, but yet was able to defeat Archie Sonic - the most overpowered and godlike character in the comic series. That's inconsistent. 

[Rabbitearsblog]

7 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I don't think Shadow should win all the time, but I'd rather not have them end up making him look bad just to boost a new character.

I agree with this.  If the mandates are making it hard to write Shadow, then I would rather him stay off the main events from the books for awhile until SEGA lets up on their mandates.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

I agree, but in the examples I listed above Shadow didn't get caught off guard. Shadow somehow got nerfed against Knuckles and the team battles, but yet was able to defeat Archie Sonic - the most overpowered and godlike character in the comic series. That's inconsistent. 

Because you're assuming Knuckles is weak when he's literally one of the strongest characters in any given setting he's in. 

And Shadow was completely caught off guard by certain opponents in TTT.

 

Once again, you're trying to apply Dragon Ball Z logic when it doesn't work. So I will say this so you get it: Sonic characters are not Dragon Ball characters, they do not have "Power levels", which means the rules that you are trying to apply do not work. Period. 

 

[dudebro1993]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because you're assuming Knuckles is weak when he's literally one of the strongest characters in any given setting he's in. 

And Shadow was completely caught off guard by certain opponents in TTT.

 

Once again, you're trying to apply Dragon Ball Z logic when it doesn't work. So I will say this so you get it: Sonic characters are not Dragon Ball characters, they do not have "Power levels", which means the rules that you are trying to apply do not work. Period. 

 

So Shadow can beat Sonic but not Knuckles? The same Knuckles that always loses to Sonic because Sonic is faster (like Shadow). That is inconsistent. 

[Sonictrainer]

In regards to Shadow

I would be very very careful about trying to compare the same character from different continuities.

I don't remember a single battle in Archie where Shadow could knock someone out of their super form with a single Chaos Spear, without being in his Chaos Form or Super Form.

 

Anyway, here's some more Surge art

Quote

Thomas: Everyone is Surge posting so I figured I'd drop a few.

Quote

Evan Stanley: The thumbs for this cover were a LOT of fun to do

 

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

So Shadow can beat Sonic but not Knuckles? The same Knuckles that always loses to Sonic because Sonic is faster (like Shadow). That is inconsistent. 

Shadow can beat Knuckles. He just didn't.

Losing a fight to someone doesn't mean the person he lost to is just automatically stronger than him or even that he'd necessarily win in a rematch.

Sonic has lost to Eggman before. Does that mean "Sonic can't beat Eggman?" Obviously not, he beats Eggman all the time. And yet, sometimes Eggman still squeaks by with a win. 

Losing a fight says nothing about Shadow's strength or the strength of the character he lost to. Don't look too deeply into it.

[Kazhnuz]

In any battle, a writer can find a way to make a character or another loose. Shadow is one of the most powerful character. But it's easy to make it overly rely on power/talent alone, and find a clever way to make him loose. Knuckles is a strong character, and  can beat Shadow, especially in the case where Shadow don't want to kill him and thus won't use all its power.

But you can really take nearly all character and make them "win" one way or another. Power is not everything.

 

I agree though that giving a victory to Shadow in IDW would be nice, tho, and that even with the "mandates", it might be possible to handle him better if the Sonic Channel are representative that what Sonic Team works (and they might, as Eitaro Toyoda seems involved with both). I wouldn't blame Flynn to have trouble to handle that, tho.

[DabigRG]

Anyone else been getting Studio Trigger vibes from Surge?

[Kuzu]

22 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

So Shadow can beat Sonic but not Knuckles? The same Knuckles that always loses to Sonic because Sonic is faster (like Shadow). That is inconsistent. 

You're looking way too deep into this dude. Like Mechano said, a character losing once does not reflect that they would always lose in the same scenario. 

Like, if Shadow kept losing every single conflict he got involved in, I'd say you have a point but that's not the case at all. Sometimes Sonic beats Shadow, sometimes Shadow beats him, sometimes Shadow can't beat Knuckles, but that doesn't suddenly mean that Knuckles is better. 

Conflict is not a binary case of "Character A beat Character B, but Character B beat Character C, so therefore A is stronger than C"

[Sonictrainer]

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Anyone else been getting Studio Trigger vibes from Surge?

...I can kind of see what you mean.

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You're looking way too deep into this dude. Like Mechano said, a character losing once does not reflect that they would always lose in the same scenario. 

Like, if Shadow kept losing every single conflict he got involved in, I'd say you have a point but that's not the case at all. Sometimes Sonic beats Shadow, sometimes Shadow beats him, sometimes Shadow can't beat Knuckles, but that doesn't suddenly mean that Knuckles is better. 

Conflict is not a binary case of "Character A beat Character B, but Character B beat Character C, so therefore A is stronger than C"

This.

If that were the case, that means Antoine is stronger than Shadow.

[SkullPirateMike]

1 hour ago, dudebro1993 said:

So Shadow can beat Sonic but not Knuckles? The same Knuckles that always loses to Sonic because Sonic is faster (like Shadow). That is inconsistent. 

Shadow spends like half of Sonic Battle losing fights to children, it just depends on what the plot needs in that moment

[Kuzu]

He WAS nerfed in Battle due to an injury, but yea. 

[SkullPirateMike]

Just now, Kuzu said:

He WAS nerfed in Battle due to an injury, but yea. 

An injury that he got from being overconfident while fighting random Guard Robos that even Cream can beat. It's pretty in-line with how he's been in IDW.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

An injury that he got from being overconfident while fighting random Guard Robos that even Cream can beat. It's pretty in-line with how he's been in IDW.

Yea, contrary to popular belief, Shadow DOES tend to overestimate his own abilities sometimes. 

ITs just that he was generally able to back that up before; they just started leaning more into his overconfidence actually being a BAD thing recently.

He also decided to fight Mephiles alone despite having no way to return to the present had Omega not intervened, and he had no way of know that was going to happen. 

[dudebro1993]

6 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

An injury that he got from being overconfident while fighting random Guard Robos that even Cream can beat. It's pretty in-line with how he's been in IDW.

 

10 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

Shadow spends like half of Sonic Battle losing fights to children, it just depends on what the plot needs in that moment

So inconsistency has been the norm for most Sonic media? I  never realised until now

[Dr. Mechano]

13 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

An injury that he got from being overconfident while fighting random Guard Robos that even Cream can beat. It's pretty in-line with how he's been in IDW.

You say "even Cream," but like. Cream's a powerhouse, and that's even before you factor in Cheese. We don't know how hard she can hit, because she's never attacked directly before, but that girl can lift Big the Cat, who weighs 600 pounds.

But yeah, offense-wise, Cream's basically a beastmaster rather than a direct combatant - and that's where her strength lies. Cheese probably has maxed-out stats and can dish out a cartoonish amount of damage, shredding through Eggman's mechs in the Advance games like paper. She's the "easy mode" character for a reason, and that reason is she's crazy overpowered.

Don't underestimate the bunny.

[SkullPirateMike]

7 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

So inconsistency has been the norm for most Sonic media? I  never realised until now

No, it's actually been very consistent. Most games Shadow appears in begin with him doing the wrong thing and later admitting his mistake, just as he's been doing in IDW.

SA2 - tries to destroy the world, realises it's wrong

Battle - tries to destroy Emerl for most of the game, realises it's wrong

Shadow - Gives the Chaos Emeralds to Black Doom, realises it was a mistake

06 - Releases Mephiles from the scepter, spends the whole game trying to fix his mistake

That's Shadow's general arc, and whether he loses or wins fights is all in service of furthering that.

EDIT:

2 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

You say "even Cream," but like. Cream's a powerhouse, and that's even before you factor in Cheese. We don't know how hard she can hit, because she's never attacked directly before, but that girl can lift Big the Cat, who weighs 600 pounds.

But yeah, offense-wise, Cream's basically a beastmaster rather than a direct combatant - and that's where her strength lies. Cheese probably has maxed-out stats and can dish out a cartoonish amount of damage, shredding through Eggman's mechs in the Advance games like paper. She's the "easy mode" character for a reason, and that reason is she's crazy overpowered.

Oh, agreed. But that's the point, Cream is the character you'd expect to be weakest, because she's canonically a pacifist, but she can kick Shadow's butt in both Heroes and Battle. The characters are all kinda designed to be on equal footing.

Edited September 3, 2021 by SkullPirateMike

[Kuzu]

Cream is generally coded as being a child, and one that hates violence at that. In a straight up fight, and if she really wanted to , she could probably give him a run for his money. 

Like, everyone is on a relatively even playing field, but there's pretty clearly some characters on a higher tier than others, even if that's really not that noticeable. 

 

 

Like just because let's say: Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles are on Tier 3, doesn't mean the likes of Amy or Cream, who let's say are in Tier 2, couldn't beat them. 

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like just because let's say: Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles are on Tier 3, doesn't mean the likes of Amy or Cream, who let's say are in Tier 2, couldn't beat them. 

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Higher-tier characters might be favored to win but that doesn't mean they necessarily always would.

On this note, I feel like Eggman is "Tier ?" - He can pilot ramshackle contraptions that barely work and he can pilot gigantic death mechs that give even Super Sonic a run for his money, and everything in between those two extremes. His stats are always varied and unpredictable because of his use of constantly-changing weapons, which makes him kind of a wildcard.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Anyone else been getting Studio Trigger vibes from Surge?

She really does have sharp teeth

[Kuzu]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Higher-tier characters might be favored to win but that doesn't mean they necessarily always would.

On this note, I feel like Eggman is "Tier ?" - He can pilot ramshackle contraptions that barely work and he can pilot gigantic death mechs that give even Super Sonic a run for his money, and everything in between those two extremes. His stats are always varied and unpredictable because of his use of constantly-changing weapons, which makes him kind of a wildcard.

Eggman's competence is entirely dependent on how smart he's being on that particular day; on a good day, he can outhink circles around his opponents...on a bad day, his arrogance and temper almost always get the better of him, causing him to make critical mistakes. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

47 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

 

So inconsistency has been the norm for most Sonic media? I  never realised until now

Where the hell have you been this last decade then?

[Kazhnuz]

13 hours ago, dudebro1993 said:

So inconsistency has been the norm for most Sonic media? I  never realised until now

I wouldn't call Shadow loosing a battle or a lot of them an inconsistency, even if he is basically one of the the most powerful character, there are ways to overpower him.

Shadow is powerful, but he isn't some kind of invincible demigod. And especially in a videogame IP, it's normal that he'll loose.

 

My issue is more the few time it's not really well handled, for instance during the Super Neo Metal Sonic battle.

I find that it's a moment where an action that was obviously a good thing (defeating Super Neo Metal Sonic when he was mopping the floor with Sonic & Knux) was shown as bad for plot purpose using an information that Shadow couldn't have (that somehow Neo didn't need Chaos DNA). And IDW19 but everybody talked about IDW19, I'm not sure it's worth adding anything or beating this dead horse.

The problem for me isn't that it's "inconsistent with its power level". it's more that nearly every of his apparition, he have to loose for plot purpose and is mostly sent into fight that if he won, it would stop the plot xD (or reduce the stakes)