Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

I guess I interpreted him wanting to make Eggman pay for his crimes, trying to evacuate people from the city to save them from the virus and trying to stop Starline and rescuing Clutch's Chao as part of him protecting the planet. I honestly don't understand the distinction. Is it because he didn't make a grand speech about how he's doing it for Maria or something? Like, he's out there doing heroic deeds, and we know his motivation for doing those is his promise to Maria... do we need to be reminded every few issues or something? I'm geniunely baffled by the discourse. Baffled!

This is why, to me, it comes across that people just want Shadow to be an invincible, infallible god who shows up and saves the day every few issues. Because most of the things people are asking for are there, just not enough, apparently. It sounds like the Shadow people want would make it a very boring book.

Its more about consistency than anything. Shadow isn't that much of an emotive character, so if his motivations aren't clear then the audience will be confused.

You keep trying to strawman some argument about how he has to be some type of invincible God when people have been bringing up his Archie interpretation where invincible is the last thing he is.

Like, how difficult is it to understand that his fans want his character to be consistent and not be arbitrarily changed by the whims of his creators? 

 

[charmsb]

https://linkto.run/p/PCGRW8CW

^^^^ Poll for the decision to make a separate Shadow topic

Just kinda wanted to gauge interest. Strawpoll isn't working if youre weirded out by that link.

[Razule]

27 minutes ago, charmsb said:

I'm thinking an "IDW Shadow" topic is in order at this point lol.

Now'd be as good a time as any since there's a dedicated comic sub-forum. 

[charmsb]

I'll go ahead and make it after a few more results from the poll (and then subsequently unfollow my own topic because I frankly am tired of the discussion lol)

 

[CertifiedNobody]

2 minutes ago, charmsb said:

I'll go ahead and make it after a few more results from the poll (and then subsequently unfollow my own topic because I frankly am tired of the discussion lol)

Yeah I feel that. It seems like these discussions just fill up the thread and distract from more relevant conversations

[SkullPirateMike]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Its more about consistency than anything. Shadow isn't that much of an emotive character, so if his motivations aren't clear then the audience will be confused.

You keep trying to strawman some argument about how he has to be some type of invincible God when people have been bringing up his Archie interpretation where invincible is the last thing he is.

Like, how difficult is it to understand that his fans want his character to be consistent and not be arbitrarily changed by the whims of his creators?

I don't know what he's like in Archie, so I'm sorry if my opinion on how you guys want him portrayed is wrong - I've pieced it together from what's been said in this thread, where the discussion is mostly "He should be written like this!" "He is." "Yeah, but more!"

The part that's confusing to me is people asking for consistency. I spent the summer replaying the whole series, and from my point of view IDW is completely consistent with how he is in the games, especially 06. In 06 Shadow has no interest in dealing with Eggman's world domination plot, he's there to save Rouge and then he's ready to bounce ("My mission was to rescue you, nothing more.") until Mephiles, a much stronger foe, rears his head. Then, in the next major story event Mephiles very easily goads Shadow into giving up his only ticket back to the past, because Shadow makes a stupid, hotheaded decision to chase him instead of using the portal. It's all so in line with IDW Shadow.

(EDIT: To add to this, at one point in 06 Shadow confronts Eggman in person while Eggman has Elise captive, and Shadow does nothing to rescue her - he's not interested in that. He's there for information on Mephiles. Very in line with him not caring about the avalanche (though he changed his mind and DID help with the latter.))

It sounds like Shadow got a lot of development in Archie, and it sounds like that development was good! I'm not knocking it! People want it back for a reason! But that's an alt-universe Shadow, and IDW Shadow hasn't had that development. It sounds like a big part of Shadow's development in Archie was tied to time he spent with Cream. Has he ever even spoken to Cream in the games? Even in his own game Amy's the one conversing with Cream in the one stage she appears (as a collectible item) in.

Like I said, I don't know Archie Shadow. I know Shadow from the games and Sonic X, and IDW Shadow is him. The only time I've seen Shadow be portrayed inconsistently from this was in Free Riders, where he was more like a Team Rocket member (which was a strange choice, since the Babylon Rogues already kinda fill that role).

I don't think we need another topic (unless other people want to keep talking about it), I wasn't ever really that interested in talking about Shadow. He just keeps coming back! I guess that's sort of his thing, huh?

[Kuzu]

I think the reason you're getting confused is that you're ignoring the context of these scenarios and thinking about them broadly instead of understanding how they fit into the narrative.

In 06, Shadow doesn't fight Mephiles because "he's strong" but because Mephiles is trying to destroy all of reality,  and that's something Shadow calls him out on. Mephiles is a bigger immediate threat than Eggman, who he knows Sonic is dealing already dealing with. 

When he learns Omega is the one who seals him away, he actually looks dejected and Rouge reaffirms their friendship, he accepts it rather than brushing it off.

And I say this as someone who thinks his 06 portrayal isn't as good as the fandom hypes it up as. Its just Shadow getting shit done, but it doesn't exactly expand on his character either.

 

None of that is present in his IDW portrayal. He actively disregards the words of his "friends" and is blatantly dismissive of the suffering of others when its pointed out that people are in danger and doesn't even bother helping Tails or Rouge when they're in trouble. Its "consistent" if you look at it, in the broadest way possible, but without any of the context provided, it just makes look like a dick with no motivation.

 

Archie!Shadow is an alt version, but its a version that logically follows what the character should have gone through and get the stick out of his ass somewhat.

[charmsb]

*Cough*

If you so desire, anyway.

[Kuzu]

I'm not going to another topic to make a point I can do just as easily here. I said what I had to say.

[SkullPirateMike]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

None of that is present in his IDW portrayal. He actively disregards the words of his "friends" and is blatantly dismissive of the suffering of others when its pointed out that people are in danger and doesn't even bother helping Tails or Rouge when they're in trouble. Its "consistent" if you look at it, in the broadest way possible, but without any of the context provided, it just makes look like a dick with no motivation.

Sorry, I just don't see how that's different than him not bothering to save Elise despite getting to Eggman first while he has her captive. He just has a friendly chat with Eggman about Mephiles and then leaves Sonic to save her. It's not his problem. That's been his deal forever. If it ain't literally ending the world, Shadow doesn't tend to bother with it.

You make a lot of distinctions in his actions that I just don't see. I don't see why he can do one thing in IDW and be morally wrong, but it was okay when he did the same thing in the games. I think Shadow being morally grey is sort of the point of him as an antithesis to Sonic, and always has been.

But obviously, we're not gonna agree, and I'm tired of talking about it, so

(EDIT: Just to clarify, the distinction I'm not seeing is how it was okay for him to disregard Eggman's world domination plan because he knew Sonic was handling it, when the same could be said of the avalanche. And it's okay that he didn't save Elise, but ignoring Tails and Rouge is bad... even though Rouge broke them out herself moments later? Which Elise couldn't do? I feel like if anything, he's WORSE in the games.)

[Zaysho]

13 minutes ago, charmsb said:

*Cough*

If you so desire, anyway.

Could you please stop policing the topic because it's mildly inconvenient to you? You made that topic as an option, and I get it with how this thread is about this character, and it will probably get used in the future, but there's no harm in letting this conversation play out. You are not a moderator so you don't get to decide when this ends or moves where you want it so maybe find more constructive ways of redirecting the conversation if you're not interested.

[Kuzu]

24 minutes ago, SkullPirateMike said:

Sorry, I just don't see how that's different than him not bothering to save Elise despite getting to Eggman first while he has her captive. He just has a friendly chat with Eggman about Mephiles and then leaves Sonic to save her. It's not his problem. That's been his deal forever. If it ain't literally ending the world, Shadow doesn't tend to bother with it.

You make a lot of distinctions in his actions that I just don't see. I don't see why he can do one thing in IDW and be morally wrong, but it was okay when he did the same thing in the games. I think Shadow being morally grey is sort of the point of him as an antithesis to Sonic, and always has been.

But obviously, we're not gonna agree, and I'm tired of talking about it, so

(EDIT: Just to clarify, the distinction I'm not seeing is how it was okay for him to disregard Eggman's world domination plan because he knew Sonic was handling it, when the same could be said of the avalanche. And it's okay that he didn't save Elise, but ignoring Tails and Rouge is bad... even though Rouge broke them out herself moments later? Which Elise couldn't do? I feel like if anything, he's WORSE in the games.)

Shadow never even met Elise once, how is he supposed to know about a character he's never met?

There's no double standard here at all. If you don't understand it, fine but you're making false equivalences between two events with no correlation to each other.

 

You're trying to conflate Shadow prioritizing a world ending threat over Eggman versus him disregarding people in danger over settling a petty grudge with Starline. The situations just aren't comparable at all even under the smallest of scrutiny.

 

 

I don't mind Shadow doing morally ambiguous things, but not if they literally make no logical sense. And there's no logic where Shadow, a character defined by fulfilling his wish to a dead friend of protecting the planet, would just disregard when there are people in front of him who are in trouble to satiate his ego. It just doesn't make any sense no matter how you slice it.

I didn't mind him trying to off Eggman, because he made a valid point about Eggman being dangerous. I didn't mind him chewing out Sonic, because once again, his reasoning is logical and sound. Actions motivated by inherent characterization is basically what I'm asking for.

If you don't want to continue this, fine. I just laid out the prevailing reasons why his modern incarnations are so divisive and inconsistent.

[charmsb]

2 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Could you please stop policing the topic because it's mildly inconvenient to you? You made that topic as an option, and I get it with how this thread is about this character, and it will probably get used in the future, but there's no harm in letting this conversation play out. You are not a moderator so you don't get to decide when this ends or moves where you want it so maybe find more constructive ways of redirecting the conversation if you're not interested.

I know. Just posted it again to make sure people saw cuz the original got merged with a reply I already made. A lot of people expressed that they want a separate topic. Obviously I cant make people act a certain way and I dont intend to, just want to make the option clear.

[StaticMania]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You're trying to conflate Shadow prioritizing a world ending threat over Eggman versus him disregarding people in danger over settling a petty grudge with Starline. The situations just aren't comparable at all even under the smallest of scrutiny.

This is important.

The immediate stakes of these conflicts are necessary context.

Beating Starline would not have stopped the avalanche or saved Tails & Rouge, unlike going after & fighting Mephiles (which if he succeeded) would've stopped time from being destroyed a lot earlier.

[thumbs13]

1 hour ago, SkullPirateMike said:

 

Like I said, I don't know Archie Shadow. I know Shadow from the games and Sonic X, and IDW Shadow is him. The only time I've seen Shadow be portrayed inconsistently from this was in Free Riders, where he was more like a Team Rocket member (which was a strange choice, since the Babylon Rogues already kinda fill that role).

I don't think we need another topic (unless other people want to keep talking about it), I wasn't ever really that interested in talking about Shadow. He just keeps coming back! I guess that's sort of his thing, huh?

This is the confusing thing. The Shadow in the games is not written like the one in the comics, maybe on purpose. Forces proves that. I think it's an American thing, but I'm not sure.

[Kuzu]

At the point Flynn started writing Shadow, he was similarly directionless in the games. 06 gave him a good foundation but that's when the character purge began and he just made cameos after that aside from his spin off appearances.

The main culprit here is that Sega just doesn't consider him a major character anymore and have put him on the same level as the rest of the supporting cast. The main characters for the last decade or so have been Sonic, Tails, and Eggman and Sega just aren't interested in fleshing out their supporting cast nowadays. IDW is pretty much reflective of that direction, even if it does at least give the supporting cast occasional moments to shine, it's nothing on par to when they were major characters in their own right.

 

Knuckles got similar complaints when the games stopped focusing on the Master Emerald and he just became another bumbling sidekick. Shadow doesn't feel like a major character anymore and I feel like we're seeing the result of that. His character exists in service to Sonic nowadays as opposed to being a character with established motives and goals separate from Sonic's.

[dudebro1993]

7 hours ago, Jack-al said:

Are we reading the same comic book? I'm not getting that impression to be honest. I respect the opinion obviously but I disagree. In fact the character writing is possibly the best part of the book.

Sonic doesn't look like a comedian unlike the games or Boom. He looks like a compassionate hero who gives too many second chances to his villains. And treats his friends respectfully.

Shadow is very flawed and of course is derailed by mandates, a bit of a different character I think but still recognisable overall.

Tails is not a coward, he is optimistic but cautious and smart. 

Amy is still a fangirl, probably the best written character here, because her passion is moderated by other qualities, she is indepedent, plus a real responsible heroine who is tired and stressed and needs a break.

Silver is a goofy optimistic overpowered hero, who saved Sonic's butt plenty of times.

Eggman is an egomaniac, a childish mastermind who doesn't build his plan carefully.

Vector is a heart of gold hero. And so are Charmy and Espio, really loyal to each other.

Rouge is queen, sassy, flirty, apparently a dumb beauty but actually smart.  A bit of a babysitter to Shadow and Omega.

Knuckles is MIA I agree, but still stubborn,  easily angry, and loyal to Angel Island. 

Omega retains his wrecking personality, Blaze is still perfectly written too.

Cream is a real heroine, very brave and kind. I actually don't like her outside of IDW eh. Gemerl is a bit of a dick I have to say.

Orbot and Cubot are great as well. 

Zavok is another gem here, he is real brutal, smart, tactical, and powerful. I also liked Zeena.

Metal Sonic of course is a silent killer machine and a minion with no personality,  I can't say much but Neo was a great villain IMO.

And this is just how they handle the games cast. Comic originals is another batch of wonderful characters.

Eggman has regressed since SA2, he nearly killed Sonic! He's been useless since then, never a threat. 

Sonic is boring tbh. He's not a failed comedian but just an average hero, nothing unique unfortunately. 

Like I said, Tails is written better than in Forces (and Unleashed) but he's just so dull, he barely does anything. He's always at Sonic's side, denying him the chance to be independent like in SA1 and SA2.

I'm still sticking with my point about Amy, I find her uninteresting. I see why many people like her new side, But I don't.

They ruined Silver by making him a pathetic fanboy of Whisper. I hate how they made him goofy, it's so childish. He turned from a badass to a simp in the comics.

I couldn't care less about the Chaotix, Orbot and Cubot.

I agree with you about Rouge. I just wish they used her more tbh.

Omega and Blaze are great, I concur. 

I also agree with you about Cream.

The Deadly Six are basically Team Rocket, absolutely useless and used as cannon fodder. 

No opinion about Metal Sonic.

 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

He turned from a badass to a simp in the comics.

Silver was never a badass. Dude got kicked in the head by Shadow in '06 and buried in a pile of trash in Gens.

[dudebro1993]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Silver was never a badass. Dude got kicked in the head by Shadow in '06 and buried in a pile of trash in Gens.

At least he wasn't a pathetic fanboy. Everything he did was for the future but for the wrong reasons. 

[thumbs13]

21 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

At least he wasn't a pathetic fanboy. Everything he did was for the future but for the wrong reasons. 

Did you miss the part where he saved the world from Zombies? I know this book goes on break sometimes, but that was pretty recent.

[SBR2]

29 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

He turned from a badass to a simp in the comics.

Using the word "simp" makes it clear you shouldn't be taken even remotely seriously. 

[dudebro1993]

2 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Did you miss the part where he saved the world from Zombies? I know this book goes on break sometimes, but that was pretty recent.

Fair enough, he did one badass thing. he's still a pathetic fanboy of Whisper. 

1 minute ago, SBR2 said:

Using the word "simp" makes it clear you shouldn't be taken even remotely seriously. 

It's correct though, he's still fawning over her. 

[StaticMania]

Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is definitely a fine concept

But it sure didn't make Silver a cool character

He was just a "worse version of Shadow" in terms of execution

An idiot who didn't question anything, because he believed it was right...except Silver had an actual opportunity to  question things because time travel.

That's just motivation though, in regards to characterization; recently he's been like a version of Trunks from Dragon Ball who can actually appreciate living the present and is actually an endearing dork because of that

[Red Hot Jack]

49 minutes ago, dudebro1993 said:

Eggman has regressed since SA2, he nearly killed Sonic! He's been useless since then, never a threat. 

Sonic is boring tbh. He's not a failed comedian but just an average hero, nothing unique unfortunately. 

Like I said, Tails is written better than in Forces (and Unleashed) but he's just so dull, he barely does anything. He's always at Sonic's side, denying him the chance to be independent like in SA1 and SA2.

I'm still sticking with my point about Amy, I find her uninteresting. I see why many people like her new side, But I don't.

They ruined Silver by making him a pathetic fanboy of Whisper. I hate how they made him goofy, it's so childish. He turned from a badass to a simp in the comics.

I couldn't care less about the Chaotix, Orbot and Cubot.

I agree with you about Rouge. I just wish they used her more tbh.

Omega and Blaze are great, I concur. 

I also agree with you about Cream.

The Deadly Six are basically Team Rocket, absolutely useless and used as cannon fodder. 

No opinion about Metal Sonic.

Okay this is actually fair, a bit reductive but still good opinions. 

It is case by case for each character at the end of the day. But I do think this is the least of the book's problems, like... it can't do much with its game cast, no development or hardly, they seem to find excamotages to dance around the mandates, Ian has been doing that since Archie. Lack of lasting consequences,  also because of mandates.

To be honest, I have always wanted a game like comic for Sonic, something that would make sense of the bullcrap that is the game canon, except with Sega it is basically impossible. So the comic is full of inconsistencies,  this is the opposite problem I had with Archie, that had its own identity but it derailed too much into romance, an excessive lot of original characters and weird drama, so I used to dislike the preboot and classify it into a "weird derailed" continuity. We also have a small cast of villains compared to Archie that had the Egg Bosses and other non-Eggman Empire foes. 

I still vastly prefer IDW Sonic book over Archie (I didn't read StC) but yeah, enough comparisons, they are so different the only thing they have in common are Ian Flynn, Eva Stanley and the artists, and a tight continuity.

[SkullPirateMike]

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

You're trying to conflate Shadow prioritizing a world ending threat over Eggman versus him disregarding people in danger over settling a petty grudge with Starline. The situations just aren't comparable at all even under the smallest of scrutiny.

He wasn't prioritizing a world-ending threat over Eggman, when he says he's not interested in helping Rouge stop Eggman, Mephiles hasn't even been released yet. Eggman's plan is in motion and Shadow is disinterested. He's not disregarding people in danger because there's a bigger threat, he's disregarding people in danger because he doesn't care, the same way he did in his own game's opening before Black Doom appears. "I don't have time for these humans."

It takes the bigger threat of Mephiles for him to become interested, but that wasn't a shift in focus from a smaller threat to a bigger one, it was a shift from being uninterested in helping to being interested. The situations are comparable because, consistently throughout the games, Shadow hasn't been too fussed about the safety of random strangers. It's gotta be someone he knows or the literal entire world at stake for him to lift a finger.