Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[dbzfan7]

I'm just too biased and blinded by my zeti hate. Honestly anything that gets them out of my sight sooner the better. So I don't mind Starline taking their place as I at least have an interest in him.

[Kuzu]

This is just my personal opinion mind you, but I feel like Ian and Evan kind of have their hands tied with Starline; his entire character is built on being an adoring Eggman fanboy at first, and I feel like that's when he was at this best, since it kept the focus solely on Eggman and gave him someone to bounce off of that actually LIKED him. 

But when they had a falling out and Starline decided to strike out on his own as a villain, it started to highlight some problems I feel. Because his entire character was built on being an Eggman fanboy he....really doesn't have much to stand out from the Doc. His lair is an old Eggman base, and he uses Eggman's discarded tech for his own. He really does just come off as "Eggman-Lite", even down to having similar flaws as his idol of being too arrogant and small minded for his own good. Him breaking away from Eggman should have been the point when he would find his own footing, but he's still relying mostly on being an Eggman fanboy to succeed. The Tri-Core is an interesting addition to him, but he's barely used it. 

And I honestly think Ian and Evan are really reluctant to let him overshadow Eggman as a bigger threat, so he always just feels lesser by comparison, and I think this problem effects the Zeti too. Its a problem that was somewhat apparent in Archie's later years, where the writers had to establish Eggman as the top dog villain, but it meant that the other villains couldn't really cause too much trouble. Like how Phage was an interesting new addition...only to reveal that she's under Eggman's employment. 

The Zeti have this issue too; probably because Sega will not allow it, but this arc didn't really establish anything new or interesting about the Zeti at all. They're just....doing the same exact things they've always been doing, so it makes the claims 
"they're serious" now fall on deaf ears lol. 

 

 

Maybe its a mandate from Sega, but they honestly need to be willing to go outside of their comfort zone a bit more. As mentioned, I think this Arc would have been better served if it focused on Tangle and Whisper against the Zeti, since there's really nothing gained from watching Sonic beat up on them again. Sonic has fought and beaten them before, so there wasn't exactly anything gained from watching that again here; like Zavok put up a BIT more of a fight, but ultimately nothing was really progressed as far as plot is concerned and it just makes me feel like what was even the point?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Jack-al said:

It's fair. I still prefer him being a dorky hero than yet another edgy rival, he was pretty bad at that too. Another interesting thing is Silver is overpowered, I'm not okay with that but I guess it comes in handy when he's a hero, like during the Metal Virus.

He generally balances it out better than Shadow and to an extent Blaze does at least.

1 hour ago, Jack-al said:

As for this arc, I agree, it's so boring just like the arc before, sadly, I preferred the Zeti in the Metal Virus too, they were handled better, yeah they may have killed quite a bit here but still no major damage to Sonic and the Restoration. You guys want more simple plots but IMO the main story is a lot more interesting, Belle/Eggman/Starline for me, that's what I think, the Deadly Six were left in the world for no reason, it's redundant to have them back already just to do nothing with them. I would rather take the girls in camping arc to be honest, that sounds like a fun adventure with nice interactions like the Chao Races arc.

As I said, their mostly simple character would've worked better either in individual simple stories or in a more dedicatedly complex story. This arc sorta tries to have it both ways and ends up with relatively little to show for either.

41 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Ironically, I'd argue that the whole push to throw Starline in as the 'secret final boss' of these arcs magnifies an issue Ian has ALWAYS had with his writing. He's always had pacing issues with trying to push things into four issues per arc - and these arcs are arguably even worse because he's now trying to push the actual story into THREE issues, while holding onto a fourth issue for Starline, and even Evan fell into this pitfall. These stories, despite having potential end up puttering out into the bare minimum because they can't even get a full arc to breath, mainly because they have to dedicate an issue to shoving Starline in haphazardly. 

So here's our big supposed Zeti arc that's supposed to be a big game-changer where the Zeti decide enough is enough and will have no mercy on Sonic, and it gets relegated to THREE issues - one of which had to be dedicated solely to the 'hunt' part of the arc, and even at that - several pages per issue ALSO has to be taken out to set up Starline for the final issue as well. So our big Zeti Hunt frankly could probably be closer to two issues and some change, with their psychological angle being literally 'they think we attack here but we attack HERE instead", and the big 'we're not playing games anymore' fight being literally 'lets destroy this world for the umpteenth time' and Sonic kicking all of their asses single-handedly until Zavok decides to stop standing around. 

It's honestly really frustrating. You can argue that this is set-up for Imposter Syndrome and Issue 50 all you like, and I'd still argue this is poor pacing that's ruining arcs with genuine potential to give Starline an (IMO, of course) unearned 'big threat' status by #50. I don't dislike the ideas they want to go with Starline, I think the idea of Eggman lackey who's disenchanted with him and wants to rise above his failures is good, but I honestly think the execution has been, and continues to be bad. He's not really displayed or showcased any attributes that make him better than Eggman, he doesn't make much, if any improvements to his plans and schemes, and he does a lot of silly things, and we're mostly just TOLD that he's improving, when really it feels more like luck and the Tri-Core saving his tail every time. 

I just thinks it's really lame that other villains have to suffer for the sake of Starline's set-up. The Zeti's big arc involves them having even more bare basic motivations than their initial intro to IDW (Wanting to enslave the Zombots and use them for a variety of personality-based goals VS just wanting to destroy the planet for the hell of it), and putting up even less of a fight for most of it than previous fights involving them, and their attempt to make the Zeti appear intelligent comes off as ridiculously stupid as well for how basic their scheme is. It just feels heavily rushed and basic.

I'll save my thoughts on Starline and simply point out that actually writing intelligent/introverted characters seems to be a semicommon struggle even nowadays. 

I recall this being a point of debate with Sally too, that she tended to rush in and make bullheaded decisions at times for someone who was supposed to be a strategic leader. But the thing with her though is that was half of her original characterization: it sorta got emphasized over time that she is careful, prudent, and logical as well as snarky, but she was also about as arrogant and at times even competitive as Sonic himself. Because she was ultimately supposed to be similar to Sonic with an inherently different approach, her jumping the gun sometimes or getting overly emotional could be expected if the circumstances are personal or dire enough. I know some people argue that Shadow was always a similar case, but either way it's important to note that he was also more impersonal in characterization and thus his forcefulness generally comes across differently outside of IDW. 

Starline, though, wasn't really set up to be the same sort of character in personality or effectiveness though. As dapper, gentile, and aspiring as he may be, he was also meticulous, tireless, and refined when it came to getting things done. This is the guy who visibly enjoyed seeing the inner workings of Eggman's operations up front, questioned however briefly is not running more thorough tests on the metal virus, and later had a quiet conversation of lamentation with Orbot about how he was inspired by Eggman's conquests to become a great scientist. This is the same guy who was flabbergasted when Eggman admitted he didn't make a cure, reflected upon Neo Metal's behavior as being copied from somewhere, made a backup plan for his Zeti backup plan by getting a Cacophonic Conch, and it was finally pushed to leave Eggman when he suggested using the Warp Topaz glove he so thoroughly tested & was scarred by on such a large scale.

To then have him come back making such egregious mistakes as to try logging into an Eggman base using his old password, leave a video log of his plan where someone could quickly hack it, and even falling asleep with two known treacherous killers around is a bit much. It was meant to be a part of his arc in that miniseries but there was still a better ways to handle it.

 

 

 

In other news, that's another question I asked before that this is actually pretty relevant to: what is even his game plan going forward? Even ignoring why a fastidious fop like him would want to a psychopunk and an emo as company, his whole goal thus far has mainly been to create Surge and Kit. And while the power cores and the and the device is for using them are good thing to have, it is still not immediately clear how this is supposed to allow him to take over the world going forward. Primarily because it's not even clear what his plan is.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

This is just my personal opinion mind you, but I feel like Ian and Evan kind of have their hands tied with Starline; his entire character is built on being an adoring Eggman fanboy at first, and I feel like that's when he was at this best, since it kept the focus solely on Eggman and gave him someone to bounce off of that actually LIKED him. 

But when they had a falling out and Starline decided to strike out on his own as a villain, it started to highlight some problems I feel. Because his entire character was built on being an Eggman fanboy he....really doesn't have much to stand out from the Doc. His lair is an old Eggman base, and he uses Eggman's discarded tech for his own. He really does just come off as "Eggman-Lite", even down to having similar flaws as his idol of being too arrogant and small minded for his own good. Him breaking away from Eggman should have been the point when he would find his own footing, but he's still relying mostly on being an Eggman fanboy to succeed. The Tri-Core is an interesting addition to him, but he's barely used it. 

 

There's also the matter of where his particular nickname I've seen popup for him comes in.

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

And I honestly think Ian and Evan are really reluctant to let him overshadow Eggman as a bigger threat, so he always just feels lesser by comparison, and I think this problem effects the Zeti too. Its a problem that was somewhat apparent in Archie's later years, where the writers had to establish Eggman as the top dog villain, but it meant that the other villains couldn't really cause too much trouble. Like how Phage was an interesting new addition...only to reveal that she's under Eggman's employment. 

 

 

Maybe its a mandate from Sega, but they honestly need to be willing to go outside of their comfort zone a bit more. As mentioned, I think this Arc would have been better served if it focused on Tangle and Whisper against the Zeti, since there's really nothing gained from watching Sonic beat up on them again. Sonic has fought and beaten them before, so there wasn't exactly anything gained from watching that again here; like Zavok put up a BIT more of a fight, but ultimately nothing was really progressed as far as plot is concerned and it just makes me feel like what was even the point?

Phage and while we're at it Infinite were always kind of confusing on that matter because they overall look and act nothing like you'd expect an Eggman flunky to be.

[Kuzu]

Its like Sega are so afraid of getting complaints about Eggman being overshadowed again, but now they're not even trying to establish other villains as a result. 

[DabigRG]

Oh, they're trying to establish new villains--they're just wussing at halfway through doing much anything with them 

Wonder what Rangers is gonna bait and switch

[Kuzu]

It honestly makes me skeptical of what they're going to do with Surge and Kit; are they gonna actually be fully realized characters or are they gonna get their 15 minutes of fame before they're punted off to the background. 

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Its like Sega are so afraid of getting complaints about Eggman being overshadowed again, but now they're not even trying to establish other villains as a result. 

I mean, you can have other villains; the complaint was more about how Eggman was mishandled during these "new villain" plots a lot of the time - as well as the sheer volume of these stories. We were just getting one after another after another, with barely any time for Eggman to shine as the main antagonist aside from the occasional handheld title.

Other villains being used wasn't inherently bad for Eggman. I'd put it like this:

The Bad:
- Heroes: Stuck in jail for the entire game
- Shadow: Largely a non-entity and even "killed" in several endings - not even in a cool way like in a huge explosion, but cowering helplessly under his own mech's wreckage
- Rivals: Trapped in card for entire game

The Good:
- Adventure: Still very competent and still utilized well throughout the game
- Adventure 2: Playable character and still a competent villain in his own right
- Advance 3: Playable against Gemerl, the final boss
- 06: Still honestly a competent villain and the main antagonist of Sonic's story.
- Unleashed: Defeated Super Sonic and still established Eggmanland despite Dark Gaia being the main villain
- Rivals 2: Actively helping take down Eggman Nega by directing Metal Sonic and Shadow

 

As much as I complained about Eggman getting sidelined by other villains, I was mainly complaining about appearances like Heroes and Shadow. The other games handled Eggman a lot better, and as individual stories each of them wouldn't have been too egregious to Eggman. The issue was that, for a while in the 2000s, Eggman just kept getting sidelined over and over, and pretty much never got to be the main villain of the home console 3D games.

That has since been rectified, and I think if they actually find a balance now - and frequently release some games with Eggman as the big bad and some games with someone else, I (and other Eggman fans) wouldn't mind so much. Just don't do another "entire decade of zero home-console main-villain appearances."

[DabigRG]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It honestly makes me skeptical of what they're going to do with Surge and Kit; are they gonna actually be fully realized characters or are they gonna get their 15 minutes of fame before they're punted off to the background. 

Oh, they'll probably stick around. If only because they were supposed to be with Starline to begin with.

But yeah, the question of how effective or relevant they'll be on a scale of B to D is another matter.

 

[Kuzu]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I mean, you can have other villains; the complaint was more about how Eggman was mishandled during these "new villain" plots a lot of the time - as well as the sheer volume of these stories. We were just getting one after another after another, with barely any time for Eggman to shine as the main antagonist aside from the occasional handheld title.

Other villains being used wasn't inherently bad for Eggman. I'd put it like this:

The Bad:
- Heroes: Stuck in jail for the entire game
- Shadow: Largely a non-entity and even "killed" in several endings - not even in a cool way like in a huge explosion, but cowering helplessly under his own mech's wreckage
- Rivals: Trapped in card for entire game

The Good:
- Adventure: Still very competent and still utilized well throughout the game
- Adventure 2: Playable character and still a competent villain in his own right
- Advance 3: Playable against Gemerl, the final boss
- 06: Still honestly a competent villain and the main antagonist of Sonic's story.
- Unleashed: Defeated Super Sonic and still established Eggmanland despite Dark Gaia being the main villain
- Rivals 2: Actively helping take down Eggman Nega by directing Metal Sonic and Shadow

 

As much as I complained about Eggman getting sidelined by other villains, I was mainly complaining about appearances like Heroes and Shadow. The other games handled Eggman a lot better, and as individual stories each of them wouldn't have been too egregious to Eggman. The issue was that, for a while in the 2000s, Eggman just kept getting sidelined over and over, and pretty much never got to be the main villain of the home console 3D games.

That has since been rectified, and I think if they actually find a balance now - and frequently release some games with Eggman as the big bad and some games with someone else, I (and other Eggman fans) wouldn't mind so much. Just don't do another "entire decade of zero home-console main-villain appearances."

It depends on the story for me; if the story isn't about Eggman, then I really don't mind if he's pushed to the side for someone else. I never really cared too much how he was being treated because of that, because the games were never about him to begin with.

But fine, I get it. Gotta promote the brand and not having Eggman or Sonic in some type of major role in a Sonic product would cause some fans to lose their minds apparently. 

 

I dunno man, I always felt some of the best hero or villain moments were when they were able to break away from the standard "Sonic vs. Eggman" mold. Like, I get it. It got repetitive and to the point when the two central characters in the series were being pushed further and further to the side, but at the same time, we also got interesting build up and pay off for some plot threads either because of the fact they didn't have to be constrained. 

Like yea, balance is needed, but every now and then the series SHOULD buck its trends, if only to tell a more original story every now and then. We've been getting Sonic vs. Eggman for 30 years, having something else once in a while isn't and shouldn't be treated like a terrible thing. But because of those complaints, the series is just stuck under the same perpetual wheel with nothing changing or establishing anything new. 

I'm just bored man. I want some long term storytelling and actual emotional pay off, but we haven't gotten that since the Metal Virus saga and that was last year and marred down by delays.  

[Dr. Mechano]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like yea, balance is needed, but every now and then the series SHOULD buck its trends, if only to tell a more original story every now and then. We've been getting Sonic vs. Eggman for 30 years, having something else once in a while isn't and shouldn't be treated like a terrible thing.

"Once in a while" being the optimal phrasing.

1998-2010 was a drought of Eggman main villainy. Dimps pretty much kept his "main antagonist" rep afloat during this period, 'cause Sonic Team sure wasn't doing it. Like, 12 of those 30 years were (a handful of handheld games aside) not really focused on Sonic vs. Eggman. Which again, sometimes, is fine. I actually like plenty of games where Eggman's in a different role; SA2 being one of my favorites.

Like, I don't want to get into obsessive bean-counting here, where I'm like "Okay, Eggman's the big bad of this game, someone else can be in this game" and so on. It doesn't have to bounce back and forth and it doesn't have to be exactly even. I just want Eggman to be the main villain often enough that he's still recognizably Sonic's archenemy.

I dunno man. "Over-correcting" is a recurring problem in this series. Sonic Team isn't great about hitting a nice middleground between extremes, whether it's based on tone, number of playable characters, or who the villains are.

[StaticMania]

They have to hit both extremes first

And we're still in the midst of the other

[Kuzu]

Overcorrection is indeed an issue, as well as how Sonic Team's general lack of quality control when it comes to the series. But at the same time, you can't really tell me Sonic fans don't have a real issue when it comes to being overly vocal and critical about perceived changes to the series they don't feel are "appropriate." This is extremely common with long running fanbases; the likes of Star Wars fans, TMNT fans, and the like are just as bad as Sonic. 

But the difference is; their stuff is actually GOOD (relatively speaking), so good that the complainers are, rightfully, ignored. But Sonic products are so very rarely good that it only fuels the complaining even further, and Sega only validates that bullshit by basing their changes on these complaints. 

I guarantee you that if this series actually put out GOOD shit, without being hounded by executive mandates, the haters would have no leg to stand on at all. Any company would know this, but Sega are the dumbasses that feed into their vocal fanbase's stupidity by doing shit like splitting the Classic and Modern worlds and barring respective elements from being used. 

 

[Mauro Fonseca]

Not to say you have to like Starline or anything, moreso just something that confuses me about a lot of the discourse against him I see.

 

Starline was very clearly always intended to turn against Eggman, you guys know this, right? Pretty much as soon as his second appearance he's going "huh why's Eggman doing this? Oh must be because he truly is a genius", it was clear from the start the direction was going to go in "he sours on Eggman"- the fresh twist was that he does it in more of a spurned lover way of "Eggman's brilliant but held back by himself, I'll prove by example how good he could be even if that means I'm fighting him for now".

 

Again, you're free to dislike that direction, I'm just confused by how so much of the discourse I see treats it like "Starline was great in the first year, then Ian decided to change him and he's bad now" like the direction wasn't obvious early on

[Dr. Mechano]

Yeah, Starline is a fresh twist on the "Eggman traitor" type of villain because he's betraying Eggman "for Eggman's own good," more or less. He still respects Eggman and ultimately wants Eggman to succeed.

It's an interesting direction for the character and I honestly do like him.

Understandable that he's not to everyone's tastes though.

[Wraith]

I don't have a problem with him. He's not my favorite but he's been such a small part of each story arc that I don't really get why so many people have been talking about him honestly. His arc has been completely telegraphed and...fine, so far? No curveballs I guess but not everything needs that.

I guess he could use more differentiating him from Eggman but he's going to be using organic weapons instead of robots so that'll change soon.

[Red Hot Jack]

It's pretty much up to people's taste. For example, I thought Starline was wasted as a Snively-like minion, so yes, I didn't exactly like him in season 2 (Metal Virus), I really do prefer what Ian and Evan are plotting now. I just think that maybe people get tired quickly of these characters, so they were curious when he debuted but now feel like they are the only characters/villains that appear, there is not much after all, it's mostly Eggman, Neo Metal Sonic, Zavok and Dr. Starline as major villains, plus as minor baddies Rough, Tumble, Mimic, the occasional Zeti-fillers and the Rogues who are sometimes rivals and sometimes allies.

This will change with Surge and Kit, I agree... hopefully.

[DabigRG]

7 minutes ago, Mauro Fonseca said:

Not to say you have to like Starline or anything, moreso just something that confuses me about a lot of the discourse against him I see.

 

Starline was very clearly always intended to turn against Eggman, you guys know this, right? Pretty much as soon as his second appearance he's going "huh why's Eggman doing this? Oh must be because he truly is a genius", it was clear from the start the direction was going to go in "he sours on Eggman"- the fresh twist was that he does it in more of a spurned lover way of "Eggman's brilliant but held back by himself, I'll prove by example how good he could be even if that means I'm fighting him for now".

 

Again, you're free to dislike that direction, I'm just confused by how so much of the discourse I see treats it like "Starline was great in the first year, then Ian decided to change him and he's bad now" like the direction wasn't obvious early on

That's the truly interesting thing, Mauro: people actually wanted this. If you go back to discussions from around the start of Sonic's infection, you'll see comments to the effect of, "Starline's simping for Eggy is neat and all, but when is he gonna dump him and strike out as a villain in his own right?" 

The true source of the complaints are not necessarily that he went the way he did, but how he's been handled ever since and sometimes just how often we see him doing it. 

Of course, there were people who were more than happy with the way he was and can't stand that he even decided to go behind his back in the first place, but that's its own part of the debate.

[Kuzu]

It should be noted that I was only responding to the topic at hand and giving my own thoughts on the matter; as it stands, I really don't mind Starline all that much, even if I do agree with some of the complaints here that he could be better. 

It really is just down to personal tastes it seems like; some like him and some don't, which is uh....pretty much a Sonic character's MO at this point. You either like them or you don't. 

[Mauro Fonseca]

Oh yeah, again, not saying you have to like him or how the story's done or whatever. Just that "Starline betrays Eggman" felt to me very obviously telegraphed from the start, so the discourse that treats it like it's a sudden shift in direction for the character after a year genuinely has me going "what?"

[Kuzu]

Its more like, I enjoyed his character more when he was just an Eggman fanboy and this is only because he hasn't exactly interested me since striking out. I knew the betrayal was coming and was interested in what they were going to go for with it, but so far he hasn't exactly changed in a way that really matters to me, so it's just left me a bit ambivalent towards him. 

 

I didn't really care that about him showing up in Chao races or this arc personally, but it seems like it's grating on other people as it goes on

[Wraith]

There's old concept art of him where he looks more directly like a Frankenstein sendup. I think this "direction" where he's doing his own thing with his own organic inventions was always the plan, and the decision to push Surge and Kit's debuts waaaaay the fuck back made them decide to play the long game with that part of him. Focus on the game stuff first while you sloooowly wheel out this new stuff.

I think the decision to play the long game for 3 years has gotten people tired of the inbetween phase, but he should be pretty cool once his "rise" is complete, I think. We'll finally have an alternative villain team that doesn't have terrible designs and motives.

[IWriteAlright]

It should have taken much longer. To attribute  his debut to the build up  seems strange, as the audience for all we know he could have been eggman's lackey for another few years. His arc starts once he gets outed near the end of the zombat arc. When you consider that I don't think its been long enough.

Not differentiating himself enough for eggman is one of two huge problems for me. Because I like eggman not just because he has cool robots, but because he's a fun character. He's a fun to have around and to have speak on things. He's a very bombastic guy, big robots, big death stars, big eldritch horrors big speeches. From what I gathered starline is a lot more meticulous. While eggman is very similar to sonic where he doesn't think that far ahead, it seemed like starline was supposed to be the opposite. More calculating , cold and measured. Taking his time to analyze his potential victims so he may take them out in the most effective and cruel ways. He is even a hypnotist which allows him to pry the info out of people. When sonic first meets him and he just gives sonic a run down of himself I got excited. Oh wow someone who could give fun negative takes on these characters from a calculated selfish place. A very sassy character I thought. In reality he doesn't do much of that at all.
There are bits and pieces like when he stole rouge and tails, and you even get instances like zavok analyzing him but he doesn't ever actually do anything with his characterization within his interactions that really make him that fun of a character. If he stays that way surge and kit will end up a lot more interesting than he is and that's an issue for personally.

Another issue I have is he doesn't seem to know eggman that well? I know that's part of the point right? No one knows what the eggman is thinking at any given moment. But it goes beyond that, there are lapses that makes it feel like he was never that big of a fan at all? Which is his whole thing. Remember when he and shadow encountered eachother, shouldn't he  know who shadow is? Like correct if i'm wrong, but Gerald is part of the reason that eggman is eggman. He's your inspirations inspiration. He built organic, multiple times,  life something eggman was never able to do, and you have specialty in bioweapons. You have been through his computer files, his notes. How don't you know this? The arc approaching is about him seemingly creating organic life in some fashion, and he don't know anything about Gerald? A walking, talking, everliving bioweapon that can smack the guy who regularly stops your idol should be a gold mine biogenetic material, but he doesn't even react

These lapses in characterization to me speak to a very rushed character arc. A character racing to the finish line and skipping over slower storytelling that might have taken time to fill in those lapses in characterization and build a stronger more unique character.

If i'm being honest i'm a little disappointing. I was very excited for him. I thought he was going to be a more meticulous " I have files on everyone " type character. Maybe the upcoming arc fixes this, or maybe that was the point. His downfall is that he isn't as meticulous and as smart as he thinks he is and i'm over thinking some things that will pan out in the future. Regardless, for now i'm left wanting.

[Red Hot Jack]

8 hours ago, IWriteAlright said:

It should have taken much longer. To attribute  his debut to the build up  seems strange, as the audience for all we know he could have been eggman's lackey for another few years. His arc starts once he gets outed near the end of the zombat arc. When you consider that I don't think its been long enough.

Not differentiating himself enough for eggman is one of two huge problems for me. Because I like eggman not just because he has cool robots, but because he's a fun character. He's a fun to have around and to have speak on things. He's a very bombastic guy, big robots, big death stars, big eldritch horrors big speeches. From what I gathered starline is a lot more meticulous. While eggman is very similar to sonic where he doesn't think that far ahead, it seemed like starline was supposed to be the opposite. More calculating , cold and measured. Taking his time to analyze his potential victims so he may take them out in the most effective and cruel ways. He is even a hypnotist which allows him to pry the info out of people. When sonic first meets him and he just gives sonic a run down of himself I got excited. Oh wow someone who could give fun negative takes on these characters from a calculated selfish place. A very sassy character I thought. In reality he doesn't do much of that at all.
There are bits and pieces like when he stole rouge and tails, and you even get instances like zavok analyzing him but he doesn't ever actually do anything with his characterization within his interactions that really make him that fun of a character. If he stays that way surge and kit will end up a lot more interesting than he is and that's an issue for personally.

Another issue I have is he doesn't seem to know eggman that well? I know that's part of the point right? No one knows what the eggman is thinking at any given moment. But it goes beyond that, there are lapses that makes it feel like he was never that big of a fan at all? Which is his whole thing. Remember when he and shadow encountered eachother, shouldn't he  know who shadow is? Like correct if i'm wrong, but Gerald is part of the reason that eggman is eggman. He's your inspirations inspiration. He built organic, multiple times,  life something eggman was never able to do, and you have specialty in bioweapons. You have been through his computer files, his notes. How don't you know this? The arc approaching is about him seemingly creating organic life in some fashion, and he don't know anything about Gerald? A walking, talking, everliving bioweapon that can smack the guy who regularly stops your idol should be a gold mine biogenetic material, but he doesn't even react

These lapses in characterization to me speak to a very rushed character arc. A character racing to the finish line and skipping over slower storytelling that might have taken time to fill in those lapses in characterization and build a stronger more unique character.

If i'm being honest i'm a little disappointing. I was very excited for him. I thought he was going to be a more meticulous " I have files on everyone " type character. Maybe the upcoming arc fixes this, or maybe that was the point. His downfall is that he isn't as meticulous and as smart as he thinks he is and i'm over thinking some things that will pan out in the future. Regardless, for now i'm left wanting.

1. Disagreed. It's not rushed, it developed quite well in my opinion, he was a lackey enough to realise Eggman can't think thorough his plans, that he's childish and incompetent, etc. they've had their fight, he betrayed Eggman because he wanted to fix and save his plan to control the virus. He was dropped immediately after by Eggman and wanted to regain his trust, then in his miniseries he led his own team and Zavok made him realise he is worth to stand on his own, he doesn't need Eggman, and now he wants to conquer the world for himself. It didn't happen too quickly, it was like 20 issues, it's a lot and it wasn't too fast or too slow. Ian has weird pacing issues, I agree but this is a great arc, and if you wanted Starline to stay as a lackey... what a boring arc. We are criticizing the book for being too slow in the current saga.

2. Starline is more of a planner than Eggman, that's it, he's not more cruel, more lethal, he isn't necessarily better and I think that's a good thing, I don't want an overpowered Eggman to make him feel redundant, they are both masterminds who are flawed antagonists, if they weren't flawed at all there would be no way to beat them, right?

So I don't understand these complaints, I respect them but still, the only real ones I can think of are: the plot is not moving, or barely, because they are adding pointless filler stuff like the Zeti or the tower (maybe that will come back into play?), instead of focusing on the arc's real central characters like Starline, I understand the complaint "he's overused, in every arc" but it's right now his big time as a main villain, so IMO it is justified, and definitely more interesting than anything else going on in the comic right now...

[DabigRG]

As I was going to say days ago, Starline is still objectively the best of the original characters and one of the better characters in IDW in general. But that doesn't mean his road has continued to be smooth or that his engine isn't frequently risking overheating.

As grateful as I think many of us are for most of what he's helped bring to the comic, we'd also be moreso if we could truly enjoy those things in peace for a while.

14 hours ago, Wraith said:

There's old concept art of him where he looks more directly like a Frankenstein sendup. I think this "direction" where he's doing his own thing with his own organic inventions was always the plan, and the decision to push Surge and Kit's debuts waaaaay the fuck back made them decide to play the long game with that part of him. Focus on the game stuff first while you sloooowly wheel out this new stuff.

I think the decision to play the long game for 3 years has gotten people tired of the inbetween phase, but he should be pretty cool once his "rise" is complete, I think. We'll finally have an alternative villain team that doesn't have terrible designs and motives.

* 's monster, you mean

 

Which kinda makes you wonder if all three were supposed to be cyborgs and/or artificial Mobians originally.

11 hours ago, IWriteAlright said:

It should have taken much longer. To attribute  his debut to the build up  seems strange, as the audience for all we know he could have been eggman's lackey for another few years. His arc starts once he gets outed near the end of the zombat arc. When you consider that I don't think its been long enough.

Not differentiating himself enough for eggman is one of two huge problems for me. Because I like eggman not just because he has cool robots, but because he's a fun character. He's a fun to have around and to have speak on things. He's a very bombastic guy, big robots, big death stars, big eldritch horrors big speeches. From what I gathered starline is a lot more meticulous. While eggman is very similar to sonic where he doesn't think that far ahead, it seemed like starline was supposed to be the opposite. More calculating , cold and measured. Taking his time to analyze his potential victims so he may take them out in the most effective and cruel ways. He is even a hypnotist which allows him to pry the info out of people. When sonic first meets him and he just gives sonic a run down of himself I got excited. Oh wow someone who could give fun negative takes on these characters from a calculated selfish place. A very sassy character I thought. In reality he doesn't do much of that at all.
There are bits and pieces like when he stole rouge and tails, and you even get instances like zavok analyzing him but he doesn't ever actually do anything with his characterization within his interactions that really make him that fun of a character. If he stays that way surge and kit will end up a lot more interesting than he is and that's an issue for personally.

Another issue I have is he doesn't seem to know eggman that well? I know that's part of the point right? No one knows what the eggman is thinking at any given moment. But it goes beyond that, there are lapses that makes it feel like he was never that big of a fan at all? Which is his whole thing. Remember when he and shadow encountered eachother, shouldn't he  know who shadow is? Like correct if i'm wrong, but Gerald is part of the reason that eggman is eggman. He's your inspirations inspiration. He built organic, multiple times,  life something eggman was never able to do, and you have specialty in bioweapons. You have been through his computer files, his notes. How don't you know this? The arc approaching is about him seemingly creating organic life in some fashion, and he don't know anything about Gerald? A walking, talking, everliving bioweapon that can smack the guy who regularly stops your idol should be a gold mine biogenetic material, but he doesn't even react

These lapses in characterization to me speak to a very rushed character arc. A character racing to the finish line and skipping over slower storytelling that might have taken time to fill in those lapses in characterization and build a stronger more unique character.

If i'm being honest i'm a little disappointing. I was very excited for him. I thought he was going to be a more meticulous " I have files on everyone " type character. Maybe the upcoming arc fixes this, or maybe that was the point. His downfall is that he isn't as meticulous and as smart as he thinks he is and i'm over thinking some things that will pan out in the future. Regardless, for now i'm left wanting.

So a little less roboticist and more psychologist?

Also, funnily enough, those traits remind me of when we speculated he may be from the future in part because of how he compares to Dr. Nega's original characterization.

2 hours ago, Jack-al said:

1. Disagreed. It's not rushed, it developed quite well in my opinion, he was a lackey enough to realise Eggman can't think thorough his plans, that he's childish and incompetent, etc. they've had their fight, he betrayed Eggman because he wanted to fix and save his plan to control the virus. He was dropped immediately after by Eggman and wanted to regain his trust, then in his miniseries he led his own team and Zavok made him realise he is worth to stand on his own, he doesn't need Eggman, and now he wants to conquer the world for himself. It didn't happen too quickly, it was like 20 issues, it's a lot and it wasn't too fast or too slow. Ian has weird pacing issues, I agree but this is a great arc, and if you wanted Starline to stay as a lackey... what a boring arc. We are criticizing the book for being too slow in the current saga.

2. Starline is more of a planner than Eggman, that's it, he's not more cruel, more lethal, he isn't necessarily better and I think that's a good thing, I don't want an overpowered Eggman to make him feel redundant, they are both masterminds who are flawed antagonists, if they weren't flawed at all there would be no way to beat them, right?

So I don't understand these complaints, I respect them but still, the only real ones I can think of are: the plot is not moving, or barely, because they are adding pointless filler stuff like the Zeti or the tower (maybe that will come back into play?), instead of focusing on the arc's real central characters like Starline, I understand the complaint "he's overused, in every arc" but it's right now his big time as a main villain, so IMO it is justified, and definitely more interesting than anything else going on in the comic right now...

If only they could do a better job giving Starline a few flaws of his own.

Still, while I do agree that Starline is one of the more interesting aspects of the comics, it'd also be nice to anticipate his return little more? And it wouldn't hurt to let other things have a chance to become interesting or at least be fun; we've complained about two of the most recent arcs precisely because it doesn't do enough with the unique scenarios and pairups they had as selling points because they were evidently leaving room for Starline to be the real conflict halfway through.  Starline can't nor should he carry this book alone, especially since much of his charm as a character comes from how he views Eggman and to a lesser degree Sonic.

Overall, everything moves too fast to truly appreciate since the climax of Year 1 and what doesn't is usually because of separate miniseries or delays.

[Wraith]

I like Tangle and Whisper a lot better than Starline, still. Belle too despite some clunk.