Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Red Hot Jack]

The way I see it, Starline's flaw is that he had his own idea of Eggman, he admired him enough to overshadow himself as a villain. Also his overplanning can get him to forget about something else more than often, causing his defeat. Also, in Bad Guys he was too busy with his plan to notice the others were plotting revenge against him, he underestimated his allies and got backstabbed himself and almost killed. He got away because of the tricore. I don't think he is more dangerous than Eggman right now, the only upper hand, if anything, is his precise planning, which can also cause him trouble. 

[Kuzu]

Two more pages for issue #44.

 

Can't believe we got two issues this month with no delays.

[Soniman]

Zavok saying he respects Sonic for sticking to his morals is p cool. I appreciate any nuanced characterization from them that isn't just "kill everyone"

[Zaysho]

Honestly that answer is so Sonic and I'm glad we're not dealing with more stupid "omg Sonic how dare you make a moral decision that we left up to you because we're useless idiots" half the fucking cast did last storyline. That shit got old and barely works in a book so married to its status quo that it can't be explored in any meaningful capacity anyway.

[Red Hot Jack]

I still hope they do something with it because it matters to the other characters, there is a moral conflict among the hero cast, not everyone agrees with Sonic as tough as a person he is, they need to deal with this "letting go of the villains that causes other disasters" eventually, it's deep, I don't care, I want to see it. Having deep moral discussions is interesting and they already brought it up, they just need to focus on it.

[Zaysho]

The way the book handled it has never sat right with me when I was reading through the story as it first came out. Stuff like when I see the Chaotix blaming Sonic like they played no part in convincing him that Tinker was okay always felt like an attempt to make a flaw out of it.

The book just doesn't feel like it's equipped to deal with this stuff in an interesting way because it will always circle back to Sonic being right and fixing things anyway because that's what the games do. It's not really Ian's fault or anything and to his credit he's made good attempts to show how Sonic deals with it at least, like threatening Eggman directly with the virus but being stuck working with him anyway, but it tends to feel forced if the book isn't allowed to do anything with it. It's not like TMNT which has used these themes and it actually has some consequences on the storyline that need to be resolved.

Maybe whenever I reread the book from the beginning I'll see it in a new light but my first reaction to just seeing those flashbacks in the preview is just to groan.

[Kuzu]

Its a question that the book simply cannot answer since its so slavishly devoted to the status quo. In another series, it would be an interesting conflict to explore. 

But this is a licensed product designed to promote the series first and foremost and a storytelling medium second, so it can't really address it because it would disrupt the status quo of the series in a way that goes against it being a licensed product.

 

[Razule]

I think that challenging the hero's mercy is an interesting concept for the comic to explore. It's character building Sonic doesn't really get in the games, where just beats up Eggman and he gets thrown into the distance by the resulting explosion.

Now that this has been established though, I hope we can move on from it. Because Eggman and most other villains are going to keep doing horrible things, and if Sonic keeps getting called out on not committing murder it's going to make him look like an overly optimistic fool. This is a problem a lot of other long-running heroes have, but obviously they can never permanently kill their iconic antagonists.

[dbzfan7]

Are we sure we can't send that rocket into the sun 

[Meta77]

On 9/11/2021 at 8:30 AM, DabigRG said:

 

Define threat

 

Sonic Adventure. Tried to bomb station square without remorse but being petty for losing earlier.  Sonic adventure 2 holding amy at gunpoint, trying to kill sonic by shooting him into space in a bomb laced tube, blowing up prison island, 06 bombing a festival. etc

[Sonictrainer]

Something tells me that rocket isn't going to make it to its destination...

[Sega DogTagz]

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Its a question that the book simply cannot answer since its so slavishly devoted to the status quo. In another series, it would be an interesting conflict to explore. 

But this is a licensed product designed to promote the series first and foremost and a storytelling medium second, so it can't really address it because it would disrupt the status quo of the series in a way that goes against it being a licensed product.

 

I wouldn't say that. Honestly, there are a handful of characters that are built of the foundation of "doing what is necessary" to various degrees which would be perfect candidates for this topic of discussion. Shoot, Silver was asking himself this kill or no kill question back in 06 for anyone who forgot all that jazz.

The main issue here, is that you can't really apply any of it to Sonic himself. Despite being the catalyst at the center of everything, his strength of will and commitment to his ideals makes any and all challenges to him null and void. His convictions can, at worst, only be shaken in the short term. It has less to due with maintaining the status quo and more to due with him just being confident in his own views. His response to Zavok here is perfect and should be his go to mindset whenever someone challenges him on the topic in the future. That's who he is. Thats what he is about.

But the book can continue to tread this road with other characters if need be. Shadow for one, wouldn't be content to fall in line behind Sonic and could easily strike out on his own under this banner. He's genocide'd under Flynn's pen before and is always a threat to kill again. Knuckles, Blaze and Silver have all acted in the interest of the greater good in the past, and can be written to toe that line again if so desired.

This franchise plays fast and loose with antiheros. Its perfectly capable of balancing a "finish him" subpplot. I honestly like what has been done with it here. Its background fodder, but it has come up several times now with several different characters. Its a nice way to sharpen Sonic's heroism through philosophy, while also being a legitimate way to gin up conflict between the heroes. At least Shadow has a reason to be hostile toward Sonic now, beyond just being a jerk for no reason.

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I wouldn't say that. Honestly, there are a handful of characters that are built of the foundation of "doing what is necessary" to various degrees which would be perfect candidates for this topic of discussion. Shoot, Silver was asking himself this kill or no kill question back in 06 for anyone who forgot all that jazz.

The main issue here, is that you can't really apply any of it to Sonic himself. Despite being the catalyst at the center of everything, his strength of will and commitment to his ideals makes any and all challenges to him null and void. His convictions can, at worst, only be shaken in the short term. It has less to due with maintaining the status quo and more to due with him just being confident in his own views. His response to Zavok here is perfect and should be his go to mindset whenever someone challenges him on the topic in the future. That's who he is. Thats what he is about.

But the book can continue to tread this road with other characters if need be. Shadow for one, wouldn't be content to fall in line behind Sonic and could easily strike out on his own under this banner. He's genocide'd under Flynn's pen before and is always a threat to kill again. Knuckles, Blaze and Silver have all acted in the interest of the greater good in the past, and can be written to toe that line again if so desired.

This franchise plays fast and loose with antiheros. Its perfectly capable of balancing a "finish him" subpplot. I honestly like what has been done with it here. Its background fodder, but it has come up several times now with several different characters. Its a nice way to sharpen Sonic's heroism through philosophy, while also being a legitimate way to gin up conflict between the heroes. At least Shadow has a reason to be hostile toward Sonic now, beyond just being a jerk for no reason.

My issue with this line of reasoning is that it effectively demonizes anyone who is against Sonic's way of doing things. Obviously Sonic is never going to stoop to the same level as his enemies, I'm not asking for that, it wouldn't make sense for the character as you said. The problem here is that Shadow (and later Espio) has a very legitimate issue. But since Sonic is the main character and the face of the entire series, ultimately he is the one the reader is meant to side with. As a result, it takes what should be an equal sided issue and turns it into a case of morality centered around the protagonist. 

Shadow already gets shit nowadays for acting like an uncooperative asshole, and this would pretty much just legitimatize it. So you have a scenario where Shadow has to either submit to Sonic's way of doing things or pretty much be demonized as a constant antagonist. That would generally be fine if it thiswas literally anyone but Eggman; if Shadow wanted to say, kill a little girl over something she had no control over only because of the danger she posed (and he has if we count X) then I would agree. But he's 100% right about Eggman being a threat and he literally proved it by nearly causing the end of the world, after Shadow acquiesced Sonic's request to let him go and he was rightfully pissed off about it. 

But rather than having the two of them address this fact; Shadow gets turned into a Zombot and the issue between the two is never brought up again as the next time they interact, it's in reference to Shadow's wrongdoing for getting infected and not about the fact that Sonic keeps letting his enemies go. 

 

 

All of this can be alleviated if Sonic & Shadow understood and just respected the fact that they simply have different methods and ideologies that aren't compatible and go their separate ways until circumstance either forces them to put that aside or come to blows.   At the very least, it would put them on even ground again (And actually legitimatize their rivalry).

[Endy]

I have no idea why they wanted to apply this theme to Sonic specifically, I don't imagine anyone was asking for an interrogation of Sonic the Hedgehog's moral philosophy and is far more suited to characters like Shadow and Silver, or even Whisper as stupid as her backstory is. As it is this plot point in the comic just leads to a bunch of unpleasant whinging on the part of the characters that also can't go anywhere meaningful, it's just pointless misery. This comic is absolutely at odds with itself and I couldn't imagine why this is even addressed in here if the writer is fully aware that this is a light hearted status quo driven comic. If this is the end of this particular plot point then I'll be very glad.

5 hours ago, Razule said:

Now that this has been established though, I hope we can move on from it. Because Eggman and most other villains are going to keep doing horrible things, and if Sonic keeps getting called out on not committing murder it's going to make him look like an overly optimistic fool. This is a problem a lot of other long-running heroes have, but obviously they can never permanently kill their iconic antagonists.

This only really has to be a problem if the consequences of said villains actions are portrayed as particularly realistic or miserable. A comic where things are quite dramatic but smartly choose to leave some details of realistic consequence out can skirt around this by just not making how devastating things are an issue. Unfortunately Sonic comics tend to have things like "Eggman killed all the men of my village and sold the others into slavery" but then have the main characters let him off with little more than a "alright you're off the hook for now bubble butt uh huh huh huh". There seems to be a great imbalance in action and consequence. The logical step to resolve this would just be to tone down how devastating things are to scale with the consequences that they are actually allowed to portray, but you know. They don't.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I feel like the problem here is they want the stopping point of this 'growth' to be that Sonic realises that his enemies can be a danger, and he doesn't want to compromise on his morals, deciding that he'll instead just have to stop them every time they cause trouble.

The issue is that Sonic - by SEGA's own mandate - is entirely reactionary. Sonic says he'll stop them next time they wanna cause trouble, but he largely just hits them a few times and lets them run off to do whatever again afterwards. Even here, they could probably at least lock the Zeti up with the zappers to stop them from using their powers and such. Hell, even Zavok had to be busted out by Starline last time, and yet that isn't even an option here. Sonic's just going to let these guys go ahead and destroy and hurt whoever they please in the time it takes for him to stop them, and even then - who knows if Sonic can stop them. He got lucky with the Metal Virus arc after all.

I don't entirely see an issue with Sonic taking the attitude of stopping injustice when he sees it but it's not the be all, end all solution, and Shadow and Espio have a valid point that Sonic's reactionary decisions effect more than himself and can cause even more misery and harm. It's not something they can easily just wrap up like that, and it frankly makes it look a bit worse on Sonic's end that he's just happy to let enemies piss off knowing full well they'll be more dangerous when they return for payback. I'd rather they'd just not address it at that point instead of shining a glaring spotlight on a character trait that unintentionally makes Sonic look worse. 

I agree with Sonic that they shouldn't be killed and allowed the chance to be redeemed, but stuff like letting Eggman scurry off after god knows how many times or letting the Deadly Six freely roam again to just return to the planet after what they pulled with the Metal Virus AND here is a bit too much. There's zero reason they couldn't have just thrown the six back into prison, or they could actively be hunting down Eggman to try lock him up as well.

[Kuzu]

In another hilarious Dragon Ball parallel, its the same logic as Goku bringing Freeza back from the grave, knowing full well he has no intentions of changing his ways and Goku just being perfectly fine with stopping him whenever he causes trouble. Vegeta even calls him out for this and Goku just blows him off and the issue is swept under the rug.

 

I know the intent is to show how determined and resolute the hero is in foiling the villain, but it just reflects badly on them more than I think the writers realize, because they're essentially saying the hero is perfectly fine with the villain causing trouble as long as its not directly related to them.

 

I just hope this is the last we see of this. Its not bad, but the longer we spend on it, the more it bothers me.

[Razule]

4 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

Something tells me that rocket isn't going to make it to its destination...

It better.

[Soniman]

My guess on why no prison is that it's a easy way to  put them in semi permanent retirement on the Lost Hex where they can't escape by their own power and no one, not even the bad guys would be dumb enough to try and bring them back so they get to stay put in a way that makes sense 

[Wraith]

Sonic's just never been the type to imprison anyone. To him, everyone should be free. He's never even tried to put Eggman in a box. Not sure why he'd start with a group that's easier to manage.

[Razule]

The Lost Hex is essentially their prison. And Sonic trapped Erazor Djinn in the lamp. Sonic seems fine with putting enemies out of sight and out of mind as long as it isn't literally a jail. And if they do end up in an actual facility without his involvement, he's not going to go out of his way to bust them out in the name of freedom. 

[CertifiedNobody]

I don't mind the Deadly Six but I'm ready to finally move on. I hope that they'll remain on the Lost Hex for at least two or three years.

[Diogenes]

59 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I agree with Sonic that they shouldn't be killed and allowed the chance to be redeemed, but stuff like letting Eggman scurry off after god knows how many times or letting the Deadly Six freely roam again to just return to the planet after what they pulled with the Metal Virus AND here is a bit too much. There's zero reason they couldn't have just thrown the six back into prison, or they could actively be hunting down Eggman to try lock him up as well.

I think it's worth noting that they're framing Lost Hex as essentially a prison for the D6, somewhere they can't leave and thus can't go around hurting anyone. I feel like that's a pretty satisfying resolution for the issue; it gets them out of the picture without compromising on Sonic's morals, and it's a plausible enough barrier that I can buy them being stuck there until the writers decide they want them back and contrive a way out for them.

On the subject of jailing villains in general, though, it's not something that sits entirely well with me. As much as you can make a practical argument for it, as Wraith said, that's just not how Sonic operates, it contradicts his morals almost as much as killing does. Having him participate in a deliberate, organized system of imprisoning people, even bad guys, just fundamentally does not feel like Sonic. And it's hard to imagine coming from most of the other heroes as well, even if they're not on quite the same extreme pro-freedom wavelength that Sonic is. I wouldn't say that it can't come up at all, necessarily, but I can only really see it existing on the periphery, a matter for the few characters who would believably resort to it, not something routinely used and accepted by the main cast.

And on solving the whole "what to do with villains" question within this series, I can only think of one way to resolve it that even has a chance at feeling satisfying. If they can't prove Sonic wrong, the only thing left is to prove him right. And not simply by having him maintain the status quo, not simply by having him always stop the villain before anything too bad happens, but they need to show that his beliefs actually have a positive effect, that people can change, and that that's valueable enough to outweigh the risk of villains continuing to do evil. The problem, though, is in how to do it. First off becuse I don't see any currently existing villains switching sides any time soon, secondly because the series already had a bit of a habit of its villains turning good before this whole issue was raised. If pointing out Shadow's redemption back in issue 6 or whatever it was didn't solve the problem, then they'd need to find a way to take that worn-out trope and outdo themselves strong enough to make it work. And maybe that can be pulled off, but maybe it's more trouble than it'd be worth and it'd be better if they just dropped the whole thing and moved on.

[Kuzu]

That's pretty much exactly what I said before; pretty much every character has to submit to Sonic's way of life, lest they be considered an antagonist. There's just no scenario I can see where Sonic will be proven wrong, because then you ruin the very foundation of the book and series in general. Now I would be 100% on board with that, and it's really my main issue with the franchise being so squarely centered on Sonic nowadays. Sonic was able to screw up and make mistakes and actually learn from the experience but now since he's pretty much the center of everything, there's no room for that type of character growth. 

So the only other scenario I can see in that case, is to just have other characters submit, particularly Shadow. There's no way his way of thinking will ever be vindicated and I'd rather he not be demonized any further than he already is. So just put Shadow in the same scenario as Sonic and just have him decide that Sonic's way of thinking is ultimately correct, as reluctant he would be to admit it. Put him in a scenario where he is the judge, jury, and executioner and ultimately decide that's not the way.  

Sonic just isn't a series that works with moral ambiguity like this unless you upend it's foundation, so you may as well just fully embrace a more simplistic morality system. Is it kind of boring? Absolutely, but it's certainly way easier to work with.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That's pretty much exactly what I said before; pretty much every character has to submit to Sonic's way of life, lest they be considered an antagonist.

That's a pretty wild exaggeration. There's lines they're not going to cross, but there's still room for some disagreement with Sonic. I think it'd be entirely reasonable for, say, Shadow to be more proactive about stopping Eggman's schemes, hunting down and destroying his bases and such, compared to Sonic's purely reactive approach. 

[Wraith]

I think if they had ended it with "I didn't kill or imprison you and you turned out fine" that would have wrapped the subject in a neat little bow. Shadow's existence is proof that Sonic is correct. They could just remind us of that and cap it off there.