Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

...none of the characters I like have been getting much attention...

I don't know where Surge is either.

[UberHoax]

On 9/21/2021 at 11:15 AM, CertifiedNobody said:

"Male hedgehogs can only go super" isn't an in-universe rule, it's an out-of-universe guideline to keep the focus on Sonic and his rivals. It doesn't really seem rooted in sexism, especially since they have no problem with Burning Blaze.

I understand that they're trying to keep the series focused on Sonic and his rivals, but it still feels like an arbitrary imposition.
So far, it just feels like an excuse for SEGA to not explore the topic of super forms.

[Rienasketch]

1 hour ago, UberHoax said:

I understand that they're trying to keep the series focused on Sonic and his rivals, but it still feels like an arbitrary imposition.
So far, it just feels like an excuse for SEGA to not explore the topic of super forms.

 

You can keep the series focused more on Sonic's rivals with or without them going super, or by allowing someone else to go super. If you hypothetically need a super form to supplement character focus, your doing something wrong. Meanwhile, allowing more people to access the power of the emeralds can create new kinds of rivals for Sonic to fight. I feel like this rule is just limiting the series more than its helping. The Chaos Emeralds could be a new and exciting tool to get more characters involved in the story, but it just feels like SEGA keeps trying to push the same old formulas that weren't working to begin with, damaging the story's potential.

[CertifiedNobody]

Does anyone know how how strict Sega is about the "Male hedgehogs only" rule anyways? After all, it's been broken multiple times in the last few years by Knuckles and Tails in Mania, Mighty and Ray in Mania Plus, and Metal Sonic in both Sonic Mania Adventures and the IDW comics.

Several "mandates" and "rules" have been little more than loose guidelines that can be broken if Sega likes the idea. Like how characters weren't allowed to change clothes for a while, but Sega's loosened up on that. Metal Overlord was also allowed to be used by IDW despite being banned in Archie. Two Worlds is pretty much confirmed non-canon as well.

[Salamander]

3 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Does anyone know how how strict Sega is about the "Male hedgehogs only" rule anyways? After all, it's been broken multiple times in the last few years by Knuckles and Tails in Mania, Mighty and Ray in Mania Plus, and Metal Sonic in both Sonic Mania Adventures and the IDW comics.

I imagine SEGA views those as bonus forms of sorts, not as true Super forms.  Super Sonic's the only one who ever gets any unique story content in the Classic games; and in the Modern games, Super forms are even more closely tied to the storyline.  "Only male hedgehogs" is a descriptive rule that really just amounts to "no introducing new Supers in the story."

[Kazhnuz]

Yeah, I think that the rules is "only male hedgehog" mostly because it's only "Sonic, Silver and Shadow" have officially one in-story, more than some kind of in-universe rule, and that in Mania they're mostly a nice bonus (to be fair, even in the classic they were maybe that, in that only Super Sonic had a design that wasn't a palette-based effect...)

And TBH, i'm all for restricting it to a small cast of character, it doesn't bother me. I just would prefer if they added a female character that have a "super form" (especially as I feel that it wouldn't not be bad to add a new female character on the same "power-level" than Sonic/Shadow/Silver that would not be trapped in another dimension like Blaze. Because it would add better representation in the character cast and because it feel that it would be interesting to have a new character at this level to shake things a bit. Adding a super form to Amy could be a solution, too, but I feel that adding a new "S-tiers" character would be fun).

[CertifiedNobody]

2 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Yeah, I think that the rules is "only male hedgehog" mostly because it's only "Sonic, Silver and Shadow" have officially one in-story, more than some kind of in-universe rule, and that in Mania they're mostly a nice bonus (to be fair, even in the classic they were maybe that, in that only Super Sonic had a design that wasn't a palette-based effect...)

And TBH, i'm all for restricting it to a small cast of character, it doesn't bother me. I just would prefer if they added a female character that have a "super form" (especially as I feel that it wouldn't not be bad to add a new female character on the same "power-level" than Sonic/Shadow/Silver that would not be trapped in another dimension like Blaze. Because it would add better representation in the character cast and because it feel that it would be interesting to have a new character at this level to shake things a bit. Adding a super form to Amy could be a solution, too, but I feel that adding a new "S-tiers" character would be fun).

I don't care who can do it as long as Knuckles can. He's the character with the most connection to the Emeralds, and it'd be unfair to keep him locked out, especially since his Super/Hyper form is impossible to make non-canon since it's part of his good ending in Sonic 3.

Surge would be interesting with a Super Form, but characters like Amy or Tangle would feel redundant with a super form since they have no experience with them and don't have as many powers that would be enhanced. In most situations, it'd just leave the reader thinking "Why did they give it to her and not a more powerful character who could utilize it better?"

It's not impossible for them to make it work, but it'd require a specific storyline that separates Amy from the more powerful characters and forces her to use the emeralds, and that much effort just to say "Hey, Amy can go super" would be worthless to the overall comic and probably feel like filler.

[Razule]

Knuckles just isn't one of the Emeralds' chosen people.

Even back in Heroes, Knuckles and Tails got those "Super Shields" instead of actual forms. Don't know if that means the "only male hedgehogs" rule was established when Shadow was introduced. Or maybe it was the modern equivalent of their sprites just glowing in classic.

I think it makes Super forms more special if the number of characters who can use them is limited. Like, there doesn't need to be a Super Charmy. The "male hedgehogs only" rule exists because of that, and it doesn't make sense in-universe because it's not supposed to. It's an external rule. 

[CertifiedNobody]

3 minutes ago, Razule said:

Knuckles just isn't one of the Emeralds' chosen people.

Even back in Heroes, Knuckles and Tails got those "Super Shields" instead of actual forms. Don't know if that means the "only male hedgehogs" rule was established when Shadow was introduced. Or maybe it was the modern equivalent of their sprites just glowing in classic.

I think it makes Super forms more special if the number of characters who can use them is limited. Like, there doesn't need to be a Super Charmy. The "male hedgehogs only" rule exists because of that, and it doesn't make sense in-universe because it's not supposed to. It's an external rule. 

The game data for Heroes and some dialogue for Cream during the Metal Overlord fight refer to those shields as Super forms. Assuming this is fully canon, the shields are just a weird artstyle change and not a separate concept altogether. And as I said before, Knuckles' super form has to be canon for him to get back the Master Emerald in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, it's as canon as sonic going Super/Hyper in Doomsday Zone.

[Kazhnuz]

About Knuckles, I don't remember Super/Hyper Knuckles appearing more than just the classic "final splash screen", which I don't find that important story-wise (it's mostly a "congratulation scene"). I'm not too concerned too about him having a super form or not. It would be cool to have maybe one day a Super Knuckles again (IMO, if he started to have a real super form, I think he would get gold as the other canon one, and would basically be something "new" for SEGA).

I think that they are more Sonic super form, more than actual Tails/Knuckles super form. If they wanted them to be really separate from Sonic's, they would have shown them as actual Super Form. It shows that they were "less important" than Sonic. Especially as only three years later, when Shadow and Silver get super form sharing, they get actual Super Form, and that in not other game they got Super Form.

So for me, even during this whole era, they had the idea of those character "not really having" Super Forms. And maybe even in the classic era, their superform weren't as "real" as Sonic's.

[CertifiedNobody]

2 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

About Knuckles, I don't remember Super/Hyper Knuckles appearing more than just the classic "final splash screen", which I don't find that important story-wise (it's mostly a "congratulation scene"). I'm not too concerned too about him having a super form or not. It would be cool to have maybe one day a Super Knuckles again (IMO, if he started to have a real super form, I think he would get gold as the other canon one).

I think that they are more Sonic super form, more than actual Tails/Knuckles super form. If they wanted them to be really separate from Sonic's, they would have shown them as actual Super Form.

 

Angel Island is permanently grounded if he doesn't go Super. 

[Kazhnuz]

Good point, Angel Island fall in the bad ending, so this one have some kind of existence in-story. Now we come about the issues around canon, but that another thing. But TBH, for me even if Super Knuckles have some existence in-story, he isn't that much a big problem of not having a Super Form. It would be nice if he got one, but I feel that it's kinda less a problem of the stupidity of saying "only male hedgehog have one".

That's why if I had to choose between Knuckles getting in super form, and a female S-tiers character (it's funny because except Blaze, those character name begin with a S XD), I would kinda prefer the second possibility.

2 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

It's not impossible for them to make it work, but it'd require a specific storyline that separates Amy from the more powerful characters and forces her to use the emeralds, and that much effort just to say "Hey, Amy can go super" would be worthless to the overall comic and probably feel like filler.

You can do other thing at the same time. If they want it to happens in their story, it's pretty simple. They can even make her simply have the super form in a "multiple super form" scenario. Adding some kind of mysteries about "do she can". There are hundreds of things to do if they have the right ideas.

There are a lot of possibilities.

[Rienasketch]

2 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Good point, Angel Island fall in the bad ending, so this one have some kind of existence in-story. Now we come about the issues around canon, but that another thing. But TBH, for me even if Super Knuckles have some existence in-story, he isn't that much a big problem of not having a Super Form. It would be nice if he got one, but I feel that it's kinda less a problem of the stupidity of saying "only male hedgehog have one".

That's why if I had to choose between Knuckles getting in super form, and a female S-tiers character (it's funny because except Blaze, those character name begin with a S XD), I would kinda prefer the second possibility.

You can do other thing at the same time. If they want it to happens in their story, it's pretty simple. They can even make her simply have the super form in a "multiple super form" scenario. Adding some kind of mysteries about "do she can". There are hundreds of things to do if they have the right ideas.

There are a lot of possibilities.

 

You could also go the semi-magical girl route and give Amy a pre-super form, along with a few other characters. A form that may be stronger than how they'd normally be, but weaker than the actual super form. So perhaps when a character interacts with an emerald they can unlock new abilities depending on which emerald they have. Similarly to the Shikon Jewel in Inuyasha where the abilities of a character can enhance if they're holding onto one.

[Kazhnuz]

That would be a pretty interesting idea to explore. Some kind of weaker "pre-super forms" that are more commons would be an interesting addition to the Sonic lore (especially if they are a bit "specialized"). I'd still want a female Super Form, but "pre-super forms" would be really nice and would solve the issue of getting some "powered state" to characters without having too much Super Forms

[Razule]

Classic and Modern Sonic are from separate dimensions now, so it doesn't really matter if Knuckles turned Super/Hyper at the ending of his story. If Modern Knuckles had an equivalent to that, he didn't do it and Angel Island was fine anyway.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Razule said:

Classic and Modern Sonic are from separate dimensions now, so it doesn't really matter if Knuckles turned Super/Hyper at the ending of his story. If Modern Knuckles had an equivalent to that, he didn't do it and Angel Island was fine anyway.

Thanks for reminding me of more reasons to hate that separation. Along with that stupid “only male hedgehogs can go super” nonsense.

I liked the idea of Chaos Emeralds letting anyone use their power to go super if they knew how. Not everyone has to go super, but that’s a pretty silly limitation.

[Diogenes]

4 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I don't care who can do it as long as Knuckles can. He's the character with the most connection to the Emeralds, and it'd be unfair to keep him locked out, especially since his Super/Hyper form is impossible to make non-canon since it's part of his good ending in Sonic 3.

I think you're misremembering; he can get his good ending with the chaos emeralds with no transformation involved. He's only transformed in the cutscene and ending art if you've got the super emeralds.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I think you're misremembering; he can get his good ending with the chaos emeralds with no transformation involved. He's only transformed in the cutscene and ending art if you've got the super emeralds.

It's less misremembering and more "I've never played through the game without getting the Super Emeralds", even still, the Super Emeralds are the  canon endgame for Sonic 3, so I'd still argue the Hyper Knuckles ending is correct.

2 hours ago, Razule said:

Classic and Modern Sonic are from separate dimensions now, so it doesn't really matter if Knuckles turned Super/Hyper at the ending of his story. If Modern Knuckles had an equivalent to that, he didn't do it and Angel Island was fine anyway.

Regardless of if the Classic Sonic from Mania is from another dimension, the characters still remember and reference events from the classic games throughout modern Sonic, so it's clear the same events occurred in both dimensions, similar to how the Adventure games happen in Sonic X and Archie Sonic despite being other dimensions.

[Meta77]

Super Emeralds are NOT canon to any form of the old game. Its why they have not appeared in any media form since. 

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

 even still, the Super Emeralds are the  canon endgame for Sonic 3, so I'd still argue the Hyper Knuckles ending is correct.

I don't think they are. Only a Super Sonic playthrough gives you the teaser for Knuckles' story, showing you the rogue Eggrobo, which as I see it gives it more narrative significance than Hyper Sonic. And discaring the super emeralds and just having a chaos emerald Sonic run and a chaos emerald Knuckles run seems more in line with the canon post-3&K; no super emeralds, no hyper forms, no Super Tails, and a plausible argument that there's no canonical Super Knuckles, just the chaos emeralds and Super Sonic.

[CertifiedNobody]

46 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Super Emeralds are NOT canon to any form of the old game. Its why they have not appeared in any media form since. 

Their existence is established by the cutscene at the beginning of Mushroom Hill Zone, and they return when Eggman steals the Master Emerald. Saying they aren't canon means both of these cutscenes don't actually occur in the story, or are at least very different than what's presented.

[Diogenes]

The super emeralds aren't there unless you enter the giant ring with some emeralds and summon/create/whatever them, there's just empty pedestals otherwise.

e: also wouldn't be unreasonable for the games to be canon individually rather than in their combined form, in which case the Mushroom Hill/HPZ cutscene doesn't exist (and of course in a practical sense the super emeralds wouldn't exist as well).

[CertifiedNobody]

24 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

The super emeralds aren't there unless you enter the giant ring with some emeralds and summon/create/whatever them, there's just empty pedestals otherwise.

e: also wouldn't be unreasonable for the games to be canon individually rather than in their combined form, in which case the Mushroom Hill/HPZ cutscene doesn't exist (and of course in a practical sense the super emeralds wouldn't exist as well).

Then what are the pedestals for? And what are the statues of in Mania?

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Then what are the pedestals for? And what are the statues of in Mania?

Chaos emeralds. While it's a whole other headache in itself, the Japanese Sonic 3 manual mentions the emeralds being there until recently. The stones in Mania are obviously a reference to the super emeralds from our perspective but they work just as well as symbolic stand-ins for the chaos emeralds.

[Kazhnuz]

57 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

And what are the statues of in Mania?

A nice reference.