Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[KoDaiko]

13 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

“Reflecting” the games is not the same as being the games—Archie Sonic heavily reflected the games more and more as Ian took over and even more so when the reboot occurred. But it still wasn’t the games.

Even if it’s more mandated to reflect the games more closely, I would expect the same for IDW in that it’s kept separate as well, especially given that it has elements that even the games never bothered with: Super Neo Metal Sonic, anyone? Warp Topaz? And don’t get me started on the Metal Virus.

 

If Mimic were to be brought into the games, I’m not sure how they’d pull of his betrayal and antagonism to Whisper without going much the same route. But ability-wise, it’s not so difficult to buff him to make him a decent match much like how they did Sally with wrist mounted laser swords to fight with.

I'm paraphrasing so don't remember if "reflect" was the exact wording.

I have hard time believing SEGA would go out of their way to use the characters only to change it, like buffing Mimic. Idk the creative process, but you'll need a good enough reason to bother doing that instead of creating a new camouflaging fighter. Or given how Sega is in close contact/supervision with IDW (idk if it's the same or more than Archie) and the numerous mandate shenanigans Ian told us, I dunno why they won't ask the comic to "stay consistent" with their game branding. Especially for stuff like characters.

Your mention of Sally did remind me, there are repeated discussion on having the FF be in the game and how the characters may be adjusted or not to join. I guess as long as the "core" (whatever that means to each person) is intact people are fine, but at a certain point it's not that character anymore. I think it's kinda similar to that. To me a buff Mimic isn't really Mimic. Like how a non-traumatized loner Whisper isn't Whisper.

In the end, it's all up to how Sega does their thing I guess.

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Aren't all of them designed from a gameplay perspective anyways?

Ian did say Tangle & Whisper were based on game mechanics like grap hooks and wispons, and Starline's Tricore is based on the hero thing (right?). The others, not that I know of...

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Aren't all of them designed from a gameplay perspective anyways?

Most of the new characters in IDW are, yeah. I'm not sure how Belle would fit into a Sonic game but I want to see how her story plays out first.

[dbzfan7]

Somebody give that boi a hug. I swear he looks like he suffers from depression.

[Kaotic Kanine]

3 hours ago, SkyHorizon said:

When I read this, I see Tangle, certainly not Amy.

Then clearly you weren't around during the Adventure Era, when that described Amy to a T. 

3 hours ago, SkyHorizon said:

Honestly, you're trying way too hard, it's getting ridiculous...

You know, I was wary of you when you first joined this forum. And good to get confirmation you're an asshole. Enjoy the Ignored list ^^ 

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I still don't see it man, so I'm just gonna agree to disagree since this is clearly more important for you than it is for me.

Fair enough. I didn't even want to get into this fucking discussion. Just chipping in my thoughts on the whole "Tangle is another Amy" notion, and get called a try-hard logic twisting shithead for it. @DabigRG Here's your answer as to why people drop out of this forum on the fly.

[DabigRG]

13 hours ago, Kuzu said:

But like you just said, they're superficial comparisons. There are fundamental differences too, which was my entire point.

Tangle and Amy have two entirely different functions and roles, even if they do have some overlap, but that's literally inevitable because this series already has so many recurring characters to begin with.

 

Amy doesn't have a hometown she's trying to defend, Amy is a bit more thoughtful about her actions, and she doesn't have to put on a show of bravdo. Nothing Tangle has done applies to Amy beyond an extremely superficial level, and at that point, you could apply that to literally every character.

 

Like I said, y'all are looking for something that's not there. If you're annoyed at Tangle for having traits you associate with Amy then I don't really know what to say. I've never really associated anything from Tangle with Amy. They're two characters who have a few similarities but ultimately have two different niches.

Now if the annoyance is more because Amy rarely fulfills her niche, then that's understandable but that doesn't have much to do with Tangle.

You can remove the apostrophe elle from that, since the sentiment in itself is only really significant for fans of Amy. 

I can understand it due to both having really thought about story writing conveniences for over a half decade and never thought or got much for Tangle to begin with.

12 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Amy and Tangle are similar, but like Shadow, Knuckles, Silver (initially) and Blaze are similar (kinda-introverted serious character focused on a "mission" and that personnalities can lead to fight with Sonic). On a broad sense they have similar elements, but it's the details of their personnalities that create their identities, and that make in a similar scene, each would give a different flavour to the scene.

Tangle got a moment that Amy could get. But to be fair, Tails could have got this moment too (IIRC, when he got a similar moment in Archie, wasn't Amy AND Tails the one doing it ?). Heck, even Cream in some context could get "angry" at Sonic and do the pep talk (add on the top a reference to how he saved his mother). In a different style, Sally would do it in a setting where she is here. Even rivals character could do it, again in a different style. Doing pep talk and being enthusiast about Sonic isn't only Amy's thing, and a lot of character can have this role, nearly any kind character that have some kind of link to Sonic. Tangle gave this quite common role in her own way, and Amy had her own plotline (becoming head of resistence, and understanding it's not for her - which is certainly an accident, but an happy one, it's nice having a character in a story for kids having this lesson) instead of being a part of Sonic's plotline.

Here, the fact that give a different flavour if Tangle says it and if Amy says it is that Tangle is quite more "rash", and that she doesn't have a crush on Sonic (it doesn't make it better or worse, but it changes the perspective of the action). So I don't think Tangle really stole anything from Amy, she just had a role that is common with her. In other condition, Amy could have done a similar pep-talk. Maybe such a situation will happen (it had happen in the Mecha Sally arc), maybe not.

 

( And I would say the whole idea of a *character* stealing a scene to another is strange to me, but that's another story )

I think this highlights where failure to understand the viewpoint is coming from: while I won't say it can't be taken to unreasonable levels, the assumption is that this merely comes down to the characters having similar moments period rather than noting the inherent commonalities even outside of it.

One is a subjective product of the other observation.

10 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I guess it's kinda character starvation? You know, like getting angry when your favorite character doesn't get into Smash, so you point at someone who *stole* his spot. Or accusing Omochao of stealing a slot from Cream in Team Racing. Personally I understand the feeling one could have, but ultimately the only logical course of action is to accept it and move on.

I was angry that Shadow went down as a angry jerk, rather then martyr. And then Vector had pretty much what I wanted from Shadow. And I understand Flynn's logic: he can't give exactly the same "death" to every character, gotta keep things varied. So in a way I could accuse Vector of stealing Shadow cool scene.
But nah, that's just silly. Shadow has no emotional relation to Charmy. Would not give that touching little nod to Espio. Scene just worked better for Crocodile, no matter how much i would prefer otherwise.

True, although Flynn wanted to do other stuff with Shadow in the arc before Sonic Team ended up forcing him to scrap it entirely and seeing what ended up happening as a blessing in disguise in hindsight.

9 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

There is a fine line between quantity and quality.

Remember Archie Reboot? Sonic used to drag army of friend on every adventure and often they did nothing worth noting. Take Tails. Aside for very beginning and Championship, can anyone tell me what he did? Memorable scene, cool moment, being useful? He had plenty of screen time.

Meanwhile Omega had only 3 SU arcs with Shadow, Knuckles, Amy, Rouge and Eclipse having more focus than him. But he still stole the show by dialogue and action.

So in IDW while Amy had plenty Screentime, she had little Awesometime. Personally i could point few things I enjoyed, but only issue 2 was "highlight" of her character.

I mean, she beat a lot of badniks, but so what? What loser in this comic didn't got to destroy a single badnik... oh right, Shadow.

Speaking of which, it may be worth noting that Amy has generally been in a very different boat compared to most other characters--despite being the fifth most popular character in the entire canon, she is probably the most infamous/inconsistent main character from the Dreamcast era and easily the least liked of the Classic carryovers(and even the exclusives).

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Character stans are almost never satisfied man. Tails literally gets a starring role in every arc and you still have some people saying he's "neglected".

It's such a subjective issue that's different for everyone. Some people are satisfied when their favorite just shows up, while others want them to pretty much be on the same level of stardom as Sonic.

You know, I've heard that term for about a year since first thinking people were either mispronouncing fans or doing some sort of portmanteau. I've also seen it used derogatorily more often than not as of late, so go trendiness?

8 hours ago, SkyHorizon said:

 

Honestly, you're trying way too hard, it's getting ridiculous...

8 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

 

-Both are the more physically-oriented fighters of the female characters. Cause let's not forget that Amy wields a god damn hammer, and has utilized it for some serious acrobatics. What part of that is less physical than Tangle's stretchy tail and own acrobatics? 

That's a bit further than "similar color schemes". And if you're gonna be like that to me, then consider all the respect I have for you to be gone. 

Now let's try not to get too personal, K?

8 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

I will concede that Tangle's role is very much different from Amy's, and she is a great deal wackier. Thing to keep in mind is that Amy's characterization from the Adventure Era, wherein Amy's role went beyond just "girl who chases Sonic" to "Average girl out to become her own hero", is my preference for her.

Don't forget that Amy started out as more or less a joke character and retained hints of a silly quality up outside of maybe Shadow's game.

8 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

And Tangle seemed to be taking over that role while Amy was being fitted into Sally's role. 

Again, shorthand. And another possible inherent carryover for the arc.

8 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

The rules only apply to licensed media like the cartoons or comics. Sonic Team and other game devs can pretty much do whatever they want.

"A confrontational Tails? In MY Sonic? It's more likely than you think "

7 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Aren't all of them designed from a gameplay perspective anyways?

 

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Well Tangle and Whisper certainly are designed from a gameplay perspective.

And Jewel. Starline, Surge, and Kit were also said to be based around a game mechanic, but time will tell if that only referred to their glitch basis.

6 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

Somebody give that boi a hug. I swear he looks like he suffers from depression.

Or just can't doesn't give much of a shit.

Unless it's both--he can multitask.

5 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Then clearly you weren't around during the Adventure Era, when that described Amy to a T. 

You know, I was wary of you when you first joined this forum. And good to get confirmation you're an asshole. Enjoy the Ignored list ^^

 

5 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Fair enough. I didn't even want to get into this fucking discussion. Just chipping in my thoughts on the whole "Tangle is another Amy" notion, and get called a try-hard logic twisting shithead for it. @DabigRG Here's your answer as to why people drop out of this forum on the fly.

Oh yeah, I think I did here something like that. Bummer

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

I have hard time believing SEGA would go out of their way to use the characters only to change it, like buffing Mimic. Idk the creative process, but you'll need a good enough reason to bother doing that instead of creating a new camouflaging fighter. Or given how Sega is in close contact/supervision with IDW (idk if it's the same or more than Archie) and the numerous mandate shenanigans Ian told us, I dunno why they won't ask the comic to "stay consistent" with their game branding. Especially for stuff like characters.

They’ve done so to the game cast on more than one occasion, in the games and in the comics—does the whole Blaze/Silver/Nega plot hole started in Sonic 06 ring any bells?

I wouldn’t know the reason either, but this is basically the whole debacle that happened with Smash Bros over characters like Ridley being to big to fit in Smash. The point being, if there’s a will, there’s a way—if Sega went “Fuck it, throw in Mimic just cuz” (which I wouldn’t want them to use as a rationale, but for the sake of argument) then they’ll find a way to make Mimic viable.

9 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

Your mention of Sally did remind me, there are repeated discussion on having the FF be in the game and how the characters may be adjusted or not to join. I guess as long as the "core" (whatever that means to each person) is intact people are fine, but at a certain point it's not that character anymore. I think it's kinda similar to that. To me a buff Mimic isn't really Mimic. Like how a non-traumatized loner Whisper isn't Whisper.

And at what point is a character not that character? My mention of Sally also covers this—Reboot Sally isn’t the same as Old Sally, but she’s still Sally.

Heck, this applies to Sonic too—Boom and Movie incarnations aren’t the same as the game version by a canyon’s rift, but they’re still Sonic.

Mimic getting added abilities to make him viable for the games wouldn’t make him any less Mimic; likewise, a non-traumatized Whisper isn’t any less Whisper just because her background was changed—that’s not the only way these characters are recognizable. Their “core” has more to do with personalities and appearance while their backgrounds are more malleable, as there are a myriad of ways to convey these characters in an alternate setting.

What would make them not themselves is if you literally changed how they looked along with how they act: you know Sonic as a blue hedgehog that runs at supersonic speeds, so if for example he was changed into a red rabbit that moved and talked as slow as a brick and was a brooding loner like Shadow for no clear reason, that’s the obvious point when he’s not the same character.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

And at what point is a character not that character?

At a certain point of their existence, a character can be so recognizable that the only thing they need to exist outside of their original context is their personality and general appearance.

A side character like Whisper would probably need her background to transition to the games to introduce her to people who aren't comic readers, but that won't be necessary in any other new media that comes out for this series.

[DabigRG]

So I've been wondering, what's the deal with Kit? Even putting aside how uncommon it is for Tails to get a rival, I notice we haven't gotten a whole lot on him compared to Surge.

Like, you can see an odd non-correspondence across what we've seen thus far: we heard a few hints of her existence out of universe, she got the first overt talk up beyond the standard design reveal since Tangle(?!), and she's been emphasized in a number of images from covers to the doodles that accompanied the artists notes.

Granted, this is could be the warranted highlighting of another Sonic Rival as well as the first new female villain and she is the first major character introduced in a dedicated miniseries. But where things get interesting is when you put aside and then compare her to Kit.

I suppose this could transition into a more serious review on Tails' usage in this comic, now that I think about it, but Kit has very little showing off and still has yet to receive a similar insight; outside of the cover for Part 1(which was notably very different in focus and tone compared to most of the other drafts), he's either being somewhat purposefully overshadowed, off to the side, or simply not within view. And yet the in-universe story has done infinitely more to set him up compared to his sister, which combined with the afformentioned cover, [someone pointing out on a previous page that] the Miniseries is supposed to be starting pretty soon, and now the new cover invoking American Sonic 2 imagery is a noticeable distinction.

It really makes you wonder if there's some obfuscation going on here

[Kuzu]

It's not all that surprising when you think about history; all of Sonic's rivals tend to get top billing which I'm assuming is because they're meant to be compared to the main hero of the franchise. Tails has always been seen as just Sonic's sidekick and very rarely gets a chance to shine on his own compared to the latter. So it just stands to reason that Surge and Kit, being their counterparts, would follow the same suite? 

Like, of course fans are going to care about a new Sonic rival than a new Tails rival; Surge's design just has more personality to it than Kit's, which I'm assuming is deliberate to mirror Sonic & Tails' dynamic. I wonder if Kit's whole deal is that he really doesn't want to fight and just live his own life, but is of course dragged into a conflict by both Starline and Surge. 

[SkyHorizon]

20 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Then clearly you weren't around during the Adventure Era, when that described Amy to a T. 

I was. And it didn't.

20 hours ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

You know, I was wary of you when you first joined this forum. And good to get confirmation you're an asshole. Enjoy the Ignored list ^^ 

Uhm, I... really don't know why you reacted this way. If I have offended you somehow, I apologize. I know I'm kinda blunt with my way of discussing, so I understand that some people may be more sensitive about it (also, English isn't my native language and some way of speaking ARE in fact different). Anyway, I didn't want to offend you, I just wanted to point out some contradictions in your sentences.

That said, you saying that you're "wary of me when I joined" makes me think that you have some kind of grudge against me for some reason (that I really don't understand because I do not dislike you in any way) and, if you have some remarks towards me, feel free to say it. I'm opened to constructive criticism.

[MetalSkulkBane]

25 minutes ago, SkyHorizon said:

I was. And it didn't.

You know, discussion is based on saying arguments, not "nu-un, you're wrong" and ending your post.

if in your opinion Adventure Amy was NOT exited and emotional civilian, introduced through Sonic to amazing world of adventures and willing to break personal space of people she likes, then please explain who she was.

I don't even think that Amy and Tangle are that similar. In my opinion stuff above describes both girl, but If this was My Little Pony, Amy would be Kindness and Tangle Friendship. Amy filled with empathy for other, while Tangle is super positive and friendly. That's not the same thing. If Tangle was in SA2, she would punch Shadow rather than try to talk to him, because jerk is a jerk for her. But SA1-2 Amy wasn't one note saint, in fact most of the time she acted in self-centered way (getting distracted by Twinkle Park or being annoyed that no one pays attention to her) only to later remember what's really important and doing the right thing.

But YOU didn't said to @Kaotic Kanine. Just said "nah, I don't see it" which is the most frustrating answer one can get, especially one poured a lot of though and time into their argument.

[CertifiedNobody]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Like, of course fans are going to care about a new Sonic rival than a new Tails rival; Surge's design just has more personality to it than Kit's, which I'm assuming is deliberate to mirror Sonic & Tails' dynamic. I wonder if Kit's whole deal is that he really doesn't want to fight and just live his own life, but is of course dragged into a conflict by both Starline and Surge. 

I've been thinking for a while they might invert the dynamic and make Kit and Surge's relationship tenuous at best, and him having a sense of superiority over Surge.

Personally I hope Kit doesn't get redeemed. We've gone though the whole "Enemy turned ally" thing with  Knuckles, Shadow, Chaos, Jet, Gemerl, Shard, and Silver already, and the current lineup of villains is greatly outnumbered by the heroes. If the Deadly SIx make up the majority of the current rogue's gallery, there's a problem.

[DabigRG]

44 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It's not all that surprising when you think about history; all of Sonic's rivals tend to get top billing which I'm assuming is because they're meant to be compared to the main hero of the franchise. Tails has always been seen as just Sonic's sidekick and very rarely gets a chance to shine on his own compared to the latter. So it just stands to reason that Surge and Kit, being their counterparts, would follow the same suite? 

Like, of course fans are going to care about a new Sonic rival than a new Tails rival; Surge's design just has more personality to it than Kit's, which I'm assuming is deliberate to mirror Sonic & Tails' dynamic.

Thats just it though-- while it does fit the obvious parallel from a game marketing standpoint, there's also a key difference in that this is the comic and they're being introduced together creates an interesting distinction with the other characters in both the comics and the in games. 

I won't pretend to be familiar with the presentation of many games let alone the Classic ones, but Tails being introduced in the sequel had the punctuating effect of emphasizing him in some regards. The manuals notably dedicate a chunk of their stories to introducing him and establishing his complimenting of Sonic, with the official revealing that he's an bullied orphan who painted the Tornado after managing to tail Sonic in wow and the American one notably credits him with the invention of the Spin Dash due to wanting to immitate Sonic's base Spin. Despite or rather because of his role as sidekick, Tails is usually given a slice of the iconography whenever he's a notable feature.

But getting closer to home here is their uniqueness to almost every other IDW character in contrast, who were generally revealed shortly before the story they debuted in released. This typically came with two angles of their final designs, their names, a few words on what they're generally gonna be like, and the promotion of when they will be seen in the comic. But what stands out even more than is how, with a select few other exceptions, they were almost always a singular feature within a greater article due to being the only important character being revealed.

Rough and Tumble being revealed together makes sense as an exception because they are an explicit duo who Flynn himself once acknowledged as feeling like one dumb character split into two for effect(so, Scratch and Grounder's origin?) as well a suiting their brutes with a brotherly bond concept. Plus they like the Zeti are the same species(I think?) and they also always appear together, which may very easily become NOT the case in future issues.

Other exceptions include Jewel, Mimic, and Clutch, which comes with two conditions for that difference in kind. Mimic and Clutch are effectively just arc villains, being initially present in their first appearances to facilitate the stories being told around Whisper and Cream; as such, they weren't interesting or perhaps important enough to get such previews even aside from the tension leading to their reveal within the story. As for Jewel, she is notably one of the only cases of a character's design being revealed after their first appearance alongside Clutch iirc--a product of being designed as an accessory to another character introduced in a FCBD.

Where things get really provocative for numerous reasons is how Tangle got the biggest push by far before these two. As the first original character appearing in the first trade, not to mention being an admitted experiment that could have gone either way, Tangle is the only character who was shown off way in advance and got a massive amount of push that put even game characters to shame. This notably included numerous cover appearances that eschewed other game characters, obligatory mentions in interviews, and most importantly of all, an entire blurb dedicated to talking about her honestly rather simplistic characterization. While calling this disproportionate to her actual presence in the comic is an understatement, what makes it pop out even more in this context is that we now have another character who was given a similar treatment in Surge.

It may have only been in a personal post courtesy of the artist(which was also done for Mimic, the Diamond Cutters, and Clutch, incidentally), that's what makes it extra unusual--its not a official publication done with IDW by a third party. It raises the question of why give this character this degree of tell instead of letting the comic proper show what she's about in the plotline? Among the entire cast, Tangle's distinction was a study of stylishly hyping up something outside that actually has very little to her inside in regards to both character and story substance, which makes me think that Surge may be similar if inherently less so.

And then we come back to Kit, who like Tumble is a package deal with his sibling but with a very different species, personality, and to some extent role built-in. Him being shown off, talked about, or even just coming off much less is odd on the basis of them being a duo, but is perfectly in line with how most of the other comic characters were presented in contrast to the relevance they actually ended up having when they're on panel.

And lastly, there's the fact that his powerset just stands out a lot more: the final cover for Imposters part one, while the best in saving a proper unveiling of the characters for later, is also notably the only time Kit stood out thus far and while he is relatively front n' centered, it's also due in large part to his hydrokinesis. Water is probably mid tier in terms of Elemental Powers due to being more variable than Earth, but harder to represent as  impactful compared to fire, electricity, ice, or even metal. It's usually there as a nongood guy power if they are already taken and in this series, it likewise has only really been utilized by characters. The first is Marine, who's ambiguous blast capable of flinching a mech powerful enough to take on two super forms happens to be a greenish blue color; the second, on the other hand, is none other than Chaos, the proclaimed god of Destruction.

I remember that when these two were first seen on said cover, people raised an eyebrow due to that commonality and some even speculated whether there may have been an intented replication involved by Starline that may have greater connotations for his plans. It's probably just a coincidence, but that sort of detail does make Kit stand out more in one other field compared to Surge, who is a far more common Psycho Electro villainess with an admittedly extra similarity to a notable character from this comic's predecessor.

Ultimately though, it's probably just an inevitable sign of what is not being said catching more attention than what actually is. At the very least, it's something interesting to think about right now.

44 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I wonder if Kit's whole deal is that he really doesn't want to fight and just live his own life, but is of course dragged into a conflict by both Starline and Surge. 

That's sort of a path I considered as a probable arc for him as well.

[dbzfan7]

I'm curious as to when Starline got what he needed to create Surge from Sonic. Did the story show that off? 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

I don't even think that Amy and Tangle are that similar. In my opinion stuff above describes both girl, but If this was My Little Pony, Amy would be Kindness and Tangle Friendship. Amy filled with empathy for other, while Tangle is super positive and friendly. That's not the same thing. If Tangle was in SA2, she would punch Shadow rather than try to talk to him, because jerk is a jerk for her. But SA1-2 Amy wasn't one note saint, in fact most of the time she acted in self-centered way (getting distracted by Twinkle Park or being annoyed that no one pays attention to her) only to later remember what's really important and doing the right thing.

But YOU didn't said to @Kaotic Kanine. Just said "nah, I don't see it" which is the most frustrating answer one can get, especially one poured a lot of though and time into their argument.

It's funny you made that parallel because I was just thinking the other day that if Sonic was Fim, Amy would be Pinkie and Cream would be Fluttershy.

I should point out that Tangelo punching Shadow in the face kinda jars against what you're talking about there. Then again, both of the longer descriptors still apply to Amy around that time as well, so shrug

37 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

I've been thinking for a while they might invert the dynamic and make Kit and Surge's relationship tenuous at best, and him having a sense of superiority over Surge.

Personally I hope Kit doesn't get redeemed. We've gone though the whole "Enemy turned ally" thing with  Knuckles, Shadow, Chaos, Jet, Gemerl, Shard, and Silver already, and the current lineup of villains is greatly outnumbered by the heroes. If the Deadly SIx make up the majority of the current rogue's gallery, there's a problem.

[strike]"Yeah, six of em"[strike/]

Yeah, that's actually something I felt kinda holds them back and resulted in their lesser performance in Zeti Hunt compare to Metal Virus Finale: they're technically six of them, but they inherently operate as a group more often than not. Most of them can work outside of that when given the opportunity and each have just enough of a basis to function differently as villains, but with how somewhat hamstrung they've been at times, well, let's just say there's a reason the events between those two arcs is one of the only times you could have Zomom appear without the others and get away with it.

13 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'm curious as to when Starline got what he needed to create Surge from Sonic. Did the story show that off? 

From what I recall, no, not at all--thats part of my point.

He spoke highly of Tails, sought him out, and lamented not having the full specimen while still considering the few hairs he grabbed a major step forward in realizing his plans. So it made perfect sense that said plans involve making some sort of genetic clone from him.

By contrast, he always just considered Sonic a problem who he initially deemed the sole factor of the global status quo and so just wanted to get rid of him swiftly & offhandedly. Barring a retcon or reveal of info we weren't privy too, Surge basically comes out of nowhere; the indication of her existence was the fact that Starline had two bacta tanks in his lair, which could have easily been anything from a second fox to not-Nails to his platypussy answer to Omeletta.

[dbzfan7]

12 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

From what I recall, no, not at all--thats part of my point.

He spoke highly of Tails, sought him out, and lamented not having the full specimen while still considering the few hairs he grabbed a major step forward in realizing his plans. So it made perfect sense that said plans involve making some sort of genetic clone from him.

By contrast, he always just considered Sonic a problem who he initially deemed the sole factor of the global status quo and so just wanted to get rid of him swiftly & offhandedly. Barring a retcon or reveal of info we weren't privy too, Surge basically comes out of nowhere; the indication of her existence was the fact that Starline had two bacta tanks in his lair, which could have easily been anything from a second fox to not-Nails to his platypussy answer to Omeletta.

That's honestly what bugged me. The story didn't really build make a deal of Sonic and making a genetic clone so it's weird. Perhaps this done on purpose to hide something about Kit that'll be very important.....or maybe not.

[Kuzu]

33 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Thats just it though-- while it does fit the obvious parallel from a game marketing standpoint, there's also a key difference in that this is the comic and they're being introduced together creates an interesting distinction with the other characters in both the comics and the in games. 

I won't pretend to be familiar with the presentation of many games let alone the Classic ones, but Tails being introduced in the sequel had the punctuating effect of emphasizing him in some regards. The manuals notably dedicate a chunk of their stories to introducing him and establishing his complimenting of Sonic, with the official revealing that he's an bullied orphan who painted the Tornado after managing to tail Sonic in wow and the American one notably credits him with the invention of the Spin Dash due to wanting to immitate Sonic's base Spin. Despite or rather because of his role as sidekick, Tails is usually given a slice of the iconography whenever he's a notable feature.

But getting closer to home here is their uniqueness to almost every other IDW character in contrast, who were generally revealed shortly before the story they debuted in released. This typically came with two angles of their final designs, their names, a few words on what they're generally gonna be like, and the promotion of when they will be seen in the comic. But what stands out even more than is how, with a select few other exceptions, they were almost always a singular feature within a greater article due to being the only important character being revealed.

Rough and Tumble being revealed together makes sense as an exception because they are an explicit duo who Flynn himself once acknowledged as feeling like one dumb character split into two for effect(so, Scratch and Grounder's origin?) as well a suiting their brutes with a brotherly bond concept. Plus they like the Zeti are the same species(I think?) and they also always appear together, which may very easily become NOT the case in future issues.

Other exceptions include Jewel, Mimic, and Clutch, which comes with two conditions for that difference in kind. Mimic and Clutch are effectively just arc villains, being initially present in their first appearances to facilitate the stories being told around Whisper and Cream; as such, they weren't interesting or perhaps important enough to get such previews even aside from the tension leading to their reveal within the story. As for Jewel, she is notably one of the only cases of a character's design being revealed after their first appearance alongside Clutch iirc--a product of being designed as an accessory to another character introduced in a FCBD.

Where things get really provocative for numerous reasons is how Tangle got the biggest push by far before these two. As the first original character appearing in the first trade, not to mention being an admitted experiment that could have gone either way, Tangle is the only character who was shown off way in advance and got a massive amount of push that put even game characters to shame. This notably included numerous cover appearances that eschewed other game characters, obligatory mentions in interviews, and most importantly of all, an entire blurb dedicated to talking about her honestly rather simplistic characterization. While calling this disproportionate to her actual presence in the comic is an understatement, what makes it pop out even more in this context is that we now have another character who was given a similar treatment in Surge.

It may have only been in a personal post courtesy of the artist(which was also done for Mimic, the Diamond Cutters, and Clutch, incidentally), that's what makes it extra unusual--its not a official publication done with IDW by a third party. It raises the question of why give this character this degree of tell instead of letting the comic proper show what she's about in the plotline? Among the entire cast, Tangle's distinction was a study of stylishly hyping up something outside that actually has very little to her inside in regards to both character and story substance, which makes me think that Surge may be similar if inherently less so.

And then we come back to Kit, who like Tumble is a package deal with his sibling but with a very different species, personality, and to some extent role built-in. Him being shown off, talked about, or even just coming off much less is odd on the basis of them being a duo, but is perfectly in line with how most of the other comic characters were presented in contrast to the relevance they actually ended up having when they're on panel.

And lastly, there's the fact that his powerset just stands out a lot more: the final cover for Imposters part one, while the best in saving a proper unveiling of the characters for later, is also notably the only time Kit stood out thus far and while he is relatively front n' centered, it's also due in large part to his hydrokinesis. Water is probably mid tier in terms of Elemental Powers due to being more variable than Earth, but harder to represent as  impactful compared to fire, electricity, ice, or even metal. It's usually there as a nongood guy power if they are already taken and in this series, it likewise has only really been utilized by characters. The first is Marine, who's ambiguous blast capable of flinching a mech powerful enough to take on two super forms happens to be a greenish blue color; the second, on the other hand, is none other than Chaos, the proclaimed god of Destruction.

I remember that when these two were first seen on said cover, people raised an eyebrow due to that commonality and some even speculated whether there may have been an intented replication involved by Starline that may have greater connotations for his plans. It's probably just a coincidence, but that sort of detail does make Kit stand out more in one other field compared to Surge, who is a far more common Psycho Electro villainess with an admittedly extra similarity to a notable character from this comic's predecessor.

Ultimately though, it's probably just an inevitable sign of what is not being said catching more attention than what actually is. At the very least, it's something interesting to think about right now.

That's sort of a path I considered as a probable arc for him as well.

I mean, it's all pretty subjective at the end of the day.  Sure, Tails gets treated as an iconic character for the most part, but he is still tied to Sonic's hip as his sidekick. Or to put it another way, Sonic is way less tied to Tails than the opposite. Sonic can stand out on his own or with another character, but Tails rarely if ever gets that distinction. He was designed as a complimentary of Sonic but probably not a character that could stand out on his own or even on the same level as Sonic. So it creates a bit of a dissonance where one of the most major and iconic characters is mostly an accessory to the main character.

With the comic characters though; I think the writers are just trying to build up interest and hype in order to get readers excited. Like you said, Tangle was an experiment to see how people would react to a character of her nature. Now her personality and character being relatively simplistic probably does feel disproportionate to the amount of build up she got, but it's honestly just marketing at the end of the day. marketing and what's actually in the story are two completely separate things. 

Surge's bigger push than Kit is mostly because both fans and her creators just seemingly prefer her design over his, so of course they're gonna put more focus and attention on the fan-favorite. It honestly feels somewhat similar to what happened to Shadow and Rouge (Debuted in the same exact game) and Silver and Blaze (Debuted around the same time), where the Shadow and SIlver got way bigger pushes than Rouge or Blaze ever did. Granted, Shadow and Silver ended up being major characters in their respective debuts compared to Tangle, sooooo I dunno.

5 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's honestly what bugged me. The story didn't really build make a deal of Sonic and making a genetic clone so it's weird. Perhaps this done on purpose to hide something about Kit that'll be very important.....or maybe not.

Maybe Surge was a late edition? Cynically, the creators probably felt Tails having his own rival but not Sonic wouldn't make the story stand out, so Surge was created after Kit? 

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I should point out that Tangelo punching Shadow in the face kinda jars against what you're talking about there. Then again, both of the longer descriptors still apply to Amy around that time as well, so shrug

Ok, I can clarify.

Tangle is a very simple person. She's super friendly, because she has no "brakes", no restrains. She befriends Belle because she has no bias towards weird robots. She's made of positivity and excitement towards everything.
But that means she's straightforward. That's why Mimic could so easily manipulate her. She's easy to read and predict. And that's why I think she wouldn't even consider talking to Gamma or Shadow like Amy did.

Meanwhile Amy is very emotional. Anger, love, kindness, sadness. She's not super-duper optimist like Tangle, she's just kind. In older games her good heart could been distracted by, say, really wanting to be with Sonic. These days she's mature (and bit boring) just being voice of reason.
Amy sees the layers in people, because she has layers. Because sometimes she gets angry and pulls a hammer, so she knows not every 'bad guy' is bad. That's why she befriended Bark in classic special. Or decided to call Rouges in #25 despite them being "bad guys".
(And BTW, I get that her constant chase after Sonic can paint her as incorrigible optimist, but that' s fueled by love to most wonderful person on the planet. When bad thinks happen, like Mecha Sally, Amy gets sad. Tangle bounces back, trying even harder, like in her mini issue 3.)

Going back to idea of Amy Vs Tangle in #24. Amy COULD do that sacrifice but the emotional undertones would be different. Subtly, but different.
- Tangle showed that in absolute lowest point in the story, she still believed in happy ending. Her optimism was shinning beacon in darkest times. But at the same time seeing this adorable positive character fall was so hear breaking.
- Amy isn't THAT optimistic, but she loves Sonic. She always belief things will work out, because she believes, no, she KNOWS Sonic will save the day. So if she did that sacrifice, it would be more about bound between the two, rather than general positivity that even in darkest hour, things can work out.

[Kuzu]

I think its more accurate to say that Tangle doesn't really look at things past the surface level; she judges by immediate appearances and actions. Or rather, she just acts purely on her own instincts and how she's feeling at the time. She's pure Id essentially. 

Amy isn't really like that at all, at least not usually. Its really when she was chasing after Sonic that was she so one-track minded, but that character trait has seemingly faded over time, so her general emotional maturity is left. Amy judges people more on their feelings than their actions, hence she was willing to stick up for Gamma in spite of his servitude to Eggman and encouraging him to follow his own path separate from Eggman and appealed to Shadow's emotions to get him to act. 

Hence why I said earlier that Amy is more emotionally intelligent than Tangle, which is why these comparisons being made make no sense to me. Tangle's final moment in issue #24 isn't about her emotionally connecting with Sonic, just reinforcing that her overall positive attitude and that she's gonna keep on fighting until the end. It's a completely different context than anything Amy has done. 

 

The way I see it, Tangle's character is more about being "Fun personified" who always stays positive no matter what, while Amy's is more about the Heart who connects with people on an emotional level. 

[DabigRG]

16 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

They’ve done so to the game cast on more than one occasion, in the games and in the comics—does the whole Blaze/Silver/Nega plot hole started in Sonic 06 ring any bells?

 

To be fair, that's only a plot hole because they ended up not following through with whatever game spanning plans they had at the time.

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

That's honestly what bugged me. The story didn't really build make a deal of Sonic and making a genetic clone so it's weird. Perhaps this done on purpose to hide something about Kit that'll be very important.....or maybe not.

Like I said, it's kinda like if Tangle and Whisper were introduced at the same time.

You know, minus their existence being built up due to their original introduction being changed.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, it's all pretty subjective at the end of the day.  Sure, Tails gets treated as an iconic character for the most part, but he is still tied to Sonic's hip as his sidekick. Or to put it another way, Sonic is way less tied to Tails than the opposite. Sonic can stand out on his own or with another character, but Tails rarely if ever gets that distinction. He was designed as a complimentary of Sonic but probably not a character that could stand out on his own or even on the same level as Sonic. So it creates a bit of a dissonance where one of the most major and iconic characters is mostly an accessory to the main character.

Sho nuff

At the very least, I suppose you can still say he has almost enough to function on his own on the odd occasion where he separates for a bit.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

With the comic characters though; I think the writers are just trying to build up interest and hype in order to get readers excited. Like you said, Tangle was an experiment to see how people would react to a character of her nature. Now her personality and character being relatively simplistic probably does feel disproportionate to the amount of build up she got, but it's honestly just marketing at the end of the day. marketing and what's actually in the story are two completely separate things. 

Yeah and I honestly tried not to hold it against her too much since it's not really the characters fault. That and I occasionally felt a little bad that something just wasn't clicking with this one character that everyone else seemed to be enjoying in spite of those issues.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Surge's bigger push than Kit is mostly because both fans and her creators just seemingly prefer her design over his, so of course they're gonna put more focus and attention on the fan-favorite.

Yeeeah, I suppose that's a rather fair assessment. As mixed as I am on these characters, Surge does at leats have this hate-love quality to her while Kit is a bit more intriguing perhaps because he doesn't superficially jump out at you.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

It honestly feels somewhat similar to what happened to Shadow and Rouge (Debuted in the same exact game) and Silver and Blaze (Debuted around the same time), where the Shadow and SIlver got way bigger pushes than Rouge or Blaze ever did. Granted, Shadow and Silver ended up being major characters in their respective debuts compared to Tangle, sooooo I dunno.

There are other reasons why we compare her to Amy and Sonic beyond the obvious.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Maybe Surge was a late edition? Cynically, the creators probably felt Tails having his own rival but not Sonic wouldn't make the story stand out, so Surge was created after Kit? 

That's sorta what it feels like. That and Starline running around with only Kit would probably feel off, more than it kinda does anyway.

It'd be sorta cool if they pulled a Boom!Cubot in the book proper, though.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I think its more accurate to say that Tangle doesn't really look at things past the surface level; she judges by immediate appearances and actions. Or rather, she just acts purely on her own instincts and how she's feeling at the time. She's pure Id essentially. 

Amy isn't really like that at all, at least not usually. Its really when she was chasing after Sonic that was she so one-track minded, but that character trait has seemingly faded over time, so her general emotional maturity is left. Amy judges people more on their feelings than their actions, hence she was willing to stick up for Gamma in spite of his servitude to Eggman and encouraging him to follow his own path separate from Eggman and appealed to Shadow's emotions to get him to act. 

Hence why I said earlier that Amy is more emotionally intelligent than Tangle, which is why these comparisons being made make no sense to me. Tangle's final moment in issue #24 isn't about her emotionally connecting with Sonic, just reinforcing that her overall positive attitude and that she's gonna keep on fighting until the end. It's a completely different context than anything Amy has done. 

 

The way I see it, Tangle's character is more about being "Fun personified" who always stays positive no matter what, while Amy's is more about the Heart who connects with people on an emotional level. 

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Ok, I can clarify.

Tangle is a very simple person. She's super friendly, because she has no "brakes", no restrains. She befriends Belle because she has no bias towards weird robots. She's made of positivity and excitement towards everything.
But that means she's straightforward. That's why Mimic could so easily manipulate her. She's easy to read and predict. And that's why I think she wouldn't even consider talking to Gamma or Shadow like Amy did.

Meanwhile Amy is very emotional. Anger, love, kindness, sadness. She's not super-duper optimist like Tangle, she's just kind. In older games her good heart could been distracted by, say, really wanting to be with Sonic. These days she's mature (and bit boring) just being voice of reason.
Amy sees the layers in people, because she has layers. Because sometimes she gets angry and pulls a hammer, so she knows not every 'bad guy' is bad. That's why she befriended Bark in classic special. Or decided to call Rouges in #25 despite them being "bad guys".
(And BTW, I get that her constant chase after Sonic can paint her as incorrigible optimist, but that' s fueled by love to most wonderful person on the planet. When bad thinks happen, like Mecha Sally, Amy gets sad. Tangle bounces back, trying even harder, like in her mini issue 3.)

Going back to idea of Amy Vs Tangle in #24. Amy COULD do that sacrifice but the emotional undertones would be different. Subtly, but different.
- Tangle showed that in absolute lowest point in the story, she still believed in happy ending. Her optimism was shinning beacon in darkest times. But at the same time seeing this adorable positive character fall was so hear breaking.
- Amy isn't THAT optimistic, but she loves Sonic. She always belief things will work out, because she believes, no, she KNOWS Sonic will save the day. So if she did that sacrifice, it would be more about bound between the two, rather than general positivity that even in darkest hour, things can work out.

That makes more sense.

 

[Kazhnuz]

I don't think that Surge is a "late addition", as both Surge/Starline/Kit where planified together, and I would be surprised that they decide to add Kit without Surge after both being pushed to later (especially as IIRC Flynn teased both together when he started talking about them). I think it's more a result that the teasing/construction was done on arc made by two different writers.

Or maybe Starline getting data/dna from Sonic was seen as redundant/not useful enough to affect as much the rythm or another in story reason.

[CertifiedNobody]

How much of an impact will the second movie have on the comics? We know they're doing a collection of Sonic and Tails stories and a prequel comic. But a lot of the marketing (such as the leaked Fall Guys skin and the upcoming Jakks Pacific Movie Sonic & Movie Knuckles 2-pack) has been pushing Knuckles, I could see Sega requesting greater emphasis on the Sonic and Knuckles rivalry to appeal to movie fans, and more stories about Team Sonic as a whole.

[Kuzu]

About as much as influence as the first movie (which is to say, none at all) 

[Kazhnuz]

There is already movies prequels and a Sonic-and-Tails themed compilation, so I think it already have some marketing from the comic front.

Moreover it'll all depends of if the movies really affect Sonic Team-made stuff.  And about that we don't really have elements that would prove it'll really affect things except some bonus and their marketing strategy (using the visibility boost from the movies and targeting children that have seen the movie). And IIRC, SEGA doesn't seems for the moment to really ask for stories from the comic.

EDIT: And to be frank, when written by Flynn, Sonic and Knuckles bicker every time they see each other so SEGA asking for more rivalry from these two wouldn't really change anythings more than having an arc with Knuckles, something that'll already eventually appear as he is an important character.

[CertifiedNobody]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

About as much as influence as the first movie (which is to say, none at all) 

The first movie was expected to flop so they didn't have much merchandise planned in general, and it also didn't really have much to influence in the first place. The only thing that could be added was Warp RIngs, which weren't really a selling point of the movie anyways. Sonic Movie 2 is being pushed much harder than the original was, and Tails and Knuckles are pretty much the entire point of the movie.

With the first movie, viewers who saw Sonic fighting Eggman would pick up the comics and see exactly that. With the sequel, they'll see Knuckles being an outright villain and then the three teaming up, but when the hop over to the comics, the characters that were treated like a big deal for months will often be secondary to characters they've never even heard of.

Whether you think they should or not, there's plenty of reason for Sega to want the comics to at least partially represent the movies. It happens with Marvel and DC whenever they have a big movie. Obscure characters get redesigned and relaunched, known characters get changes like Spider-Man briefly gaining organic webs to match the 2000s movies.

11 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

There is already movies prequels and a Sonic-and-Tails themed compilation, so I think it already have some marketing from the comic front. IIRC, SEGA doesn't seems for the moment to really ask for stories from the comic,

Moreover it'll all depends of if the movies really affect Sonic Team-made stuff.  And about that we don't really have elements that would prove it'll really affect things except some bonus and their marketing strategy (using the visibility boost from the movies and targeting children that have seen the movie).

 

The movies are possibly the biggest thing to ever happen to the franchise. They aren't going to stop with a prequel miniseries & a small collection

And the movie has been affecting them. Colors Ultimate only exists because the movie was a hit.