Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Kazhnuz]

It's not that things "shift" that much, it's that they're simply different stories. There where a big focus on original character post-MV because they were the core of the current story that is "Starline is twisting the legacy of Mr. Tinker to try to proove a point to Eggman". In the Metal Virus, official character had a bigger impact than original as the story was about the entire universe reacting to the Metal Virus.

[Rabbitearsblog]

7 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

It's not that things "shift" that much, it's that they're simply different stories. There where a big focus on original character post-MV because they were the core of the current story that is "Starline is twisting the legacy of Mr. Tinker to try to proove a point to Eggman". In the Metal Virus, official character had a bigger impact than original as the story was about the entire universe reacting to the Metal Virus.

I do wonder if the next few story arcs will focus on the game characters this point forward, unless they introduce another new character to the series.

[CertifiedNobody]

28 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I do wonder if the next few story arcs will focus on the game characters this point forward, unless they introduce another new character to the series.

Ian's said he has no plans on introducing new characters, so unless Evan has something planned, which I doubt, we're probably going to just focus on the game characters and the existing IDW characters

[Rabbitearsblog]

21 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Ian's said he has no plans on introducing new characters, so unless Evan has something planned, which I doubt, we're probably going to just focus on the game characters and the existing IDW characters

Interesting...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Personally, I’d rather Sega let them reuse and retool older characters from other series like Cosmo or even recent ones like Sticks from Boom than making any more new characters. If they own them, they shouldn’t be a problem, as the comic team has found ways to adapt them.

Plus it saves them time and resource in developing something for newer arcs. It would be a great way to bring old fans that remember them, while making them fresh for newer fans like they did the Chaotix.

But since they’re going with that Classic/Modern split, it’s unknown what they’ll do in that realm.

[Rabbitearsblog]

15 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Personally, I’d rather Sega let them reuse and retool older characters from other series like Cosmo or even recent ones like Sticks from Boom than making any more new characters. If they own them, they shouldn’t be a problem, as the comic team has found ways to adapt them.

Plus it saves them time and resource in developing something for newer arcs. It would be a great way to bring old fans that remember them, while making them fresh for newer fans like they did the Chaotix.

But since they’re going with that Classic/Modern split, it’s unknown what they’ll do in that realm.

The only problem though is that SEGA rarely want to use their old characters, despite the fact that there's a lot of potential to use said characters.  Like for example, I never would have thought that the comics would make the Deadly Six into interesting characters, despite the fact that they gained a lot of controversy through Sonic Lost World and I'm glad that they really put Silver and Blaze to good use, when they haven't been seen in the games for awhile (well, at least in Blaze's case. Did she show up in Sonic Forces)?

[Leebo4]

21 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

The only problem though is that SEGA rarely want to use their old characters, despite the fact that there's a lot of potential to use said characters.  Like for example, I never would have thought that the comics would make the Deadly Six into interesting characters, despite the fact that they gained a lot of controversy through Sonic Lost World and I'm glad that they really put Silver and Blaze to good use, when they haven't been seen in the games for awhile (well, at least in Blaze's case. Did she show up in Sonic Forces)?

She didnt

[Silvereyes]

I mean, I'm bias because I love Tangle and Whisper, and really enjoying the skunk brothers, Starline, Mimic, Jewel, but I think the IDW run, or really, every incarnation of Sonic should be bringing stuff like new characters to the table. Yeah, it sucks that when that incarnation ends, there is a very good chance the original characters end with them, but I think you need it to keep things interesting, and it often can allow new scenarios and new relationships to form.

Granted, I do think there should be at least a bit of a balance. I am hoping Sonic Prime doesn't do what Boom did and basically ditch the entire secondary cast, I am hoping we get some more secondary characters in that, even if for just single episodes.

[DabigRG]

18 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

My only major complaint with the comic before now is the large focus on new protagonists. I'm starting to see that shift as well.

 

17 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

Oh yeah.  It seemed like that for the past few issues, it's been focusing too much on the new characters and not enough on the game characters themselves.  It seems like things are starting to shift, which is a good thing.

That's only because they stretched out Belle's original story to make her an overarching element of Year 3.

The other characters besides Starline only pop up as needed every once in a while, with Tangle in particular having always been a Guest Fighter outside of the first miniseries and her issue in Metal Virus.

 

3 hours ago, CertifiedNobody said:

Ian's said he has no plans on introducing new characters, so unless Evan has something planned, which I doubt, we're probably going to just focus on the game characters and the existing IDW characters

Makes sense. Everyone but Tangle and maybe Jewel were introduced to fill a specific role or archetype the game cast doesn't quite cover.

 

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Personally, I’d rather Sega let them reuse and retool older characters from other series like Cosmo or even recent ones like Sticks from Boom than making any more new characters. If they own them, they shouldn’t be a problem, as the comic team has found ways to adapt them.

Plus it saves them time and resource in developing something for newer arcs. It would be a great way to bring old fans that remember them, while making them fresh for newer fans like they did the Chaotix.

But since they’re going with that Classic/Modern split, it’s unknown what they’ll do in that realm.

We know at least Sticks is allowed given they've only objected to specific ways of introducing her, so it's possible.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

Plus it saves them time and resource in developing something for newer arcs.

If they have to write new stories/lore for them, make new designs for them, and pitch them to sega for approval and go through the entire revision process, it probably isn't saving them that much time or resources.
 

[Kuzu]

As someone said, the focus on newer characters is because the story is about them at the moment. The other characters come in when the story is about them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

If they have to write new stories/lore for them, make new designs for them, and pitch them to sega for approval and go through the entire revision process, it probably isn't saving them that much time or resources.
 

It most certainly does save them time and resources considering they wouldn’t be working from scratch.

They already have a baseline that not difficult to work with, and their personalities and traits are versatile enough that there’s not that much to change—they did just that with back in Archie with characters ranging from AoSTH, new stories/lore and new designs.

The only roadblock is Sega. Aside from that I don’t know how you think the very base of retooling them isn’t a time saver unless you’re just that lacking in creativity. You could very quickly come up with a IDW Cosmo on the spot than you would all new characters entirely out of a vacuum.

[Wraith]

48 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

The only roadblock is Sega. Aside from that I don’t know how you think the very base of retooling them isn’t a time saver unless you’re just that lacking in creativity. You could very quickly come up with a IDW Cosmo on the spot than you would all new characters entirely.

Someone from the comics team liked my last post so I feel like this discussion is already over, but let's humor this line of thought for a second using Cosmo as an example since she's probably the most "Sonic Team friendly" character.

"The only obstacle is Sega" is kind of a silly statement to make because getting Sega's approval is where basically all other roadblocks spring from. If they were allowed to just do whatever they wanted their jobs would be way easier, but that wasn't the point I was making. I'm not questioning whether it can be done. I have notes upon notes about re-imagining characters and lore from spinoffs and AUs to fit into the main Sonic universe, so I'd go as far as to say there are many ways to do it properly. I was challenging the notion that it'd be easier given the circumstances they have to work with.

IIRC Sonic Team designed the character 20 years ago when the visual language of the series was different. There's a chance they request alterations that, if significant enough, would be as much work as designing a new character if not moreso, since treading the line of respecting a character's roots and modernizing their design is it's own can of worms.

Assuming that Sega is charitable and allows her in with her design unaltered, you'd have to change the design of the Metarex since nothing post Black Knight uses that humanoid anime supervillain look, you'd have to build her character arc around something else since a romance would Tails wouldn't be allowed anymore(which would probably be for the better tbf but we'll save shitting on Sonic X for another thread.)

You'll have to execute it in a way that doesn't alienate old fans of the character, too. Otherwise what's the point? And as much as I love post reboot Archie, it wasn't always great about this. I like what they did with Breezie but Ian might as well have left Madonna for dead as far as I was concerned. Neither of these characters really are all that similar to their previous iterations either, so someone would be well within their right to feel alienated based on that alone!

Is all this simpler than Ian writing a three sentence blurb for Surge and the artists basically freestyling something together without the baggage of a previous iteration to worry about? Is pulling a character from a more complicated version of Sonic's world and importing them into IDW's more simplified lore really easier than just designing a character for that world? I don't think so. It's definitely possible to pull it off, but I wouldn't undersell the work involved.

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Someone from the comics team liked my last post so I feel like this discussion is already over,

And I’m familiar enough with that person before he became part of that team that I couldn’t care any less what he likes about your post.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

 

but let's humor this line of thought for a second using Cosmo as an example since she's probably the most "Sonic Team friendly" character.

"The only obstacle is Sega" is kind of a silly statement to make because getting Sega's approval is where basically all other roadblocks spring from.
 

So basically you’re telling me the exact same thing I just told you that you just called silly. Isn’t that silly?

Everyone is very familiar with how Sega’s approval is the main obstacle for the past few years. That’s why I singled that part out as the only issue and not the process of retooling them, because the retooling is the easy part by comparison.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

If they were allowed to just do whatever they wanted their jobs would be way easier, but that wasn't the point I was making. I'm not questioning whether it can be done. I have notes upon notes about re-imagining characters and lore from spinoffs and AUs to fit into the main Sonic universe, so I'd go as far as to say there are many ways to do it properly. I was challenging the notion that it'd be easier given the circumstances they have to work with.

Which again, everyone is aware of. So all you’re doing is preaching to the choir.

 

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

IIRC Sonic Team designed the character 20 years ago when the visual language of the series was different. There's a chance they request alterations that, if significant enough, would be as much work as designing a new character if not moreso, since treading the line of respecting a character's roots and modernizing their design is it's own can of worms.

Assuming that Sega is charitable and allows her in with her design unaltered, you'd have to change the design of the Metarex since nothing post Black Knight uses that humanoid anime supervillain look, you'd have to build her character arc around something else since a romance would Tails wouldn't be allowed anymore(which would probably be for the better tbf but we'll save shitting on Sonic X for another thread.)

Cool! Let them do that if they ever have the chance. I’d love see what they’d come up with.

 

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

And as much as I love post reboot Archie, it wasn't always great about this. I like what they did with Breezie but Ian might as well have left Madonna for dead as far as I was concerned. Neither of these characters really are all that similar to their previous iterations either, so someone would be well within their right to feel alienated based on that alone!

He could’ve left Madonna for dead, but she never saw the light of day to begin with. I don’t see the problem with bringing her out for something and retooling her the way he did. Not like she even had many fans to be alienated over her begin with. And considering her original role as Sonic’s girlfriend before being cut entire, you’re seriously going to imply people are alienated by Madonna not being Sonic’s love interest as intended? Because she literally had nothing else going on for her besides that, and after the mess that was Sonic 06 it shouldn’t be difficult to see why going back to that would be a bad risk on the subject of bringing her to life.

I may not have cared much for her initial role, but I’m glad Madonna was given a new lease of life anyway, and quite frankly she works better as GUN soldier than as Sonic’s potential love interest. And I’d like to see more with other scrapped characters in the same boat if the opportunity is there more so than I would a completely new character.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Is all this simpler than Ian writing a three sentence blurb for Surge and the artists basically freestyling something together without the baggage of a previous iteration to worry about? Is pulling a character from a more complicated version of Sonic's world and importing them into IDW's more simplified lore really easier than just designing a character for that world?
 

Yes. Yes, it is. It is as easy as it was to import Sonic and the gang into it with a more simplified lore, else how in the world did they accomplish bringing characters like Silver into it with his complicated background and baggage? (And just to cover this before it even starts, spare me the usual “he’s a game character” rebuttal, because that was not the question you asked.)
 

And the reason why it’s easy is because unlike when you design a new character for that world, you’re not designing them straight from scratch as you already have something to work with. Where you would need lots of references of some type to build that new character from the ground up, a character that is already made but outdated only needs a visual and background update to fit—simply put, one needs fewer materials than the other.

Considering you’d already know how a character like Cosmo looks, there’s not that much to change. If Sega wanted a revision, that would be one thing, but they’re not strangers to that going by how they did the Chaotix in Heroes (once again, spare me the “they’re game characters” rebuttal). And it wouldn’t be that hard to make a three sentence blurb for the new version that isn’t as complicated as their old version—and you’re more than welcome to challenge me with such a character if you want me to put my money where my mouth is to prove it, as there are characters outside of Sonic that are more complicated than Shadow who’ve been summarized with no more than a paragraph.

Since you would be starting fresh with them anyway, beyond Sega’s approval, it wouldn’t be as difficult when the most you’d be doing with them is changing, or rather simplifying if we’re going this route, their backgrounds in a new setting. Compared to making a whole new character from scratch—determining the species of the character, their color codes and outfits (if any), height and proportions, and physical capabilities/powers that make up their physiology; their sociology of how they lived, from the environment they grew up in to their position in society (or outside of it); and the psychology that’s forged from the combined sum of all of this that determines their personality and interactions with other characters; and then providing a name, whether thematic or normal, for that character; nevermind how all of which could be for naught if rejected and sent back to the drawing board—taking an already existing character like Cosmo or Sticks, and revising their designs to fit in IDW with a simplified background from their debut is a lot less work given that most of the above has already been done and pre-approved before you’ve even begun revising them for the new setting.

At the end of the day, there is no underselling of anything over the work that goes into the process than there is acknowledging that the difficult part is getting the approval to actually do the work to begin with. 

 

[Kazhnuz]

Making them from scratch isn't an herculean task to begin with, tbf (especially in Sonic : most of the ideas come from the initial concept). I would say that most of the time, we tend to overvalue the difficulty of making something from scratch vs reusing stuff. The adventage and the issue of both way of doing it make them goes in the "it depends" case. In one case, you have to get the initial idea, in the other case you have to select what you need from the original version.

I know that it's a boring answer, but what is actually the most difficult between creating from scratch things depends too much of each case to really say that something is easier, imo. Having "elements to work with" can be both a blessing and a curse in design, because it can make you fall in a big trap of finding the good amount of things to change and keep but give you some insight about what worked or not in another context. It's the question of adapting something to a context vs creating something for the exact context ( And it also depends of our creating process ! For some, working from a concept and developing it is easier, for some other it's easier to add blocks that'll fit together )

Because most of the time, you don't add a character just for adding a character, but for a precise purpose (especially in IDW where they don't try that much to "fill the world") - which is not always story-related. So if the character is the best fit for that purpose (and doesn't have other issue), of course it'll often be the best way. If it doesn't quite exactly fit, but would with some change, it's will depends.

 

Both are tho pretty doable (even if in some case of both strategy, you have to put up with a lot of drama if the character have a lot of baggage), and will depend of what the creator want to do, of each character, and of what you need. In a way, imo reusing vs adding is a part of the creation process (if we have stuff to reuse, ofc).

So I'm pretty neutral about this whole deal. Reaving some older character would be nice. But good expy created especially to fit their purpose could be nice too.

[Slashy]

I don't get the appeal of Surge. She is another Sonic-like antagonist which has already been done in the series before. She just comes off as Starline's Metal Sonic. I think her lightening powers are cool though.

[Red Hot Jack]

6 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I don't get the appeal of Surge. She is another Sonic-like antagonist which has already been done in the series before. She just comes off as Starline's Metal Sonic. I think her lightening powers are cool though.

Metal Sonic is just a killing machine though. Surge and Kit have a personality and identity crisis, are manipulated by their creator, they ponder their own existence, which I'm supposing is their appeal, plus their dynamic of star and sidekick. Surge is kind of a brat though.

[CertifiedNobody]

7 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I don't get the appeal of Surge. She is another Sonic-like antagonist which has already been done in the series before. She just comes off as Starline's Metal Sonic. I think her lightening powers are cool though.

It's the design. Personally, I don't like it too much, but it's very unique and fits with the games very well, and we get a lot of personality from the concept art and comic covers.

[StaticMania]

9 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I don't get the appeal of Surge. She is another Sonic-like antagonist which has already been done in the series before. She just comes off as Starline's Metal Sonic. I think her lightening powers are cool though.

Metal Sonic...

If he was like...Sonic 2.0 and could talk.

[Kuzu]

People gotta keep in mind how old this series is. Metal is almost 30, and Shadow is 20. 

 

We have not had a rival for Sonic who has had existential issues for nearly two decades, to a lot of younger fans, this is the first time seeing this.  Plus, like previous Sonic rivals, her design is a great compliment to his own.

 

People tend to gravitate towards characters that serve as contrast to the protagonists; we've seen it with Metal, we've seen it with Knuckles, we've seen it with Shadow and Blaze, and now its Surge's turn for the new generation.

 

And after a whole decade of the most prominent antagonists being the Deadly Six, a new Sonic rival is pretty fucking refreshing at this point.

[Slashy]

10 minutes ago, CertifiedNobody said:

It's the design. Personally, I don't like it too much, but it's very unique and fits with the games very well, and we get a lot of personality from the concept art and comic covers.

I think a lot of the design is great, it just could have been attached with a more interesting role than just Starline's Metal Sonic.

[Wraith]

24 minutes ago, Slashy said:

I don't get the appeal of Surge. She is another Sonic-like antagonist which has already been done in the series before. She just comes off as Starline's Metal Sonic. I think her lightening powers are cool though.

It's not an original concept, but she feels like a rival designed to avoid all the pitfalls they fell into with the other rivals. She's "pure evil" so she'll never lose her edge or become redundant like Knuckles, Shadow and Blaze did, but she has more personality and autonomy than Metal Sonic. She can go back and forth with Sonic in ways Metal can't. She can, concievably, have her own quirks, likes, dislikes, desires etc beyond wanting to kill Sonic.

If the goal with IDW's new characters was to fill out the gaps in the cast like Ian said this feels like the right move. I'm not saying she's perfect, but if you rebooted Sonic and told me to design a rival for him from scratch it'd probably look something like Surge. It's an old concept polished with the benefit of hindsight.

[Slashy]

6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It's not an original concept, but she feels like a rival designed to avoid all the pitfalls they fell into with the other rivals. She's "pure evil" so she'll never lose her edge or become redundant like Knuckles, Shadow and Blaze did, but she has more personality and autonomy than Metal Sonic. She can go back and forth with Sonic in ways Metal can't. She can, concievably, have her own quirks, likes, dislikes, desires etc beyond wanting to kill Sonic.

If the goal with IDW's new characters was to fill out the gaps in the cast like Ian said this feels like the right move. I'm not saying she's perfect, but if you rebooted Sonic and told me to design a rival for him from scratch it'd probably look something like Surge.

Is she pure evil? She seems to be quick to rebel against Starline so I don't know what she actually wants. It doesn't seem like there is a stretch to convince Surge to become an anti-hero.

It seems more like a lot of her purpose is just because Metal isn't allowed to talk so we need a more chatty rival.

 

I may have exaggerated. I get the appeal of Surge in a lot of ways and I don't mind her as a character, but I would rather she be something more unique to the series because I don't get the hype for another Sonic-like antagonist that has several similarities to Metal Sonic.

IS is my favorite story this year already, but it is also something that is retreading old ground and begins to make me wonder if the writers don't have new ideas or SEGA is shooting them down.

 

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Slashy said:

 

I may have exaggerated. I get the appeal of Surge in a lot of ways and I don't mind her as a character, but I would rather she be something more unique to the series because I don't get the hype for another Sonic-like antagonist that has several similarities to Metal Sonic.

That's fair.

[Kuzu]

Like, the only real pitfall I can see Surge falling into is if she ether never develops past being two-dimensional rival for Sonic, and thereby suffering diminishng returns after a while. Or she becomes yet another hero character in a roster bloated with them. But its too early to tell right now, so just gotta wait and see.

Just now, Slashy said:

Is she pure evil? She seems to be quick to rebel against Starline so I don't know what she actually wants. It doesn't seem like there is a stretch to convince Surge to become an anti-hero.

It seems more like a lot of her purpose is just because Metal isn't allowed to talk so we need a more chatty rival.

 

I may have exaggerated. I get the appeal of Surge in a lot of ways and I don't mind her as a character, but I would rather she be something more unique to the series because I don't get the hype for another Sonic-like antagonist that has several similarities to Metal Sonic.

I mean, the only similarities she has with Metal is just being a doppelganger to Sonic, except Surge is allowed to actually have dialogue with him.

That said,  I can understand feeling she's redundant after we've millions of Sonic rivals already.