Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Celestia]

I remember being confused by X playing up Shadow as like the Terminator (at least in that one infamous episode) when he never felt like he was on THAT level of untouchability in the games. I know to an extent it's gameplay logic but he gets destroyed by say, a random GUN robot's laser etc. the same as anyone in SA2, lol. Like he's strong but to me for the most part he's just "Sonic but he can warp," hardly someone that the characters other than Sonic could never ever beat in my mind.

Now that I think about it, it's notable that I can't remember a time Ian wrote Shadow using Chaos Control to stop time...maybe I've just forgotten? But yeah that's a fair thing to leave out I think, as cool as time stopping is as a power it's very difficult to balance.

[Silvereyes]

3 hours ago, Promethean0416 said:

Either she will have to borrow/coerce Omega for that or she will have to go Sonic Advance 2 on him.

No Omega, no Cheese, no gimmicks. One rabbit enters, one hedgehog enters, one rabbit leaves.

3 hours ago, Razule said:

What if Big picked him up, and threw him really far, and really hard.

Shadow accidently kicks Froggy. "YOU HURT FROGGY!" "What, I-" "NOONE HURT FROGGY!" Grabbag starts playing in the background. Big picks up Shadow by the legs, spins him around in a circle several times, and then throws him into space.

[SanPolo4389]

https://twitter.com/IDWSonicNews/status/1550333384303443968?s=20&t=Fzlkwcx-zSIdH1QVVvjIkg

https://twitter.com/IDWSonicNews/status/1550348416273842177?s=20&t=Fzlkwcx-zSIdH1QVVvjIkg

https://twitter.com/IDWSonicNews/status/1550330506683850753?s=20&t=Fzlkwcx-zSIdH1QVVvjIkg

https://twitter.com/IDWSonicNews/status/1550331226069794816?s=20&t=Fzlkwcx-zSIdH1QVVvjIkg

https://twitter.com/IDWSonicNews/status/1550340923896258561?s=20&t=Fzlkwcx-zSIdH1QVVvjIkg

[MetalSkulkBane]

I still remember there was this one Shadow fanboy who was angry at "Treasure Team Tango" because Shadow should totally beat everyone alone. "Good" times.

As for that Sonic X episode, I only think that Sonic going down in first minutes was cheap. Everything else... well pretend Sonic turned evil and is doing all of this. In fact, just remember Archie FCBD 2007 where Eggman controls Sonic and beats up all Freedom Fighters and Chaotix in seconds.

I suppose he took Knuckles pretty quickly but if you watched Japanese version, you know Knuckles managed to remove his inhibitor rings and Shadow was this close to falling, but Rouge gave them back to him in time.

[Sonictrainer]

Spoiler

FINALLY. A location based on a destroyed Death Egg!

Also, what's the device connected on Surge in this cover?

 

[Kuzu]

7 hours ago, Celestia said:

I remember being confused by X playing up Shadow as like the Terminator (at least in that one infamous episode) when he never felt like he was on THAT level of untouchability in the games. I know to an extent it's gameplay logic but he gets destroyed by say, a random GUN robot's laser etc. the same as anyone in SA2, lol. Like he's strong but to me for the most part he's just "Sonic but he can warp," hardly someone that the characters other than Sonic could never ever beat in my mind.

Now that I think about it, it's notable that I can't remember a time Ian wrote Shadow using Chaos Control to stop time...maybe I've just forgotten? But yeah that's a fair thing to leave out I think, as cool as time stopping is as a power it's very difficult to balance.

You gotta remember that Sonic was also kind of OP in X as well. A single spin attack was one-shotting mechs that in the games usually take multiple hits to beat.

In fact, X is pretty notable is that its probably the biggest offender for why fans put Sonic & Shadow on such a high pedestal compared to everyone else. Everyone else got kind of nerfed (nobody but Sonic and Shadow even do a spin attack besides Emerl who copied it, when its a basic ass ability in the games that everyone can do). Knuckles is kind of the only one who escaped that but its pretty notable when you have Sonic & Knuckles taking on an enemy while everyone else is on the side or Shadow just taking down entire armies by himself.

[Duelistic Nature]

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

You gotta remember that Sonic was also kind of OP in X as well. A single spin attack was one-shotting mechs that in the games usually take multiple hits to beat.

In fact, X is pretty notable is that its probably the biggest offender for why fans put Sonic & Shadow on such a high pedestal compared to everyone else. Everyone else got kind of nerfed (nobody but Sonic and Shadow even do a spin attack besides Emerl who copied it, when its a basic ass ability in the games that everyone can do). Knuckles is kind of the only one who escaped that but its pretty notable when you have Sonic & Knuckles taking on an enemy while everyone else is on the side or Shadow just taking down entire armies by himself.

Shocker if you come from Sonic X and realise the entire cast was able to spin attack at will... not even needing a power ring.

And Amy's pikopiko hammer not being water trash.

So what do people think of Kit? How does he stack up as the "imposter" for Tails?

[WanderingBleats]

I like Kit a lot. I hope he can see some recovery from all of the trauma he's undergone, because there are so many panels of his that just break my heart. He's definitely almost constantly triggering my "want to protect and comfort" response.

I'm also hoping they don't go the "ha ha, we tricked you into feeling sympathy for this cute little guy, BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE because he's irredeemably terrible deep down!" route. Like, yeah, he's a bad guy. And we've already seen that he has highly violent impulses that he just hasn't had much opportunity to let out. But sympathetic villains are a thing, and I hope they keep that going with him.

As for how he stacks up in regard to being a "similar rival" for Tails specifically, I think he's a fairly interesting take on the concept. He's not so much a mirror of what Tails is as he is a mirror of what Tails is perceived as. Like Surge is a surface-level reading of Sonic, Kit is a surface-level reading of Tails. He's the support, to a fault. Being forced into that role has psychologically damaged him to the point that he can barely function without Surge at this point. He also has blind loyalty to Surge and will never do anything to cross her. He's like a funhouse mirror, distorting and amplifying personality traits that Tails has to a degree, but in doing so, he highlights Tails's strengths. Because he's not like that. Kit is a foil to Tails in the traditional sense.

In terms of cleverness or combat capability, Kit simply cannot match Tails at this point. That was demonstrated pretty decisively. He'll probably become more effective and genuinely terrifying later... But he's not there yet. Even so, I think that's the least interesting part of how he measures up to Tails, so that's fine.

I'm very curious to see how the writers grow and develop him. I want to see if he'll remain a dark mirror for Tails or if he'll develop into something of his own.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I mean, when was the last time Tails actually had a rival? There was Wave and you could partially put Eggman as one given their battles in SA2, but a foil is still somewhat new territory for Tails.

Not even the Tails Doll was a rival than it was a thing that grew into something creepily else entirely.

[Rabbitearsblog]

I'm interested in this Scrapnik Island story.  The fact that it's going to be a straight up horror story sounds really interesting to me!  Also, I'm glad that Tails is getting some love this year.  I do wonder if there will be any future stories that will have Tails as the main focus?

 

 

[Darkvizardberrytan]

I need kit to remain twisted and evil. We have no one truly bad in the comics outside Eggman and Surge to some extent though shes more "I just want the world to burn but has a chip on her shoulder with sonic atm" Kit in issue 50 had some of the most twisted faces and eye designs I have seen in some time. Such as knowing how long it would take to drown tails and going angry when he heard tails wanted to help sonic stop surge. Outside kit we got 2 goofy skunks for slapstick like villains, and the possum whom could be good but just comes off currently as a businesses man type villain in i want to make a profit while tricking you guys and getting away with it. Kit adds that element of yes you want to feel bad for him but he takes full advantage of that.

[Sega DogTagz]

5 hours ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

I need kit to remain twisted and evil. We have no one truly bad in the comics outside Eggman and Surge 

I can understand overlooking Zavok, but what did my boy Mimic ever do to deserve that slight? Chief iced his whole crew. He's as bad as they get. 

 

[Kuzu]

Probably because Mimic is Whisper's personal enemy and has no real connection to Sonic whatsoever.

[Duelistic Nature]

Mimic selling out his team to Eggman, cold as ice.

But when the chips were down he wasn't so menacing anymore, even a hint of desperation in him for not finishing the job properly and Eggman breathing down his neck to put him in a box. The way he got his team killed though was menacing AF, though. Buried by Shadow Androids, but it's more that he lured them into that trap.

Kit's broken state is almost infuriating to watch. His mind being so broken to be nothing more than almost a drone following orders. At the same time close to breaking down at a moment's notice, but still, be extremely lethal if it weren't for that same emotional instability. It triggers my moral injustice response. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me. In this case, words did hurt, deeply. damn.

[Sonictrainer]

Here's a textless version of one of the SI Covers, by Deegeemin

Here's the design process

 

[WanderingBleats]

12 hours ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

We have no one truly bad in the comics outside Eggman and Surge to some extent

Ehhhhhhhh... at the risk of sounding a little too snarky, are we reading the same comic?

Zavok, who was mentioned by Sega DogTagz, had his cruelty magnified to an extreme degree in the comic. Or, to be more accurate, he actually got to demonstrate the cruelty that he only vaguely talked about in Lost World. All of the Deadly Six, in fact. They are, by design, completely without positive attributes. The Zeti Hunt arc had some absolutely brutal scenes.

Mimic has already been brought up. He hasn't directly interacted with Sonic yet, sure, but he is definitely way way way beyond the pale in terms of "truly bad."

Clutch... I don't see why it matters if he's a businessman-type villain? He's still a scumbag to the extreme. Having a different way of expressing that evil is a good thing. It would be too samey if every villain conducted their villainy through brute force.

Metal Sonic, if we want to count him as an independent villain based on the Neo Metal arc. I'll grant that this one is debatable though, since even then he was doing what he was doing in service to the Eggman Empire.

#50 spoiler:

Spoiler

And Starline! He's dead now, sure, but he was around for a really long time, did some of the most horrible things in the entire history of the franchise, and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Like, the vast majority of villains in the comic are truly bad. We haven't gotten any truly sympathetic villains in the main book up until now. And sympathetic or not, Surge is definitely still very much evil. (Kit does not appear to have enough interiority at this point to assign any morality to, in my opinion. But that's a philosophical debate.) It's not an equation where things balance out to zero. You can have good/sympathetic traits and evil/twisted traits in the same character.

Maybe it's my personal bias talking, because I really like villains with good/sympathetic traits (and generally find pure evil villains to be uninteresting), but I think the comic has the opposite problem. That is, it has too many irredeemably awful villains that we're just supposed to hate. It feels like every time someone who opposes the heroes appears, they quickly and repeatedly remind us that they're awful people. It's almost like the writers are afraid to have a villain where a reasonable response would be "hey, I want to stop their plans, but I also want to reach out a hand to help them as a person." Kit and Surge have the highest chance of breaking that trend, by my reading. And I really wanna see that avenue explored.

Plus, I think it would help solve a lot of the complaints about Sonic's worldview regarding villains if there were the occasional story moment that actually helped back it up by showing mercy as a virtue. It feels a little narratively incoherent to have Sonic constantly showing mercy and the plot following it up with negative consequences every single time, and not getting "but here's the good it can do" once in a while.

[Duelistic Nature]

1 hour ago, WanderingBleats said:

Plus, I think it would help solve a lot of the complaints about Sonic's worldview regarding villains if there were the occasional story moment that helped back it up by showing mercy as a virtue. It feels a little narratively incoherent to have Sonic constantly showing mercy and the plot following it up with negative consequences every single time, and not getting "but here's the good it can do" once in a while.

Especially that last bit had me crack a chuckle. Sonic's all about: "I wanna be the good guy and show mercy to even the most scummy of scum" and then you just get people that are downright absolute trashbags morality-wise who have nothing redeemable. Even when the hand of mercy is extended to them they'll bite that hand. It makes Sonic's merciful stance to people come off as incredibly naive and that's way more fitting for Silver and used when portraying silver in the comic.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Duelistic Nature

[Darkvizardberrytan]

7 hours ago, WanderingBleats said:

Ehhhhhhhh... at the risk of sounding a little too snarky, are we reading the same comic?

Zavok, who was mentioned by Sega DogTagz, had his cruelty magnified to an extreme degree in the comic. Or, to be more accurate, he actually got to demonstrate the cruelty that he only vaguely talked about in Lost World. All of the Deadly Six, in fact. They are, by design, completely without positive attributes. The Zeti Hunt arc had some absolutely brutal scenes.

Mimic has already been brought up. He hasn't directly interacted with Sonic yet, sure, but he is definitely way way way beyond the pale in terms of "truly bad."

Clutch... I don't see why it matters if he's a businessman-type villain? He's still a scumbag to the extreme. Having a different way of expressing that evil is a good thing. It would be too samey if every villain conducted their villainy through brute force.

Metal Sonic, if we want to count him as an independent villain based on the Neo Metal arc. I'll grant that this one is debatable though, since even then he was doing what he was doing in service to the Eggman Empire.

#50 spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

And Starline! He's dead now, sure, but he was around for a really long time, did some of the most horrible things in the entire history of the franchise, and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Like, the vast majority of villains in the comic are truly bad. We haven't gotten any truly sympathetic villains in the main book up until now. And sympathetic or not, Surge is definitely still very much evil. (Kit does not appear to have enough interiority at this point to assign any morality to, in my opinion. But that's a philosophical debate.) It's not an equation where things balance out to zero. You can have good/sympathetic traits and evil/twisted traits in the same character.

Maybe it's my personal bias talking, because I really like villains with good/sympathetic traits (and generally find pure evil villains to be uninteresting), but I think the comic has the opposite problem. That is, it has too many irredeemably awful villains that we're just supposed to hate. It feels like every time someone who opposes the heroes appears, they quickly and repeatedly remind us that they're awful people. It's almost like the writers are afraid to have a villain where a reasonable response would be "hey, I want to stop their plans, but I also want to reach out a hand to help them as a person." Kit and Surge have the highest chance of breaking that trend, by my reading. And I really wanna see that avenue explored.

Plus, I think it would help solve a lot of the complaints about Sonic's worldview regarding villains if there were the occasional story moment that actually helped back it up by showing mercy as a virtue. It feels a little narratively incoherent to have Sonic constantly showing mercy and the plot following it up with negative consequences every single time, and not getting "but here's the good it can do" once in a while.

Clutch matters cause at the end of the day he is just that. A businessman and not someone that would threaten the world. Same for Mimic and granted yes he (while he did not kill them) led his team to their deaths and brushed it off. But for what? He also has no end goal. Outside whisper tracking him down what threat is he to the world. He just wants to vanish and do his own thing. Zavok and gang are back on their planet (again) to hopefully sit for awhile.

Metal Sonic is not going to do anything without eggmans say so hes out of the lineup of big threats except when he is in his neo form and can think and do his own thing.

Not even going to bother with the skunks

And then we fall to Surge and Kit. Both evil and both wanting the world to burn for everything that is wrong in their life. Though kit is following surge lead at the same time gives her ideas on how to accomplish her goals without just running in reckless to get her butt kicked so easily. Again we are talking about someone that some want to feel bad for but where some see some cute little new character to add to the EVER growing list of heroes we have someone again he is conflicted and a ticking time bomb with his emotions. Going from feeling good tails complimented him to wanting to drown and also destroy everything surge wants

 

[Kuzu]

I'll admit that I didn't really think about the fact we have villains like Mimic and Clutch, they're so minor though that it kind of went below the radar.

I'm not sure I'm entirely on board about wanting more villains turned good though. In the context of the comic, sure, there aren't many but when you consider the totality of the franchise? Sonic's point been proven multiple times and some are his greatest allies currently.

 

I dunno; fair point about not having many sympathetic villains currently but I would really be bummed out if Surge and Kit become good and just become another part of the long list of heroic characters. Feels like a waste imo.

[Dr. Mechano]

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I dunno; fair point about not having many sympathetic villains currently but I would really be bummed out if Surge and Kit become good and just become another part of the long list of heroic characters. Feels like a waste imo.

Villains being sympathetic isn't the same thing as villains turning into good guys.

Villains can have humanizing - even admirable - qualities, and still ultimately remain villains. This isn't a dichotomy where we can only have one or the other.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Villains being sympathetic isn't the same thing as villains turning into good guys.

Villains can have humanizing - even admirable - qualities, and still ultimately remain villains. This isn't a dichotomy where we can only have one or the other.

True, but there's only so much sympathy you can have before the audience gets tired of it. You either run the risk of losing that sympathy and therefore just becoming a straight up villain or you become good...ish.

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

True, but there's only so much sympathy you can have before the audience gets tired of it. You either run the risk of losing that sympathy and therefore just becoming a straight up villain or you become good...ish.

I guess it depends. "Likable bad guy with positive traits" is like one of my favorite character archetypes, so I (and plenty of others) wouldn't get tired of it.

Ultimately, as long as they're still doing villainous things, it doesn't matter what kind of personality and values they innately hold. They'll still function as a villain and will still need to be regularly thwarted by the hero, whether or not they have positive attributes. That extra stuff doesn't detract from their villainy, not inherently anyway. 

[Sega DogTagz]

When Flynn got to expand the villain roster with the Egg Bosses back in Archie, we had the full spectrum of sympathetic to irredeemable. You had a few bad guys who were genuinely good, but stuck in a bad spot. You had a few morally ambiguous types who had to use the situation as a means to an end; and then you had the straight up bad dudes who were just bad.

 

I doubt we'll ever see a series balloon the villain roster to that degree again, but knowing that they covered all the bases before leaves me confident that the writers have the blueprint to finding a niche for any new villain to occupy. The series could use another good villan ala Cassia/Clove just as much as it could use another monster like Akult or KuKu.

 

It was also worth remembering that even though they were all subordinate to Eggman, the Egg Bosses weren't hindered in being their own villains when the time came. The KuKu's had their own agenda and featured in multiple arcs. Nephy, C Storm and Mordred play fast and loose with the politics and inner workings of local empires.

[Kuzu]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I guess it depends. "Likable bad guy with positive traits" is like one of my favorite character archetypes, so I (and plenty of others) wouldn't get tired of it.

Ultimately, as long as they're still doing villainous things, it doesn't matter what kind of personality and values they innately hold. They'll still function as a villain and will still need to be regularly thwarted by the hero, whether or not they have positive attributes. That extra stuff doesn't detract from their villainy, not inherently anyway. 

IT honestly depends on what villainous things they do and how much they affect the characters we care about. I personally do not agree that Eggman has all that many positive traits based on all of the shit he's pulled in years, but clearly we disagree about that. 

I'm not even saying things have to be clear cut, but they do have to make sense and there kind of does need to be an endpoint. 

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

I'm not even saying things have to be clear cut, but they do have to make sense and there kind of does need to be an endpoint. 

Ehh, not necessarily.

Bowser is and will always be a bad guy. He has a few positive traits sprinkled in there, like being a good dad and (in most appearances, though it isn't 100% consistent) being nice to his minions. There's no real "end point" for Bowser though. He exists to be a recurring enemy, and these slight humanizing qualities are just there to make him a little more likable and interesting. It isn't necessarily building up to any meaningful change in the character's direction or moral alignment, though.

Sometimes a bad guy just has some good traits without it leading to redemption and without it otherwise dampening their role as a recurring antagonist.

I'm not saying Surge or Kit are "Bowser-like" villains, granted. (Though I can see Eggman being compared to Bowser, given his similar role in his series) I'm just using him as an example of a recurring "not-entirely-bad bad guy" who nonetheless is a static villain who won't ever change.