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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread


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1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Metal Sonic wasn't updated yet...despite being taller? How odd.

What do you mean?

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Count me in for those who prefer the original Metal Sonic, also his personality. The Neo form just adds... unnecessary details and generic talking. The only cool thing was the need to replace and surpass Sonic but that was also in the original Metal.

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You know what we mean, Static.

Metal Sonic absorbed data from the characters and had his design modified by it (stripes like Shadow, for example). He even got a tail, referencing the Chaos data he collected from Froggy (who previously hosted Chaos' tail) and the Chao. They even focus on the tail when Metal is transforming.

In the end, he loses that appearance, proof enough it was just a transformation.

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I fail to see how Metal’s Neo form was anymore unnecessary than, say, Mephiles’ crystal form, or just about any alternate form a villain has had.

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2 hours ago, Ernest-Panda said:

I fail to see how Metal’s Neo form was anymore unnecessary than, say, Mephiles’ crystal form, or just about any alternate form a villain has had.

Crystal Meph is mostly justified in that it's his...well, not quite "true form" but a truer form than Shadow Recolor Meph. It's Mephiles without the "human" disguise, revealing the monster he really is.

Neo Metal is just an over-designed "cool" form that doesn't seem to have any kind of greater meaning and isn't even used outside of cutscenes. They could've used his normal design the whole time and nothing would've been different.

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I'm pretty sure in development Metal Overlord came first, whether he was always going to be Metal Sonic or not I don't know but just looking at Metal Overlord he looks nothing like base Metal Sonic, so I think they made Neo Metal Sonic to at least make the transformation a little less jarring since he carries over the massive spikes, the white stripes and considering he's basically just the head attached to a jumbled up mass of metal parts that form a body it would have been odd for him to have just gotten the larger spines rather than Metal's usual head shape.

But I will definitely say he should have been a boss fight as just Neo Metal Sonic at least in Team Sonic's Story or something

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1 minute ago, StratusAsterion said:

I'm pretty sure in development Metal Overlord came first, whether he was always going to be Metal Sonic or not I don't know but just looking at Metal Overlord he looks nothing like base Metal Sonic, so I think they made Neo Metal Sonic to at least make the transformation a little less jarring since he carries over the massive spikes, the white stripes and considering he's basically just the head attached to a jumbled up mass of metal parts that form a body it would have been odd for him to have just gotten the larger spines rather than Metal's usual head shape.

But I will definitely say he should have been a boss fight as just Neo Metal Sonic at least in Team Sonic's Story or something

He should have been playable so we could get Modern Mighty and Ray.

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Let me expand a bit of what I said about Metal Sonic in Sonic Heroes.

The games is about Metal's desire for vengeance against Sonic and proving he's as good, even better. To achieve that, he's taking control of Eggman's army and goes to find the best sources of power of Sonic's world.

At that time, what are those sources of power ?

- The Chaos Emeralds (out of reach for him)
- (Perfect) Chaos
- The Ultimate Life Form

Chaos didn't reappear yet (Battle didn't happen yet), but Metal can have access to his data : data from the Chao (Chaos is an evolved Chao) and Chaos'tail, of which Froggy might still hava data in his body. Chao are rare and live mostly in nature or near ruins. While in his cell, Eggman hires the Chaotix to stop Metal from gaining so much power. And what is their first "true" mission ? Find a Chao that badniks were hunting, who's located in ruins near the sea (ideal for a Chao !)

Also, the badniks in the game are not powered by animals (like Eggman used to do) but by the energy of the Power Plant, which has been invaded by the robots ! Remember that Metal Sonic wants to build a robot empire. (Sonic even wonders why Eggman would be after that kind of energy, but he doesn't know the truth)

Back to Chao, the Chaotix are now looking for them in their natural habitat, the jungle. The badniks are after them, and some of them have been captured and put in cages. The Chaotix don't want to be spotted by the robots, so Espio's invisibility is crucial in their plans. At the end of the mission, they meet Team Rose and Espio spots Cheese, and asks for him as he wants to complete his mission.

Metal needed Chaos' power, and the one creature that could give him some was Froggy, who had its tail before. At the end of Team Rose's story, when Froggy and Chocolat are released, you can hear Metal saying "Chaos data successfully copied". As I said, the game focus on the tail during the transformation scene. It even has a different colour that distinguishes it from the rest.

As for Shadow the Ultimate Life form, it speaks for itself.

 

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15 hours ago, Meta77 said:

That ...besides a finger wag and being fast metal is not that similar to sonic outside the ova. He uses energy beams. Electric dashes. Can fly, uses a giant machine in mania. Can transform into a more aggressive monster like form in choatix and mania. Again outside few examples does he fully act like sonic

To me though that finger wag tells you the world about Metal; he has Sonic's attitude and cheekiness and when he mocks you with it in Stardust Speedway both before and after the race it leaves a powerful impact about what it is that you're up against. At least that's how it's always been to me from when I first raced and lost to him countless times back in 93. 

10 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Which would one fear most seeing a figure standing on top of  a tower in a lighting storm neo with his cape and glow or chubby original metal. He looks good and plays outside the :safe: zone of lets keep metal basic cause well i can not think of why they would not change a design every now and again. it be like asking eggman to use the same mech every game instead of changing them up to you know meet the situation at hand.

Actually, as soon as Neo starts talking he becomes less frightening than the single minded super machine as a voice humanizes him and makes him just another world domination seeking villain who Sonic has no trouble dealing with as it's just what he does thanks to his conflict with Eggman. In contrast, a voiceless machine that shows no reaction asides from mocking you like the hero who he matches in both speed and ability and is set upon to destroy is fairly chilling.

As for the second point here about not changing up designs, sure Metal is one of Eggman's mechs in a way, but he is autonomous for the most part and more importantly a "character". Unlike Eggman's need to show off his latest and greatest creation in his attempts to conquer the world Metal's status as a character makes him less disposable naratively and visually. Call me crazy, but I would have preferred to of had a final battle that started against regular Metal Sonic first, just so he would have his chance to prove he is the better Sonic before relying on Sonic's friends like Sonic himself and turning into Neo with eventually losing it and transforming into the monster of the week as the big finale. I would even take it a step further at that point and make the transformation into Metal Overlord be because of Eggman being opportunistic and forcing it to happen as he sees an opportunity to best Sonic by creating his latest and greatest invention on the fly. In this way it makes Eggman the villain and doesn't have Metal willfully disregarding being what Sonic is, "the Worlds fastest hedgehog", not the worlds most wizardly hedgehog. I mean you're free to like the design, I never said my dislike should deprive you of that, but when you take away the presentation of Sonic's namesake speed and the attitude that defines Sonic (mocking finger wags and all) continuing to call the "character" Metal Sonic as though he is a robot version of the protagonist starts to feel a little incongruent. Sure he should be presented as better than Sonic, Eggman tries to make everything better than Sonic, but his base should still be Sonic if you are going to treat him as a robot version of Sonic. At least that's how I feel.

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Metal most likely knew he needed the emeralds to win outright. One thing I dislike about some villiqns is using a power weapon as a last ditch resort to try to fight. Metal went right for it most likely to try and get rid of everyone quickly

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You'll need to clarify for me a little @Meta77 because I don't recall Metal ever going for the Chaos Emeralds Heroes. The only mention of them I remember was by Eggman as needed to take on Metal in his MoW form.

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Could have sworn they mentioned he copied their data already. If he transformed without them speaks volumes of the power he had without them God If he didn't then he was a beast . Am at work so I can't research it much atm

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2 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Could have sworn they mentioned he copied their data already. If he transformed without them speaks volumes of the power he had without them God If he didn't then he was a beast . Am at work so I can't research it much atm

Chaos Data from Froggy's tail!

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He had to have transformed with out them since they were in the possession of Sonic and friends at the time that the battle begins. Everyone else is fighting him to give Sonic time to transform after all.

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2 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Could have sworn they mentioned he copied their data already. If he transformed without them speaks volumes of the power he had without them God If he didn't then he was a beast . Am at work so I can't research it much atm

Neo Metal copied all the heroes' data throughout the game, as well as "the power of Chaos" via the Chao and Froggy.

However, it's never stated that he collected data from the Chaos Emeralds. Eggman just suggests that they're the only way to combat him.

Really, Neo Metal seemed to go for everything but the Chaos Emeralds.

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2 minutes ago, NegaMetallix said:

Neo Metal copied all the heroes' data throughout the game, as well as "the power of Chaos" via the Chao and Froggy.

However, it's never stated that he collected data from the Chaos Emeralds. Eggman just suggests that they're the only way to combat him.

Really, Neo Metal seemed to go for everything but the Chaos Emeralds.

Because he already tried them in the past in Sonic Mania Adventures and it dint work (headcanon), (I know what everybody will say, but fuck the 2 dimension shit).

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23 hours ago, Meta77 said:

 and neo doesnt always run into walls

Neo doesn't run at all. :lol: 

15 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

As far as the avatar goes, I think its in a similar position shadow's in in regards to forces. Where it feels like someone said to just not address that. 

Shadow on the other hand is kinda weird even though its similar because he exists? The comic with him in it , upon reflection kinda seems like a bunch of people told Ian " Hey you can't reference shadow being in forces, at all even the weird plot hole where he's gone. And he can't reference him being in forces, you can't have people reacting to him in a forces like situation. Also sonic and shadow gotta fight in it "  And every single aspect of that comic is weird, and makes it feel like it doesn't matter.

That's kinda been my train of thought since Issue 4.

16 hours ago, Jambone said:

neometal.thumb.png.3904a28604bda580f849867ea64829df.png

NEO Metal Sonic...what even happened here.  His head is now as large as the rest of his body, for some reason, and his ears have been turned red because...yellow wasn't KOOL enough, I guess?  He has also applied some lovely white eyeliner because Shadow gave him some makeup tips.  His spines are LONGER than his arms and legs.  The bolts holding his mouthplate on are now spikes, because SPIKES ARE KOOL.  He is now dressed (???) like some kind of wizard, with pointy shoes (XTRA KOOL spikes included) and his simple arms and legs are now large sleeves and pant legs.  Best of all, he is wearing a studded belt with a butt cape and what appears to be a...robe tie or loin cloth?  There are other weird design choices here that aren't really offensively bad but just confusing like the white stripes on everything or the oversized turbine engine.

Opinions are opinions man, but I'm hard pressed to see how anyone could think this looked cool.  It looks like someone told me to draw a cool Sonic robot when I was 14.

Folowing up on @Meta77 's thoughts, the overhauled design/transformation is part of the point in this case. 

Metal Sonic, for whatever reason, has decided to lock Eggman up within his own flagship(with complementary postal service!) and highjack his Egg Fleet and identity as part of a plan to use his Copycat ability on Sonic, Shadow, Froggy, and Chocola so he can finally destroy and rule the world with a Robot Kingdom. He does this, among other things, primarily motivated by seriously claiming he's the real Sonic while acknowledging that he created specifically to destroy him. He's not right in the CPU.

Thus, Neo Metal Sonic instead looks like a wizard overlord, complete with "quills" that point straight up, shoulders of doom, sleeves that reach his wrists, a longcoat, and elven shoes. Oh and spikes. Lotsa of spikes. It's a form clearly meant to look more imposing and sinister than his normal form and that you seldom actually see outside of the shroud of stormy darkness in relatively brief shots. And the most noteworthy exceptions are when a lightning storm he himself may have conjured flashes. It works very well for what it needs to do.

10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

What recurring character needs a new design?

When they're appearing in a different context/format than they're normally/previously designed for.

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

His original Sonic CD form...?

you mean this:

image.png.a77cf360fe6125dadceed23a8a448186.png

No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't turn back into this.

 

7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Metal Sonic wasn't updated yet...despite being taller? How odd.

Eh, he essentially did.  

Metal Sonic is the Classic character that is the least changed in the transition to the Dreamcast&Modern era, with only Knuckles coming any close.

The most notable change was how his two bottom "spines" seemed shortened and/or less pointy, giving him a slightly more unique look next to Sonic. Of course, this detail is absent at the end of Heroes, for whatever reason.

.

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Neo Metal is just an over-designed "cool" form that doesn't seem to have any kind of greater meaning and isn't even used outside of cutscenes. They could've used his normal design the whole time and nothing would've been different.

I can't really imagine base Metal Sonic on top of that tower being anywhere near as striking.

3 hours ago, StratusAsterion said:

I'm pretty sure in development Metal Overlord came first, whether he was always going to be Metal Sonic or not I don't know but just looking at Metal Overlord he looks nothing like base Metal Sonic, so I think they made Neo Metal Sonic to at least make the transformation a little less jarring since he carries over the massive spikes, the white stripes and considering he's basically just the head attached to a jumbled up mass of metal parts that form a body it would have been odd for him to have just gotten the larger spines rather than Metal's usual head shape.

But I will definitely say he should have been a boss fight as just Neo Metal Sonic at least in Team Sonic's Story or something

Essentially, Neo Metal Sonic was a Chrysalis for Metal Madness and shortly after Metal Overlord.

3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

He should have been playable so we could get Modern Mighty and Ray.

I am really curious as to how the story for that would've gone.

Also, from what I've been seeing, I guess SEGA decided against having that happen in Mania Plus.

3 hours ago, Adamis said:

 

 Chao are rare and live mostly in nature or near ruins.

 

Huh. I do not know that.

3 hours ago, Adamis said:

 

Also, the badniks in the game are not powered by animals (like Eggman used to do) but by the energy of the Power Plant, which has been invaded by the robots ! Remember that Metal Sonic wants to build a robot empire. (Sonic even wonders why Eggman would be after that kind of energy, but he doesn't know the truth)

 

Holy shit! I never really thought about that!

Heroes has some of the most lowkey story to gameplay integration I've even seen. 

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Call me crazy, but I would have preferred to of had a final battle that started against regular Metal Sonic first, just so he would have his chance to prove he is the better Sonic before relying on Sonic's friends like Sonic himself and turning into Neo with eventually losing it and transforming into the monster of the week as the big finale. 

I'm hearing the second phase of the Mega Death Egg Robot while reading this.

 

39 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Could have sworn they mentioned he copied their data already. If he transformed without them speaks volumes of the power he had without them God If he didn't then he was a beast . Am at work so I can't research it much atm

Yeah, lookin back, you kinda gotta hand it to Metal--he transformed to the point that Super Sonic and had to attack him at once in order to do any danger.

And that's if the other three teams were even able to seriously harm/hinder him while he was completing it.

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Spoiler

Ugh they're really doing the whole copy shtick. I mean how can you call Sonic the copy when your freaking name is METAL SONIC....I always found that dumb. Especially when I don't even know how creating an organic copy would be possible from a metal robot XD. I think inferior version would be better to call Sonic...or something like that.

 

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Spoiler

So I know that people probably won't think that Metal is all that obscure and unused, but there really is little argument that his Neo form hasn't been used in a long time so at least before people start raising their issues with this I think we can at least agree that Ian was true to his word, an obscure villain who hasn't been used in a long time. My complaints aside, I think this should work out for the most part since what Neo Metal should be capable of as an opponent should more than prove an adequate threat that would require Sonic needing everyone's help to best him just like in Heroes. Additionally, Ian has a chance to explore why we had a Phantom Ruby Illusion Metal in Forces instead of the real deal.

 

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