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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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26 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Also, Amy had plenty of time between each fight to get some rest and heal.

That doesn't mean she did...which unfortunately seemed to be the point.

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3 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

We have been playing the same games and waching, reading the same animated and comic based material right? If anything rouge has to be the moral guide of Shadow if not the good cop of the team. Rouge just said in this series Shadow hardly plays by the rules or hardly has moral limits when fighting anything he's focused on stopping.

 

Nah, Shadow is the moral guide. Rouge is just chill. While I could use the batman an catwoman archetypes as examples Brooding dark hero who seems like a shit but is actually a hero and cool girl, who's actually morally lax and and will steal from you. Let me use an example I just thought of that can make it simpler than that

 

Shadow is the teach who is harsh but cares about you and wants you to do well.

Rouge is more chill and will joke with you, but is willing to let you fail and doesn't care because its a paycheck.

Rouge seems more nice because she's sociable but shadow's the one who's looking out for you.

 

And omega is a violent metal baby

50 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It's surprising to realize that Shadow is probably closer to being a traditional hero (though not by much) than Rouge and Omega when you get down to it, especially given his reputation. 

Shadow from jump while he was being manipulated, and while what he was doing was wrong was to avenge someone. Shadow has always been trying to do what he has seen as right. He's just... kind of a dick. 

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3 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

Rouge once wanted to steal a robot and teach it how to steal so bad, she beat Amy to a point that Amy mentally created a illusion that Sonic came to recuse her and team up with her in a tag team match.

That shit happened too?

3 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

I know but to say rouge and omega is more lax in morality compared to shadow is absolutely absurd. Shadow is know for his dark anti heroic qualities and atypical moral values more than any  character. He's the guy the characters meet and take seriously and most feel dread against when he's on punisher mode. Rouge isn't taken serious to be a bad girl, she's to over the top sexy and teasing to be a force for the heroes to consider on the defense. Omega hardly shows up and acts more like a generic strong man robot than a killing machine that runs on cool factor.

Maybe prior to 2006, sure. But he's long sense dropped any real menace and has actually gotten kinda lazy from what I've heard.

Rouge isn't taken serious most of the time because she usually puts on the appearance of not being serious. And if you meant serious as in a threat(which you likely did), then yeah. She's was more of a middle woman half of the time and a side character the rest.

Also, I'm pretty sure Omega blowing things up is like half the point of his character.

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

She was frenzied and working herself so hard that Cream had to run and get help.

Wait, she was boxing with Cream?

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

 

Rouge's Story is the third chapter in the game after Sonic (Chapter 1) & Tails (Chapter 2). We don't learn about the Boxercise craze until Chapter 5.

Also, Amy had plenty of time between each fight to get some rest and heal.

After tricking Sonic into telling Emerl to "listen" to Rouge, she waited until Sonic & Tails left Emerl alone with Amy, KOs Amy twice, fights Chaos Gamma, gets followed by Amy in Night Babylon, KOs her again, leaves her outside the streets of Night Babylon, trains Emerl against Guard Robos and even fights him herself, goes to Central City, Amy appears a 3rd time, KOs Amy again, Amy believes Sonic appeared, fights Amy & Sonic with Emerl, defeats her a 5th time, steals a Chaos Emerald with Emerl, Emerl absorbs it, fights Sonic, KOs Sonic, and then, before her Chapter ends, she fights Sonic, Tails, & Knuckles together by herself.

So in Rouge's quest of turning Emerl into a Master Thief, Rouge beats Amy 5 times & takes on Sonic, Tails, & Knuckles alone.

To make a long story short, for all of the good things that Rouge has done, she can still be very cunning, manipulative, and cruel when she wants to be.

(IIRC, her chapter is very difficult at times)

Wow, Amy sure got her shit wrecked in that game.

Also, yes, Rouge is b-BAT. Suddenly, E10000-B makes more sense.

59 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It's surprising to realize that Shadow is probably closer to being a traditional hero (though not by much) than Rouge and Omega when you get down to it, especially given his reputation. 

His stated role(s) precedes him. Ain't that right, Boom?

 

36 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Shadow has gone through a deliberate character arc, over the course of multiple games. Not every character has been that lucky.

That too.

 

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19 hours ago, Cuz said:

Shadow has gone through a deliberate character arc, over the course of multiple games. Not every character has been that lucky.

It baffles me how with a cast as large as Sonic's, only one character had had a fully-explored backstory and an extensive arc that stretches for multiple games. 

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32 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, she was boxing with Cream?

She was at one point, but Cream ran for help because she feared that Amy was pushing herself too hard and she feared for her health. Amy was on an extreme diet and fitness plan and was self inflicting a crazy amount of punishment over herself. 

 

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

If we were talking about Free Riders, I would agree with you.

But besides Amy and Chaos Zero (who just shows up at one point because....who knows), Battle's characterization of everyone else is spot on, especially following Adventure 2 and Heroes.

Cream was so pacifist in Battle that she was willing to stand still and be beaten to death. On more than one occasion.

Knuckles flew into blind rages at a drop of a hat so many times you would have thought he was overdosing on steroids.

 

Not sure how that figures to "spot on". Free Riders had some bad interpretations, but its got nothing on Cream or Amy here.

 

Quote

Rouge's Story is the third chapter in the game after Sonic (Chapter 1) & Tails (Chapter 2). We don't learn about the Boxercise craze until Chapter 5.

Also, Amy had plenty of time between each fight to get some rest and heal.

 

When we as a viewer are first introduced to Boxersize in Chap 5, Cream makes it perfectly clear that this is a recurring event by saying "Not that again" and even going out of her way to duck participating in the first fight. So we know Amy has been doing this before and for some time. 

Amy's craze pre-dates its chap 5 introduction and as the motivation behind it is "to make herself more appealing to Sonic" its highly likely it even predates the start of Sonic battle. This is Amy's default workout regimen.

Amy couldn't even walk straight following a 5 KO bout of Boxersize and she still dragged Cream and Emerl into a 10 KO slugfest. Then following that, she revealed that she had been wearing weighted gear, took them off and was looking to rumble some more.

Cream made it very clear that Amy's extreme diet and training regimen was a cause for concern. She wasn't eating, resting and she wasn't healing - and it had been going on long enough that she knew that even as Amy's best friend, she was powerless to stop her.

 

Quote

To make a long story short, for all of the good things that Rouge has done, she can still be very cunning, manipulative, and cruel when she wants to be.

True. But there are just better examples to show that opposed to cherry picking a fight and ignoring a boatload of context behind it.

If you want to see her being cunning manipulative and cruel, look at the build up to that fight instead. She tricked Sonic into giving her authority over Emerl ahead of time (ensuring he would leave with her willingly when the time came). She played her cards and bided her time until Sonic left Emerl with Amy, because she didn't want to risk a fight against him, and finally she struck a vulnerable target that wasn't equipped to defend herself. Cruel Cunning and Manipulative before she even threw the first punch.

25 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It baffles me how with a cast as large as Sonic's, only one character had had an explored backstory and arc.

That is shortsighted

 

Knuckles ancestors are characters in SA1 for crying out loud. Shedding light on his situation, and he goes through a pretty big arc from nemesis to rival to friend over the course of the series. He's probably tied up in more backstory and lure than even Shadow at this point.

Gamma got a condensed, but no less complete telling of his life story. Complete with the classic redemption and mission arcs to fufil his destiny before death.

Blaze's backstory has been brought up so many times that we have conflicting paradox's about her existence. She too also had a noticble and easy to follow character arc over the course of 2 games.

Plenty of characters check that box

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13 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It baffles me how with a cast as large as Sonic's, only one character had had an explored backstory and an extensive arc.

Knuckles comes the "closest" off the top of my head, but his case wasn't really dedicated or specific.

 

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

She was at one point, but Cream ran for help because she feared that Amy was pushing herself too hard and she feared for her health. Amy was on an extreme diet and fitness plan and was self inflicting a crazy amount of punishment over herself. 

 

Huh. Well, whaddya know.

 

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Cream was so pacifist in Battle that she was willing to stand still and be beaten to death. On more than one occasion.

 

I was just thinking about that, actually.

To be fair in her case, that's, like, her third appearance and was one of the only bouts of focused character development she got in the games anyway.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I was just thinking about that, actually.

To be fair in her case, that's, like, her third appearance and was one of the only bouts of focused character development she got in the games anyway.

You can't even call it that. She regressed from a character that was clearly willing and able to fight in her first appearance, into one that wouldn't fight back against something that was intent on murdering her.

Its not character development to take 2 steps back so we can watch her take 2 steps forwards.

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33 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Knuckles ancestors are characters in SA1 for crying out loud. Shedding light on his situation, and he goes through a pretty big arc from nemesis to rival to friend over the course of the series. He's probably tied up in more backstory and lure than even Shadow at this point.

 

I don't think knuckles really counts. I think knuckles kind of needs expansion upon or at least never got as much as people say. His backstory is largely " Your ancestors left a mural to how cool someone else is " and that aspect never really gets expanded upon? Like you see other echidinas but like.. they don't really give any information besides exposition to the larger plot with chaos. Like knuckles never really goes through much of an arc like Blaze or shadow. He's just like " Ok I guess i'm not fighting sonic anymore " and that's what happened because sega decided he was sonic's friend... and that's it. They have largely kind of ignored his duty's to angel island at this point, I would argue what little  developments he did have are actively being taken away by sega.

A few other characters, you sort of get like to see them change over the course of a game or a few. Knuckles is just flips like " GUess i'm good now " and ... that's it. 

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36 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Cream was so pacifist in Battle that she was willing to stand still and be beaten to death. On more than one occasion.

Ok, that's a fair point.

Cream not fighting after the events of Advance 2 and Heroes doesn't make much sense here.

36 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

True. But there are just better examples to show that opposed to cherry picking a fight and ignoring a boatload of context behind it.

If you want to see her being cunning manipulative and cruel, look at the build up to that fight instead. She tricked Sonic into giving her authority over Emerl ahead of time (ensuring he would leave with her willingly when the time came). She played her cards and bided her time until Sonic left Emerl with Amy, because she didn't want to risk a fight against him, and finally she struck a vulnerable target that wasn't equipped to defend herself. Cruel Cunning and Manipulative before she even threw the first punch.

Didn't I already mention this?

1 hour ago, Sonictrainer said:

After tricking Sonic into telling Emerl to "listen" to Rouge, she waited until Sonic & Tails left Emerl alone with Amy, KOs Amy twice

 

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21 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I was just thinking about that, actually.

To be fair in her case, that's, like, her third appearance and was one of the only bouts of focused character development she got in the games anyway.

Yeah, Battle was really the first to define who Cream was as a character, so it isn't so much mischaracterizing her as it is just plain defining her. It's just unfortunate that they sacked her with a personality that contradicts what little she had accomplished up to that point, and I don't think they've really known what to do with since.

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9 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You can't even call it that. She regressed from a character that was clearly willing and able to fight in her first appearance, into one that wouldn't fight back against something that was intent on murdering her.

Its not character development to take 2 steps back so we can watch her take 2 steps forwards.

Sonic Advance 2 is a. a game with very loose story, allowing some room for leeway in regards to the "finer" details of how things played out in that run happy game, and b. had the fact that her mother was also among those kidnapped by Eggman motivating her. Cream initially not wanting to fight Chaos Gamma in self-defense(albiet for whatever reason it was in context), but deciding to step up once Emerl tries to protect her and convinces her to do so is still technically consistent with that.

A more compassionate character bending their preference for others more than themselves is a natural trait and the pacifistic types in particular are some of the more literal examples of that.

And for better or worse, that still pretty early instance is also the only time that type of scenario has ever comes up in a story from what I know.

38 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

 

Amy couldn't even walk straight following a 5 KO bout of Boxersize and she still dragged Cream and Emerl into a 10 KO slugfest. Then following that, she revealed that she had been wearing weighted gear, took them off and was looking to rumble some more.

 

 

 

 

Great Scott, they went that far?

 

56 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Blaze's backstory has been brought up so many times that we have conflicting paradox's about her existence. She too also had a noticble and easy to follow character arc over the course of 2 games.

 

What was her arc in Rush Adventure?

 

 

9 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Yeah, Battle was really the first to define who Cream was as a character, so it isn't so much mischaracterizing her as it is just plain defining her. It's just unfortunate that they sacked her with a personality that contradicts what little she had accomplished up to that point, and I don't think they've really known what to do with since.

Eh, it's Sonic Team.  ...I can't think of much else needed to be said.

 

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If Sonic games weren't so intent in having every character in every game as well as often working together...some of the characterizations in Sonic Battle could probably be done more often making for great interactions in character pairing per game/story.

Sonic Battle makes also Amy and Cream's dynamic very much unlike Sonic and Tails. Sonic actually interacts with Rouge. As mentioned Rouge is a lot more selfish and manipulative.

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37 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

How so?

Shadow the hedgehog basically says that battle didn't happen in a lot of respects, as mentioned above shadow is dealing with amnesia in ShtH which he seemed to have gotten over in battle. But two, in general character development and lore tidbits ShTh basically moves away from maria and Gerald being catalysts for what shadow can do " I have maria's soul that's why I can do chaos control " and just says " Nah its aliens " . Well i'm being purposefully blunt, what the game says ( poorly ) is that shadow achievements while do have something to do with shadow's alien DNA are largely his own and he puts his past behind him so sonic team doesn't have to have shadow calling out for maria for strength every time, shadow can just grow and become more powerful and a better person on his own with out needing to do all that. Its effectively literally closing the book on maria and Gerald in many respects. Also speaking of closing the books, it basically confirmed Gerald couldn't have worked on anything like gemerald, that all he did was the biolizard and Shadow and that was kinda it( and what he did with shadow is now questionable) . They keep Gemril design around, but as a character he kind of just doesn't exist, I think it speaks to his non existence that Sega was ok with him quite literally being transformed into another character in the previous Archie book. Gemril is a blaze situation, but they never bothered to fix it... so he's just kind of this thing that exists.  Where did he come from? Don't worry about it.

So yeah that.

I think sega is gonna continue to move in that direction with shadow's character as well in future. If there is ever a reboot, I think whatever tragedy occurs wont be played up as much ( or related to egg man at all ). it will kinda focus on him being some weird alien mutant and stuff, cuz kids and toys and shit

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15 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

I thought it was a common belief among the fandom that Battle just takes place after Shadow?

That's a dumb belief. Because the lesson, the whole point of Shadow the hedgehog is a contradictory point to everything shadow does in that game. 

Its a retcon, Sonic spin off games often don't matter in the grand scheme of things and that was one of em.

Like the whole point of that game is to go " Nah this is what's up with shadow" , anyone saying that battle just took place after ShtH is overly obsessed with at trying to make everything canon. Not everything is canon, sometimes its a fun thing that occurred that doesn't matter

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The other characters really mistreated Amy in Sonic Battle. Her attacks in Battle didn't feel so generic like they did in both Sonic Boom and IDW comics where she's just "the girl" character.

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Just now, Fire-N-Space said:

The other characters really mistreated Amy in Sonic Battle. Her attacks in Battle didn't feel so generic like they did in both Sonic Boom and IDW comics where she's just "the girl" character.

Kinda yea

Some characters get really neat cool shit. Some characters like amy got like generic stuff. Then some characters like tails, got like really weird stuff

Despite some of its characterization issues, I really liked battle as a game. And I would like sonic team to indulge in making some form of sonic fighting type game in the futureThey probably wont make one that could potentially be competitive, but something like the naruto ultimate ninja storm games would work for it

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7 hours ago, StaticMania said:

If Sonic games weren't so intent in having every character in every game as well as often working together...some of the characterizations in Sonic Battle could probably be done more often making for great interactions in character pairing per game/story.

Sonic Battle makes also Amy and Cream's dynamic very much unlike Sonic and Tails. Sonic actually interacts with Rouge. As mentioned Rouge is a lot more selfish and manipulative.

Yeah, seriously.

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Then some characters like tails, got like really weird stuff

 

Like what?

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Despite some of its characterization issues, I really liked battle as a game. And I would like sonic team to indulge in making some form of sonic fighting type game in the futureThey probably wont make one that could potentially be competitive, but something like the naruto ultimate ninja storm games would work for it

Agreed.

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7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Tails had like gaint mechanical magic hands that flicked you out of the ground and shit

Oh, you mean the fighting styles! Okay.

 

Tails' fighting style in general is somewhat nebulous.

 

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