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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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13 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Why? Why can it not be a mistranslation? Sega is fairly ill-organized, which means a mistranslation is indeed possible.

12 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Because they wouldn't mistranslate orders in-house. 

I'm sure the rule was stated in several sentences/a paragraph. There are also several interviews that mention the two worlds. I'm sure they can't keep mistranslating something important like that, especially with this much public attention.

I mean, if it WAS a mistranslation, wouldn't Ian (or anyone else who's close enough to correct the public) figuring it out by now? Especially Ian, since Sega would want him to follow the rules, and he'd want to clarify as much detail to find loopholes and creative ways to interpret. 

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Why ask the higher ups to clarify something if none of your immediate pitches touch on, or incorporate it?

I mean, Ian's a master at tap dancing around these situations where he can.

 

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It ain't no mistranslation. Ian's talked publicly about it multiple times now. They'd surely stop him from spreading misinformation if that were the case. 

Unless, of course, literally every time they try to speak to the man it gets mistranslated. The idea that they'd be that incompetent tickles me in a morbid kind of way.

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I do actually agree with the premise that "two worlds" is not actually meant to be taken completely literally.  The games have never acknowledged it, and for that matter the Japanese developers have never acknowledged it; literally the only people who ever acknowledge it are western representatives of the franchise.  We only know about it at all because of a leaked series bible, correct?  And Webber, at least, has as I recall given the impression of not really understanding it; while Ian Flynn clearly thinks it's idiotic, no matter how much he has to play nice with his employers, and is doing his level best to ignore it.  Somebody should press Iizuka on the details sometime; I strongly suspect that he'll give as non-committal an answer as possible.

What I think is actually the case is that Sonic Team wants to segregate two different interpretations of the franchise: Human-dominated, and anthro-dominated.  It's reasonable to suggest that these correspond to different audiences; or at the very least to different themes and aesthetics.  Sonic Team have decided that they don't want to have both depicted simultaneously, and that instead each game should follow and dedicate itself to one interpretation only, without worrying about the other.  It's a bit like how Mario and Bowser are sometimes bitter enemies, and sometimes they play sports or race together; they're different interpretations of the franchise and they aren't meant to interact (which is a large part of the reason why Daisy and Waluigi don't appear in mainline games).  Likewise, Sonic Team has decided to put the human and anthro interpretations of the franchise each in their own little bubble.  But series bibles aren't the sort of places where you can just say "the canon doesn't really matter," so they handwaved in a nebulous and unseen portal ostensibly linking the two, in order to preserve the fiction that there's just one Modern Sonic whose adventures share continuity.  (This is completely arbitrary now that Classic Sonic is a separate character, but that decision didn't make sense either so we can abandon the fiction that Sonic Team's ideas make sense.)

You can't "world-build" with two worlds because it is literally an excuse to avoid world-building.  I strongly suspect that if Ian Flynn pitched a comic storyline which explicitly acknowledged two worlds and the portal, it would be rejected.

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2 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Iizuka's answer to where Elise was in an interview from last year was that she was still in the human world. The Eastern side acknowledges it too. 

The stupidest thing ever is this:

"We don't wanna make a chao garden in Sonic Heroes"

"But the fan want it, and will ask where is the chao garden to use the animals they saved from the robots"

"To avoid confusion, we will remove the animals from the robots! We wanna make sure they know there is no chao garden!"

Incompetency is not something new with Sonic.

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4 hours ago, FFWF said:

 (This is completely arbitrary now that Classic Sonic is a separate character, but that decision didn't make sense either so we can abandon the fiction that Sonic Team's ideas make sense.)

Meh that one doesn't really bother me. A time period becoming an alternate Timeline due to time travel is a pretty standard thing. See for example Future Trunks in Dragon Ball. Changing the past only shifted his future into an alternate reality.

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4 hours ago, FFWF said:

I do actually agree with the premise that "two worlds" is not actually meant to be taken completely literally. 

[....]

What I think is actually the case is that Sonic Team wants to segregate two different interpretations of the franchise: Human-dominated, and anthro-dominated.  It's reasonable to suggest that these correspond to different audiences; or at the very least to different themes and aesthetics.  Sonic Team have decided that they don't want to have both depicted simultaneously, and that instead each game should follow and dedicate itself to one interpretation only, without worrying about the other.  It's a bit like how Mario and Bowser are sometimes bitter enemies, and sometimes they play sports or race together; they're different interpretations of the franchise and they aren't meant to interact (which is a large part of the reason why Daisy and Waluigi don't appear in mainline games). 

[.....]

You can't "world-build" with two worlds because it is literally an excuse to avoid world-building.  I strongly suspect that if Ian Flynn pitched a comic storyline which explicitly acknowledged two worlds and the portal, it would be rejected.

Wow, you worded it perfectly. 

Made me remember that was my initial thought right after the leak, even the Mario comparison. 

...and it's making me remember all the silly complaints about those type of games.

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The two worlds conundrum will always be an interesting one for as long as it persists in such an unclarified form to be sure. I think probably the worst part about it though is that it feels like it is an unnecessarily clumsy obstacle instead of a potentially tool that could really create some interesting and dynamic adventures and stories. As a result, we can never really have any cohesive world spanning adventures without them feeling disconnected issue to issue like it has been so far in IDW. And while focused epics like in the vein of S3&K can work using a singular location, with Flynn's writing style benefitting a more all encompassing approach I wonder if such local focused per story setups would be able to feel particularly engaging long enough despite it being the reasonable approach considering the franchise.

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From what I recall, Iizuka first said it in an interview in 2010 (who knows how long he considered a thing before.. allegedly Adventure?), but it only started really being talked about when it resurfaced in 2015. Ian said the Archie comic would have included that in the reboot had he known about it prior, but.. why on Earth would he not have known about it by 2013? Why didn't they tell him?

Maybe SEGA really doesn't consider it as literally as we think if they didn't care to mention it.

8 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Also, didn’t Flynn mention he’d be demonstrating how the link between the worlds works? 

He said:

Quote

 know I have my explanations, maybe I can work that into the IDW book down the line, but as I’ve said in previous interviews and stuff, my focus in the book initially is to just to hit the ground running, and later on we’ll explore the deeper lore and history and all that.

And:

Quote

And it really isn’t going to affect the book for the first year and probably not for the first three years if things go the way I think they will. Maybe we can get down the line and explore the idea of the two worlds in more depth, but the general feeling I get from people is that they don’t want me to. I’m in no rush to do so. 

 

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1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

Meh that one doesn't really bother me. A time period becoming an alternate Timeline due to time travel is a pretty standard thing. See for example Future Trunks in Dragon Ball. Changing the past only shifted his future into an alternate reality.

Except that's not what happened, is it?  In Generations, Classic Sonic was described consistently throughout as being from the past, and the game ends with Modern Sonic explicitly identifying Classic Sonic's future with his own past - "Enjoy your future, it's gonna be great!"  If Classic Sonic's timeline was going to branch off, Modern Sonic wouldn't know anything about his future.  Furthermore, if we accept the premise that any time-travel or knowledge of the future affects the past and creates a split timeline, then the very moment Modern and Classic met, Classic would already be from "another dimension" - and yet he is never described as such.

In Forces, Classic Sonic is described consistently throughout as being from a different dimension, without hesitation or question.  There's no reason to suppose that Modern Sonic and Tails would even know that Classic Sonic's timeline had become a separate one; and in fact even if Classic Sonic had branched off into a different timeline, the fact is that he would still be referred to as a past Sonic because he's visibly not advanced enough years to catch up with Modern Sonic in age, indicating that he'd still be from an earlier point in time in his corresponding timeline.  I don't know anything about Dragonball, but in a branching timeline situation, likewise anyone from a potential future would still be described as being from the future, if an alternate one; they wouldn't use the "dimension" terminology as if their worlds had no relation.  After all, by that logic, no time-traveller from the future would ever actually be from the determined future if their very presence was affecting the past.  See, in this case, Silver, who is always referred to as being from the future rather than from another dimension - which he should be, if we're taking the premise that all time-travel affects the past.  The treatment of Silver in the series proves that Classic Sonic is not from another timeline that splits off after Generations.

The Classic-Modern split has nothing to do with branching timelines; nor can anyone pretend that the series ever indicates as such.  Forces flat-out retcons Generations, indisputably.  And this change, at least, is one that the games themselves are entirely open and honest about - unlike two worlds, which they have never acknowledged, and probably never will.

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4 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

The stupidest thing ever is this:

"We don't wanna make a chao garden in Sonic Heroes"

"But the fan want it, and will ask where is the chao garden to use the animals they saved from the robots"

"To avoid confusion, we will remove the animals from the robots! We wanna make sure they know there is no chao garden!"

Incompetency is not something new with Sonic.

I don't think that's quite as big a deal or a contradiction compared to other things.

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11 hours ago, Ivo the Coldsteel said:

I've started to embrace the whole two worlds idea because I like the notion of Sonic being such an adventurer that one world isn't enough for him.

Huh. I kinda like that, as well.

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It is a nice sentiment and honestly makes Blaze's world feel that much more wasted since Sonic going back to his world after Rush Adventure without going on countless more adventures is kind of out of character for the wandering adventurer that he is. Technically, even Secret Rings got that right with Sonic going on countless more adventures in the Arabian Nights before returning to his world.

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7 hours ago, FFWF said:

I do actually agree with the premise that "two worlds" is not actually meant to be taken completely literally.  Somebody should press Iizuka on the details sometime; I strongly suspect that he'll give as non-committal an answer as possible.

What I think is actually the case is that Sonic Team wants to segregate two different interpretations of the franchise: Human-dominated, and anthro-dominated.  It's reasonable to suggest that these correspond to different audiences; or at the very least to different themes and aesthetics.  Sonic Team have decided that they don't want to have both depicted simultaneously, and that instead each game should follow and dedicate itself to one interpretation only, without worrying about the other. 

Essentially.

7 hours ago, FFWF said:

It's a bit like how Mario and Bowser are sometimes bitter enemies, and sometimes they play sports or race together; they're different interpretations of the franchise and they aren't meant to interact (which is a large part of the reason why Daisy and Waluigi don't appear in mainline games). 

To be fair, Daisy debuted in a game that's primarily based off the main games' style. Plus she & for the most part Waluigi were created by different developers.

5 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

The stupidest thing ever is this:

"We don't wanna make a chao garden in Sonic Heroes"

"But the fan want it, and will ask where is the chao garden to use the animals they saved from the robots"

"To avoid confusion, we will remove the animals from the robots! We wanna make sure they know there is no chao garden!"

Incompetency is not something new with Sonic.

That still feels like an arbitrary thing to work around.

 

49 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Except that's not what happened, is it?  In Generations, Classic Sonic was described consistently throughout as being from the past, and the game ends with Modern Sonic explicitly identifying Classic Sonic's future with his own past - "Enjoy your future, it's gonna be great!"  If Classic Sonic's timeline was going to branch off, Modern Sonic wouldn't know anything about his future.  Furthermore, if we accept the premise that any time-travel or knowledge of the future affects the past and creates a split timeline, then the very moment Modern and Classic met, Classic would already be from "another dimension" - and yet he is never described as such.

In Forces, Classic Sonic is described consistently throughout as being from a different dimension, without hesitation or question.  There's no reason to suppose that Modern Sonic and Tails would even know that Classic Sonic's timeline had become a separate one; and in fact even if Classic Sonic had branched off into a different timeline, the fact is that he would still be referred to as a past Sonic because he's visibly not advanced enough years to catch up with Modern Sonic in age, indicating that he'd still be from an earlier point in time in his corresponding timeline.  I don't know anything about Dragonball, but in a branching timeline situation, likewise anyone from a potential future would still be described as being from the future, if an alternate one; they wouldn't use the "dimension" terminology as if their worlds had no relation.  After all, by that logic, no time-traveller from the future would ever actually be from the determined future if their very presence was affecting the past.  See, in this case, Silver, who is always referred to as being from the future rather than from another dimension - which he should be, if we're taking the premise that all time-travel affects the past.  The treatment of Silver in the series proves that Classic Sonic is not from another timeline that splits off after Generations.

The Classic-Modern split has nothing to do with branching timelines; nor can anyone pretend that the series ever indicates as such.  Forces flat-out retcons Generations, indisputably.  And this change, at least, is one that the games themselves are entirely open and honest about - unlike two worlds, which they have never acknowledged, and probably never will.

Two words: Phantom Ruby.

37 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

It is a nice sentiment and honestly makes Blaze's world feel that much more wasted since Sonic going back to his world after Rush Adventure without going on countless more adventures is kind of out of character for the wandering adventurer that he is. Technically, even Secret Rings got that right with Sonic going on countless more adventures in the Arabian Nights before returning to his world.

They probably wanted to save all that for another game.

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Maybe the Phantom Ruby changed the timeline and altered everyone perceptions so they don't notice the changes to reality. Maybe the Phantom Ruby caused Two Worlds.

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1 hour ago, Razule said:

Maybe the Phantom Ruby changed the timeline and altered everyone perceptions so they don't notice the changes to reality. Maybe the Phantom Ruby caused Two Worlds.

Essentially, for the most part.

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2 hours ago, FFWF said:

Except that's not what happened, is it?  In Generations, Classic Sonic was described consistently throughout as being from the past, and the game ends with Modern Sonic explicitly identifying Classic Sonic's future with his own past - "Enjoy your future, it's gonna be great!"  If Classic Sonic's timeline was going to branch off, Modern Sonic wouldn't know anything about his future.  Furthermore, if we accept the premise that any time-travel or knowledge of the future affects the past and creates a split timeline, then the very moment Modern and Classic met, Classic would already be from "another dimension" - and yet he is never described as such.

In Forces, Classic Sonic is described consistently throughout as being from a different dimension, without hesitation or question.  There's no reason to suppose that Modern Sonic and Tails would even know that Classic Sonic's timeline had become a separate one; and in fact even if Classic Sonic had branched off into a different timeline, the fact is that he would still be referred to as a past Sonic because he's visibly not advanced enough years to catch up with Modern Sonic in age, indicating that he'd still be from an earlier point in time in his corresponding timeline.  I don't know anything about Dragonball, but in a branching timeline situation, likewise anyone from a potential future would still be described as being from the future, if an alternate one; they wouldn't use the "dimension" terminology as if their worlds had no relation.  After all, by that logic, no time-traveller from the future would ever actually be from the determined future if their very presence was affecting the past.  See, in this case, Silver, who is always referred to as being from the future rather than from another dimension - which he should be, if we're taking the premise that all time-travel affects the past.  The treatment of Silver in the series proves that Classic Sonic is not from another timeline that splits off after Generations.

The Classic-Modern split has nothing to do with branching timelines; nor can anyone pretend that the series ever indicates as such.  Forces flat-out retcons Generations, indisputably.  And this change, at least, is one that the games themselves are entirely open and honest about - unlike two worlds, which they have never acknowledged, and probably never will.

I agree with this, sort of .

If you want me to respond I can I had originally written a large response then accidentally deleted and now I don't feel like rewriting it but if you need clarification I will.

But you are wrong, or half right, it wasn't meant not to define the world it was meant to not define the animal parts of the world or animal world. And recently sega has found that defining that world may have value, so this is why the two worlds thing is coming up.

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But you are wrong, or half right, it wasn't meant not to define the world it was meant to not define the animal parts of the world or animal world. And recently sega has found that defining that world may have value, so this is why the two worlds thing is coming up.

 

Two worlds kinda seems like a way to not have to define a world. Especially if they never bring it up.

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3 hours ago, Razule said:

Two worlds kinda seems like a way to not have to define a world. Especially if they never bring it up.

Unless it's literally like the Super Mario Bros. cartoon, having 2 worlds isn't that at all...

That's definitely the way it's being used, but it doesn't soley mean that.

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5 hours ago, Razule said:

Two worlds kinda seems like a way to not have to define a world. Especially if they never bring it up.

But they weren't defining it before.

Ok, so to go into the bit of the large post I accidentally deleted like an idiot. There's one thing I feel like a lot of you are forgetting, one element of the franchise that is key to all this, and i'm not mad at you forgetting. Because its speaks to how poor an idea it always was, and how terrible it was communicated every time, and how little impact it had.

Humans. Sonic's whole thing, or at least the thing they wanted sonic to be and it never worked out, is literally your friend. Your supposed to believe you could hang out with sonic, he could be right around the corner ready to wisk you away on cool adventures around the world. That's sort of the point, that is what sonic had been sold as for years, in games, anime, cartoons comics this has always been a consistent part of his character. Animal world didn't need to be defined, or even separated because it didn't matter. Its not what they saw sonic and friends are, they are supposed to make your lives better. The character with the most complicated backstory has his backstory seeped in humanland shit for that reason. They want sonic and friends to relate directly to you. They defined the world and made it in some many ways similar to ours because of it, it has structure, government history and lore that does not exist in a lot of the animal parts of the world, or animal world. Because you aren't supposed to think about animal world, sonic is supposed to be your cool friend, don't worry about that.

The issue is, it never worked. When they first tried to give sonic a human girlfriend, denied. Chris in sonic X? Even as a kid me and a lot of people I knew never liked chris or his friends, and didn't care about the humans except for like , topaz. Maria and Gerald die, and the only reason maria gets remembered is that she's a plot device for shadow, Gun general , Literally who? Elise? Litterally one of the most embarrassing moments in the entirety of the franchise and memed to this day. The only one of any note besides eggman is pickle. It never worked and it feels like the fanbase were more focused on making their own characters and living in sonic's world rather than having him and his friends come into their own.

And I think Sega finally came to terms with this, or realized this because they were so incompetent they just missed what their fanbase actually liked... or a weird combination of both about... around colors. This is when definitive changes about how sonic is presented and who he's around came up. Classic sonic comes back, other characters come back . More focus on explore weird shit that exists in sonic's universe.

And then you have like sonic boom, which I will say again is more indicative of what they want to do with the 3d part of this franchise than a lot of people want to admit. Its a whole new world, filled with animal characters, was going to have a chao world, had its own world and lore and was planned to be expanded upon. But that failed, but Sonic forces seems to picking up right where it left off in many respects. Sonic forces in its level design gives more world building to sonic's world that ... since like... sonic and knuckles. It confirms other animal people exist... and live places and have desires. I fully believe , unless i'm wrong , this will be the focus going forward doing stuff in sonic's world.

The two worlds thing isn't a means to not define a world. Its a means to quite literally push the human world out of the way so they can define the animal one.

Now some of you all might be like " Wow your hypothetical requires the belief that sega is so incompetent that they thought that being the cool animal characters wasn't the reason people liked this franchise with cool animals" , yes. I'm that cynical of them

 

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