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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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36 minutes ago, Riggo said:

Also, on Sonic’s “no-kill” policy—he really didn’t hesitate when killing King Arthur.

Think about it this way. If it's the right thing to do, he'll do it.

 

The right thing to do is vague, so it literally doesn't matter that you brought that up.

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Just now, Sega DogTagz said:

Both characters fully understood the stakes. Sonic pondered several times during the course of the issue if it was possible for the original Robotnik to bleed through and return to his evil ways. Sonic even assured Tinker at the end of the issue that he would be checking in on him - which was an obvious lampshade that he was going to keep tabs on the doctor to make sure he wasn't bluffing.

I think the part that you are missing, is that is all of that inflection is beside the point. To Sonic, It doesn't matter that there is a possibility for Tinker to revert. It doesn't matter how much pain and suffering he has caused over the years. Sonic has always acted in the moment. And at the moment, with what he was seeing and on the intuitions of Vector (who is undoubtedly one of the sagest characters in the series when it comes to hunches) - Tinker was not a threat.

Bringing up Shadows tribulations wasn't a dick move. It was a reminder that peoples past don't have to dictate their future. Sonic's flipped enough enemies into friends to know that, and its precisely why Shadow eventually relented.

 

And for all your talk of the narrative bending over backwards to make Sonic right... you do realize that his decisions will inevitably backfire right? The second Tinker becomes Eggman again, Shadow will come out smelling like hotel soap. In the long run - Sonic will be the one in the wrong, and he will be 100% okay with that, as should we.

I know that things will more or less validate Shadow, I just found the false equivalence annoying and also wanted to offer an alternate idea.

Seriously, did everyone forget about the latter half of my post or something?

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22450-idws-sonic-the-hedgehog/?do=findComment&comment=1246540

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42 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

i will note that Shadow did jump the gun at attacking Mr. Tinker, but this just ties back to my point about Shadow trying to do the right thing but often being too brutal or too extreme in his methods. It’s also why I mentioned everything else after the point you quoted; that was supposed to be a compromise between their views while still driving the plot forward. It gives Mr Tinker the chance to be redeemed of Eggman (satisfying Sonic’s view), while still ensuring that Eggman isn’t just being let off scot-free (satisfying Shadows side of things).

I was kind of hoping instead of like.... the whole thing with the new villian.

Eggman Gets conked on the head, and regains his memory. And when they return to the village its just decimated on fire, and everyone is gone and implied to be dead. And shadow's just kind of pissed and goes on some war path , leaving sonic to sort of deal with messing up.

This story was primed for some good sonic " I fucked up " but we will see where it goes

 

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Bringing up Shadows tribulations wasn't a dick move. It was a reminder that peoples past don't have to dictate their future. Sonic's flipped enough enemies into friends to know that, and its precisely why Shadow eventually relented.

That doesn't make sense. Because shadow's situation was " Oh I was being manipulated and i'm not now, guess i'll be good ". Ontop of that, Shadow... shouldn't care about what sonic thinks about flipping enemies. Sonic 06's whole story was about how shadow is gonna do what he wants to do , regardless of who tells him not to do whatever that thing is. Even if its satan from the future who looks like a blue recolor of himself with no feet.

The response to that sonic's query if shadow was written like shadow should be is

" OK then kill me " and then sonic goes " UH .. uh.. I didn't expect you to say that " but it wasn't, not because of sonic flipping ideology. Shadow doesn't really give a shit about what other people think of him. It wasn't that because that issue didn't matter, he was probably made to write a shadow issue  , the whole things filler and to have that at the end of a comic would require more than one issue. So they just had shadow stop because it was convenient and that's it.

My theory will be confirmed if no one acknolwedges that story happened and shadow literally goes back to doing the thing he's doing. And I gotta hunch that's exactly whats gonna happen

 

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

And for all your talk of the narrative bending over backwards to make Sonic right... you do realize that his decisions will inevitably backfire right? The second Tinker becomes Eggman again, Shadow will come out smelling like hotel soap. In the long run - Sonic will be the one in the wrong, and he will be 100% okay with that, as should we.

That depends on if they acknowledge it. And that's my issue with the whole story.

If eggman comes back, and that doesn't get brought back up. That entire series of events is pointless. So that bit only matters if that story matters, and I doubt it matters because it didn't really matter at the time and just felt like filler.

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1 hour ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Now that said, there is a way I think it could have been resolved that would have at least satisfied both parties and still moved the plot along in a natural manner: Put the village where he's staying at under discreet surveillance by the Chaotix. This solves a few points that I've seen pop up in some other forum poster's reviews of the current story arcs:

1) Gives Mr. Tinker the chance to live his life peacefully (and since he apparently does remember who he was, but didn't want to return to that life), but keep an eye on him in case he shows signs of Eggman returning, or it turns out he was faking all along.

2) Reduces the amount of characters needed to focus on for the Angel Island Arc, thus allowing for more focus on the remaining cast and to expand on the OCs like Tangle and Whisper.

3) Ensures that the Chaotix are allowed to still have a relevant role while also putting more emphasis on their strengths, and also possibly allowing for interaction with Mr. Tinker before the kidnapping.

4) Allows for a more seamless transition to Dr. Starline and the Rough and Tumble kidnapping, and their attempt to bring Eggman back.

 

3 & 4 in particular are important, because having the Chaotix at the village would allow for them to be developed separate from the big Resistance group in Battle Arc, and would allow them a chance to show more of their personalities when trying to keep an eye on Eggman, perhaps even come to realize that Mr. Tinker does remember but genuinely doesn't want to return to his evil self, allowing for character depth and exploration. Thus, once the Rough and Tumble duo attempt to kidnap him, there's a personal element to the whole thing as the Chaotix don't want to see a good person twisted back into evil.

Plus, it would also allow for a separate series of fights to occur, such as the Chaotix vs Rough and Tumble, allowing them to show off more of their abilities without being lost in the chaos of the battle against Metal Sonic. Then things could wrap up on their end with Dr. Starline making his debut and helping to defeat the Chaotix and kidnap Eggman, which the Chaotix would then either inform the main Resistance group about what happened before attempting to give chase, or Vector deciding to try to find where Starline took Eggman to using their team's detective skills out of anger, wounded pride, and personal concern for Mr. Tinker, thus again adding a personal element by the Chaotix feeling shame in their failure to guard him, and also allowing them to show off their best traits as unconventional detectives. And it ultimately adds an element of tragedy since they'll ultimately fail and Eggman will return.

I know this is a really late thing, but it's just something I need to get off my chest. It's too late for such a thing to happen now, but it's just my two cents.

What do you think?

Most of this would've been good or better.

The only difference is that I think it'd make more sense to just have Rough n Tumble eventually beat the Chaotix themselves. 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Or, maybe, it is actually part of Sonic's basic worldview to not kill people?

 

43 minutes ago, Riggo said:

Also, on Sonic’s “no-kill” policy—he really didn’t hesitate when killing King Arthur.

Yeah, Sonic's never really shown much aversion to having to kill at times. 

Hell, the Classics had him make an attempt to take out Robotnik as he makes an escape. 

30 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

That's because SEGA is so inconsistent with his personality. One game is "Oh yeah! We're the Sonic Heroes!" to "Can't always be the hero every time!" It's so annoying.

To be fair, "We're Sonic Heroes!" basically means "let's kick some badnik butt together!"

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14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That doesn't make sense. Because shadow's situation was " Oh I was being manipulated and i'm not now, guess i'll be good ".

Does that even matter? For one Shadow did not flip to the good side because he found out he was being manipulated. In the grand scheme of things, even if all his actions in SA2 were a direct result of Gerald using him for his revenge - Shadow still got what he wanted at the end of the day. When it came to light that the world was going to be destroyed, Shadow was content to stand by and watch. It was a suitable ends to his means for his own revenge.

Furthermore, Shadow didn't even flip to the good side following that. He spent Heroes and Shth trying to figure out who he was as his sole motivation and he wasn't exactly on Sonic's side in Battle either - showing up to kill Emerl in the first 5 seconds only to get rebuked by Sonic (doesn't that sound familiar 😉)

Shadow didn't actually flip until he said goodbye to himself at the end of Shth and choose to make the world a better place through his decision making in the subsequent games.

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Ontop of that, Shadow... shouldn't care about what sonic thinks about flipping enemies. Sonic 06's whole story was about how shadow is gonna do what he wants to do , regardless of who tells him not to do whatever that thing is. Even if its satan from the future who looks like a blue recolor of himself with no feet.

Shadow doing his own thing doesn't mean he is going to all of a sudden stop listening to logic. He's not a one-track machine that is incapable of accepting new inputs.

 

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The response to that sonic's query if shadow was written like shadow should be is

" OK then kill me " and then sonic goes " UH .. uh.. I didn't expect you to say that " but it wasn't, not because of sonic flipping ideology.

Please map out this conversation and tell me how that makes even the smallest shred of sense. Sonic wouldn't fall over himself like that because his entire point is that they should not kill Eggman. If Shadow were to quip "Kill Me" Sonic would refuse to do that and stick to his guns - thus proving his entire point that its okay to give people a chance to do good.

Shad doesn't have a moral leg to stand on here. Sonic just tells him to his face to give someone else the same chance he got post-amnesia.

 

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That depends on if they acknowledge it. And that's my issue with the whole story.

Even if they don't acknowledge it, we will know.

Even if they do, Sonic's not going to wallow is self-pity about it because regardless of where he goes from here he would be willing to make the same decision 100 times out of 100. Its in character and consistent with his motivations.

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57 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Does that even matter? For one Shadow did not flip to the good side because he found out he was being manipulated. In the grand scheme of things, even if all his actions in SA2 were a direct result of Gerald using him for his revenge - Shadow still got what he wanted at the end of the day. When it came to light that the world was going to be destroyed, Shadow was content to stand by and watch. It was a suitable ends to his means for his own revenge.

Furthermore, Shadow didn't even flip to the good side following that. He spent Heroes and Shth trying to figure out who he was as his sole motivation and he wasn't exactly on Sonic's side in Battle either - showing up to kill Emerl in the first 5 seconds only to get rebuked by Sonic (doesn't that sound familiar 😉)

Yeah it does, the manipulated memories he had in his head wore off and realized what he wanted... wasn't really what he wanted. Its kind of the plot of the game dude. If you want to say that he's still like responsible for his actions, I agree with you. But that does add context. He didn't want  that really, him wanting that was Dr. G Robotnik trying to assert his will 50 years later.

Actually he did, his whole thing in heroes was... being a hero. And... well the canon a route in SHTH given the final scene seems to be " Shadow teams up with everyone once and maybe tries to kill eggman then fights black doom" so... he was a hero there too.

As for sonic battle goes, its irrelevant and not canon because of Shadow the Hedgehog... so don't know why you brought that up. Doesn't play into what the modern interpretation of his character and his abilities are. Is what it is

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Shadow didn't actually flip until he said goodbye to himself at the end of Shth and choose to make the world a better place through his decision making in the subsequent games.

Except when he helped saved the day in that game and the game prior.

Quote

Shadow doing his own thing doesn't mean he is going to all of a sudden stop listening to logic. He's not a one-track machine that is incapable of accepting new inputs.

Why would shadow see that as logical? Shadow given who he is, would probably see the most logical course of action would be murdering eggman. Murdering eggman makes the world a better place, he doesn't feel bad about it and makes everyone's lives easier.

Quote

Please map out this conversation and tell me how that makes even the smallest shred of sense. Sonic wouldn't fall over himself like that because his entire point is that they should not kill Eggman. If Shadow were to quip "Kill Me" Sonic would refuse to do that and stick to his guns - thus proving his entire point that its okay to give people a chance to do good.

Map out how that scenario should have been? Sure.

So sonic is like " Well then what about you and all the things you did "

And shadow's like " If you feel like I am sufficient threat to the world at large, as much as Eggman.Take your shot "

Sonic: "... I"m not doing that "

Shadow: " I know you wont. my mission is to protect the world from danger. At all costs, no matter who it is. Even if its eggman, even if its you "

Sonic then actually thinks for two seconds and realizes that shadow's just on a fundamental level a different kind of cat, and this isn't an argument he's going to win. In that moment shadow rushes back to Mr. Tinker and tries to end the entire thing. Where he is stopped by children. Because instead of those children dissapearing into houses and not being seen because they would have to acknowledge the plot holes in sonic forces. They are here trying to defend the nice man who was nice to them from the bad guy. Shadow seeing this as a similar scenario he went though backs off. It isn't because of sonic, shadow should never really give a shit what sonic thinks in these scenarios. Its because he doesn't want to become a monster. The same type of monsters who trumatized him.

That way when Eggman comes back, Sonic isn't inherently wrong. And shadow's descion to let him go is fueled by his own desires, not some vague sense of moral right enacted because the author needed to end a story. Because now, when eggman comes back the lesson of that entire story is " Welp Should have committed a murder " .

Quote

Shad doesn't have a moral leg to stand on here. Sonic just tells him to his face to give someone else the same chance he got post-amnesia.

Shadow does because having your memories manipulated and then not, and then being a good person for most of your time alive. Is not comparible to someone who has spent seemingly everytime we have seen him, trying to be a dictator who turns people into robots. No matter how hard you want to compare them. They ain't the same, deal with it.

Quote

 

Even if they don't acknowledge it, we will know.

That doesn't matter. I can say shadow was right. But if the story doesn't acknowledge it, that robs him of that.

Quote

Even if they do, Sonic's not going to wallow is self-pity about it because regardless of where he goes from here he would be willing to make the same decision 100 times out of 100. Its in character and consistent with his motivations.

No one saying sonic should wallow in self pity. But maybe think about maybe he shouldn't but into peoples shit anymore or leave shadow alone or just think for two seconds would be fucking grand.

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20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Yeah it does, the manipulated memories he had in his head wore off and realized what he wanted... wasn't really what he wanted. Its kind of the plot of the game dude. If you want to say that he's still like responsible for his actions, I agree with you. But that does add context. He didn't want  that really, him wanting that was Dr. G Robotnik trying to assert his will 50 years later.

Its not the plot of the game. The extent to which Shadow is manipulated in the first place is widely up for debate.

And on top of all that, it does go to show the amount of power that Shadow has. World breaking power. Power that despite his intentions good or bad, will end up demonizing and ostrich-sizing him in the future. If anything, It sets the foundation of him being a threat no matter what path he follows. (Which culminates in 06)

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Actually he did, his whole thing in heroes was... being a hero.

His entire motivation was to get his memories back. Going through Eggman was the fastest and most logical way to do that. He wasn't saving the day because he chose to be a good guy, he was doing it as an ends to a means.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

And... well the canon a route in SHTH given the final scene seems to be " Shadow teams up with everyone once and maybe tries to kill eggman then fights black doom" so... he was a hero there too.

Even in the heroic path, Shadow more or less is still only pushing his own agenda above all else. Taking the fight to the black arms as soon as they appeared antagonistic was again Shadows best and fastest method of uncovering his past. In a telling feature, Shadow's hero gauge was filled when he dispelled evil aligned people and their stuff, not necessarily for doing good things.

Like Heroes, it just so happens that the things standing in his way were bad guys. There may have been a few good deeds sprinkled in, but he was laser focused on discovering who he was over all else. There wasn't an open alignment to being a hero right from the get-go.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Except when he helped saved the day in that game and the game prior.

Eggman has helped save the day multiple times. Does that make him a Hero too?

The circumstances matter.

 

I reiterate, Shadow did not choose to be a hero until the aftermath of Shth.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Why would shadow see that as logical? Shadow given who he is, would probably see the most logical course of action would be murdering eggman. Murdering eggman makes the world a better place, he doesn't feel bad about it and makes everyone's lives easier.

Shadow would see it as logical because he's been in that position before. As someone who was at one point was openly feared - but had carved out a new niche of doing good - here was Eggman doing the same thing.

And killing Eggman isn't the logical choice, its just the most convenient one.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Map out how that scenario should have been? Sure.

So sonic is like " Well then what about you and all the things you did "

And shadow's like " If you feel like I am sufficient threat to the world at large, as much as Eggman.Take your shot "

Sonic: "... I"m not doing that "

Shadow: " I know you wont. my mission is to protect the world from danger. At all costs, no matter who it is. Even if its eggman, even if its you "

 

So sonic is like " Well then what about you and all the things you did "

And shadow's like " If you feel like I am sufficient threat to the world at large, as much as Eggman.Take your shot "

"Why would I? I didn't back then and you turned out great"

 

Whats left to discuss here? Sonic didn't call out Shadow's past to show him he was just as much a potential threat as Eggman - he did so to show him that despite being a potential walking global-level catastrophe waiting to happen, when the opportunity arose to become an agent for good, he was allowed to make that change and the end result was something everyone benefited from. Mr Tinker was being offered that same chance.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic then actually thinks for two seconds and realizes that shadow's just on a fundamental level a different kind of cat, and this isn't an argument he's going to win. In that moment shadow rushes back to Mr. Tinker and tries to end the entire thing. Where he is stopped by children. Because instead of those children dissapearing into houses and not being seen because they would have to acknowledge the plot holes in sonic forces. They are here trying to defend the nice man who was nice to them from the bad guy. Shadow seeing this as a similar scenario he went though backs off. It isn't because of sonic, shadow should never really give a shit what sonic thinks in these scenarios. Its because he doesn't want to become a monster. The same type of monsters who trumatized him.

So your pitching an idea where Shadow backs down because he is afraid of how the village children will perceive him if he goes through with it? Because he doesn't want to be seen as a monster?

That sounds more out of character than anything that happens in the book. 06 showed us that he doesn't care what the world at large thinks of him, and even if it turns him into a pariah he would continue his mission and fight on. A few baby doll eyes shouldn't dampen his convictions. It just sounds like your projecting head canon.

 

The villagers knew who Mr. Tinker was the second he wandered into town. Eggman is the stuff of nightmares and a bogey man the world over and the entire village still opened up and welcome him in when he showed that he could be good. They had moved past what he was and were embracing the possibility of what he could be.

The only one stuck in the past is the guy who swore off his own.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That way when Eggman comes back, Sonic isn't inherently wrong. And shadow's descion to let him go is fueled by his own desires, not some vague sense of moral right enacted because the author needed to end a story. Because now, when eggman comes back the lesson of that entire story is " Welp Should have committed a murder " .

Thats a backwards way of thinking. I'll use an example.

A cop arrests a widely known Mobster. After a lengthy trial - the mobster goes free on a shady technicality. Mobster continues his life of crime.

Is the moral of the story the cop should have killed the mobster instead of arrest him? Because that's the kind of logic your using if you feel the moral of Eggman returning is Sonic should have just killed the guy when he had the chance.

Sonic was willing to provide the supervision to ensure Tinker was on the up-and-up. He said so himself. If Eggman showed any signs of resurfacing, he would have been the first one jumping on his tail. Its not like he washed his hands of it and walked away.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Shadow does because having your memories manipulated and then not, and then being a good person for most of your time alive. Is not comparible to someone who has spent seemingly everytime we have seen him, trying to be a dictator who turns people into robots. No matter how hard you want to compare them. They ain't the same, deal with it.

The comparison isn't about who they were - its about the opportunity that is being afforded to them.

Shadow was given a chance to hit that reset button. To choose for himself and do good. He worked from a clean slate and move forward. To deny Mr. Tinker, who was also starting from a clean slate, would be bombastically hypocritical. That's why Shadow ultimately relented. Even if he didn't agree with the risk Sonic was taking by letting Tinker stay free, by choosing any other option Shadow would be essentially condemning the choice he made for himself.

 

20 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That doesn't matter. I can say shadow was right. But if the story doesn't acknowledge it, that robs him of that.

No one saying sonic should wallow in self pity. But maybe think about maybe he shouldn't but into peoples shit anymore or leave shadow alone or just think for two seconds would be fucking grand.

He spent half the issue pondering if he was making the right choice. (there are like 4 flashback panels in this issue alone for crying out load) I would call that thinking for two seconds.

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TBH, Sonic not wanting to kill Eggman is also logical with Sonic japanese personna, where he doesn't see Eggman like a suprem evil or anything.

I think that the goal of the storyline is to play with the change of dynamic between Eggman and Sonic that Forces introduced. (With a more "evil" Eggman). Or maybe that's a way to go back to a more pre-Forces or even Sonic X-y (or pre-Colors, that was the first game introducing concept like slavery in relation to Eggman) vision of Eggman, with some parts of Mr Tinker remaining, IDK. Anyway, I'm interested to see where it's going to.

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Edit: Gonna listen to myself @Sega DogTagz I'm done. Had a long response here, deleted it. This story doesn't really matter, isn't going to matter. If it does maybe we can have an argument, but all signs point to this story not mattering so cares. I think you are wrong and are tying to compare the winter soilder to the red skull. But eh , it don't matter.

This story was built from the ground up no to matter or have any effects on the world at large or the characters. Just to show you shadow exists. So who cares

 

6 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

TBH, Sonic not wanting to kill Eggman is also logical with Sonic japanese personna, where he doesn't see Eggman like a suprem evil or anything.

I think that the goal of the storyline is to play with the change of dynamic between Eggman and Sonic that Forces introduced. (With a more "evil" Eggman). Or maybe that's a way to go back to a more pre-Forces or even Sonic X-y (or pre-Colors, that was the first game introducing concept like slavery in relation to Eggman) vision of Eggman, with some parts of Mr Tinker remaining, IDK. Anyway, I'm interested to see where it's going to.

I think the point of the story was introduce shadow because he had to and thought up a quick story about morality that wasn't that good but would be kind of satisfactory to hold people over until he could write a better story.

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1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Man, fuck Shadow heavy plots of late. :lol: 

Don't worry , none of this matters. I bet you my bottom dollar that none of that story will be addressed when eggman comes back , because doing so will force them to admit murdering people is good in a comic for children. And you probably shouldn't do that.

So this entire exercise in rhetoric is ultimately pointless, because that story will have not mattered

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I won't jump into this debate as I don't think I can really add anything, but I will say that this particular discourse has really just helped enforce all the more issue 6 being my least favorite of the IDW run thus far, even if there were less engaging volumes after it (issue 10 for me). Honestly it just makes me feel more and more that the comic would have been better off without issue 6 and that the Chaotix's mysterious hint to Eggman's location could have worked better as being from Dr. Starline as an experiment to see if seeing Sonic in person would jog the doctor's memory without needing further input from him. At this point Shadow honestly doesn't just feel unnecessary to the story, but like he is actively hurting it due to how he was included. Shame they just had to introduce all of the major players in Year 1 without really enough time to plan everything out better before they had to start writing scripts cause as @Shadowlax has said in the past holding off on introducing Shadow until later would have probably been better. Honestly, looking at Year 2 solicits thus far I feel issue 15 would have served better as an introduction to Shadow and Rouge and since the plot involves researching an Eggman supporter and would better show Shadow's unwillingness to work with Sonic rather than creating a moral argument out of a cracking ice where everyone loses because it wasn't a smart place to stand in the first place.

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13 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I won't jump into this debate as I don't think I can really add anything, 

I mean, yeah, that's generally a thing anyway, so it doesn't help.

13 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

but I will say that this particular discourse has really just helped enforce all the more issue 6 being my least favorite of the IDW run thus far, even if there were less engaging volumes after it (issue 10 for me). 

Yeah, same here.

14 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Honestly it just makes me feel more and more that the comic would have been better off without issue 6 and that the Chaotix's mysterious hint to Eggman's location could have worked better as being from Dr. Starline as an experiment to see if seeing Sonic in person would jog the doctor's memory without needing further input from him. 

Huh. That could've been an interesting way of approaching it.

And given his stated motivation, it'd likely be well in character.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I won't jump into this debate as I don't think I can really add anything, but I will say that this particular discourse has really just helped enforce all the more issue 6 being my least favorite of the IDW run thus far, even if there were less engaging volumes after it (issue 10 for me). Honestly it just makes me feel more and more that the comic would have been better off without issue 6 and that the Chaotix's mysterious hint to Eggman's location could have worked better as being from Dr. Starline as an experiment to see if seeing Sonic in person would jog the doctor's memory without needing further input from him. At this point Shadow honestly doesn't just feel unnecessary to the story, but like he is actively hurting it due to how he was included. Shame they just had to introduce all of the major players in Year 1 without really enough time to plan everything out better before they had to start writing scripts cause as @Shadowlax has said in the past holding off on introducing Shadow until later would have probably been better. Honestly, looking at Year 2 solicits thus far I feel issue 15 would have served better as an introduction to Shadow and Rouge and since the plot involves researching an Eggman supporter and would better show Shadow's unwillingness to work with Sonic rather than creating a moral argument out of a cracking ice where everyone loses because it wasn't a smart place to stand in the first place.

I don’t know if I should be annoyed or amused at how me bringing up my thoughts on the issue has caused just about everyone to fixate on the issue I brought up in the first half. 

Especially since almost everyone seems to have forgotten everything I said in the latter half -_-.

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22450-idws-sonic-the-hedgehog/?page=467&tab=comments#comment-1246540

 

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Just now, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I don’t know if I should be annoyed or amused at how me bringing up my thoughts on the issue has caused just about everyone to fixate on the issue I brought up in the first half. 

Especially since almost everyone seems to have forgotten everything I said in the latter half -_-.

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22450-idws-sonic-the-hedgehog/?page=467&tab=comments#comment-1246540

 

Because Shadow was popular, don'ca know?

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1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I won't jump into this debate as I don't think I can really add anything, but I will say that this particular discourse has really just helped enforce all the more issue 6 being my least favorite of the IDW run thus far, even if there were less engaging volumes after it (issue 10 for me). Honestly it just makes me feel more and more that the comic would have been better off without issue 6 and that the Chaotix's mysterious hint to Eggman's location could have worked better as being from Dr. Starline as an experiment to see if seeing Sonic in person would jog the doctor's memory without needing further input from him. At this point Shadow honestly doesn't just feel unnecessary to the story, but like he is actively hurting it due to how he was included. Shame they just had to introduce all of the major players in Year 1 without really enough time to plan everything out better before they had to start writing scripts cause as @Shadowlax has said in the past holding off on introducing Shadow until later would have probably been better. Honestly, looking at Year 2 solicits thus far I feel issue 15 would have served better as an introduction to Shadow and Rouge and since the plot involves researching an Eggman supporter and would better show Shadow's unwillingness to work with Sonic rather than creating a moral argument out of a cracking ice where everyone loses because it wasn't a smart place to stand in the first place.

Your idea for an alt issue 6 is pretty neat.

I feel like when I brought it up before people thought me suggesting shadow doesn't show up for a bit was some weird out of the way version of just aggressive fanboying. But I feel like this discussion, even though I bowed off it solidified my belief in the notion that shadow should have shown up. There are stories worth telling, there are stories aren't worth telling. And this is the latter the moral ending of this story will be undermined by the medium itself. So either future shadow story will have to acknowledge that, which would be telling a bunch of children murder is sometimes ok, or which is more likely... not acknowledge that at all. And I feel like if you have written a story where that's the ultimatum going forward, its a failure of writing, at least in the medium of comic books.

The Knuckles and Shadow stories were done better, because shadow was right , but that wasn't the point. Shadow shouldn't be trying to decide other's lives for them like that. Which is the whole reason shadow and knuckles were right. Now, was shadow right about the M.E, hell yeah. But it doesn't belong to him. The moral quandaries were saved for shadow's own thought process and knuckles's thoughts after the fact. Shadow's world view had an effect on him, but they weren't the focus's of the story. So when the ME would eventually get shattered, that wasn't the point. Shadow's right, but its not about shadow being right it was about shadow being less of an asshole. But the story presented is about who's right, but the question is going to be undermined by the status quo. So why even write that?

Its just weird an pointless.

And an edit. If I am to envoke a bit of fanboy-ishness, and i think i'm owed that much, Its kind of shitty for shadow. It would be real shitty if you did this whole thing to suggest shadow is wrong, even kind of laughing at him at the end of the book, only for him to be right and not acknowledged that. That's kind of a dump on the character, and that sorta sucks

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9 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I don’t know if I should be annoyed or amused at how me bringing up my thoughts on the issue has caused just about everyone to fixate on the issue I brought up in the first half. 

Especially since almost everyone seems to have forgotten everything I said in the latter half -_-.

Sorry, didn't mean to cause you any trouble especially as I brought my own thoughts on the matter to the fore again (they've actually changed some since more and more of the comic has become available for consumption) as your idea is pretty solid and address a number of good points. The only problem is a lot of my original problem had to do with Shadow failing his purpose to challenge Sonic's viewpoint as he is introduced after Sonic has already made up his mind. As a result Shadow has no affect on Sonic and it results in the whole issue feeling like wasted fluff which even your Chaotix idea would not address. It would definitely clean up the Metal Sonic battle though and not waste them as well as serve a better setup for what's to come with Dr. Starline while adding a sense of personal stakes and weight to the story. Unfortunately even for all of tat the same result could be achieved just from Sonic asking them to keep an eye on Mr. Tinker still making Shadow's inclusion meaningless. It was just to me at least a waste of a time and horribly mishandled introduction of the character. That said, I do like your Chaotix idea especially with how well it can tie into my thoughts on if their tip had come from Starline who already seemed to be aware that Eggman was there.

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like when I brought it up before people thought me suggesting shadow doesn't show up for a bit was some weird out of the way version of just aggressive fanboying. But I feel like this discussion, even though I bowed off it solidified my belief in the notion that shadow should have shown up. There are stories worth telling, there are stories aren't worth telling. And this is the latter the moral ending of this story will be undermined by the medium itself.

While I never explicitly ever said so I did pretty much agree with you for the most part. I may have felt the story could have worked out better if Shadow came in before Sonic made up his mind as then Sonic's own doubt on the matter would have had a wrench thrown into it. And even with the need to stick to the status quo, in that type of scenario it actually would have reinforced Sonic's own force of personality and probably given him a better argument to provide Shadow since he would have been needing to also convince himself still. As it is though it was definitely botched and it is an unfortunate stain on the start of the comic that will take some time to be put behind us. Even then though it will always be nagging at us since for as long as the comic persists Eggman will be the big bad and Sonic and Shadow could have prevented that by simply offing him when Shadow was willing and able. Using Shadow as he was in issue 6 pretty much assures that that moral mess will always cast a shadow over the story going forward and the depth of that shadow will only grow with the level of horrors that Eggman unleashes. It's unfortunately one of the worse types of mistakes to make due to its long lasting nature and that's just a shame. Hopefully future stories will possess good enough stories, characterizations, and better use of the characters and their morals to make it easier to forget.

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So how bout that game mechanic villain trio?

10 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Using Shadow as he was in issue 6 pretty much assures that that moral mess will always cast a shadow over the story going forward and the depth of that shadow will only grow with the level of horrors that Eggman unleashes.]

Image result for peter griffin get it

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17 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

While I never explicitly ever said so I did pretty much agree with you for the most part. I may have felt the story could have worked out better if Shadow came in before Sonic made up his mind as then Sonic's own doubt on the matter would have had a wrench thrown into it. And even with the need to stick to the status quo, in that type of scenario it actually would have reinforced Sonic's own force of personality and probably given him a better argument to provide Shadow since he would have been needing to also convince himself still. As it is though it was definitely botched and it is an unfortunate stain on the start of the comic that will take some time to be put behind us. Even then though it will always be nagging at us since for as long as the comic persists Eggman will be the big bad and Sonic and Shadow could have prevented that by simply offing him when Shadow was willing and able. Using Shadow as he was in issue 6 pretty much assures that that moral mess will always cast a shadow over the story going forward and the depth of that shadow will only grow with the level of horrors that Eggman unleashes. It's unfortunately one of the worse types of mistakes to make due to its long lasting nature and that's just a shame. Hopefully future stories will possess good enough stories, characterizations, and better use of the characters and their morals to make it easier to forget.

I think it will be fine, I read comics so its pretty easy for me to like brush off some bad issues that don't end up mattering, especially if it becomes better later. Hopefully it does. I think you can get past it if the story is good enough quality and they ignore hard enough. Or they make a story specifically making some contrived reason as to not worry about that issue.

I just hope they don't repeat the mistakes

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16 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Sorry, didn't mean to cause you any trouble especially as I brought my own thoughts on the matter to the fore again (they've actually changed some since more and more of the comic has become available for consumption) as your idea is pretty solid and address a number of good points. The only problem is a lot of my original problem had to do with Shadow failing his purpose to challenge Sonic's viewpoint as he is introduced after Sonic has already made up his mind. As a result Shadow has no affect on Sonic and it results in the whole issue feeling like wasted fluff which even your Chaotix idea would not address. It would definitely clean up the Metal Sonic battle though and not waste them as well as serve a better setup for what's to come with Dr. Starline while adding a sense of personal stakes and weight to the story. Unfortunately even for all of tat the same result could be achieved just from Sonic asking them to keep an eye on Mr. Tinker still making Shadow's inclusion meaningless. It was just to me at least a waste of a time and horribly mishandled introduction of the character. That said, I do like your Chaotix idea especially with how well it can tie into my thoughts on if their tip had come from Starline who already seemed to be aware that Eggman was there.

While I never explicitly ever said so I did pretty much agree with you for the most part. I may have felt the story could have worked out better if Shadow came in before Sonic made up his mind as then Sonic's own doubt on the matter would have had a wrench thrown into it. And even with the need to stick to the status quo, in that type of scenario it actually would have reinforced Sonic's own force of personality and probably given him a better argument to provide Shadow since he would have been needing to also convince himself still. As it is though it was definitely botched and it is an unfortunate stain on the start of the comic that will take some time to be put behind us. Even then though it will always be nagging at us since for as long as the comic persists Eggman will be the big bad and Sonic and Shadow could have prevented that by simply offing him when Shadow was willing and able. Using Shadow as he was in issue 6 pretty much assures that that moral mess will always cast a shadow over the story going forward and the depth of that shadow will only grow with the level of horrors that Eggman unleashes. It's unfortunately one of the worse types of mistakes to make due to its long lasting nature and that's just a shame. Hopefully future stories will possess good enough stories, characterizations, and better use of the characters and their morals to make it easier to forget.

Oh no don’t worry, you didn’t cause me any trouble. I was just noting how everyone more or less forgot the latter half of my post and just used your post as a jumping point for it.

Yeah the whole moral thing probably could have been done sans Shadow, I just wanted to offer an alternate path that at least tried to address some (if not all) of the issues given what we got.

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4 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Oh no don’t worry, you didn’t cause me any trouble. I was just noting how everyone more or less forgot the latter half of my post and just used your post as a jumping point for it.

Yeah the whole moral thing probably could have been done sans Shadow, I just wanted to offer an alternate path that at least tried to address some (if not all) of the issues given what we got.

So back to something fresh worth talking about

12 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

Most of this would've been good or better.

The only difference is that I think it'd make more sense to just have Rough n Tumble eventually beat the Chaotix themselves. 

 

Yeah, Sonic's never really shown much aversion to having to kill at times. 

Hell, the Classics had him make an attempt to take out Robotnik as he makes an escape. 

To be fair, "We're Sonic Heroes!" basically means "let's kick some badnik butt together!"

 

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4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

So how bout that game mechanic villain trio?

I am kind of curious about it since there is nothing about Starline that we've seen that makes me think of a game mechanic yet. Of course with how many different gameplay types and mechanics that this series has it would be kind of hard to narrow it down so easily without the whole trio present. Shame their introductions have been delayed for now.

On an aside though, with how many mechanics this series has they should open up an auto repair shop and make some extra dough 🤣

4 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

BTW, shouldn't we have previews by now? It's Wednesday, my dudes.

 

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:


The comic was never real, it was all a ruse by Ken Penders

 

 

Just now, DabigRG said:

Played this stinking audience like a harp for hfil!

I'm sure there'll be something out by day's end so I'm not worried.

Just now, Shadowlax said:

I think it will be fine, I read comics so its pretty easy for me to like brush off some bad issues that don't end up mattering, especially if it becomes better later. Hopefully it does. I think you can get past it if the story is good enough quality and they ignore hard enough. Or they make a story specifically making some contrived reason as to not worry about that issue.

I just hope they don't repeat the mistakes

Hopefully. Flynn has done a good job cleaning up other people's messes (no less the franchise's creators') in the past so hopefully he can do a solid job cleaning up his own mess as well.

2 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Oh no don’t worry, you didn’t cause me any trouble. I was just noting how everyone more or less forgot the latter half of my post and just used your post as a jumping point for it.

Yeah the whole moral thing probably could have been done sans Shadow, I just wanted to offer an alternate path that at least tried to address some (if not all) of the issues given what we got.

Glad to hear and I'm always glad to see attempts to clean up certain problems, especially in this franchise. The only problem with issue 6 really by this point is as is it will better off the sooner it can be forgotten which is such a shame.

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