Jump to content
Dejimon11

IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Wraith said:

That's all fantasy cartoon shit you're talking about vs very real holocaust allegories in my Sonic comic 

Like I don't want to like say no childrens product can't address any bad thing, but the comic never did it well... or even an interesting way. Refencing real life bad stuff requires a cadence and a tact the comic never had... about anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'd argue that these elements arent actually even outside the realm of "kid's movie" with the way the games skirt around them through their presentation. Like Shadow's back story is gassed up by sonic fans as being some awful betrayal of tone and it sounds kinda weird on paper but a lot of it is taken from a Pokémon movie so...yeah

 

All of that aside they're still not fucking direct references to the holocaust. Like, wake up and think about what you're saying for a second.

I know what i’m saying, and it still stands. 

Sega has tried to turn Sonic into many things, from sci-fi government conspiracies, gods and demons, alien invasions, and war. They’ve tried to make this franchise mature by having realistic guns and cussing with ShTH, to trying to turn him into Final Fantasy come Sonic 06. They’ve tried making him similar to Mario in Lost World, and they’ve tried to go back to a darker route in Forces.

Cartoon fantasy or not, given that very bizzare and haphazard history, do you really think they wouldn’t have attempted something along the lines of what the comics have done, even if it was their own flair to it? They probably wouldn’t have plagerized a Holocaust poem like Penders did, but aside from that do you honestly think they wouldn’t attempt some of the other things he did if they had the chance?

It wouldn’t fly as easily nowadays given the hindsight they have to look back, but at the same time that Penders was? 

20 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

Fair enough, but still, I'm arguing that the worst of the games is just poorly executed goofy bullshit, whereas the worst of the comics have been uncomfortable and outright offensive at times.

Of which I still wouldn’t put past them doing some of that for the games during the same period given the stuff they were already pulling at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Of which I still wouldn’t put past them doing some of that for the games during the same period given the stuff they were already pulling at the time.

I think the difference here is that they didn't and haven't done that. Regardless of how you believe they would've - they evidently didn't. Probably because they were self-aware enough to realise it was a really, really dumb idea. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I know what i’m saying, and it still stands. 

Sega has tried to turn Sonic into many things, from sci-fi government conspiracies, gods and demons, alien invasions, and war. They’ve tried to make this franchise mature by having realistic guns and cussing with ShTH, to trying to turn him into Final Fantasy come Sonic 06. They’ve tried making him similar to Mario in Lost World, and they’ve tried to go back to a darker route in Forces.

Cartoon fantasy or not, given that very history, do you really think they wouldn’t have attempted something along the lines of what the comics have done? They probably wouldn’t have plagerized a Holocaust poem like Penders did, but aside from that do you honestly think they wouldn’t attempt some of the other things he did if they had the chance?

Of which I still wouldn’t put past them doing some of that for the games during the same period given the stuff they were already pulling at the time.

So it's not that the games are more bizarre than the comics, but that they potentially might have been at some point because of some jarring tonal shifts and awkwardly executed but ultimately silly scenes like Shadow packing heat?

And really, I think the Holocaust references alone elevate the comics to a level of tastelessness and weirdness that even the worst game Sega could shit out ever would. You could have a game where Sonic outright tells Tails to go fuck himself, it still wouldn't be as bad and uncomfortable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

The worst shit the games have - a human kissing an anthropomorphic animal guy, which is awkwardly executed but still a pretty typical fairy tale thing - is far, far less bizarre and uncomfortable than shit like Echidna Auschwitz and "First they came for the hedgehogs".

What the shit?

32 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

So what makes the apocalypses, werehog, demons, and demonic aliens the games have done get a pass among other things?

Because it happened in the games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

I think the difference here is that they didn't and haven't done that. Regardless of how you believe they would've - they evidently didn't. Probably because they were self-aware enough to realise it was a really, really dumb idea. 

But they weren’t self-aware enough to realize realistic guns were a bad idea?

Maybe they had their own plans in mind given how little they cared about the comics and decided to do that. I doubt they’d realize it’s a dumb idea given that they were doing any better themselves at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But they weren’t self-aware enough to realize realistic guns were a bad idea?

Maybe they had their own plans in mind given how little they cared about the comics and decided to do that. I doubt they’d realize it’s a dumb idea given that they were doing any better themselves at the time.

You're literally just coming up with scenarios in your head now where Sega might have become as bad as Penders.

also holocaust references vs. goofy b-movie shlock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

Cartoon fantasy or not, given that very bizzare and haphazard history, do you really think they wouldn’t have attempted something along the lines of what the comics have done, even if it was their own flair to it? They probably wouldn’t have plagerized a Holocaust poem like Penders did, but aside from that do you honestly think they wouldn’t attempt some of the other things he did if they had the chance?

 

I can only judge what exists, and what Sega was selling was mostly Sci fi and fantasy shit that happened to be popular in other media that was aimed at their target audience at the time. Sonic was designed to compete with what was current from the start so he's always been a bit of a culture vulture so to speak. He picks up a new hat and puts it down and moves to the next one. This comes with some tonal shifts but the extremes of such have been woefully exaggerated by years of discourse. It's all dumb cartoon shit, just in different flavors. 

With as many games as they put out and as many times as you could argue they sold out they never got close to Penders level of melodramatic writing or questionable content. I don't care about what they 'could have' done. They flat out never went there and that's the end of it for me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Indigo Rush said:

Y'all have no idea how weird the Archie Comics were back then. Ian Flynn was such a boon to the franchise; bless him for cleaning up the mess.

Oh, I read most of the Knuckles Series and certain bits of the early comic run.

I just didn't recall that first one in particular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Cartoon fantasy or not, given that very bizzare and haphazard history, do you really think they wouldn’t have attempted something along the lines of what the comics have done, even if it was their own flair to it? They probably wouldn’t have plagerized a Holocaust poem like Penders did, but aside from that do you honestly think they wouldn’t attempt some of the other things he did if they had the chance?

I don't think they would have, to be honest. Even when Sega is/was attempting to make Sonic appear more mature with the things you cited, all they were really doing was adding action movie and shonen anime fluff to the mix. You have to remember at the time Archie had virtually no oversight from Sega and their writers got away with a lot of things. When that oversight came back, it's no surprise other writers and editors did a pretty major course correction. It was so major that it forced Penders to quit because he didn't like working with the restrictions or having the Sega characters be a focus in stories about his own characters.

10 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But they weren’t self-aware enough to realize realistic guns were a bad idea?

The guns came about because of requests they'd gotten and they felt Shadow, who was decidedly more offbeat and different from Sonic, but also equally popular at the time, was the only candidate who could pull it off and have a game made around him. I'm not saying it was a good idea, but it's not too weird why they did it even if they did it badly. Sonic Team being incompetent or not understanding their feedback is certainly not news.

I think it's important to understand why the decisions were made versus the fact that they were made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I mean is cream really that big a deal? What exactly has she ever done that is just wow factor. 

What the average Sonic character is capable of and a little bit of then some.

Point is, she's a character some people wanna see get to do and hopefully be stuff again.

3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

We need a normal civilian.

I mean, sure, that too.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

We've seen dozens already.

One that's both notable and actually thinks like one, then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Heckboy said:

You're literally just coming up with scenarios in your head now where Sega might have become as bad as Penders.

also holocaust references vs. goofy b-movie shlock

Yeah, they might.

Even though they didn’t, they’ve pulled enough bizarre and outlandish things in the past that I wouldn’t put it past them in the past. 

Regardless of the Holocaust reference vs goofy b-movie slock, Sega weren’t doing any better at the time given they were off in a bizzare direction themselves.

6 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I don't think they would have, to be honest. Even when Sega is/was attempting to make Sonic appear more mature with the things you cited, all they were really doing was adding action movie and shonen anime fluff to the mix. You have to remember at the time Archie had virtually no oversight from Sega and their writers got away with a lot of things. When that oversight came back, it's no surprise other writers and editors did a pretty major course correction.

Yeah, but Sega failed attempts had a much bigger impact. Given that they gave the idea for ShTH the greenlight, I don’t see how they wouldn’t have considered some of the bizarre things from the comics if the idea flew past them. 

7 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

The guns came about because of requests they'd gotten and they felt Shadow, who was decidedly more offbeat and different from Sonic, but also equally popular at the time, was the only candidate who could pull it off and have a game made around him.

I think it's important to understand why the decisions were made versus the fact that they were made.

I thought that’s why they made Gamma use guns given that was the very reason they stated in an old Adventure interview?

When they did that for Shadow, it looked more like they were jumping the GTA/Halo bandwagon instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah, I listened to that one a week or two ago. Guess I forgot to say anything, if I even thought it was worth it.

Ummm... how? The Bumblekast was today. That would be impossible.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, they might.

Even though they didn’t, they’ve pulled enough bizarre and outlandish things in the past that I wouldn’t put it past them in the past. 

Regardless of the Holocaust reference vs goofy b-movie slock, Sega weren’t doing any better at the time given they were off in a bizzare direction themselves.

I know you wouldn't put it past them. But they didn't, and that's what matters. The most bizarre shit in the games is shonen-tier bullshit that's less off-putting than concentration camps and awful melodrama.

I don't even get what you're arguing anymore. "The games are clearly more bizarre than the comics because in my imagined alternate universe Sega might have incorporated Penders-style ideas in the games."

9 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I don’t see how they wouldn’t have considered some of the bizarre things from the comics if the idea flew past them. 

We can speculate about what they might have considered a decade ago all we want. The point is they never got to that level. 

9 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

it looked more like they were jumping the GTA/Halo bandwagon instead.

Yeah, that's what was popular and what kids wanted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

I know you wouldn't put it past them. But they didn't, and that's what matters. The most bizarre shit in the games is shonen-tier bullshit that's less off-putting than concentration camps and awful melodrama.

We can speculate about what they might have considered a decade ago all we want. The point is they never got to that level. 

Until Forces rolled in and skirted the line with a world war?

I suppose the saving grace from that is they learned not to be as immature as ShTH despite the botched attempt. But 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Until Forces rolled in and skirted the line with a world war?

I suppose the saving grace from that is they learned not to be as immature as ShTH despite the botched attempt. But 

Forces' fairly basic premise of a world conquered by Eggman is not even close to appropriating Holocaust literature for Sonic the Hedgehog. I think you know that. I bloody hope you know that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Until Forces rolled in and skirted the line with a world war?

I suppose the saving grace from that is they learned not to be as immature as ShTH despite the botched attempt. But 

Your entire reason for thinking the games are more bizarre than the comics is based on what they might have done or almost did.

Also a fucking cartoony action movie premise of "Eggman takes over" still doesn't come close to actual, literal Holocaust references. You seem to keep dodging that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, but Sega failed attempts had a much bigger impact. Given that they gave the idea for ShTH the greenlight, I don’t see how they wouldn’t have considered some of the bizarre things from the comics if the idea flew past them. 

That would be because Sonic is a game franchise and the failures of those are much more apparent to people who aren't actively a part of this fandom. I'm pretty sure I remember people in 2014 who didn't understand that Boom was a spin-off and considered Rise of Lyric Sonic Team's failure because Sonic games already had a bad reputation (and that's ignoring the likely initiated that said that because Sonic fans are so easy to rile up).

With Penders in particular (since he seems to be the focus of this), because Sega wasn't paying attention, he put that stuff in so overtly because he was desperate to be taken seriously as a writer. While I respect him wanting to make Sonic more than a funny animal book and even trying to make the book grow up with its audience, he went about it the wrong way (the man has zero tact).

Sega did this too, and did it by trying to match whatever trends were popular in gaming to keep Sonic relevant. Which brings me to the point about Shadow:

41 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I thought that’s why they made Gamma use guns given that was the very reason they stated in an old Adventure interview?

When they did that for Shadow, it looked more like they were jumping the GTA/Halo bandwagon instead.

I've read a few different things, but I recall among other things that Shadow came out in the form it did because they wanted to make a gun action game and did it based on Shadow's popularity. This interview with Naka is the one I found, but I also recall one with Iizuka that specifically cited American audiences as an influence (the main part of Sonic Team was based in America at the time) but unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think maybe they feel like sonic forces using a visual style referencing a famous type of poster is the same thing as referencing the holocaust as a means of a story telling device. I don't think they are correct on that, but maybe that's the idea.

Also on note that's not about the comic referencing things poorly. I just i dunno... I never felt before flynn got there ( and heck... or even untill the reboot tbh ) the book ever cared who the game characters were supposed to be really. And that was a major turn off to me. Despite wild shifts in tone with the games, they sort of get the characters.

To reference a specific arc I think the future arc is a prime example of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Forces' fairly basic premise of a world conquered by Eggman is not even close to appropriating Holocaust literature for Sonic the Hedgehog. I think you know that. I bloody hope you know that. 

I do, that’s why I also said it skirts the line with a world war.

But given it’s premise, I wouldn’t be shocked if they had Eggman make a concentration camp of anthros if they wanted to, because they already had a lazy reference to torture (that may not have actually happened given Sonic’s expression) and it was already a premise where that wouldn’t be unexpected.

24 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

Your entire reason for thinking the games are more bizarre than the comics is based on what they might have done or almost did.

No, my entire reason was that what the bizarre games and the comics were pulling were no better than each other. I said that three pages ago and repeated in on the last page. Even considering this being a fantasy cartoon, both the comics and the games have brought material unlike what you’d expect and done a poor job with them in the past.

You might disagree with which is worse, but that still doesn’t go against my point I’ve beeing saying from the start.

Quote

Also a fucking cartoony action movie premise of "Eggman takes over" still doesn't come close to actual, literal Holocaust references. You seem to keep dodging that.

Or maybe I don’t think the likes of concentration camps and melodrama are outside the realm of a cartoon action flick given its been done before in other cartoon works. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And here I thought the problem with the things in the comic in that era was because Penders was a fucking hack rather than because the always-darker-in-tone Archie comics drew parallels to real life things as a point of comparison befitting the setting just like other media (some of which also targeted to kids) has done in a similar fashion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Tornado said:

And here I thought the problem with the things in the comic in that era was because Penders was a fucking hack rather than because the always-darker-in-tone Archie comics drew parallels to real life things as a point of comparison befitting the setting just like other media (some of which also targeted to kids) has done in a similar fashion.

Because plagiarizing a poem about the Holocaust is befitting the setting of Sonic the fucking Hedgehog.

The problem with the comic was that he's a hack AND made tasteless references to real life things on top of that, which is something even Sega never did in their most idiotic moments. As far as shifts in tone go, Archie has at least one extreme example that goes far beyond anything in the games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I do, that’s why I also said it skirts the line with a world war.

But given it’s premise, I wouldn’t be shocked if they had Eggman make a concentration camp of anthros if they wanted to, because they already had a lazy reference to torture (that may not have actually happened given Sonic’s expression) and it was already a premise where that wouldn’t be unexpected.

Yeah, but you know what they still didn't do? That. 

What you think's happened in some alternate reality is not what actually happened in the game in the real world we live in, whereas Penders actually did appropriate a Holocaust poem for Sonic the Hedgehog. Stop conflating the two. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.