Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, Splash the Otter said:

My point is that if one Earth doesn't have to be realistic, neither does the other.

But by your example... it used earth as a reference for being earth. So while it isn't clearly the most realistic depiction of earth, its supposed to be. 

Sonic land is sonic land and has never attempted to be anything else. 

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No, that would be Heroes.

Anyway, I'd like to learn more about Iizuka's gate. Based on SA1 we can infer that it's thousands of years old and large enough to accommodate a landmass the size of Angel Island. It also seems to be accessible enough that people can easily travel back and forth between worlds, which raises the question of why there isn't a greater mix of humans and furries on either planet.

I forgot about heroes. 

I hate heroes

 

And even still that's like... two times. Damn shadow's weird. Shadow's entire...everything is tied up in the human world, becuase he promised to protect, " earth " which at the time we assumed was one thing , but its now one of two things, or even 3 because blaze. Like what is gun even on animal world, because I got a feeling the comic is gonna focus on animal world. So , like what the hell is shadow going to do?

Yeah I don't see him showing up in the comic for a while

[Almar]

We haven't seen GUN in a main Sonic game since 06. It's not a stretch that it was just secret retconned and isn't in the series any more as far as Iizuka Team cares.

And the obvious plan for Two Worlds is to just ignore every game before Unleashed (which was a sorta reboot anyway) beyond the broad strokes. So the Sonic Adventure we played never happened but something happened where Chaos showed up. The Sonic Adventure 2 we have didn't happen but Shadow first met Sonic as an enemy. And so on.

[Splash the Otter]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But by your example... it used earth as a reference for being earth. So while it isn't clearly the most realistic depiction of earth, its supposed to be. 

Sonic land is sonic land and has never attempted to be anything else.

Maybe so, but unless a series is explicitly stated to be set on another planet (like Popstar in the Kirby series for example) I tend to assume it takes place on Earth, no matter how unrealistic it looks.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

We haven't seen GUN in a main Sonic game since 06. It's not a stretch that it was just secret retconned and isn't in the series any more as far as Iizuka Team cares.

They were in the comic though.  Which were a thing untill last year , along with that. For shadow to exist...gun has to exist. 

So Unless they are going to reboot the entierty of sonic adventure 2, which I wouldn't mind at all actually. I would mind if they rebooted sonic adventure 1 and 2, but I doubt they are doing that. So the question is what is shadow gonna do

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And the obvious plan for Two Worlds is to just ignore every game before Unleashed (which was a sorta reboot anyway) beyond the broad strokes. '

 

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So the Sonic Adventure we played never happened but something happened where Chaos showed up. The Sonic Adventure 2 we have didn't happen but Shadow first met Sonic as an enemy. And so on.

That's kind of impossible for shadow. 

Edit:

Shadow's popularity a large part of it, relies on his character motivation and who he is as a character. He's one of the few characters in sonic that actually has character motivation that changes him as a character over a long period of time. And how shadow's backstory is set up, you can't remove gun, maria or gerald wth out making the story if you don't offer a replacement. Along with shadow's character kind of not having any motivation, if you just remove it. That happened, it was sonic boom, it was really bad. Shadow's character motivation explains who he is, you kinda can't get rid of that with out rebooting it. You also super kind of can't get rid of it without rebooting it because sonic adventure 2 one of the most popular sonic games period and spawed shadow... the most popular sonic character not named sonic. So yeah. What you suggest isn't an option 

But we aren't event talking about that. Because there's a simple fix for that, sort of. But it opens up a problem i'll get to the end of this. So GUN is a government organization. Those can be shut down. GUN was shut down, or they quit, ect etc. Simple fix to nix the humans or gun or both. That's the problem, the problem is ok. What is team dark at that point. Because Shadow, Rouge and Omega are not the chaotix or Sonic team. They aren't not hanging outside of duty, and now that they aren't like being run by an organization and there's no calamity . They wont be hanging out, or they shuoldn't be. Which is... also fine, its something that I wanted. My issue is, not even issue, but question is

What are they going to with shadow's character at this point. Are they gonna just start up the alien plotline again, what is he gonna do out there by himself. I'm sure they can find plenty for him to do, and plenty of folks for him to interact with. I'm just curious as to how they get that going. And due to complications with his story I don't seem him being the first ones to be around. but due to his popularity he will be around. 

So remember that problem I mentioned. 

Ok So if sonic land and earth land are two different world. Why is shadow in sonic land? Shadow has no connection to that planet whatsoever. He promised maria to protect earth. And that's... not earth. And it has plenty of protectors, while Normal Earth only has GUN and incompetent government organization with an unfortunate name. So why wouldn't he just stay on earth? Like him caring about sonic land actually doesn't really make sense, and only made sense with sonic land and earth land were the same. Now that they are two seperate lands. Shadows... everything is on earth land. 

So like.... How do you...explain that? Unless they are gonna remove maria and gun and gerald from his backstory, then...how are they gonna do that? Like... yeah. 

I can think of some stories, but they invovle like , sonic land being locked off from human land. Or like Shadow wanting to protect the multiverse. And the latter sounds sick and sounds like it ends up with some thousand year old shadow that's just Edgy Dr.Who.  But you would need to give shadow some major power ups for that

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 hours ago, Almar said:

We haven't seen GUN in a main Sonic game since 06. It's not a stretch that it was just secret retconned and isn't in the series any more as far as Iizuka Team cares.

This is weird trend I see on this forum lately. Fans that claim that things are no longer cannon... just because. Like continuity is hard to follow enough, let's just make it harder on everyone and question everything. Do you people have nothing better to do?

I have idea: I'll claims Sonic 1, Sonic Eraser and Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car are the only cannon games. Everything after 1991 is not canon. Even if game has sequel, this sequel is not canon anyway, so who cares. It's stupid, but you can't disprove my logic. It's consistent in its idiocy.

[Eurisko]

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

This is weird trend I see on this forum lately. Fans that claim that things are no longer cannon... just because. Like continuity is hard to follow enough, let's just make it harder on everyone and question everything. Do you people have nothing better to do?

I have idea: I'll claims Sonic 1, Sonic Eraser and Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car are the only cannon games. Everything after 1991 is not canon. Even if game has sequel, this sequel is not canon anyway, so who cares. It's stupid, but you can't disprove my logic. It's consistent in its idiocy.

Canon in this series isn't even worth trying to figure out. There's so much change and contradictions..... I say just enjoy the whole thing and not worry about it.

[Salamander]

Sonic Team have essentially given up on game canon at this point, so I have, too.  They don't care about the past, they don't care about making things consistent, they don't care about the world, everything they do is solely focussed on setting up the particular game they're working on at the time, in a vacuum from anything other than what they think the fans will go for.  That's the reason the world and its people have no name, that's the reason why they can't decide how many worlds or timelines there are, that's the reason why powers, roles, histories, personalities fluctuate so wildly between installments, it's because they only exist on a per-game basis, and there's no interest in creating any connecting tissue.  So the game canon has basically been junked at this point, there's no point arguing what is or isn't canon because whatever conception you come up with will have been thrown out by the next game.  The only real question is how badly this will taint the comics.  Will Flynn and co. have to leave almost everything vague and up in the air just in case it contradicts whatever Sonic Team decide the canon is for the next game?

[Splash the Otter]

46 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Sonic Team have essentially given up on game canon at this point, so I have, too.  They don't care about the past, they don't care about making things consistent, they don't care about the world, everything they do is solely focussed on setting up the particular game they're working on at the time, in a vacuum from anything other than what they think the fans will go for.  That's the reason the world and its people have no name, that's the reason why they can't decide how many worlds or timelines there are, that's the reason why powers, roles, histories, personalities fluctuate so wildly between installments, it's because they only exist on a per-game basis, and there's no interest in creating any connecting tissue.  So the game canon has basically been junked at this point, there's no point arguing what is or isn't canon because whatever conception you come up with will have been thrown out by the next game.  The only real question is how badly this will taint the comics.  Will Flynn and co. have to leave almost everything vague and up in the air just in case it contradicts whatever Sonic Team decide the canon is for the next game?

And now you've got me fearing the worst again. Thanks a lot!

[Your Vest Friend]

Nah, there are some things that will definitely be non-canon forever. Those examples are rare and due to very exceptional circumstances.

On the flip side, Ian said that SEGA do have a list of canon games (it was said recently too), and if (emphasis on 'if') he could he'd like to reveal it at some time.

[andrewtuell1991]

24 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

On the flip side, Ian said that SEGA do have a list of canon games (it was said recently too), and if (emphasis on 'if') he could he'd like to reveal it at some time.

I'd also like to see that list just to see what's what and try to get a feel of where Sega's head is at.  Outside the main console games and maybe the Rush duo (they were the only handheld to get stage representation in Generations) it's hard to pinpoint where all the side stuff lies.  Best example being Iizuka's stance on Chaotix for 32X to be non-canon as Heroes re-introduced the trio as new characters.  Another one being during one of the bumblekasts Ian stated that Sonic R of all things was canon.  What story does Sonic R even have to offer?

[DabigRG]

31 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Nah, there are some things that will definitely be non-canon forever. Those examples are rare and due to very exceptional circumstances.

On the flip side, Ian said that SEGA do have a list of canon games (it was said recently too), and if (emphasis on 'if') he could he'd like to reveal it at some time.

You mean beside Sonic R? 

[Multikaris]

On 3/2/2018 at 1:41 AM, FFWF said:

Sonic Team have essentially given up on game canon at this point, so I have, too.  They don't care about the past, they don't care about making things consistent, they don't care about the world, everything they do is solely focussed on setting up the particular game they're working on at the time, in a vacuum from anything other than what they think the fans will go for.  That's the reason the world and its people have no name, that's the reason why they can't decide how many worlds or timelines there are, that's the reason why powers, roles, histories, personalities fluctuate so wildly between installments, it's because they only exist on a per-game basis, and there's no interest in creating any connecting tissue.  So the game canon has basically been junked at this point, there's no point arguing what is or isn't canon because whatever conception you come up with will have been thrown out by the next game.  The only real question is how badly this will taint the comics.  Will Flynn and co. have to leave almost everything vague and up in the air just in case it contradicts whatever Sonic Team decide the canon is for the next game?

And i’m pretty glad people like Taxman are attempting to keep some degree of canon around, such as the cameo of the Master Emerald in Mania. 

 

“You want canon? There’s no canon! There’s never been any canon! CANON IS JUST A MYTH!”

 

[PublicEnemy1]

11 hours ago, FFWF said:

Sonic Team have essentially given up on game canon at this point, so I have, too.  They don't care about the past, they don't care about making things consistent, they don't care about the world, everything they do is solely focussed on setting up the particular game they're working on at the time, in a vacuum from anything other than what they think the fans will go for.  That's the reason the world and its people have no name, that's the reason why they can't decide how many worlds or timelines there are, that's the reason why powers, roles, histories, personalities fluctuate so wildly between installments, it's because they only exist on a per-game basis, and there's no interest in creating any connecting tissue.  So the game canon has basically been junked at this point, there's no point arguing what is or isn't canon because whatever conception you come up with will have been thrown out by the next game.  The only real question is how badly this will taint the comics.  Will Flynn and co. have to leave almost everything vague and up in the air just in case it contradicts whatever Sonic Team decide the canon is for the next game?

So, they're just like Nintendo and Mario: They don't care about story.

[Shadowlax]

I think that's a bit of a " doom" scenario, and actions they have taken even in things like sonic boom has shown they care about like not having lore out in the world that they can't control . 

I think the issue is, they don't know what the fuck they want to do. And I don't think they knew what the fuck they wanted to do , since colors. 

[Almar]

14 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

This is weird trend I see on this forum lately. Fans that claim that things are no longer cannon... just because. Like continuity is hard to follow enough, let's just make it harder on everyone and question everything. Do you people have nothing better to do?

I have idea: I'll claims Sonic 1, Sonic Eraser and Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car are the only cannon games. Everything after 1991 is not canon. Even if game has sequel, this sequel is not canon anyway, so who cares. It's stupid, but you can't disprove my logic. It's consistent in its idiocy.

Overreacting. We didn't see GUN in Unleashed and they are from a polarizing era of Sonic. Them being quietly taken out of the series is less over-the-top than you act like.

44 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

So, they're just like Nintendo and Mario: They don't care about story.

You say that, and yet from all evidence Miyamoto and Co. not only don't insist on holding the Mario series to rules like Two Worlds, but give 2nd Party developers plenty of leeway to handle the characters.

[LongcrierCat]

Yeah, Mario and Luigi and other spin off lines of the Mario series get a lot of leeway, so if anything Mario has been allowed to take more risks than Sonic. That's kind of bothersome that Sega is being the control freak here. 

@Shadowlax Ah, so the common problem among any fiction writers. The willingness to focus a project and finish it even if you have a change of heart down the line and aren't entirely sure of themselves. I can see that, but now that sounds like Sega and Sonic Team need a huge pep talk about going fully out there in ideas, reign in some ideas, cut out the fat, and making a solid story for the fans to follow. I mean, really. I like that they leave some stuff up to interpretation, but does everything in Sonic have to be up for interpretation besides what everyone has agreed is "Sonic-y"? That's like saying that nothing this series does matters because it's all up to interpretation and can change at any minute. 

How do you get any good fan feedback from that that builds up fanbases? It kills the theorizing and speculation because the focus is either too small or... yeah, actually it's too small now and it's not willing to try anything now whereas we could read a huge sprawling story into the Genesis games. 

Seriously, what's going on and do they need a class in storytelling, game design, cohesive vision, etc? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

25 minutes ago, Almar said:

Overreacting. We didn't see GUN in Unleashed and they are from a polarizing era of Sonic. Them being quietly taken out of the series is less over-the-top than you act like.

Fun fact: Just because you don’t see something in a game doesn’t mean it’s not canon. Ironically enough, the “Two Worlds” setting would disprove your claim since GUN are established to be in the Human world, but that’s not saying they don’t exist. (The Two World thing is still stupid and faulty, but I never thought it would actually be useful against faulty logic itself)

By that same logic, we should have assumed Shadow and Knuckles were quietly taken out of the series because we didn’t see them in Unleashed, but even you would find that beyond ridiculous. So, why you would even apply that for GUN is beyond reasonable—unless you’re one of the higher ups in charge of the series to make that concrete, that assumption of yours is outright baseless and nothing short of cherrypicking over things you personally don’t care about.

[LongcrierCat]

To be fair, we haven't seen GUN since 2006 in anything but the Archie comics. 

You'd think Sega would love to remind us what all is in Sonic but they've played it so safe that it's almost safe to assume it's been retconned quietly. Crazier things have happened. And given that Sonic has been going for an extremely kid friendly vibe now that has left all of the hard thinking mature topics of things like corrupt governments out because that was too jarring for the blue hedgehog series, it wouldn't be hard to see why. 

... Even though they'd make a great antagonist force who took Robotnik's military and are instating a Police State later in this comic's story arc, but again, that's political for Sonic and I don't think this fanbase likes that. How long have they wanted the Robotniks to give them ultimate weapons again? 

You can't deny there's a huge case for Sega quietly retconning things starting with characters going up in smoke and the Chaotix just being treated as whole new characters since Heroes. We hadn't seen Bark, Bean, or Fang since the 90s save for the comics until Sonic Mania happened and small references in Sonic Generations that only the Sega West team had encouraged them to throw in. 

Sega of Japan doesn't seem to care for the continuity while a vocal part of the fanbase does. It makes it easier to tell a new comer where the story is going to go next and maybe interest them in the older material but Sega apparently doesn't care about the shelf life of their back catalogue either. 

I mean if we can't even tell what's canon in the games then who are they to tell the people working for them what's going to go into their vision of Sonic the Hedgehog? I mean, if Ian had to ask to use certain characters it makes me wonder what kind of a talk Christian Whitehead and the team had with them to get the Hooligans into Mania. This isn't doom and gloom, this is about serious misdirection and mishandling of the franchise. You can reinvent characters, so many companies do this all the time with Marvel being the well known example. But they're not even interested in that it seems like. 

Also Thunderbolt is a better character than Infinite, koff koff. Forces should have been a straight Archie adaptation with Egg Bosses instead of nostalgia pandering that didn't even please the fanbase. 

But don't get me wrong, if they're doing this the way Disney is cutting out the Star Wars extended universe for the sake of streamlining it, I'd be fine except now it's so much of a blank slate that I find it hard for anyone to get invested. 

[Pengi]

2 hours ago, Almar said:

You say that, and yet from all evidence Miyamoto and Co. not only don't insist on holding the Mario series to rules like Two Worlds, but give 2nd Party developers plenty of leeway to handle the characters.

 

Miyamoto is the reason the recent Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games only have standard Toads etc as NPCs instead of original characters.

[Shadowlax]

Also rumor was, they snuck rosalina's story into Mario Galaxy one, he found out, got pissed and made them reduce that element in 2. 

[Almar]

2 hours ago, LongcrierCat said:

@ShadowlaxYeah, Mario and Luigi and other spin off lines of the Mario series get a lot of leeway, so if anything Mario has been allowed to take more risks than Sonic. That's kind of bothersome that Sega is being the control freak here.

Miyamoto has maintained that the Mario characters are like Western cartoon characters (see Popeye, who Miyamoto himself compared to Mario) who are put in different situations. He's never been tyrannical about things like the 7 Koopalings not being Bowser's children the way Sonic Team apparently is on Cream not fighting. When he's talked about such things, he frames it as what HE sees it as. Not holy writ.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Fun fact: Just because you don’t see something in a game doesn’t mean it’s not canon.

When you combine it with other findings though.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

Ironically enough, the “Two Worlds” setting would disprove your claim since GUN are established to be in the Human world, but that’s not saying they don’t exist. (The Two World thing is still stupid and faulty, but I never thought it would actually be useful against faulty logic itself)

GUN wasn't established in the "Human World." It was established on Earth. They were introduced at a point in the series where Sonic lived on one world (Earth) alongside non-Eggman humans. We are not at that point anymore. Not really the huge stretch you make it out to be to scrap what would be a badly fitting artifact of the Adventure era.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm's Servant said:

By that same logic, we should have assumed Shadow and Knuckles were quietly taken out of the series because we didn’t see them in Unleashed, but even you would find that beyond ridiculous.

Except nothing happened in Unleashed that would make their absence really odd. While a giant monster ripping the planet GUN alledgely lives on apart yet they aren't doing anything about it is really odd.

30 minutes ago, Pengi said:

Miyamoto is the reason the recent Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games only have standard Toads etc as NPCs instead of original characters.

We just got a Mario RPG with beans and playable minions.

[PublicEnemy1]

5 minutes ago, Almar said:

We just got a Mario RPG with beans and playable minions.

1. TBF, it was a remake.
2. They made the Toads and minions generic-looking, which they weren't in the original.

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

1. TBF, it was a remake.
2. They made the Toads and minions generic-looking, which they weren't in the original.

Any "generic" minions in the original were either just ugly sprites or based on old designs...

[Multikaris]

55 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Any "generic" minions in the original were either just ugly sprites or based on old designs...

Which, if old Miyamoto is as lenient as Almar believes he is, they could have been preserved or even turned into new sub-species.

 

Has any media been able to say Koopalings are Bowser’s kids since 2010?

[StaticMania]

22 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Which, if old Miyamoto is as lenient as Almar believes he is, they could have been preserved or even turned into new sub-species.

Not if they're just the actual existing enemies...and all of the Bean Bean version of existing enemies were left pretty much the same design wise.