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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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17 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You know Neutralize doesn't mean kill, it means to disarm to render harmless. 

If you come at me with a knife, and I disarm and hold you down, I have neutralized you. 

Fair enough, I suppose.

Granted, there is a middle area for that detail, but again, it would probably depend on if they referenced again.

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12 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Fair enough, I suppose.

Granted, there is a middle area for that detail, but again, it would probably depend on if they referenced again.

If it comes out that he did kill them i'll take the L

Just seemed weird, and super convenient that the one guy he didn't kill he only kicked like 3 times. Shadow wasn't angry , just on a mission. Who gave him that mission might be another question that might never be answered. 

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I like that Eggman's amnesia isn't really relevant to Sonic's argument.

Sonic argues that Eggman wouldn't deserve death even if he hadn't lost his memory, because he's helped save the world numerous times, and has genuine merits as a person. I love that.

Eggman may be a world-conquering supervillain, but he's still got lines he won't cross, and will help the side of good when the chips are down. Sonic recognizes that and sees Eggman with compassion instead of contempt, even though he personally has been hurt by him before. It just paints Sonic as such a genuinely good guy, and I really like how they worded his arguments in Eggman's defense here.

So far I'm all aboard the IDW train. Ian Flynn continues to impress.

The thing is, Sonic tried to make his amnesia relevant to his argument but Shadow's retort that losing your memory doesn't make you less dangerous was kind of true, but Sonic stuck to his guns anyway. It does speak a lot to Sonic, even if he doesn't really like Eggman himself, but his good-hearted attitude outweighs his dislike for the doctor.

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I think I should take time out to commend Ian for actually writing Sonic in a way that I thoroughly enjoy when it comes to this book. It's no secret that for the longest time my least favorite version of Sonic (that I've personally experienced) was the version of him that was presented in the Archie comics that I read. I thought every negative trait about him was completely overdone and crossed the acceptable boundary I personally had in place for what I figured was a likable depiction of his character. Everytime I think about him, I imagine some underhanded comment made at someone's expense packaged with the excuse that he "makes fun" of everyone and that's why it's okay for him to just be an ass instead of playful. Or I recall his behavior during Geoffery's trial; hooting and hollering with excitement over the scene as the guy poured out his heart over the hardships he faced in life and the regret he had about the way things fell through.

I went into this worried about hearing Ian Flynn was going to be writing the book because I desperately didn't want that version of Sonic to come back. He had gotten a bit better in my eyes when the reboot happened but not by too much. However, he's just completely become exactly what I've always wanted him to be here. He's a sweet guy with an obvious big heart but also manages to be playful and jokey without coming off like an asshole. The big meaty grins he has on his face are adorable, in part thanks to the art, but it always gives me a warm feeling seeing him. I like looking at Sonic and seeing a guy I could pal around with instead of just someone trying his damndest to ovesell his perception of cool.

 

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The thing is, Sonic tried to make his amnesia relevant to his argument but Shadow's retort that losing your memory doesn't make you less dangerous was kind of true, but Sonic stuck to his guns anyway. It does speak a lot to Sonic, even if he doesn't really like Eggman himself, but his good-hearted attitude outweighs his dislike for the doctor.

Yeah. And it's not like Sonic's against killing outright. 

He and Shadow killed the Biolizard. He was fine with Elise snuffing Solaris out of existence. He was perfectly okay with the death of Black Doom and his followers. All three of these were hell-bent on destroying the world and everyone on it, though, in contrast to Eggman, who wants to rule the world instead.

Sonic doesn't have a code against killing, but he is opposed to killing someone who isn't totally irredeemable. And Eggman meets that qualification as far as Sonic's concerned. 

In a way, "Mr. Tinker" feels like a manifestation of all those good qualities Eggman's always had, but divorced from his supervillainy and megalomania. It makes it easier to see the potential for what a guy like Eggman could be if he got his life together.

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33 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I think I should take time out to commend Ian for actually writing Sonic in a way that I thoroughly enjoy when it comes to this book. It's no secret that for the longest time my least favorite version of Sonic (that I've personally experienced) was the version of him that was presented in the Archie comics that I read. I thought every negative trait about him was completely overdone and crossed the acceptable boundary I personally had in place for what I figured was a likable depiction of his character. Everytime I think about him, I imagine some underhanded comment made at someone's expense packaged with the excuse that he "makes fun" of everyone and that's why it's okay for him to just be an ass instead of playful. Or I recall his behavior during Geoffery's trial; hooting and hollering with excitement over the scene as the guy poured out his heart over the hardships he faced in life and the regret he had about the way things fell through.

Just wanted to say that at that time considering the two-faced shit Geoffery pulled prior to his trial and the bastard who he was following, Sonic definitely had the moral high ground there despite Geoffery’s hardships.

Nevermind that Geoffery was guilty of the shit he was tried for.

Not the best example, dude. A better example would be House of Cards.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Just wanted to say that at that time considering the two-faced shit Geoffery pulled prior to his trial and the bastard who he was following, Sonic definitely had the moral high ground there despite Geoffery’s hardships.

Nevermind that Geoffery was guilty of the shit he was tried for.

Not the best example, dude. A better example would be House of Cards.

No. I disagree. I wrote that with the content in mind and I didn't forget it. I submitted it knowing there was a chance someone was going to bring up that Sonic had a reason to be mad at him and that he had the moral high ground to act like a fucking dipshit during the trial. I know that because I've argued against it before. 

I used that example because it IS what comes to mind when I think about how much of a douche he is. For some reason, it pops into my head more often than that infamous scene from House of Cards that I hate far more than it. I hate that scene from House of Cards so much that I have it saved to my computer so I can whip it out on the off-chance it'll get talked about again but I don't for the other one. They're both scenes of him having an incredibly punchable face on display but for entirely different reasons. The one in House of Cards is far more egregious and anger inducing, but despite that, the one that pops into my head first is still the scene at the trial. Probably because it's the one that has the most complication towards it and it fascinates me in just how much it doesn't work despite the fact that his character likely doesn't have much of a reason to be sympathetic towards him. It's not like I don't get the counter argument either, after all, what the skunk did may not have been anywhere near as bad as all the stuff Eggman has done. But at the same time, it's not like I'm saying he shouldn't have felt that way.

The example concerning Geoffery is a detriment to Sonic's character, in my opinion, because of the failure to portray the situation in a way that's actually supportive of Sonic's reaction to him. From a narrative sense the set-up was put forth as an explanation for his actions and the story they laid out before me wasn't being treated as something I, as a reader, was supposed to be seething in hatred at him for. By the end of it I was sympathetic towards him. I felt in my heart of hearts that no matter what Sonic felt towards the guy, his reaction would probably be a lot more serious and straight-faced then what I got.

But after all the bad stuff Geoffery did and tragic explanation leading up to why it all happened, you'd think that'd leave him concentrating on how things got so messed up as well as recognizing that, despite that, he still wouldn't be able to forgive him. It felt like one of those instances that would call for a bit more of a mature reaction from Sonic, as few and as far between as those can get.

And yet his reaction, despite the bad atmosphere and how shitty things are for everyone on both sides (aside from Naugus) he just pumps his fists up and hollars in excitement, "YEAH! TAKE THAT YOU JERK!" like he wasn't even fucking listening or considering what was going on at all. Like I know he didn't have the best relationship with the guy but just a little contemplation about the severity of his situation or something at least a little less douchey might have helped round out things for me.

I like the idea of feeling sympathetic for both sides and it was a situation that called for it. The way the book presented it, by the end of it I felt bad for the guy. If I wasn't supposed to feel that way and was instead supposed to be all excited along with Sonic then why tell me all the bad stuff that happened and present his side of the argument anyway? 

It just felt like a horrible oversimplification of his character. I don't like people who react to things like this like that. 

I know I'm probably the only person who'd ever use a nonconventional example like that but I've always felt strongly about disliking that moment, so I'm sticking to it always. 

EDIT: Good God do I know how to ramble. Jesus Christ.

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38 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

No. I disagree. I wrote that with the content in mind and I didn't forget it. I submitted it knowing there was a chance someone was going to bring up that Sonic had a reason to be mad at him and that he had the moral high ground to act like a fucking dipshit during the trial. I know that because I've argued against it before. 

I used that example because it IS what comes to mind when I think about how much of a douche he is. For some reason, it pops into my head more often than that infamous scene from House of Cards that I hate far more than it. I hate that scene from House of Cards so much that I have it saved to my computer so I can whip it out on the off-chance it'll get talked about again but I don't for the other one. They're both scenes of him having an incredibly punchable face on display but for entirely different reasons. The one in House of Cards is far more egregious and anger inducing, but despite that, the one that pops into my head first is still the scene at the trial. Probably because it's the one that has the most complication towards it and it fascinates me in just how much it doesn't work despite the fact that his character likely doesn't have much of a reason to be sympathetic towards him. It's not like I don't get the counter argument either, after all, what the skunk did may not have been anywhere near as bad as all the stuff Eggman has done. But at the same time, it's not like I'm saying he shouldn't have felt that way.

The example concerning Geoffery is a detriment to Sonic's character, in my opinion, because of the failure to portray the situation in a way that's actually supportive of him. From a narrative sense the set-up was put forth as an explanation for his actions and the story they laid out before me wasn't being treated as something I, as a reader, was supposed to be seething in hatred at him for. By the end of it I was sympathetic towards him. I felt in my heart of hearts that no matter what Sonic felt towards the guy, his reaction would probably be a lot more serious and straight-faced then what I got.

But after all the bad stuff Geoffery did and tragic explanation leading up to why it all happened, you'd think that'd leave him concentrating on how things got so messed up as well as recognizing that, despite that, he still wouldn't be able to forgive him. It felt like one of those instances that would call for a bit more of a mature reaction from Sonic, as few and as far between as those can get.

And yet his reaction, despite the bad atmosphere and how shitty things are for everyone on both sides (aside from Naugus) he just pumps his fists up and hollars in excitement, "YEAH! TAKE THAT YOU JERK!" like he wasn't even fucking listening or considering what was going on at all. Like I know he didn't have the best relationship with the guy but just a little contemplation about the severity of his situation or something at least a little less douchey might have helped round out things for me.

I like the idea of feeling sympathetic for both sides and it was a situation that called for it. The way the book presented it, by the end of it I felt bad for the guy. If I wasn't supposed to feel that way and was instead supposed to be all excited along with Sonic then why tell me all the bad stuff that happened and present his side of the argument anyway? 

It just felt like a horrible oversimplification of his character. I don't like people who react to things like this like that. 

I know I'm probably the only person who'd ever use a nonconventional example like that but I've always felt strongly about disliking that moment, so I'm sticking to it always. 

Problem with that assessment is that it ignores the fact that prior to that point, Geoffery straight up betrayed Sonic by kicking him down in the special stage and closing the exit on him. And Sonic wasn’t the only one upset with Geoffrey. The whole Freedom Fighter crew went after him for the same reason. Nevermind than Antoine unintentionally dealt the harsher low blow by bringing up Hershey who they thought was a potential pawn who suffered though Geoffery’s machinations as well.

Even disregarding the Freedom Fighters, everything Geoffery did at that point was a result of his actions. As much of a jerk that Sonic was, that doesn’t change the fact that Sonic initially placed full trust in him in a mission they were to do together prior to being betrayed and almost stranded in the special stage by Geoffrey’s own intention—like, I’m sorry, but if we were to do something together, and you betray me and leave me off in a way that I could potentially never get back from, I have no reason whatsoever to give any benefit of the doubt or any reason to care about your misfortunes that I wasn’t even involved in. You don’t backstab someone and expect them not to be pissed as fuck about it, much less expect them to sympathize with your plight over the fact that you could have left them to die over it (oky, that’s a stretch, but you get the point here), especially in the way Geoffery did.

And what’s more, Sonic and Geoffery were on good terms until that point, and Geoffery destroyed that trust and good will through that betrayal, however he tried to justify it. Everything Geoffery suffered through that led to what he did had nothing to do with Sonic, who was a third party to it. 

So no, he doesn’t get the moral high ground here. Sonic does. Sonic had every reason not to like Geoffery or care about his plight after he left him for naught in the special stage, having no reason or idea to think Geoffery would even do some shit like that after they’ve been on decent terms. That’s basically like Tails’ unnecessary shitfit in Lost World, only much more harsher and unforgivable. And it was pointed out that Geoffery’s ends didn’t justify the means either.

All in all, had Geoffery not betrayed Sonic in issues prior, then yeah, Sonic would definitely have been more of a huge ass jerk acting the way he did—although I’d still argue that giving Naugus a Chaos Emerald and helping him usurp the kingdom still wouldn’t have done him much favors either. But this isn’t one of those cases as Geoffery brought all of that and more on himself by destroying all the trust and good will that was given to him in the first place.

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3 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Problem with that assessment is that it ignores the fact that prior to that point, Geoffery straight up betrayed Sonic by kicking him down in the special stage and closing the exit on him. And Sonic wasn’t the only one upset with Geoffrey. The whole Freedom Fighter crew went after him for the same reason. Nevermind than Antoine unintentionally dealt the harsher low blow by bringing up Hershey who they thought was a potential pawn who suffered though Geoffery’s machinations as well.

Even disregarding the Freedom Fighters, everything Geoffery did at that point was a result of his actions. As much of a jerk that Sonic was, that doesn’t change the fact that Sonic initially placed full trust in him in a mission they were to do together prior to being betrayed and almost stranded in the special stage by Geoffrey’s own intention—like, I’m sorry, but if we were to do something together, and you betray me and leave me off in a way that I could potentially never get back from, I have no reason whatsoever to give any benefit of the doubt or any reason to care about your misfortunes that I wasn’t even involved in. You don’t backstab someone and expect them not to be pissed as fuck about it, much less expect them to sympathize with your plight over the fact that you could have left them to die over it (oky, that’s a stretch, but you get the point here), especially in the way Geoffery did.

And what’s more, Sonic and Geoffery were on good terms until that point, and Geoffery destroyed that trust and good will through that betrayal, however he tried to justify it. Everything Geoffery suffered through that led to what he did had nothing to do with Sonic, who was a third party to it. 

So no, he doesn’t get the moral high ground here. Sonic does. Sonic had every reason not to like Geoffery or care about his plight after he left him for naught in the special stage, having no reason or idea to think Geoffery would even do some shit like that after they’ve been on decent terms. That’s basically like Tails’ unnecessary shitfit in Lost World, only much more harsher and unforgivable. And it was pointed out that Geoffery’s ends didn’t justify the means either.

All in all, had Geoffery not betrayed Sonic in issues prior, then yeah, Sonic would definitely have been a huge ass jerk. But this isn’t one of those cases as Geoffery brought all of that and more on himself.

No, I literally did not ignore all of that.  I brought up in the response a couple of times that I wasn't calling for Sonic to forgive him, or be on his side, or to forget all the bad stuff he did. The point in what I was talking about was his conduct. Just his conduct.

I can't for the life of me buy that any version of Sonic would be presented with the information he was and react to it like that. I understand that this is an incredibly odd and unconventional opinion to have but I honestly only believe it's polarizing because, like with Eggman here, the person we're talking about is technically a villain.

It's incredibly easy to point at an example like House of Cards because Tails is not only a hero character but also Sonic's supposed best friend. However, I'm pointing out his behavior regarding Geoffrey because I don't believe in saying that because Sonic's reaction at the trial is technically justifiable doesn't mean it's the way I feel he would have reacted. 

I never tried to argue that Geoffrey had the moral high ground so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about there. I never tried to argue that Sonic didn't have a reason to not like Geoffrey. And I wasn't saying that Geoffrey was justified in his actions either. I feel as though you think my issue is with something a bit different from what I'm talking about so I'll quote my explanation in the other response and clarify it a bit more.

3 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

From a narrative sense the set-up was put forth as an explanation for his actions and the story they laid out before me wasn't being treated as something I, as a reader, was supposed to be seething in hatred at him for. By the end of it I was sympathetic towards him. I felt in my heart of hearts that no matter what Sonic felt towards the guy, his reaction would probably be a lot more serious and straight-faced then what I got.

But after all the bad stuff Geoffery did and tragic explanation leading up to why it all happened, you'd think that'd leave him concentrating on how things got so messed up as well as recognizing that, despite that, he still wouldn't be able to forgive him. It felt like one of those instances that would call for a bit more of a mature reaction from Sonic, as few and as far between as those can get.

And yet his reaction, despite the bad atmosphere and how shitty things are for everyone on both sides (aside from Naugus) he just pumps his fists up and hollars in excitement, "YEAH! TAKE THAT YOU JERK!" like he wasn't even fucking listening or considering what was going on at all. Like I know he didn't have the best relationship with the guy but just a little contemplation about the severity of his situation or something at least a little less douchey might have helped round out things for me.

Okay, so what I'm saying here is that the book did a terrible job of supporting Sonic's behavior with the way it presented Geoffrey's case. In other words, the tone was off. For all intents and purposes, Sonic is totally justified in wanting him to go down for what he did. However, that isn't a justification for his behavior at the trial at all.

The bolded part outlines how I desired for him to actually react in that situation. Instead of pumping your fists and hollering in excitement after I, the reader, was fed a sympathy ridden story about how someone's life was thrown out of whack and led them down a dark path, how about INSTEAD you have it CONTINUE to be played up as the tragedy it is by having Sonic's reaction reinforce that. NOT by having Sonic forgive him (because why would he?) but by having him contemplate what happened. I'm imaging the verdict being passed and Sonic's reaction being a straight-faced, eyes half open, no-nonsense, serious expression. He's silent and staring at Geoffrey like he's drilling a hole into the guy's head, trying to pry an answer that he'll never get out of him mentally and trying to figure out how things got so bent out of shape. 

I wanted Sonic to actually acknowledge both of the situations he was being presented with and take it seriously. Have the fact that the guy could be seen as sympathetic but ALSO couldn't be forgiven as something that's played up and expressed through Sonic's reaction.

But instead he just shouts in excitement and I'm left to take that reaction and juxtapose it with all the sad shit the book just told me before and be okay with it. It felt SO fucking weird when I read it at the time and it still does. I don't understand why that was the go-to oversimplified reaction he went with for something as serious as that. It should have been more complicated then that. You said yourself that Geoffry wasn't even acting antagonistic towards him before the supposed betrayal. You'd think after having it happen so suddenly and then getting a smattering of backstory it would lead to a more complicated reaction?

I've always hated it. It just came off like a lazy, douchey, dude-bro, simple-minded reaction from a version of Sonic that I didn't like. 

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12 hours ago, SBR2 said:

The fact he uses the word "Subordinate" to describe Rouge's relationship with Shadow bothers me. 

So I wasn't the only one who found the language weird then, its kinda creepy tbh. 

12 hours ago, SBR2 said:

There's no Hierarchy in play. Team Dark has never been played that way in any appearance and the fact Dash acts like Rouge and Omega are Shadow's servants honestly makes me believe he really doesn't know what he's talking about. 

Them being servants is ...weird. Like if you want to make the argument that more often than not the two serve shadow in the sense of " almost everything they do seemed shadow focused " yeah sure. If you want to make the argument that maybe Omega and rouge don't often get to do anything especially now, sure. The camera even in this past issue is often on shadow and its kinda clear who they want you to pay attention to. 

They aren't however his servants. That's weird. Even with those noted issues above, Rouge will call shadow out his shit, vice versa and Omega does whatever the hell he wants... they all kind of do. Shadow and Rouge are more willing to listen to each other. But for the most part they are just three people who mutually decided to hang out and do shit. And I would usually say " were hired by gun " but I don't know where gun is. So shrugs

12 hours ago, SBR2 said:

And if there was a Hierarchy than Shadow and Omega would work for Rouge since she started Team Dark in the first place. 

Eh, Apparently folks at Sega are calling Team Dark, Team Shadow now so I don't know about that. As much as I think the teams operate better on equal leadership , i'm also not gonna pretend sega hasn't positioned characters to be the heads of those teams for popularity reasons.

 

15 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

she's actually not his Tails. 

This is a particularly weird comparison because narratively they don't serve the same function. While i'm not say tails is outright...useless to sonic. Tails is a little brother figure , tails and sonic's relationship while sonic can occasionally depend on him for emotion support is more focused on tails looking up to him if anything something he can aspire to be like. I don't think sonic wasn't going to be sonic if tails didn't exist ( though that would be an interesting what if story ) . Tails's usefulness over the years in my opinion has come more from his intelligence his smarts have gotten sonic out of a jam time and again. Which, at least in the adventure days ( woo forces tails is bad ) into learning independence and to do for ones self

To compare this to rouge is strange. Rouge I would argue on a practical level, does not have any of tail's usefulness to shadow. Shadow can effectively do stealth as well as she can, arguably better. He can teleport, he's literally all black, he's bullet proof and can move at super high speeds, and with flying he can teleport and sort of boost fly so he doesn't really need her help in that regard. He's pretty smart and while not tails level has some form of mechanical understanding. What she does for him is attempt to keep him grounded. While tails' usefulness over the years is more practical her's is a bit more emotional or psychological at least. She attempts at least to keep him grounded. 

Do I think that's the best idea for story telling? To be honest no, I think rouge could be more interesting if she didn't have to babysit or pat shadow on the back and tell hims shits fine. He's a big boy he can figure it out. I also think shadow having to possibly deal with emotional situations by himself ( and possibly mining new powers and more lore about himself through dealing with such things ) would be more interesting story telling wise. I also think trying to keep shadow grounded is a futile endeavor because... he's immortal and how are you gonna keep someone grounded who doesn't even view time in the same way we do. 

All that said, Dash Speed's comparison doesn't make sense, because Rouge doesn't even serve the same function story telling and practicality wise for shadow as tails does for sonic. We aren't even going to get into the possible romantic aspect of the entire thing. 

15 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

And even then Tails isn't Sonic's subordinate. He's his friend.

Friends are subordinates now. 

You are now my friend

Bring me a pizza

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4 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Yeah. And it's not like Sonic's against killing outright. 

He and Shadow killed the Biolizard. He was fine with Elise snuffing Solaris out of existence. He was perfectly okay with the death of Black Doom and his followers. All three of these were hell-bent on destroying the world and everyone on it, though, in contrast to Eggman, who wants to rule the world instead.

Sonic doesn't have a code against killing, but he is opposed to killing someone who isn't totally irredeemable. And Eggman meets that qualification as far as Sonic's concerned. 

In a way, "Mr. Tinker" feels like a manifestation of all those good qualities Eggman's always had, but divorced from his supervillainy and megalomania. It makes it easier to see the potential for what a guy like Eggman could be if he got his life together.

I would like to make a proposal based on this idea. I think sonic does have an issue with killing, because everything you just mentioned he's kind of disconnected to and doesn't have to think about. Not say giant monsters can't have feelings, but the ones that sonic fights are often unfeeling or un caring things that fail to have human...or mobian...or... what the shit do you even call sonic's people anymore, they don't often have the ability to connect to sonic in some way. Its weird distant. Biolizard was not only shadow's thing it was a big monster that mean whale noises that wanted to body slam the planet. Black doom, it was shadow's thing and for the most alien monsters that could not communicate. Solaris, another giant unfeeling monster thing that he can just mentally put away as another thing. 

I think this issue with eggman plays back to when eggman went nuts in archie and sonic felt sorry for him. Because usually when he fights eggman, its him fighting what is essentially a robot. Yeah there is often a human inside, but he can for the most part mentally put that away as a robot .  Eggman always comes back, he assumes that eggman has some form of failsafe and just goes about his business.  

But sonic dealing with eggman, the dude, is a different deal. Because eggman the person has emotions and feelings, often sociopathic , but he does have those. And that I feel for sonic is a much harder thing to strike down than a robot or a space horror. 

I legit think, one of the things the eclipse thing was building to was other characters not actually wanting shadow to kill eclipse. I think sonic wouldn't want to kill eclipse, because he would see eclipse care for things, and he would go " oh shit this is a person now , let me try to talk to it " .

This is opposed to shadow, who I mentioned above, views time differently and probably mortality itself. Not only is shadow some immortal time stopping super being , his first memory is the person he loved getting murdered. Suffice it to say " Life sucks and people die " might be apart shadow's mantra at this point. Making it much easier for him to go " i'll kill you to make the world or whatever safer, it happens ". 

I think this is for me one of the issues I have with this comic, among many. I feel as though this a in alot of respects has been handled more elegantly and better in other stories and in games, and I feel like it could be handled more elegantly in the future. I don't think the arguments made are good and have the full effect they should have. I feel like sonic for very good reason is coming from an emotional and feeling place than shadow and I could easily see a scenario where sonic makes mistakes in his arguments because he's feeling a way and it doesn't communicate the way he wants to. 

Anyway, weird thoughts

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7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I feel a problem some of you are having is that you guys have a specific way you guys think the characters should act in your head, so when they act in contrary to that, you feel a sense of betrayal and disconnect "Sonic/Shadow/etc. would NEVER act this way" is a common sentiment in these threads I noticed. Thing is, there are have been so many people who have written for the series in it's 20+ year run, it's kind of unrealistic to expect everything in your head to line up with whoever is writing at the time.

Not that you can't be upset when the writing fails to meet your expectations, by all means, everyone has different feelings. But I think it's important to be a bit more flexible and open-minded when it comes to characterization and writing in this series because, for better or worse, every writer that's worked on it has their own interpretation of the series and what it should be just like we do. It's a 20+ year series, there's no way every writer is going to be on the same page when it comes to the writing.

The writers probably look at a basic character description of the cast, and just go from there. 

That's fair. And admittedly, personal bias could be coloring my positive perceptions of this as well.

For over a decade now, I've harped on and complained about those "Shadow kills Eggman" endings in ShTH because "Hey, Eggman's not that bad; he's even done outright heroic things, so he doesn't really deserve to die."

So to see an official Sonic product basically make that exact same argument in Eggman's defense (and defending him from Shadow, no less) does kinda make me feel vindicated after all this time.

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27 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

That's fair. And admittedly, personal bias could be coloring my positive perceptions of this as well.

For over a decade now, I've harped on and complained about those "Shadow kills Eggman" endings in ShTH because "Hey, Eggman's not that bad; he's even done outright heroic things, so he doesn't really deserve to die."

So to see an official Sonic product basically make that exact same argument in Eggman's defense (and defending him from Shadow, no less) does kinda make me feel vindicated after all this time.

See in that instance, it's important to understand the context of the situations.

In Shadow the Hedgehog, Shadow's just being a dick more or less. You're not really supposed to think "Yea, Eggman deserves to die" but see it as one of the many possibilities of the paths Shadow could take.

Here, Shadow actually has justifiable reasons for wanting to take care of Eggman now. He even mentions how he's made other people suffer, including Sonic, whom he doesn't really particularly like and is the main one standing in his way right now. Unlike in his game, the comic acknowledges how despite how morally questionable Shadow's intent was, he's not completely wrong, something Sonic acknowledges.

 

But to go back to the main point, yea. Personal biases do influence things like this. Its why you have Shadowlax being upset at how Shadow was portrayed in this issue because it's "wrong" while I think it's one of the best depictions of Shadow in a while. That's just how opinions work.

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Same, I really liked how everyone is written in this issue, plus the twists, I'm sure more answers are coming, that's what they are teasing.

Btw, the mods made a post to discuss issue 6 in the official facebook squad and people love it there as well.

I'm just glad there is a piece of Sonic media with a story and characters that are well written and that people are positive about, it's a nice change from the games' lackuster storylines. Looking forward to the Q&A today!

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Them being servants is ...weird. Like if you want to make the argument that more often than not the two serve shadow in the sense of " almost everything they do seemed shadow focused " yeah sure. If you want to make the argument that maybe Omega and rouge don't often get to do anything especially now, sure. The camera even in this past issue is often on shadow and its kinda clear who they want you to pay attention to. 

You pretty summed up well my problem with how focus normally occurs with Team Dark. More than often when they're present, Shadow is the main focus while Rouge and Omega are relagated to playing second banana to him.

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I checked Facebook and reddit and other forums again, the receptions are great, and it's great here too you know, only a few didn't have Shadow align with their version of him.

I can't wait for next issue.

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4 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Not that you can't be upset when the writing fails to meet your expectations, by all means, everyone has different feelings. But I think it's important to be a bit more flexible and open-minded when it comes to characterization and writing in this series because, for better or worse, every writer that's worked on it has their own interpretation of the series and what it should be just like we do. It's a 20+ year series, there's no way every writer is going to be on the same page when it comes to the writing.

The writers probably look at a basic character description of the cast, and just go from there. 

I think what you said was fair. I would like to say something however, the reason this issue disappointing me so much is because its Ian, I expect more from him I suppose. And outside of shadow, lets just forget shadow and my issues. An issue who's story felt kinda pointless and who's fight was just lack luster. This issue could have been about another character and under this structure it would just be disappointing. This is combination with shadow's characterization I think is what gets me. I expect Ian to do better, and I just don't feel like he did. 

Also bonus disappointment: I'm probably not going to get to see the character I like do cool shit for like a year+  now so this disappointing version of the character is what i'm stuck with now. So that also sucks. 

Also for the writer thing, depends on the gig. While sonic isn't as lore heavy as... any Marvel or DC comic you can think of at the top of your head. There rules and shit, and a world and something sega is trying to build right now and characterizations sega wants, so I would imagine any writer doing more than translation for a gig like this probably has to like at least look up some stuff. 

Translating things like lost world probably requires less because the story structure is already kinda set and all you are doing is interpreting something and you just need personalities and tone. And sonic boom can do .. could have done rather whatever it wanted because its world was wholly different. 

That said characters do change, it happens. They don't belong to me, i've come to terms with that a long time ago. 

Another note. I don't think the " you need to be more open " applies to me much? I feel like I was more charitable to sonic boom as a concept than most. Heck my issues with knuckles and shadows weren't that they weird is that they were too similar to their previous versions in characterizations. I think i'm just stickler for consistency and I felt like this shadow was... kinda backwards. But i'm sure Ian will write another story about shadow and it will be fine. Ian's interpretations do not frighten me as much as sega's plans for the future do.  

 

3 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

And he's not just wrong, either.

Shadow reevaluates his position. He's willing to question his judgments and change his mind. If anything, showing Shadow as flawed - but still capable of self-reflection and change - is a marked improvement. It makes him a more dynamic character with more range.

But how does this make him more dynamic than before? My complain with issue among... alot of them in this case is that I feel like his character regressed to retread ground we have already gone through. Like if this was a flash back to that point, to use the example I used before sonic 06 where he actually made a version of the " I'm going to do the right thing " choice I feel like that would have been fine because the character regressing would be because we literally went back in time. 

Shadow was already a dynamic character capable of this, we have seen this. The story seems like a weird regression to me and I don't really feel like it does a good job of explaining what shadow is as a character. 

Quote

Sonic, Shadow, and Eggman are on top of their game in this comic right now. And I'm really looking forward to what Ian does with them and the others next.

I disagree, and i'm actually very worried about shadow. But we will see. Though my worry about shadow is less about Ian and more about Sonic team and Sega but that's a whole other discussion. 

2 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

You pretty summed up well my problem with how focus normally occurs with Team Dark. More than often when they're present, Shadow is the main focus while Rouge and Omega are relagated to playing second banana to him.

He's popular. Usually when folks stick characters on team for example, the red hood from DC comics its because the writers can't quite see him being by himself and maybe they can't think the do too much with the character so they give him a team to bounce off of. Not only is shadow popular enough to just be doing stuff by himself, the stories are often written like it except for a couple scenes where the other two have to be involved. 

The team dynamic in sonic is this forced thing that doesn't really need to exist outside of the games that require it. And Hopefully this comic is allowed to do away with some of that. Team chaotix is fine, but not everyone needs to hang out I kinda wish they would have out with other folks more. 

 

27 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

I checked Facebook and reddit and other forums again, the receptions are great, and it's great here too you know, only a few didn't have Shadow align with their version of him.

I can't wait for next issue.

Not for nothing but

1) I don't think you need to like... go to other websites to confirm whether people like or not to solidify your opinion. If you like it you like it, you don't you don't. That's ok. Its nice to get perspective but this seems more like a " well more people like it so there " which brings me to point 2

2)I checked... most people seem kinda meh or neutral and/or focusing on the twist at the end.

Also checking reddit reminds me why I often don't check reddit, especially sonic reddit because the shitty part of reddit bleeds in super hard into gaming reddits. 

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Reading through the continued conversation and the focus on Shadow has perhaps helped me see my problems with this issue in a better light. As I've said before, my primary problem is that this issue could have been left out of the story and nothing would have changed. At the end of issue 5 Sonic is willing to leave "Mr. Tinker" alone with some reservations, and at the end of issue 6 is willing to leave "Mr. Tinker" alone with some reservations. Nothing changed and Shadow's introduction did not change anything either. To me, you could have cut out every page of the Shadow story and had just shown what "Mr. Tinker" meant by Eggman Land followed by the reveal and have lost nothing. Sure the argument that this was Shadow and Rouge's introduction comes into play, but that doesn't address my primary complain.

Arguably, I feel that there are two ways my primary complaint could have been addressed. One; tell the story from Shadow's POV so that way there is a change that moves the story forward, though that is impractical because this is supposed to be Sonic's story and he can only get Shadow's POV from discussion. So that brings me to Two; introduce Shadow and the conflict before Sonic has made up his mind about the situation. In that way Sonic and Shadow are fighting with the question of is what Sonic is fighting for even real. He seeks that answer and needs to triumph over Shadow to find it. From there issue 5 would have ended with Sonic unsure of what he is dealing with with "Mr. Tinker" and issue 6 would have ended where we started it instead. Not a perfect solution but I think it would have solved my problem with this issue.

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19 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I think what you said was fair. I would like to say something however, the reason this issue disappointing me so much is because its Ian, I expect more from him I suppose. And outside of shadow, lets just forget shadow and my issues. An issue who's story felt kinda pointless and who's fight was just lack luster. This issue could have been about another character and under this structure it would just be disappointing. This is combination with shadow's characterization I think is what gets me. I expect Ian to do better, and I just don't feel like he did. 

Also bonus disappointment: I'm probably not going to get to see the character I like do cool shit for like a year+  now so this disappointing version of the character is what i'm stuck with now. So that also sucks. 

Also for the writer thing, depends on the gig. While sonic isn't as lore heavy as... any Marvel or DC comic you can think of at the top of your head. There rules and shit, and a world and something sega is trying to build right now and characterizations sega wants, so I would imagine any writer doing more than translation for a gig like this probably has to like at least look up some stuff. 

Translating things like lost world probably requires less because the story structure is already kinda set and all you are doing is interpreting something and you just need personalities and tone. And sonic boom can do .. could have done rather whatever it wanted because its world was wholly different. 

That said characters do change, it happens. They don't belong to me, i've come to terms with that a long time ago. 

Another note. I don't think the " you need to be more open " applies to me much? I feel like I was more charitable to sonic boom as a concept than most. Heck my issues with knuckles and shadows weren't that they weird is that they were too similar to their previous versions in characterizations. I think i'm just stickler for consistency and I felt like this shadow was... kinda backwards. But i'm sure Ian will write another story about shadow and it will be fine. Ian's interpretations do not frighten me as much as sega's plans for the future do.  

Because the whole point of the issue is about Sonic & Shadow's clashing ideals, that's the story, with the fight serving as a backdrop to that. I literally explained that not too long ago. I don't want to get into another debate about this if we're not going to reach an actual conclusion, so I'll say this again; there is nothing wrong with how Shadow was portrayed in this issue, it is not a regression of the character but merely putting the character in a different scenario than the norm. 

If you don't like that, then hey, that's on you. I personally liked it and think it was a great exploration of how morally questionable Shadow can be, because I feel like it's an aspect of him that gets more told than shown and how his personality actually does clash with the more morally upright main characters. And it never contradicts any prior characterization either like you claim it does. 

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5 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Because the whole point of the issue is about Sonic & Shadow's clashing ideals, that's the story, with the fight serving as a backdrop to that. I literally explained that not too long ago. I don't want to get into another debate about this if we're not going to reach an actual conclusion, so I'll say this again; there is nothing wrong with how Shadow was portrayed in this issue, it is not a regression of the character but merely putting the character in a different scenario than the norm. 

 

Quote

If you don't like that, then hey, that's on you. I personally liked it and think it was a great exploration of how morally questionable Shadow can be, because I feel like it's an aspect of him that gets more told than shown and how his personality actually does clash with the more morally upright main characters. And it never contradicts any prior characterization either like you claim it does. 

I shall now also use bold text

I don't think any of that was well executed, good or even necessary  and most of the book is skipable besides the final page. Even when removing my issues with shadow, its a poorly told story with a bad fight that barely even is a fight. And it seems as though shadow went backwards. And now this is the shadow I have to deal with until I get a new shadow story, and i'm not fond of that. 

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2 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Reading through the continued conversation and the focus on Shadow has perhaps helped me see my problems with this issue in a better light. As I've said before, my primary problem is that this issue could have been left out of the story and nothing would have changed. At the end of issue 5 Sonic is willing to leave "Mr. Tinker" alone with some reservations, and at the end of issue 6 is willing to leave "Mr. Tinker" alone with some reservations. Nothing changed and Shadow's introduction did not change anything either. To me, you could have cut out every page of the Shadow story and had just shown what "Mr. Tinker" meant by Eggman Land followed by the reveal and have lost nothing. Sure the argument that this was Shadow and Rouge's introduction comes into play, but that doesn't address my primary complain.

Arguably, I feel that there are two ways my primary complaint could have been addressed. One; tell the story from Shadow's POV so that way there is a change that moves the story forward, though that is impractical because this is supposed to be Sonic's story and he can only get Shadow's POV from discussion. So that brings me to Two; introduce Shadow and the conflict before Sonic has made up his mind about the situation. In that way Sonic and Shadow are fighting with the question of is what Sonic is fighting for even real. He seeks that answer and needs to triumph over Shadow to find it. From there issue 5 would have ended with Sonic unsure of what he is dealing with with "Mr. Tinker" and issue 6 would have ended where we started it instead. Not a perfect solution but I think it would have solved my problem with this issue.

Shadow's introduction was to challenge Sonic's moral standpoint on letting Eggman go at the end off issue 5, that's the story. The Eggman mystery had more or less been "resolved" with the "Eggmanland" bit being there to add some ambiguity and to justify Shadow's inclusion. The entirety of issue 6 is Sonic having to prove his moral standing to Shadow by justifying that there's no reason to hurt Eggman in his current when he isn't a danger and that he could be a potential ally despite his past atrocities.

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