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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

In Sonic's own words, "What were you thinking, Tails? You could've been killed!"

Sonic was wrong, what else is new. Because eggman was certainly fine. Also, tails has been through more stuff than a rogue robot getting a hit on him. 

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

So yeah, stakes were pretty high there. And sure, it's beneficial for him to help, but the guy's not such a spineless coward that he's unwilling to put himself on the line when it counts.

I think he's totally a spineless coward, this benifted him and knew it wouldn't kill him. You don't think he knows his robots more than anyone else. 

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

Eggman's actually a very brave character; He's constantly taking on powerful enemies - good or bad - himself. It doesn't mean he's a hero, of course not. Eggman is a bad person, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to him. That's boring and unsatisfying. Eggman having some positive merits while still being unambiguously villainous and committed to his own selfish ideals is far more interesting than him being a flat, static villain with absolutely no sense of morality whatsoever. 

I don't think eggman is brave , I think eggman is extremely egotistical. I feel like eggman's cowardice is quite clear, he's just willing to do crazy world takings schemes and fight foes he's lost against because he's so much of an egotistical ( or Egg-otsitical) narcissist that he feels like he's right he's owed this and all will come to pass because he's smarter. You are talking about a guy who builds robots with his face on it and a death star with his face on it. 

As for , him just being a villain and that's boring. I never said he wasn't complicated , but being complicated don't make you not a bad guy. It just makes you an entertaining bad guy. 

Though there is a pretty common argument by some folks that they don't like villians who try and redeem themselves and think its a cop out. I don't believe that personally but I just want to put that out there that there are people who like villains being villians

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

And again, Sonic 2 8-bit literally gives Eggman no advantage. Letting Sonic slip and fall into the lava would have been the most pragmatic choice there, but he saved him anyway. I think that's worth mentioning.

I could make the argument that he wanted to torture and kill him as indicated by the last game and the last game's prototype script. That said, forces is bad, so I'll give you this one. 

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On 6/28/2018 at 6:52 PM, Shadowlax said:

You know Neutralize doesn't mean kill, it means to disarm to render harmless. 

If you come at me with a knife, and I disarm and hold you down, I have neutralized you. 

 

Okay your headcannon was getting funny at first now it's sad. Shadow killed Infinite's crew and it was pretty much what set Infinite off along with being bested embarressingly since Shadow usually denied him death like his comrades because Shadow viewed him weakling and stained Infinite's honor.

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12 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Just because something is made for children, it doesn’t mean it can’t be more complex than Dora The Explorer.

And what you’re saying is that fans are wrong to want more out of Sonic that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows is very insulting to those who got into the franchise because of those elements.

Gotta love when people put words into my mouth and then pretend that they are right.

Please show a single post where I ask for that to happen. I dare you to do so or else, simply accept that you don't have much of an argument.

On the other hand, I think this thread has more than enough examples of people who see the franchise taking a wrong turn for a couple titles and think that the franchise is going to go full dark/edge or who for god know why, are incapable of realizing that the franchise goes more by Saturday Morning cartoon logic that excuses the lack of real life-like consequences in favor of keeping things fun, and insist that the writers must be wrong or not understand the franchis because they choose to not follow them.

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10 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's usually because Shadow is by far the most popular and well known of the three 

And the main lead of SA2 along with Sonic with his own story and the lore about him. Rouge has bo background story and she's sides with Shadow by having ties to Shadow's main source of conflict against humanity. Omega literally shows up in heroes as a new character created by Eggman. Shadow has richer lore, more flexibility with the main lead, more powers and skills, a darker theme and more mature elements and finallly he stands out as the few characters that Sonic doesn't joke more around or makes light off.

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Well, I think either way is a fair reading. Personally I can't see Shadow killing some random dudes Eggman hired unless he had a very good reason, and we weren't really given any reason to think that, so...*shrug*

Shadow isn't a guy who doesn't care what or who he does to someone to achieve goals, him killing on a whim is why his a good rival to Sonic as a foil. He abandons ethics for efficiency and progress.

1 hour ago, Skull Leader said:

I blame Sonic Team for that change they made in the early 2000's that spawned fans who do not get this and worse, try to meassure the Sonic franchise - all of it - with the same stick as other franchises.

Then there is the issue a certain Shadow fan (the one who said Rouge was Shadow's Tails, lol) does not seem to get of how this conflict over taking down Eggman/Mr. Tinker being the right thing to do or not serves to introduce Shadow into the book as the character that is going to clash with Sonic's morals because instead of that, he/she was more focused on having the narrative suck up to Shadow and prove him right because he's so popular, a "big deal" and anything that doesn't portray him as a badass killing machine is a disservice to this one SUPPORT character.

At least be thankful Shadow is being given a legit cause to clash with Sonic instead of being handled like in Boom where he looks down on Sonic because of having friends and is just a petty bully with no redeeming qualities that gets triggered with ease.

Shadow clashes with Sonic because it's a cool rival moment and makes kids geek out. Shadow clashes with Sonic for no reason in the games because of this, Shadow in Boom is already a Vegeta clone, the Sonic - Goku similarites just add to the appeal.

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23 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

Gotta love when people put words into my mouth and then pretend that they are right.

Please show a single post where I ask for that to happen. I dare you to do so or else, simply accept that you don't have much of an argument.

On the other hand, I think this thread has more than enough examples of people who see the franchise taking a wrong turn for a couple titles and think that the franchise is going to go full dark/edge or who for god know why, are incapable of realizing that the franchise goes more by Saturday Morning cartoon logic that excuses the lack of real life-like consequences in favor of keeping things fun, and insist that the writers must be wrong or not understand the franchis because they choose to not follow them.

You wanna know why I used Dora the Explorer in response. Because people like you keep going to that extreme of full dark/edge.

Just because fans want something more serious does not mean we want the franchise to take place in a Frank Miller elseworld comic. We just want to take it seriously and that’s hard to do with crap like Baldy McNosehair.

In a previous post on this page you blamed Sega for making a change that attracted people who got hooked because of the Adventure games and in turn Sonic overall. To me it gives the implication that we’re wrong to enjoy those games and to want something more complex than “Rescue the princess again” is some kind of federal offense.

I have no problem with the people who enjoy the classic era stuff but you’re not making it easy when you keep exaggerating what other fans want when it comes to tone and plot. 

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8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's cartoons for children, dude. If you can't get behind the fundamental nature of the series then Sonic just isn't the kind of series that you're into.

Thank you! God it feels like too many people take this goofy ass franchise way too seriously. 

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1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

He wasn't all that different from any iteration of Sonic to me who grins and wisecracks all the time, plus the cheekyness. But here he faced someone who was virtually equal to him in every way and said to be stronger in raw combat, but Sonic was too calm and self assured here, like fighting Shadow is as carefree as fighting Knuckles or Metal here, making his fight seem like he was a older brother treating the annoying little like a rough playmate. Shadow here was also too serious and tense in exchanging blows with Sonic, he's usually the calm and and sometimes snarky one when they fight while Sonic basically stays on guard.

There isn't too much more to say on this other than that I disagree. I've exhausted explaining and re-explaining why I like this version of Sonic and don't like the other one.

Sonic being certain of his position, on it's own, doesn't reflect badly on Shadow's character. They're two different people with two different clashing ideologies. I also don't agree that he was "calm". Sonic made quite a few worried facial expressions and was pretty frantic when he was trying to convince the guy at first. When he got in a good enough argument and started to convince Shadow, that's when he started to look a bit more on top of things. Though, it went away when Shadow did the Chaos Control thing. Not only that but Sonic himself is still worrying about the conflict. They straight up told us that he's still thinking about it in the back of his mind at the very end. 

Someone on here took that to mean that the book was treating us as though we didn't already know that but it was actually there to let us know that Sonic is still conflicted about it himself. This isn't being treated like a black and white scenario and I appreciate that a lot.

I don't know if I necessarily agree that he's always gotta be calm when he fights Sonic. I feel it's fair having an open mind when it comes to situations he considers more urgent than others.

 

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic was wrong, what else is new. Because eggman was certainly fine. Also, tails has been through more stuff than a rogue robot getting a hit on him. 

Eggman was fine because it missed him too. He carried his momentum enough that got them out of the way. That isn't even something that's up for debate. You can clearly see it happen. 

Tails straight up thanked Eggman for the save, so Tails acknowledged that he was in danger. Eggman jumped into action to save him, so Eggman acknowledged he was in danger. Sonic said he could have been killed so Sonic acknowledged he was in danger. The implication was definitely that he could have been killed there.

I also don't have a problem buying that a close range, bludgeoning from a robot crab claw to the back of the skull, if it's struck hard enough, would be able to burst Tails's head wide open. I think that's fairly easy for me to buy. 

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4 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Thank you! God it feels like too many people take this goofy ass franchise way too seriously. 

People are free to enjoy Sonic however they please. How does it affect you that some are more invested in certain aspects of the franchise.

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When did Sonic the Hedgehog start to become The Walking Dead? 

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

If the ghost of maria spawned from the ether and was strait up like " Yo shadow I was actually an evil entity that sent you out into the world to do destruction and you havent been doing it so , i'm gonna do it" and she was a boss fight. 

You know, you say that as a joke, but that actually kinda sounds like an interesting/fun concept for something to do.

49 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

. I like that eggman is a ruthless caniving jerk who who will lie to you and then use your robotized sister as a means to keep you in check.Old canon but remember he did do that.

A humorous little detail with that reveal was that Eggman has his calculating grin going on as usual while establishing his hold on the Pronghorn Sisters, but still openly admits that he had no idea what the heck was going on Cassia anyway. And so matter-of-factly, too. 

49 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

4,3, 5,1,2, 6

Dang. You really liked four that much?

You disliked 2 that much?

23 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow clashes with Sonic because it's a cool rival moment and makes kids geek out. Shadow clashes with Sonic for no reason in the games because of this, Shadow in Boom is already a Vegeta clone, the Sonic - Goku similarites just add to the appeal.

Essentially.

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Whenever the subject of tone is brought up, people always jump to extreme examples on both sides to support their arguement. It's always Dora the Explorer vs. Edgelord.

I don't get why no one suggests something that everyone can enjoy. Like Pixar. I like Pixar. 

Marvel's a good example to use too. I liked that Infinity War. There were tons of children and adults enjoying that one.

I just like examples of things that entire familys can enjoy rather than just one demographic. Feels like Sonic would be right at home there. 

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26 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Whenever the subject of tone is brought up, people always jump to extreme examples on both sides to support their arguement. It's always Dora the Explorer vs. Edgelord.

I don't get why no one suggests something that everyone can enjoy. Like Pixar. I like Pixar. 

Marvel's a good example to use too. I liked that Infinity War. There were tons of children and adults enjoying that one.

I just like examples of things that entire familys can enjoy rather than just one demographic. Feels like Sonic would be right at home there.

All I ask for is for Sonic to be engaging enough for me to care, also for the other characters to get off their asses and take action. And so far the comics (both Archie and IDW) has delivered on that.

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1 hour ago, knuckles20 said:

All I ask for is for Sonic to be engaging enough for me to care. And so far the comics (both Archie and IDW) has delivered on that.

Well, that I agree with. It's nice to care about what's happening. 

I just kind of wish talks about the tone considered the middle-ground a bit more than they seem too. It feels so obvious yet it gets ignored so often.

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20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

You know, you say that as a joke, but that actually kinda sounds like an interesting/fun concept for something to do.

Oh no, that sounds sick. Like Shadow having a persona like battle with like gross manipulated manifestation of maria meant to haunt him. 

20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

A humorous little detail with that reveal was that Eggman has his calculating grin going on as usual while establishing his hold on the Pronghorn Sisters, but still openly admits that he had no idea what the heck was going on Cassia anyway. And so matter-of-factly, too. 

My man is a fucking sociopath and I love it

20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Dang. You really liked four that much?

4 is sick

I loved it, Tangle is cool, blaze is cool. Its a fun time, everyone's great. Put tangle and the two new bad guys in the game. 

20 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

You disliked 2 that much?

 

Messed up

Switch 2 and 3

3 has the same issue 6 has where the story is kinda really bad and rushed. But stuff actually happens and shit so It wins out over 6

 

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Well, that I agree with. It's nice to care about what's happening. 

I just kind of wish talks about the tone considered the middle-ground a bit more than they seem too. It feels so obvious yet it gets ignored so often.

Sorry, middle grounds don't exist in a fanbase like this.

The split has negatively affected the consciousness of everyone, even the people who are middling.

It's quite unsatisfying.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Sorry, middle grounds don't exist in a fanbase like this.

The split has negatively affected the consciousness of everyone, even the people who are middling.

It's quite unsatisfying.

Yeah. I guess. 

We're so divided right now, it sucks.

Even worse is that the people in charge don't have a problem dividing them even more. "Looks like people are fighting over our polarizing new direction with Sonic Lost World. This is the perfect time to cleave them in half yet again by announcing Sonic Boom. Fix the main series before we try new stuff? Then we wouldn't be in the NEWS! Man, we're good at our jobs."

 

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My issue of #5 only came last week, and I just got #6 today. I don't know about anyone else who has problems like this, but my subscription for the comic just seems to arrive on a random basis. I'm worried I'll have to wait another 2 months for #7.

Overall, I'm still really enjoying this. Personally, I like the tone of the comic. Lots of humour, but good humour that can be enjoyed by all ages. I think the characterisation is spot on, the Chaotix are good supporting characters, Shadow and Sonic work well bouncing off of each other. I like Rouge in this, I think Rouge works very well when she's being manipulating and has a bit of spikiness to her, rather than just being sultry like in alot of other games.

I mean, I think the issue is ofcourse how much progress the comic has made in getting itself going. I think I can understand why fans are getting a bit frustrated since it is going a bit slowly, with issues #1-#4 all having a similar structure, while the 2 parter of #5-#6 feels like it is continuing the trend of having the major Sonic characters reintroduced. I feel like at this point, the only somewhat major character left is Silver, with maybe Omega and Cream and no doubt someone else I'm forgetting.

I am hopeful that with Tails (I think) back for #7, and the way #6 ends, hopefully things will start getting meatier. Now that most of the character interdocutions are done with, hopefully we'll get a bit more of an ongoing plot moving, and start seeing the Sonic cast really begin to interact with each other. Personally my big one is for Tangle's reappearance, I think she has a lot of potential and could be great fun with other members of the cast.

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Can the tone talk get it's own thread? 

 

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Oh no, that sounds sick. Like Shadow having a persona like battle with like gross manipulated manifestation of maria meant to haunt him. 

 

 

Why does this sound like Shadow's Game, Lollipop Chainsaw, and for a bit DBZ had a threeway?

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

4 is sick

I loved it, Tangle is cool, blaze is cool. Its a fun time, everyone's great. Put tangle and the two new bad guys in the game. 

 

Huh. Okay then.

I wouldn't really know.

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Messed up

Switch 2 and 3

3 has the same issue 6 has where the story is kinda really bad and rushed. But stuff actually happens and shit so It wins out over 6

 

Huh. Wonder if I should regret inquiring or not.

 

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4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Why does this sound like Shadow's Game, Lollipop Chainsaw, and for a bit DBZ had a threeway?

The idea or the song. Because if you haven't heard the song. Its from person 4. And I would recommend person 3, 4 and maybe 5. Really god games overall, 

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

There are plenty of heroes that just strait up kill people when it comes down to it. Childish ones too. 

Sometimes the hard choice is deciding to kill the bad guy who wont stop. Heroes do that sometimes. Sometimes childish ass heroes do that too. 

Never said there wasn't. The point is, Shadow's willingness to go straight off the deep end - right to the "lets kill the guy off" is one of the defining traits that makes him an Antihero rather than a hero.

 

There are plenty of Heroes that are willing to kill. Even Sonic's done it before - but as a rule its only when push comes to shove. When all other avenues has been exhausted and there may well be no other way. Shadow has time and again acted on little more than a greater good mentality, working so long as the ends justify the means. That doesn't make what he does right, even if it does end up saving the world. Its an ideology that notoriously complicated real fast.

 

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

That's more than two wrongs on eggman's side budy

Eggman's got infinite wrongs on his ledger. I was talking about killing him. 

If your solution to stopping a murderer is to murder him  - than I don't need to explain the pure hypocrisy there. Even if its justified by the greater good, that doesn't make that the "right" solution to your problem. Heroes don't look to fix a wrong with a wrong. Thats why they are heroes.

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33 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Never said there wasn't. The point is, Shadow's willingness to go straight off the deep end - right to the "lets kill the guy off" is one of the defining traits that makes him an Antihero rather than a hero.

Ok, you know what . Whatever. 

I don't think we are gonna agree, and I think you are ignoring characterizations and whole games's stories if you think shadow has gone of the deep end. And you think i'm wrong. I'm ok with this

So lets leave this alone. 

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12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The idea or the song. Because if you haven't heard the song. Its from person 4. And I would recommend person 3, 4 and maybe 5. Really god games overall, 

The song.

For purity's sake, the song.

 

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think its strait off the deep end, eggman has done a lot of horrible shit. Including just taking over the planet and murdering people who opposed him if you forgot.

You don't think this is push shove for shadow?

If this were an isolated incident, then sure, maybe Shadow would feel backed into a corner - but its not.

Shadow's solution to quite a bit of stuff is to go and take the most drastic action necessary. In SA2, when he wanted revenge against the people who wronged him, he was more than happy to take his murderous vendetta out on the entire world till Amy set him straight. He could have limited his divine wrath to GUN but nope, right off the deep end. In the comics, Shadow hopped on board a GUN mission to Genocide the remaining population of Black Arms before they even touched down on Earth. Not even giving them a chance to surrender. Nope - just pre-emptive strike and kill em all. He could have set up a final Showdown with Black Death, beat him to the brink and banished his kind away / or even give him the option to surrender - but nope, right off the deep end. Shadow set foot on that comet determined not to let anything leave alive. DEEP END.

 

Lets not forget that this is the Ultimate Life Form we are talking about. If he so wanted to, he could beat everyone and anyone into submission. The fact that Shadow so regularly chooses to go the kill em all route is even more appalling in the knowledge that he himself is more than capable of saving the day through more traditional fisticuffs. 

Push comes to shove means Shadow is out of other options. He's so powerful of a character that the situation would have to be pretty bleak for it to come to that. Mr. Tinker sitting in a village is not push comes to shove territory. Eggman sitting at the throne of a Death Egg with his finger on the world robotisizer? Sure - your out of options. But up until that point whats wrong with run really fast and throw a punch? It saves the day just as well.

 

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

I think in this situation with eggman it makes him right

You think its right to kill Eggman to prevent the countless hardships he may inflict in the future.

If you want to subscribe to that logic then go for it - but just know that under every definition of the usage of the word right there is a mention of being founded morally, and I don't see the strength of moral high ground to be found in killing someone. Its just not there. Stooping to the level of the guy you are trying to stop is in fact, the opposite of moral high ground.

 

 

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

I know plenty of heroes that do that because they see its for the great good. Like main stream super heroes. Wonder Woman will fucking kill you, and she's a heroes. She's also a leader of people, sometimes she has to make tough decisions and the decision is she gotta murder a fool. They aren't reveling in it, they aren't loving the murder , or even numb to it like the punisher. But they are willing to take the L because they feel like its for the greater good. Plenty of heroes in fiction that do that. I don't think shadow's reveling in murder, you say time and again.

I never said once that Shadow revels in murder. You make it sound like I said Shadow enjoys dancing in the blood of his enemies.  What I said was that Shadow is too quick to use it as his trump card, particularly in a series where punching things in the face is more than enough to solve all of life's problems.

 

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

You can argue how wrong the wrong is all you want but lives would be saved , and that's what shadow cars about. 

Clearly. Shadow's all about saving lives. The problem is how he goes about doing it. Be it killing everyone or locking the Master Emerald in a vault - Shadows end justify the means argument is a slippery slope.

Shoot, look over at the Injustice franchise. If you work completely on a mindset of total justice by whatever means necessary, the future ends up a very bleak place. Shadow is this universes variant of Superman. Enough power to make the world bend a knee. If you want him to operate only on Justification - there is very little stopping him from subjugating the entire population to his own idea of justice. We've been down that road before and it didn't look very "right" to me.

 

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