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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Nah, I think it would totally make him right. The world would literally be a better place eggman died, like factually

The world could have been destroyed by Black Doom if Eggman hadn't been around to help fight him off. Sonic himself argues that Eggman's involvement may have made the critical difference between success and failure there.

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45 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Well for one, like you said, it's an introduction to Shadow (and Rouge). That's the main hook of this issue, it's an introduction to him and his establishment to the world and his relationship with Sonic, like literally every other issue before it. It doesn't really do any more or less than the previous issues. In fact, it's completely different from the previous issues because the main conflict is not Sonic just teaming up with the issue's featured character to defend a village, the conflict is with the featured character, in this case being Shadow. 

Like, if you want me to break it down.

Issue 1: Introduction to Tails and establishment that Eggman's army is on the move and that someone is pulling the strings

Issue 2: Introduction to Amy 

Issue 3: Introduction to Knuckles and Rough and Tumble

Issue 4: Introduction to Blaze and Tangle

You get the idea. So I don't get how this issue is pointless when it builds off every pre-existing issue so far. You said the story can work without Shadow, and in theory, it can but then you'd basically eliminate the entire conflict of this issue and it'd just be about nothing.

You could make this story about something else more relevant to the larger plot with its own conflict. It doesn't even have to have shadow and rouge in it. 

Also shadow popular as shit, you could have introduced him later and it would have been fine. 

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And yes, Shadow does matter here because he's the main opposition to Sonic's stance on how to deal with Eggman. Like, all of that kind of matters to establishing Sonic & Shadow's relationship as well as adding to the situation of how to deal with Eggman in his current state. 

I don't really think their relationship particularly matter too much, one because... they actually haven't really been at odds in years and the last time they were at adds a shadow from the past got ripped out and wanted to fight sonic.Two, I don't think that this even needed to be dealt with, now you could have just told another story maybe about what's going on behind the scenes and then reveal that thing at the end. This story just doesn't seem relevant to anything, if sonic and shadow wanna work on their relationship they can see a relationship counselor in their own time, but as of currently this doesn't make me give a shit it seems Irrelevant.

However, I will concede this to you. If the thing I said happens, and eggman not dying actually contributes something interesting to sonic's and shadow's characters, later and makes an interesting story. Like shadow potentially doing an enerjak or just being fucking pissed, or people in the world not like sonic because of this decision. Then this issue would be worth it, I will be 100% wrong I will have not seen the bigger picture. And I will look very silly.

But as of currently, seems rather pointless.  

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

The world could have been destroyed by Black Doom if Eggman hadn't been around to help fight him off. Sonic himself argues that Eggman's involvement may have made the critical difference between success and failure there.

Eh, I would make the argument that difference between success and failure is that shadow broke through the mind control and killed the guy. 

But even still , so? That's neat he did that, shadow's still justified. 

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37 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But even still , so? That's neat he did that, shadow's still justified. 

On a more personal level, Shadow has Eggman to thank for freeing him from GUN.

...And for saving his life after the ARK incident.

I mean, I could go on. Every time Shadow saved the world owes at least some thanks to Eggman for freeing and saving Shadow's life in the first place. And that's on top of all the times Eggman helped save the world directly. 

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7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's cartoons for children, dude. If you can't get behind the fundamental nature of the series then Sonic just isn't the kind of series that you're into.

I blame Sonic Team for that change they made in the early 2000's that spawned fans who do not get this and worse, try to meassure the Sonic franchise - all of it - with the same stick as other franchises.

Then there is the issue a certain Shadow fan (the one who said Rouge was Shadow's Tails, lol) does not seem to get of how this conflict over taking down Eggman/Mr. Tinker being the right thing to do or not serves to introduce Shadow into the book as the character that is going to clash with Sonic's morals because instead of that, he/she was more focused on having the narrative suck up to Shadow and prove him right because he's so popular, a "big deal" and anything that doesn't portray him as a badass killing machine is a disservice to this one SUPPORT character.

At least be thankful Shadow is being given a legit cause to clash with Sonic instead of being handled like in Boom where he looks down on Sonic because of having friends and is just a petty bully with no redeeming qualities that gets triggered with ease.

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17 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

On a more personal level, Shadow has Eggman to thank for freeing him from GUN.

...And for saving his life after the ARK incident.

I mean, I could go on. Every time Shadow saved the world owes at least some thanks to Eggman for freeing and saving Shadow's life in the first place. And that's on top of all the times Eggman helped save the world directly. 

You know shadow more than anyone would strait up be like  " he made a mistake" about releasing him. Along with that he helped shadow so he could do research on him and later try and convince he was an andriod so he would obey him. Thats a horrifying form of attempted mental abuse and eggmans alternative motives should not be ignored.

Shadow would be the first one to tell you that saving the world does not excuse you and you know that.

Even if it came to himself. And you know that. Shadow will thrown his own life away if need be, you know that

The crux of sonics argument is that eggman in this period of amnesia can redeem himself. You know goddamn well sonic wouldn't even talk to shadow about this if eggman was still evil. 

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

You know shadow more than anyone would strait up be like  " he made a mistake" about releasing him. Along with that he helped shadow so he could do research on him and later try and convince he was an andriod so he would obey him. Thats a horrifying form of attempted mental abuse and eggmans alternative motives should not be ignored.

Shadow would be the first one to tell you that saving the world does not excuse you and you know that.

Even if it came to himself. And you know that

Eh, don't tell me what I know. We all think differently, pal.

I think that even though Eggman's a bad person, he's not as bad as Black Doom, Solaris, Ifirit, and other world-destroying mega-monsters.

He's a man who's demonstrated a capacity for good repeatedly, and while he may have gone down the wrong path in life, I feel like "Mr. Tinker" gives us a glimpse at the sort of man Eggman could have been if he'd made different decisions. After all, he still retains Eggman's intellect and subconsciously remembers aspects of Eggman's goals - like Eggmanland. I think that even when (and it will be when, not "if") he gets his memories restored, it won't have made Sonic's argument any less right.

Those other villains I listed earlier don't have redeeming qualities or a better nature to appeal to. Eggman does, and that makes him a bit more complicated than just a monolith of evil that needs to be destroyed at all costs. He's evil, but not irredeemably so.

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I finally got to read it and I liked the conflict between the ideals of Sonic and Shadow and the strange twist at the end that raises more questions. I definitely think the episodic introductions of these characters definitely restricts how they tell these stories, This conflict with Shadow probably could be improved if it went on more than 1 issue but that's not the purpose of this arc we are just being introduced to these characters, I cant imagine the reveal of who exactly Mr. Tinker is will be that shocking as they will want to move on from this to start telling stories with continuity. That said this arc is doing its job just fine at its purpose. The design of Rouge would suggest to me that IDW or Sega is not as restrictive as Archie, I will be interested to see future examples of more creative freedom at IDW. I'm not sure how many more characters are left to be introduced though.

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23 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Eh, don't tell me what I know. We all think differently, pal.

I don't think there's much room to think differently on this. Shadow is often self loathing and self sacrificial , and willing to make extremely hard decisions about him or the well being of everyone else, probably the most out of the whole cast. If someone ran up on shadow and was like " i have been affected by your actions the world would be a better place if you were gone " he would accept that shit 100% of the time. 

He would be that mans boss fight, whenever wherever. 

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I think that even though Eggman's a bad person, he's not as bad as Black Doom, Solaris, Ifirit, and other world-destroying mega-monsters.

You do realize your argument here is he's not as bad as an a lovecraftian horror that wants to murder everything. If " not that bad " as that is your argument the person you are arguing against is literally one step away from being the so evil that's its just an entity of evil.

"He doesn't want to destroy the world, He just wants to take it over and kill everyone who opposes him. See he's not that bad" 

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He's a man who's demonstrated a capacity for good repeatedly,

He's demonstrated the capacity of saving his own ass if he's not the one to take over the world

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and while he may have gone down the wrong path in life, I feel like "Mr. Tinker" gives us a glimpse at the sort of man Eggman could have been if he'd made different decisions.

That's cool, unless he stays that person forever, its sort of irrelevant to the point. Like are you gonna make him stay Mr. Tinker? 

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After all, he still retains Eggman's intellect and subconsciously remembers aspects of Eggman's goals - like Eggmanland. I think that even when (and it will be when, not "if") he gets his memories restored, it won't have made Sonic's argument any less right.

I think the thing that results in the most lives saved is the right thing to do in this scenario when dealing with larger than life super villains. 

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Those other villains I listed earlier don't have redeeming qualities or a better nature to appeal to.

The only time the better nature of eggman has been appealed to is when he had to save his own ass. When he tried to control shadow, and when shadow tried to kill him the first time and he got spooked. You can't just talk to eggman and he goes " oh darn , sonic's right I am a bit of a jerk. Shut it all down " . No, he has to actively be threatened, or his goals be threaten to remotely act ok. You appeal to his desire to stay alive and then he acts right. 

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Eggman does, and that makes him a bit more complicated than just a monolith of evil that needs to be destroyed at all costs. He's evil, but not irredeemably so.

That's neat he's a complicated character. Its why I like him, its why I don't want him to die and I want him to be around. It does not however make shadow not right. Shadow is pretty consistent I think. If sonic became evil and that was the only way to stop him, if rouge became that evil and needed to be stopped, if the ghost of maria spawned from the ether and was strait up like " Yo shadow I was actually an evil entity that sent you out into the world to do destruction and you havent been doing it so , i'm gonna do it" and she was a boss fight. He would strait up just kill all of them. He feels as though their past deeds may allow him to give them a conversation or two like " hey stop" but his connection to these people are not worth  the potential lives protected. And while I do not think that makes him unequivocally right, I do think he isn't wrong in his thinking. And his logic is consistent 
 

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6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

He's demonstrated the capacity of saving his own ass if he's not the one to take over the world

Dude jumped in front of a rogue Cubot to save Tails in Lost World.

He couldn't have known that was going to happen ahead of time, but he still instantly - without hesitating - leaped into action to save his enemy's life. Sure, he went right back to fighting Sonic by the end of the game, but at that moment, they were working together - and Eggman proved to be an honorable ally who risked his own life to save Tails's. "Saving his ass" would be just standing there and letting Tails fend for himself.

Go back even further to Sonic 2 for Gamegear, and you'll see something similar - Eggman saving Sonic from accidentally falling into lava. Sure, he only "saves" him so that he can fight and defeat him on his own terms with one of his robots, but it still shows the man has a sense of honor and thinks enough of his enemies that he's willing to save them from sudden death.

Eggman's commendable acts are motivated by far more than mere self-preservation.

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Dude jumped in front of a rogue Cubot to save Tails in Lost World.

He couldn't have known that was going to happen ahead of time, but he still instantly - without hesitating - leaped into action to save his enemy's life. Sure, he went right back to fighting Sonic by the end of the game, but at that moment, they were working together - and Eggman proved to be an honorable ally who risked his own life to save Tails's. "Saving his ass" would be just standing there and letting Tails fend for himself.

One unless you remembering something i'm not, I don't think that was gonna take out tails. It didn't take out him either. It was beneficial to him to have everyone operating at full capacity. 

By the way , I LIKE THIS about eggman. I like that eggman is a ruthless caniving jerk who who will lie to you and then use your robotized sister as a means to keep you in check.Old canon but remember he did do that. I like that he tried to manipulate shadow to obey him. I like that he's a spineless coward. I like that's the kind of evil person he is. I'm just not one to also pretend that this person is somehow a secret hero in waiting because I like him. 

Sometimes people are kinda just assholes. That's it, I find this one entertaining and i'm not gonna pretend he isn't. We talking about the guy who uses animals to power robots. That's how flagrant his own disregard for lives other than his is, under normal circumstances 

5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

So, how would you rank each issue that's come out up till this point?

4,3, 5,1,2, 6

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45 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

I blame Sonic Team for that change they made in the early 2000's that spawned fans who do not get this and worse, try to meassure the Sonic franchise - all of it - with the same stick as other franchises.

Just because something is made for children, it doesn’t mean it can’t be more complex than Dora The Explorer.

And what you’re saying is that fans are wrong to want more out of Sonic that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows is very insulting to those who got into the franchise because of those elements.

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

One unless you remembering something i'm not, I don't think that was gonna take out tails. It didn't take out him either. It was beneficial to him to have everyone operating at full capacity. 

In Sonic's own words, "What were you thinking, Tails? You could've been killed!"

So yeah, stakes were pretty high there. And sure, it's beneficial for him to help, but the guy's not such a spineless coward that he's unwilling to put himself on the line when it counts.

Eggman's actually a very brave character; He's constantly taking on powerful enemies - good or bad - himself. It doesn't mean he's a hero, of course not. Eggman is a bad person, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to him. That's boring and unsatisfying. Eggman having some positive merits while still being unambiguously villainous and committed to his own selfish ideals is far more interesting than him being a flat, static villain with absolutely no sense of morality whatsoever. 

And again, Sonic 2 8-bit literally gives Eggman no advantage. Letting Sonic slip and fall into the lava would have been the most pragmatic choice there, but he saved him anyway. I think that's worth mentioning.

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2 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Just because something is made for children, it doesn’t mean it can’t be more complex than Dora The Explorer.

And what you’re saying is that fans are wrong to want more out of Sonic that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows.

Can we just stop this kind of bullshit? That if someone doesn't buy into the level of seriousness or darkness or whatever it is that you want, that they don't want anything more than toddler edutainment?

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8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Can we just stop this kind of bullshit? That if someone doesn't buy into the level of seriousness or darkness or whatever it is that you want, that they don't want anything more than toddler edutainment?

Only if people stop labeling fans as emo angsty edgelords for wanting something more serious and isn’t all jokes 24/7.

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19 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I think I should take time out to commend Ian for actually writing Sonic in a way that I thoroughly enjoy when it comes to this book. It's no secret that for the longest time my least favorite version of Sonic (that I've personally experienced) was the version of him that was presented in the Archie comics that I read. I thought every negative trait about him was completely overdone and crossed the acceptable boundary I personally had in place for what I figured was a likable depiction of his character. Everytime I think about him, I imagine some underhanded comment made at someone's expense packaged with the excuse that he "makes fun" of everyone and that's why it's okay for him to just be an ass instead of playful. Or I recall his behavior during Geoffery's trial; hooting and hollering with excitement over the scene as the guy poured out his heart over the hardships he faced in life and the regret he had about the way things fell through.

I went into this worried about hearing Ian Flynn was going to be writing the book because I desperately didn't want that version of Sonic to come back. He had gotten a bit better in my eyes when the reboot happened but not by too much. However, he's just completely become exactly what I've always wanted him to be here. He's a sweet guy with an obvious big heart but also manages to be playful and jokey without coming off like an asshole. The big meaty grins he has on his face are adorable, in part thanks to the art, but it always gives me a warm feeling seeing him. I like looking at Sonic and seeing a guy I could pal around with instead of just someone trying his damndest to ovesell his perception of cool.

 

He wasn't all that different from any iteration of Sonic to me who grins and wisecracks all the time, plus the cheekyness. But here he faced someone who was virtually equal to him in every way and said to be stronger in raw combat, but Sonic was too calm and self assured here, like fighting Shadow is as carefree as fighting Knuckles or Metal here, making his fight seem like he was a older brother treating the annoying little like a rough playmate. Shadow here was also too serious and tense in exchanging blows with Sonic, he's usually the calm and and sometimes snarky one when they fight while Sonic basically stays on guard.

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Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

In Sonic's own words, "What were you thinking, Tails? You could've been killed!"

Sonic was wrong, what else is new. Because eggman was certainly fine. Also, tails has been through more stuff than a rogue robot getting a hit on him. 

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

So yeah, stakes were pretty high there. And sure, it's beneficial for him to help, but the guy's not such a spineless coward that he's unwilling to put himself on the line when it counts.

I think he's totally a spineless coward, this benifted him and knew it wouldn't kill him. You don't think he knows his robots more than anyone else. 

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

Eggman's actually a very brave character; He's constantly taking on powerful enemies - good or bad - himself. It doesn't mean he's a hero, of course not. Eggman is a bad person, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to him. That's boring and unsatisfying. Eggman having some positive merits while still being unambiguously villainous and committed to his own selfish ideals is far more interesting than him being a flat, static villain with absolutely no sense of morality whatsoever. 

I don't think eggman is brave , I think eggman is extremely egotistical. I feel like eggman's cowardice is quite clear, he's just willing to do crazy world takings schemes and fight foes he's lost against because he's so much of an egotistical ( or Egg-otsitical) narcissist that he feels like he's right he's owed this and all will come to pass because he's smarter. You are talking about a guy who builds robots with his face on it and a death star with his face on it. 

As for , him just being a villain and that's boring. I never said he wasn't complicated , but being complicated don't make you not a bad guy. It just makes you an entertaining bad guy. 

Though there is a pretty common argument by some folks that they don't like villians who try and redeem themselves and think its a cop out. I don't believe that personally but I just want to put that out there that there are people who like villains being villians

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

And again, Sonic 2 8-bit literally gives Eggman no advantage. Letting Sonic slip and fall into the lava would have been the most pragmatic choice there, but he saved him anyway. I think that's worth mentioning.

I could make the argument that he wanted to torture and kill him as indicated by the last game and the last game's prototype script. That said, forces is bad, so I'll give you this one. 

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On 6/28/2018 at 6:52 PM, Shadowlax said:

You know Neutralize doesn't mean kill, it means to disarm to render harmless. 

If you come at me with a knife, and I disarm and hold you down, I have neutralized you. 

 

Okay your headcannon was getting funny at first now it's sad. Shadow killed Infinite's crew and it was pretty much what set Infinite off along with being bested embarressingly since Shadow usually denied him death like his comrades because Shadow viewed him weakling and stained Infinite's honor.

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12 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

Just because something is made for children, it doesn’t mean it can’t be more complex than Dora The Explorer.

And what you’re saying is that fans are wrong to want more out of Sonic that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows is very insulting to those who got into the franchise because of those elements.

Gotta love when people put words into my mouth and then pretend that they are right.

Please show a single post where I ask for that to happen. I dare you to do so or else, simply accept that you don't have much of an argument.

On the other hand, I think this thread has more than enough examples of people who see the franchise taking a wrong turn for a couple titles and think that the franchise is going to go full dark/edge or who for god know why, are incapable of realizing that the franchise goes more by Saturday Morning cartoon logic that excuses the lack of real life-like consequences in favor of keeping things fun, and insist that the writers must be wrong or not understand the franchis because they choose to not follow them.

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10 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's usually because Shadow is by far the most popular and well known of the three 

And the main lead of SA2 along with Sonic with his own story and the lore about him. Rouge has bo background story and she's sides with Shadow by having ties to Shadow's main source of conflict against humanity. Omega literally shows up in heroes as a new character created by Eggman. Shadow has richer lore, more flexibility with the main lead, more powers and skills, a darker theme and more mature elements and finallly he stands out as the few characters that Sonic doesn't joke more around or makes light off.

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Well, I think either way is a fair reading. Personally I can't see Shadow killing some random dudes Eggman hired unless he had a very good reason, and we weren't really given any reason to think that, so...*shrug*

Shadow isn't a guy who doesn't care what or who he does to someone to achieve goals, him killing on a whim is why his a good rival to Sonic as a foil. He abandons ethics for efficiency and progress.

1 hour ago, Skull Leader said:

I blame Sonic Team for that change they made in the early 2000's that spawned fans who do not get this and worse, try to meassure the Sonic franchise - all of it - with the same stick as other franchises.

Then there is the issue a certain Shadow fan (the one who said Rouge was Shadow's Tails, lol) does not seem to get of how this conflict over taking down Eggman/Mr. Tinker being the right thing to do or not serves to introduce Shadow into the book as the character that is going to clash with Sonic's morals because instead of that, he/she was more focused on having the narrative suck up to Shadow and prove him right because he's so popular, a "big deal" and anything that doesn't portray him as a badass killing machine is a disservice to this one SUPPORT character.

At least be thankful Shadow is being given a legit cause to clash with Sonic instead of being handled like in Boom where he looks down on Sonic because of having friends and is just a petty bully with no redeeming qualities that gets triggered with ease.

Shadow clashes with Sonic because it's a cool rival moment and makes kids geek out. Shadow clashes with Sonic for no reason in the games because of this, Shadow in Boom is already a Vegeta clone, the Sonic - Goku similarites just add to the appeal.

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23 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

Gotta love when people put words into my mouth and then pretend that they are right.

Please show a single post where I ask for that to happen. I dare you to do so or else, simply accept that you don't have much of an argument.

On the other hand, I think this thread has more than enough examples of people who see the franchise taking a wrong turn for a couple titles and think that the franchise is going to go full dark/edge or who for god know why, are incapable of realizing that the franchise goes more by Saturday Morning cartoon logic that excuses the lack of real life-like consequences in favor of keeping things fun, and insist that the writers must be wrong or not understand the franchis because they choose to not follow them.

You wanna know why I used Dora the Explorer in response. Because people like you keep going to that extreme of full dark/edge.

Just because fans want something more serious does not mean we want the franchise to take place in a Frank Miller elseworld comic. We just want to take it seriously and that’s hard to do with crap like Baldy McNosehair.

In a previous post on this page you blamed Sega for making a change that attracted people who got hooked because of the Adventure games and in turn Sonic overall. To me it gives the implication that we’re wrong to enjoy those games and to want something more complex than “Rescue the princess again” is some kind of federal offense.

I have no problem with the people who enjoy the classic era stuff but you’re not making it easy when you keep exaggerating what other fans want when it comes to tone and plot. 

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8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's cartoons for children, dude. If you can't get behind the fundamental nature of the series then Sonic just isn't the kind of series that you're into.

Thank you! God it feels like too many people take this goofy ass franchise way too seriously. 

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