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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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1 minute ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

Clearly. Shadow's all about saving lives. The problem is how he goes about doing it. Be it killing everyone or locking the Master Emerald in a vault - Shadows end justify the means argument is a slippery slope.

Shoot, look over at the Injustice franchise. If you work completely on a mindset of total justice by whatever means necessary, the future ends up a very bleak place. Shadow is this universes variant of Superman. Enough power to make the world bend a knee. If you want him to operate only on Justification - there is very little stopping him from subjugating the entire population to his own idea of justice. We've been down that road before and it didn't look very "right" to me.

 

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"And this is where I'd put my trophy--IF! I! HAD! ONE!!!"

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38 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Ok, you know what . Whatever. 

I don't think we are gonna agree, and I think you are ignoring characterizations and whole games's stories if you think shadow has gone of the deep end. And you think i'm wrong. I'm ok with this

So lets leave this alone. 

 

Fair enough. I think King Shadow is as good a place to drop this argument as any. 😋

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Its amazing how 6 issues of this has caused such a stir 😕

15 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You could make this story about something else more relevant to the larger plot with its own conflict. It doesn't even have to have shadow and rouge in it. 

Also shadow popular as shit, you could have introduced him later and it would have been fine.

Yea, they COULD have introduced Shadow later, just like how they could have introduced Tails, Knuckles, and Amy later too. They also could have never bothered with this whole Eggman storyline at all either. 

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I don't really think their relationship particularly matter too much, one because... they actually haven't really been at odds in years and the last time they were at adds a shadow from the past got ripped out and wanted to fight sonic.Two, I don't think that this even needed to be dealt with, now you could have just told another story maybe about what's going on behind the scenes and then reveal that thing at the end. This story just doesn't seem relevant to anything, if sonic and shadow wanna work on their relationship they can see a relationship counselor in their own time, but as of currently this doesn't make me give a shit it seems Irrelevant.

Yea, and the two of them not being at odds for years is why their characters have been so fucking boring for so long. So yes, I will take conflict over the two of them simply just standing there with no tension whatsoever. And once again, all of this isn't addressing the actual content of the book itself. It's story, plot or whatever. You didn't like because it's not what you wanted, which is fine. But if that's all your argument amounts to then I really don't know what else to tell you. 

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However, I will concede this to you. If the thing I said happens, and eggman not dying actually contributes something interesting to sonic's and shadow's characters, later and

makes an interesting story. Like shadow potentially doing an enerjak or just being fucking pissed, or people in the world not like sonic because of this decision. Then this issue would be worth it, I will be 100% wrong I will have not seen the bigger picture. And I will look very silly.

But as of currently, seems rather pointless.  

 

So you just want Shadow to look cool and for Sonic to be wrong. This reeks of fanboy logic you know.

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23 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Shadow's introduction was to challenge Sonic's moral standpoint on letting Eggman go at the end off issue 5, that's the story. The Eggman mystery had more or less been "resolved" with the "Eggmanland" bit being there to add some ambiguity and to justify Shadow's inclusion. The entirety of issue 6 is Sonic having to prove his moral standing to Shadow by justifying that there's no reason to hurt Eggman in his current when he isn't a danger and that he could be a potential ally despite his past atrocities.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Life got in in the way and all that.

Anyway, I agree with you on Shadow being here to provide conflict with Sonic's decision, but where my problem lays is more with when Shadow was introduced. As I kind of elaborated when I had posted this solution in the post you responded to 

23 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Two; introduce Shadow and the conflict before Sonic has made up his mind about the situation. In that way Sonic and Shadow are fighting with the question of is what Sonic is fighting for even real. He seeks that answer and needs to triumph over Shadow to find it. From there issue 5 would have ended with Sonic unsure of what he is dealing with with "Mr. Tinker" and issue 6 would have ended where we started it instead. Not a perfect solution but I think it would have solved my problem with this issue.

As I may not have made clear, I actually like the role Shadow plays in this issue in regards to Sonic's decisions. Even better yet, Shadow's very presence provides the imagery of someone whose own amnesia did not change the way they did things which further calls into question the nature of "Mr. Tinker". But when I say he is introduced too late I really do feel that way.

Ian so far has been kind of seesawing on presenting Sonic with his no regrets, don't look back attitude and issue 6 read as though it was in place, making the conflict a mute point to me. Sure Shadow is challenging Sonic's decision, but it's like throwing a rubber ball at concrete that has already dried; It bounces off with no effect. That's how I feel about Shadow's efforts this issue where as I feel if he had been introduced before Sonic made up his mind it would have been like throwing that rubber ball at still curing concrete and the effect would have been obvious. Sonic would have been question "Mr. Tinker" and his legitimacy as well as wanting to believe when Shadow appears presenting to Sonic just from being there the argument that amnesia does not necessarily change someone. Then Sonic's argument about the good Eggman is capable of would have been as much to convince himself to give "Mr. Tinker" a chance as it would have been to convince Shadow not to off him. That tiny little difference in timing makes a world of difference to me, because otherwise you could go from when "Mr. Tinker" says Eggmanland, to the scene where he shows it off, to the reveal without losing anything.

All of that said, I do acknowledge that this introduction is likely necessary for when Shadow appears again so knew readers don't ask who he is and the pace isn't broken by filling us in then, but I just feel the execution could have been better by playing with the timing of Shadow's appearance. As it was timed, it resulted in a rather dull issue for me because I didn't feel like there was any real conflict felt by Sonic this issue. He was static to me and that is a result of when Shadow is introduced; after Sonic has made his decision and not before. Regardless of how I feel though, the issue is what it is and no amount of debate will change that. At this point all I can really do is wait to see what comes next and hope it washes away this bad taste I've been left with like issue 4 did for me after issue 3.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its amazing how 6 issues of this has caused such a stir 😕

It has Shadow.

Trying to appeal to Shadow Fans caused discussion about Shadow.

Disappointing Shadow Fans caused discussion about Shadow.

Actively avoiding discussion about Shadow causes discussion about Shadow.

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12 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

It has Shadow.

Trying to appeal to Shadow Fans caused discussion about Shadow.

Disappointing Shadow Fans caused discussion about Shadow.

Actively avoiding discussion about Shadow causes discussion about Shadow.

This thread just can't escape discussion about Shadow...

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2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its amazing how 6 issues of this has caused such a stir 😕

Yea, they COULD have introduced Shadow later, just like how they could have introduced Tails, Knuckles, and Amy later too. They also could have never bothered with this whole Eggman storyline at all either. 

Yes. I think introducing shadow a bit later would have better yes. Your point, they could have done those things, I think doing one of those things would have benefited the story

 

 

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Yea, and the two of them not being at odds for years is why their characters have been so fucking boring for so long. So yes, I will take conflict over the two of them simply just standing there with no tension whatsoever.

If you think them talking couldn't yield interesting story telling and there being another threat to deal with , or them even flashing back to another threat, you have an extremely limited view of story telling. My favorite comic arc in the last series for the most part had shadow and knuckles talking and cooperating in a cave. The reason it was interesting is because the got to understand eachother. ( and amy had like the best moments of characterizations in her entire existance and had a moment that on its own justified why Ian flyn should be writing the games).

So if you you will take that over talking, that's cool. I just think we have already had story telling that proved talking a lot could be pretty neat .Heck I would argue that arc is the good version of this last issue spread out into 4 books instead of crammed into one. And it wasn't just story relevant, it was relevant to 3 stories , sorry 4 stories at once. That story addressed 4 plot lines at once. Not only did something happen in that story 4 separate storylines got progressed in that story. And a lot of that shit was just talking, shit was great. 

 

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And once again, all of this isn't addressing the actual content of the book itself.

I did address that. I addressed how I don't think its not good, and poorly told and has a badly illustrated fight ontop of the shadow thing. We have addressed this multiple times. You gotta like concede I have addressed this , or you just have to give up this argument. You can't argue the other person hasn't addressed the issue just because you happen to be in favor of the thing they don't like. 

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It's story, plot or whatever. You didn't like because it's not what you wanted, which is fine. But if that's all your argument amounts to then I really don't know what else to tell you. 

..Yeah? That's how opinions work. It isn't what I thought the story should be, nor did it convince me that it was the story that it should be. It was rather poor and I think it should be about something else... that's how opinions work my guy. 

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So you just want Shadow to look cool and for Sonic to be wrong. This reeks of fanboy logic you know.

You realize me using enerjak an example would imply that shadow would be the one ending up wrong in the and defeated, and being a bad guy. So you know, actually read the things that I type please. Further more... yeah I do want shadow to look cool he's like my favorite character. I also want everyone else too look cool having a boss fight against a crazy shadow would do both of those things. 

But forgetting all that, I also mentioned factions of people not like sonic for the actions he has done...which has nothing to do with shadow. I me wanting sonic to be wrong and possibly grow a bit isn't shadow fanboyism...its story telling. I don't think sonic often wrong and beat down in general. And i mentioned this in various thread, I would not mind if sonic was wrong more often to learn, I like the version of sonic boom sonic because I feel like people in that universe don't let his head get too big and he's often challenged in ways that make him have to compromise, which is something normal sonic I feel doesn't do often. And wasn't able to do often in the comics because sega for a long time didn't allow it. 

So maybe just MAYBE , the thing that I want is for the story to go places. And I want this book that do not like to actually have effects instead of nothing, and I was spit balling possibilities in my head, but my main desire is that it actually goes somewhere. 

So before you accuse me of rabbid shadow fanboyism , read the shit that I typed. 

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1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Life got in in the way and all that.

Anyway, I agree with you on Shadow being here to provide conflict with Sonic's decision, but where my problem lays is more with when Shadow was introduced. As I kind of elaborated when I had posted this solution in the post you responded to 

As I may not have made clear, I actually like the role Shadow plays in this issue in regards to Sonic's decisions. Even better yet, Shadow's very presence provides the imagery of someone whose own amnesia did not change the way they did things which further calls into question the nature of "Mr. Tinker". But when I say he is introduced too late I really do feel that way.

Ian so far has been kind of seesawing on presenting Sonic with his no regrets, don't look back attitude and issue 6 read as though it was in place, making the conflict a mute point to me. Sure Shadow is challenging Sonic's decision, but it's like throwing a rubber ball at concrete that has already dried; It bounces off with no effect. That's how I feel about Shadow's efforts this issue where as I feel if he had been introduced before Sonic made up his mind it would have been like throwing that rubber ball at still curing concrete and the effect would have been obvious. Sonic would have been question "Mr. Tinker" and his legitimacy as well as wanting to believe when Shadow appears presenting to Sonic just from being there the argument that amnesia does not necessarily change someone. Then Sonic's argument about the good Eggman is capable of would have been as much to convince himself to give "Mr. Tinker" a chance as it would have been to convince Shadow not to off him. That tiny little difference in timing makes a world of difference to me, because otherwise you could go from when "Mr. Tinker" says Eggmanland, to the scene where he shows it off, to the reveal without losing anything.

All of that said, I do acknowledge that this introduction is likely necessary for when Shadow appears again so knew readers don't ask who he is and the pace isn't broken by filling us in then, but I just feel the execution could have been better by playing with the timing of Shadow's appearance. As it was timed, it resulted in a rather dull issue for me because I didn't feel like there was any real conflict felt by Sonic this issue. He was static to me and that is a result of when Shadow is introduced; after Sonic has made his decision and not before.

That is a considerable part of the issue, yes.

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

At this point all I can really do is wait to see what comes next and hope it washes away this bad taste I've been left with like issue 4 did for me after issue 3.

Really now? Those are the issue numbers you meant to say...?

How so?

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

Yea, and the two of them not being at odds for years is why their characters have been so fucking boring for so long. So yes, I will take conflict over the two of them simply just standing there with no tension whatsoever.

Are you talking about Sonic and Shadow or Tails?

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43 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

It has Shadow.

Trying to appeal to Shadow Fans caused discussion about Shadow.

Disappointing Shadow Fans caused discussion about Shadow.

Actively avoiding discussion about Shadow causes discussion about Shadow.

I will say this again

0 to Shadow should be a metric in all sonic related threads

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Just now, DabigRG said:

Really now? Those are the issue numbers you meant to say...?

How so?

My biggest problem with issue 3 is that Knuckles felt painfully one dimensional to me. I didn't get any feeling of of his rivalry with Sonic, none of his boasting, or really anything beyond he punches things. Issue 3 was another that fell flat to me and Knuckles characterization (or lack thereof) is part of the reason. In contrast, issue 4 provided a sense of urgency, brought in Blaze with an introduction that while arguably forced was addressed in a way that was entertaining, and Tangle was a ball of genuine in over her head zaniness that provided a very entertaining audience surrogate angle for me. Tangle alone pretty much washed away the bad taste that issue 3 left me with and having the rest of the issue hit it's beat plus showing how someone new to it all would react in an entertaining manner just struck all the right notes for me. 

I hope that clarifies things at least a little bit. My initial wording was perhaps a little confusing (honestly that whole post is full of spelling and grammatical errors) so I hope this helps. Or to simplify further, issues 3 and 6, have left me with a bad taste, but since issue 4 washed that bad taste away I'm hoping issue 7 does the same. If there's any real problem with that hope is that issue 4 came out a week later whereas I'll be dwelling on 6 for a month if I don't just push it out of my mind.

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But will we keep him in the comics if he ever works on the games? And what if the story's great but the gameplay fucking sucks? (like Sonic 06).

We need dedicated adventure fan developpers (like Hero engine on youtube).

It's a double edged sword.

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14 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

On the side, Flynn4Sonic is a recent thing on twitter, started by Ian himself. Maybe we have a chance

Sega: Flynn Gets to write for a sonic game 

Fans: YEAH

Sega: The sonic the movie tie in game!

Fans: This looks like trash and we don't want to buy it 

Sega: Guess the fans didn't like flynn after all

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If we want Flynn4Sonic, we also want Hero4Sonic (the 3D Taxman) (logically). Use these two hashtags together because we don't only want a great  story, but also a great Adventure-style gameplay!

Do we really want a great story with worthless boost gameplay? A gameplay that is good for nothing? No, so we also need #Hero4Sonic (here's his 3D engine video:

We don't want Flynn associated with garbage boost2win pseudo-gameplay! We want Flynn associated with great Adventure-style gameplay because he's above games where stories depend on levels!!

I like to imagine having a game better than SA1 (the best 3D Sonic game), Hero's engine plus Flynn's writing can provide that.

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1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

My biggest problem with issue 3 is that Knuckles felt painfully one dimensional to me. I didn't get any feeling of of his rivalry with Sonic, none of his boasting, or really anything beyond he punches things. Issue 3 was another that fell flat to me and Knuckles characterization (or lack thereof) is part of the reason. In contrast, issue 4 provided a sense of urgency, brought in Blaze with an introduction that while arguably forced was addressed in a way that was entertaining, and Tangle was a ball of genuine in over her head zaniness that provided a very entertaining audience surrogate angle for me. Tangle alone pretty much washed away the bad taste that issue 3 left me with and having the rest of the issue hit it's beat plus showing how someone new to it all would react in an entertaining manner just struck all the right notes for me. 

I hope that clarifies things at least a little bit. My initial wording was perhaps a little confusing (honestly that whole post is full of spelling and grammatical errors) so I hope this helps. Or to simplify further, issues 3 and 6, have left me with a bad taste, but since issue 4 washed that bad taste away I'm hoping issue 7 does the same. If there's any real problem with that hope is that issue 4 came out a week later whereas I'll be dwelling on 6 for a month if I don't just push it out of my mind.

Oh. I misunderstood the issue numbers, even if my confusion still applied.

I will say that while I still liked Issue 3 as sort of expected, it was still somewhere between okay and good-ish. Primarily because, as lax mentioned, it indeed felt a tad rushed and like it needed another 2 pages to make satisfactory use of what it had to work with. 

By contrast, Issue 4 was actually a contender for weakest issue before 6 came out, notable since it's probably the only issue I recall only reading(or rather skimming) once and never touched again as of recent(though it's timing was probably a minor factor in that).

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

If we want Flynn4Sonic, we also want Hero4Sonic (the 3D Taxman) (logically). Use these two hashtags together because we don't only want a great  story, but also a great Adventure-style gameplay!

Do we really want a great story with worthless boost gameplay? A gameplay that is good for nothing? No, so we also need #Hero4Sonic (here's his 3D engine video:

We don't want Flynn associated with garbage boost2win pseudo-gameplay! We want Flynn associated with great Adventure-style gameplay because he's above games where stories depend on levels!!

I like to imagine having a game better than SA1 (the best 3D Sonic game), Hero's engine plus Flynn's writing can provide that.

On the one hand I do think that looks pretty good. On the other please don't say "We" like that. Some of us like the "Garbage" Boost Engine.

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

If we want Flynn4Sonic, we also want Hero4Sonic (the 3D Taxman) (logically). Use these two hashtags together because we don't only want a great  story, but also a great Adventure-style gameplay!

Do we really want a great story with worthless boost gameplay? A gameplay that is good for nothing? No, so we also need #Hero4Sonic (here's his 3D engine video:

We don't want Flynn associated with garbage boost2win pseudo-gameplay! We want Flynn associated with great Adventure-style gameplay because he's above games where stories depend on levels!!

I like to imagine having a game better than SA1 (the best 3D Sonic game), Hero's engine plus Flynn's writing can provide that.

If these fan engine makers want to work for SEGA they can develop a repertoire and approach them themselves. Taxman didn't make those remakes because of a Twitter hashtag.

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Finally got around to reading issue 6.

Let me just say, I kind of saw it coming. A little disappointed that this is what it was building up to. It's possible that SEGA was keeping a leash on the team, but it doesn't really excuse the poor execution of the reveal. I won't stop reading the comics because I still enjoy it, but I do hope that the next issues are better than this one (hoping Silver's introduction goes smoothly, or I will be really unhappy, lol).

Also, on the subject of SEGA, please let these writers get creative with these characters; I don't like when Sonic characters come off one-dimensional. I get they're cartoon animal people, but still . . . a little fun needs to be had here. x3;

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2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Oh. I misunderstood the issue numbers, even if my confusion still applied.

I will say that while I still liked Issue 3 as sort of expected, it was still somewhere between okay and good-ish. Primarily because, as lax mentioned, it indeed felt a tad rushed and like it needed another 2 pages to make satisfactory use of what it had to work with. 

By contrast, Issue 4 was actually a contender for weakest issue before 6 came out, notable since it's probably the only issue I recall only reading(or rather skimming) once and never touched again as of recent(though it's timing was probably a minor factor in that).

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

Hey, glad to clarify. 

And on the difference in our opinions, where as 4 is the least revisited by you it is actually the second most for me after issue 2. To an extent I wonder if part of that has more to do with 2 and 4 exceeding my expectations whereas 3 and 6 came up short. Always fun how our expectations can paint very different reactions to what we are presented.

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3 hours ago, BlossomHaze said:

 It's possible that SEGA was keeping a leash on the team,

Also, on the subject of SEGA, please let these writers get creative with these characters; I don't like when Sonic characters come off one-dimensional. I get they're cartoon animal people, but still . . . a little fun needs to be had here. x3;

That's something I've been quietly concerned about as well.

And I'm not really one of those fans who are visceral about mandates.

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

And on the difference in our opinions, where as 4 is the least revisited by you it is actually the second most for me after issue 2. To an extent I wonder if part of that has more to do with 2 and 4 exceeding my expectations whereas 3 and 6 came up short. Always fun how our expectations can paint very different reactions to what we are presented.

More than likely the case.

Oh, and yes, Issue 2 may be the second most read for me too. Partly because it went a step beyond and ended up being the best one so far.

To be fair, I've only really reread IDW issues within the month/week they came out, so it was only really notable by comparison. I've considered changing that overall since I asked my ranking question.

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4 hours ago, BlossomHaze said:

Finally got around to reading issue 6.

Let me just say, I kind of saw it coming. A little disappointed that this is what it was building up to. It's possible that SEGA was keeping a leash on the team, but it doesn't really excuse the poor execution of the reveal. I won't stop reading the comics because I still enjoy it, but I do hope that the next issues are better than this one (hoping Silver's introduction goes smoothly, or I will be really unhappy, lol).

Also, on the subject of SEGA, please let these writers get creative with these characters; I don't like when Sonic characters come off one-dimensional. I get they're cartoon animal people, but still . . . a little fun needs to be had here. x3;

Ian said that there's more to it than meets the eye in a tweet that was already posted here, and we shouldn't take the ending of 6 at face value.  Also, I think SEGA is being looser here in terms of characters, as it introduces more moral conflicts and the characters are becoming less one dimensional as time goes on. However, it might be a bit before they go into actual character development, because they need to set up more of an actual conflict. They also let Ian rerail characters like Tails and while it isn't perfect, I feel as if it's starting to form into its own thing, sort of like Archie Sonic did. I do imagine it will be much shorter to get to that point, though.

9 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

I hope we see Super Sonic at the end of year 1!!

I doubt it. We'll most likely see him when a milestone issue happens, like issue 15 or 25 or somewhere around that.

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4 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Ian said that there's more to it than meets the eye in a tweet that was already posted here, and we shouldn't take the ending of 6 at face value.  Also, I think SEGA is being looser here in terms of characters, as it introduces more moral conflicts and the characters are becoming less one dimensional as time goes on. However, it might be a bit before they go into actual character development, because they need to set up more of an actual conflict. They also let Ian rerail characters like Tails and while it isn't perfect, I feel as if it's starting to form into its own thing, sort of like Archie Sonic did. I do imagine it will be much shorter to get to that point, though.

Oh, that makes sense then. I've been on and off the internet for a week (vacation, yay!) so I may have missed a whole lot. Like I said, I'm not gonna stop reading the comic; I looked forward to it since the cancellation of Archie. The ending just made me scratch my head is all. Though, that was probably the point!

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