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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

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I'm not sure that "no new character" will solve everyone problem. New character are also a way to build interest/curiosity (for instance what Tangle and Whisper did) and engagement in the community. It's something that can make the comic more exciting, by giving some new toys. How even a *background character* of all thing got fans show for me that having no new character would be a pretty bad thing.

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7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Or they could just share like they did back in Archie.

Honestly, this is the part that really gets me: why is it always seen as them competing with the game cast whenever they’re present? Especially when in actuality, they’re not? It doesn’t have to be, nor is it, a competition—that’s not how writing a good story works. 

Even with the comic and cartoon characters in Archie, the game cast have had plenty of focus, often alongside them. You can even see that in the way the FF are grouped: Sonic, Tails, Amy, Cream, and even Big as the game members with Sally, Rotor, Antoine, and Bunnie as the non-game cast—if we excluded Big, that’s a pretty even split, one that the game cast ends up with a slight majority if Big was recognized.

So this idea of them having to compete really doesn’t make sense to me. 

I'm not sure what about this doesn't make sense. There's only so many pages per comic, only so many comics per year; if you go from a main cast that's 95% drawn from the games to a more equal balance of game and Archie characters, then the game characters must get proportionally less focus than before.

This isn't even about some kind of anti-Archie bias, I already feel like the comic has been hampering its startup because it's in such a rush to introduce as many characters as possible instead of introducing a few core characters and giving them some time to breathe.

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9 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

Even with the comic and cartoon characters in Archie, the game cast have had plenty of focus, often alongside them. You can even see that in the way the FF are grouped: Sonic, Tails, Amy, Cream, and even Big as the game members with Sally, Rotor, Antoine, and Bunnie as the non-game cast—if we excluded Big, that’s a pretty even split, one that the game cast ends up with a slight majority if Big was recognized.

Not to mention the implication that they work together on a very occasional basis, hence many game, cartoon, and other events happening without the Freedom Fighters.

The Shattered World Crisis just happened to start at a time where Rotor asked Tails to help him out with constructing the Sky Patrol in the Mystic Ruins and involved stakes requiring them to fly around together to restore the world as efficiently as possible. 

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not sure what about this doesn't make sense. There's only so many pages per comic, only so many comics per year; if you go from a main cast that's 95% drawn from the games to a more equal balance of game and Archie characters, then the game characters must get proportionally less focus than before.

Then divide them into arcs, plan accordingly for which characters could be present and add to the story, and give the focus to which ever character is decided to be one of the focal characters of said story.

Ya know, the very process that goes into making such stories? It’s also the very thing Archie Sonic did with its massive cast despite those not fond of it like to believe, and practically how the comic team for it (and likely IDW since the transfer) have balanced things.

That is why this whole “they’re competing with the game cast” doesn’t make sense. Most of the time the game cast is right there with the non-game cast in the thick of the plot—sometimes they take an even share, sometimes they take more, and sometimes they take less. But it was never a competition in the first place.

 

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This isn't even about some kind of anti-Archie bias,

Yeah, I’m not buying that at this point.

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I already feel like the comic has been hampering its startup because it's in such a rush to introduce as many characters as possible instead of introducing a few core characters and giving them some time to breathe.

They’ve barely even introduced that many characters up until now, and even then the cast size in each issue hasn’t been that large. The most major character in a single issue had was seven, and even adding up all of them, they’re barely even in the two digit mark of characters.

Nevermind that no one here is asking for them to straight up swarm the comic with a boatload of characters in the first place than they are wanting to know if they’ll ever see their personal favorites at any point at all.

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2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Then divide them into arcs, plan accordingly for which characters could be present and add to the story, and give the focus to which ever character is decided to be one of the focal characters of said story.

This doesn't actually change the math involved. If they added the Freedom Fighters, then any time spent on an arc about Sally or Rotor or whoever is time that's not being spent on a game character. You can't just plan your way out of that.

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, I don’t buy it.

I'm pretty sure I've made several complaints in this thread about the character bloat in the comic completely independent of anything to do with the Archie characters, but if you're going to deliberately try to poison the discussion by assuming ulterior motives there's not really anything I can do to stop you.

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

They’ve barely even introduced that many characters up until now,

Every issue has (re)introduced at least one character, often more. Issue 1, Sonic and Tails. Issue 2, Amy, issue 3, Knuckles, Rough, and Tumble, issue 4, Blaze and Tangle, issue 5, the Chaotix and Eggman, issue 6, Shadow and Rouge, issue 7, Metal Sonic, and we've got Whisper, Silver, Cream, and Omega on the way. The only reason I feel I know anything aside from the most basic information about any of these characters is that I'm already a fan of the series and thus have outside knowledge on the ones that aren't IDW-exclusive. If I was new to all this I don't even know what I'd think of this clusterfuck of characters and old references.

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45 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

This doesn't actually change the math involved. If they added the Freedom Fighters, then any time spent on an arc about Sally or Rotor or whoever is time that's not being spent on a game character. You can't just plan your way out of that.

I really don’t see how an arc that focuses on Sally or Rotor more is automatically a bad thing just because a game character took a backseat for it beyond the sheer dislike of the character when those same characters can then either take a backseat or be absent later on in the next arc for a game character to take spotlight.

But I guess that’s how it is when you’re against sharing.

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I'm pretty sure I've made several complaints in this thread about the character bloat in the comic completely independent of anything to do with the Archie characters, but if you're going to deliberately try to poison the discussion by assuming ulterior motives there's not really anything I can do to stop you.

Oh yes, you have. But you’ve done just as much toward the Archie characters as well, and it doesn’t really matter either way it goes. But if being suspicious and cautious about that is poisoning the discussion to you, then so be it.

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Every issue has (re)introduced at least one character, often more. Issue 1, Sonic and Tails. Issue 2, Amy, issue 3, Knuckles, Rough, and Tumble, issue 4, Blaze and Tangle, issue 5, the Chaotix and Eggman, issue 6, Shadow and Rouge, issue 7, Metal Sonic, and we've got Whisper, Silver, Cream, and Omega on the way.

So barely into the double digits like I said. 15 characters after 7 issues, with four more coming up later.

Believe it or not, that’s not a big number.

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The only reason I feel I know anything aside from the most basic information about any of these characters is that I'm already a fan of the series and thus have outside knowledge on the ones that aren't IDW-exclusive. If I was new to all this I don't even know what I'd think of this clusterfuck of characters and old references.

I don’t think a newbie would have anywhere near the problems you’re projecting if they were interested in Sonic. If anything, they’d have been introduced more from either the games or cartoons before reading the comic.

But even considering that they start with the comics, it would hardly be any more of a clusterfuck than a new fan getting into a DC or Marvel comic—if they’re interested they’ll read more and delve further into the series, if not, they’ll put it down and move on.

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I prefer to have new characters. For each characters we don't have, we get a brand new character.

I know we'll not see the FF, nor Mighty or Ray. But instead we get Tangle, Whisper and other interesting characters in the future THAT FIT WELL in the Sonic universe because the team does effort to make these new characters as Sonic-y as possible as if they could fit in a game be it in the name choice or the role or the abilities. (Tangle's tail abilities, Whisper's multi-use wispon...).

It's great for game fans like me.

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3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I really don’t see how an arc that focuses on Sally or Rotor more is automatically a bad thing

It's not, if you care about those characters. If you don't care about those characters, you likely won't care about the arc.

This is kind of the essence of the problem, here.

3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But I guess that’s how it is when you’re against sharing.

Boy you sure are a swell guy, huh. I don't instantly kowtow to your desires and that means I'm "against sharing".

3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

So barely into the double digits like I said. 15 characters after 7 issues, with four more coming up later.

Believe it or not, that’s not a big number.

It is compared to actually good comics that I've read.

3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I don’t think a newbie would have anywhere near the problems you’re projecting if they were interested in Sonic. If anything, they’d have been introduced more from either the games or cartoons before reading the comic.

Dude I was talking about being a newbie to Sonic. I didn't think I had to specify because everyone is a newbie to IDW Sonic because IDW Sonic itself is new.

3 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But even considering that they start with the comics, it would hardly be any more of a clusterfuck than a new fan getting into a DC or Marvel comic

Aren't a lot of long-running Western comics notoriously hard for new readers to get into?

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

It's not, if you care about those characters. If you don't care about those characters, you likely won't care about the arc.

This is kind of the essence of the problem, here.

Well if you’re so deadset against these characters appearing in any form or any spotlight, here’s a very easy solution to that: don’t buy the issue. Wait for one with characters you do care about instead.

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Boy you sure are a swell guy, huh. I don't instantly kowtow to your desires and that means I'm "against sharing".

More like, I present a compromise and you’d rather the whole thing be monopolize for yourself.

It amazes me how you resort to antagonizing like this when criticized anytime the idea of something you dislike is brought up. Whether you kowtow to my desires or not, I couldn’t really care any less, but here’s a news flash: at the end of the day you’re not the only one reading these comic with certain characters they care about.

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It is compared to actually good comics that I've read.

I can find some pretty good comics that aren’t that different. Cast size isn’t a black and white deal toward quality.

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Dude I was talking about being a newbie to Sonic. I didn't think I had to specify because everyone is a newbie to IDW Sonic because IDW Sonic itself is new.

Aren't a lot of long-running Western comics notoriously hard for new readers to get into?

Could’ve sworn I was taking about newbies to Sonic too when I made that comparison of them getting into DC or Marvel comics.

Don’t know how hard it is for new readers to get into western comics, but I’d assume it wouldn’t be any different to a new fan getting into a long running franchise in general.

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1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

It amazes me how you resort to antagonizing like this

Are you shitting me? I try to explain to you a simple concept, you treat me like dirt, and somehow I'm the asshole here for pointing it out?

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I agree with all of the points Diogenes brings up about how the comic has been structured so far. I don't agree about the non-game character thing, but I want to see the likes of Sally and Tangle so I think we just have different wants in that regard.

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, I’m not buying that at this point.

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But I guess that’s how it is when you’re against sharing.

Oh yes, you have. But you’ve done just as much toward the Archie characters as well, and it doesn’t really matter either way it goes. But if being suspicious and cautious about that is poisoning the discussion to you, then so be it.

21 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

It amazes me how you resort to antagonizing like this when criticized anytime the idea of something you dislike is brought up.

Are you fucking serious?

I'm tempted to just leave it at that but apparently I need to spell this out to you: someone who has different opinions on Sonic the Hedgehog is not inherently your enemy, nor do they have to bow to everything you say ("compromise" as you call it).

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46 minutes ago, Celestia said:

Are you fucking serious?

I'm tempted to just leave it at that but apparently I need to spell this out to you: someone who has different opinions on Sonic the Hedgehog is not inherently your enemy, nor do they have to bow to everything you say ("compromise" as you call it).

I wasn’t making them my enemy and I wasn’t saying they should bow to everything I say. Where did that last part even come from?

They can have differing opinions, and I know perfectly well what they are. But I’m not in any position to trust someone if I find what they’re saying suspect or inconsistent with what they’re telling me—just because I make that case doesn’t mean I’m treating them like dirt. So yes, I’m serious.

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13 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

You don't remember seeing them because they were never there. They were briefly mentioned by Kukku XV once. 

Ah, no wonder. Hopefully IDW use them every now and then.

 

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44 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I wasn’t making them my enemy and I wasn’t saying they should bow to everything I say. Where did that last part even come from?

They can have differing opinions, and I know perfectly well what they are. But I’m not in any position to trust someone when if I find what they’re saying suspect—just because I make that case doesn’t mean I’m treating them like dirt. So yes, I’m serious.

As a moderator, someone who views you as a friend, and perhaps more importantly, someone who's gotten on Diogenes's case for stupid shit like this when in hindsight I shouldn't have, I don't think you're getting Celestia's post at all.

You're accusing someone of antagonistic behavior but... have you read the posts Celestia brought up? I'm reading them and I'm finding this sort of thing embarrassing and disappointing, honestly. You took Diogenes's original argument:

5 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not sure what about this doesn't make sense. There's only so many pages per comic, only so many comics per year; if you go from a main cast that's 95% drawn from the games to a more equal balance of game and Archie characters, then the game characters must get proportionally less focus than before.

This isn't even about some kind of anti-Archie bias, I already feel like the comic has been hampering its startup because it's in such a rush to introduce as many characters as possible instead of introducing a few core characters and giving them some time to breathe.

And reacted like this:

3 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Yeah, I’m not buying that at this point.

Then you continued to spin it into something else

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

More like, I present a compromise and you’d rather the whole thing be monopolize for yourself.

It amazes me how you resort to antagonizing like this when criticized anytime the idea of something you dislike is brought up.

 

I don't even agree with Diogenes entirely, but, and I say this from experience, you're making this extremely personal and it's fucking tiring (as someone who's viewed this from multiple angles and also as a very, very burned out fan) that any discussion about characters at this point continues to be such a shitshow in this community. If you want to compromise then try it without the personal attacks and passive-aggressive remarks sprinkled throughout your posts.This is the only warning you're getting at this point, and this extends to everyone else posting in here.

With that, this topic is getting re-railed and other posts of this nature will be deleted and/or subject to moderator action, so let's chill. If there are any questions or disagreements about what I've written, settle it up in a PM.

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Finally got around to reading Issue 7, and I've honestly gotta say...it was somewhat meh. 

Spoiler

Firstly, I will say this. I like having Metal Sonic back, I think it's cool that he's in his Neo form, I think it's even cooler that Ian used the concept to explain perfectly why Metal was a illusion in Forces (the real version being away getting upgraded to act as Eggman's enforcer). The art on top of everything else is absolutely fantastic. Some of the best yet, especially with some of the art being somewhat off in earlier issues. This is one of the best drawn issues IMO.

But that said, the issue felt honestly pretty boring for what was meant to be the turning point for the arc at large. The most obvious reveal turned out to be true, the one that literally everyone was guessing since we found out it wasn't Eggman. Sonic is the only one who gets any real screentime, which I guess is fine, but leaves him without anyone to really bounce off of, other than Metal Sonic. But the thing I somewhat dislike is that the issue itself basically amounted to nothing but exposition, and filler. Sonic doesn't achieve his goal at figuring out Metal's plan, the only thing he solidly gets is Metal is the mastermind behind it all. Metal finds out Eggman is alive but ultimately doesn't get information out of Sonic, Sonic gets out from Eggman's fleet with no serious issue while the fleet itself hasn't suffered much damage. Like literally the entire issue could amount to simply revealing our mystery villain is Metal Sonic and this is why he's here. The action was pretty cool, as was the art, but the story itself was ultimately lacking and just felt like an excuse to set up the next major arc where Metal attempts to invade Angel Island. This was seriously disappointing considering this seemed like it was meant to be a huge turning point, to the point the main cover got a special reflective logo and higher quality paper/covers. 

Once again, it just feels like IDW is still taking forever to find it's footing, beyond a few unique and cool ideas.

 

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As year one seems to finish with Battle for Angel Island (if it's a 4-part partner), I don't think we will see the Babylon Rogues Year 1. They'll come later.

3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

other interesting characters in the future THAT FIT WELL in the Sonic universe because the team does effort to make these new characters as Sonic-y as possible as if they could fit in a game be it in the name choice or the role or the abilities. (Tangle's tail abilities, Whisper's multi-use wispon...).

That's not something new, they followed the same rules than the game character in the Post-SGW timeline too. But those rules aren't as set in stone as one could think.

- First, for some character have the "themed" part in their surname and not as their first name. The biggest exemple is Amy Rose, which is kinda an important character, I think. In Post-SGW we got characters like Trevor Burrow (even Sally Acorn fit in, as chipmunk eat acorns, but it's basically a nice coincidence. In the FF the only one that didn't have a Sonic-like theme was Antoine D'Coolete. Except if we count having the same name as me as having a Sonic-like theme lol). Some background character have real name in Sonic though, for instance (and mostly) in Sonic Rush Adventure, like Norman, or character like that. And Tails' real name is "Miles Prower", so there is place for Name-Surname structure. They just have to not use it too much, like they did in the second Archie continuity.

- Some character doesn't have a "gameplay" and are made for story reason. Vanilla is the best exemple of it in game and Breezie the Hedgehog Post-SGW, who were mostly story-driven and didn't have some kind of "gameplay"/"gimmick". The "theme" is mostly for the most important character, but a story doesn't contain only those. Especially in a comic-book, because it's a different media than a game.

So I think that with time, the way they do character will be basically like Post-SGW but with less character, because they didn't really change the way they are making (or transforming in the case of the Post-SGW timeline) character (not surprising as it's the same person that create the characters xD Sadly except Aleah Baker, who was really great in Post-SGW). They still try to take some new animals when they can (Skunk or Lemur ; a lot of character in Post-SGW), they still try to make "Sonic-like" character, they still have some interesting idea… So I think that they will also break the rule when it'll be interesting, I think.

So I think that creating character that "fit in the game" shouldn't be too extreme, because even in the game they aren't as much consistent. And tbh, I've trouble to find a character post-SGW that wouldn't fit in the game for me (as a secondary character when they couldn't be main characters), except maybe trolls like Wendy and Walter Naugus (and even that for me isn't that bizarre if we take stuff like the different aliens we got in Sonic games - counting Chronicles, and they were well integrated to the Sonic lore with ideas like Pandorica or the "Second Great Civilization").

So, I think that they won't have trouble making character that fit, but I hope (and think) it'll become more diverse and not restricted to these kind of name and ability.

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One thing I can see being done with new characters is to make them be a sort of support cast for certain game characters within their respective environments. One example could be within GUN where there would be extra characters that interact with Rouge, Shadow and Omega, which not only would help show more facets of these game characters as they interact with their support cast, but also gives the feel that they have their own world and don't always have to gravitate around the events in which Sonic is involved.

Though for something like this, the current IDW book would need a sister publication similar to how the Archie comic had the Universe comic book to supplement it and give space for side characters to shine.

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That’s if GUN is still in this one given that it takes more after Forces. One reason why I can’t stand the Two Worlds thing being involved here because it murks up the whole setting.

I’m more curious as to how Ian will handled that part if we were to see a support cast like that.

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