Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

Chronicles is the clearest on the subject, as it explicitly shows that Green Hill exists in the same world as Central City, Station Square, the Mystic Ruins, Angel Island, and Emerald Town. Furthermore, Angel Island's disappearance from it's usual spot over the Mystic Ruins is a major plot point in that game, indicating the island is not mobile under normal circumstances.

Even ignoring that Mania also shows Green Hill (and Chemical Plant) existing  in the a same world as Little Planet, which, per the Japanese version of Adventure, is on Earth. If we extrapolate from there we can see that Forces is, in fact, also set on Earth, just in a region mainly populated with anthros, which is not unprecedented (see the Knuckles Tribe and the Babylonians).

Indeed, if you look at it logically the only games which could conceivably be set on a "Sonic's World" are Advance 2 and Free Riders, everything else has some element which, directly or indirectly, places it on Earth or is explicitly set on another planet/dimension.

Not even Advance 2, Sky Canyon is on Angel Island.

[PublicEnemy1]

1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

Chronicles isn't canon

I don't think it was confirmed non-canon.

[Your Vest Friend]

1 hour ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

I don't think it was confirmed non-canon.

It was confirmed non-canon a long time ago. 

[Marco9966]

2 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

It was confirmed non-canon a long time ago. 

Which is a shame because this game did more worldbuilding than any other game, it did it post-SGW level I should say.

[Bowbowis]

2 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Chronicles isn't canon, and even have a problem when implying that Angel Island is mobile : in S3&K, the island fell in the center of the ocean. It's visible, Sonic even land on the island when it's in the middle of the ocean. So in this case, the problem is more in Sonic Chronicles.

There's no reason Angel Island can't fall into the ocean while staying in the vicinity of the Mystic Ruins, it did just that in SA1.

Regardless, you're missing the larger point:  This isn't the Zelda timeline, where things were clearly always intended to be divided up post-OoT. Trying to divide Sonic games into one of two worlds is an exercise in futility because, whatever Iizuka may say, the evidence overwhelming suggests that, at least before Colors, they were never intended to take place anywhere but the same Earth introduced way back in Sonic 1. Unless Yuji Naka or someone can corroborate Iizuka's claim that this was supposed to be canon since SA1 I'm going to assume he's talking out of his ass like he usually does.

[PublicEnemy1]

15 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

It was confirmed non-canon a long time ago. 

Imma need a source on that. If you are going to make claims like this, I want to see proof. (Last time you claimed that the "Knuckles is the only echidna" mandate was true, I asked for proof and you didn't give me any. Please provide a source when you claim something.)

[Big Panda]

34 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

There's no reason Angel Island can't fall into the ocean while staying in the vicinity of the Mystic Ruins, it did just that in SA1.

Wasn’t the idea that it was falling back into the very same spot it lifted off from in ancient times?

[Marco9966]

Just now, Ernest-Panda said:

Wasn’t the idea that it was falling back into the very same spot it lifted off from in ancient times?

Yeah that spot is just ocean, near a piece of land that remained on ground!

[Kazhnuz]

58 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

There's no reason Angel Island can't fall into the ocean while staying in the vicinity of the Mystic Ruins, it did just that in SA1. 

Regardless, you're missing the larger point:  This isn't the Zelda timeline, where things were clearly always intended to be divided up post-OoT. Trying to divide Sonic games into one of two worlds is an exercise in futility because, whatever Iizuka may say, the evidence overwhelming suggests that, at least before Colors, they were never intended to take place anywhere but the same Earth introduced way back in Sonic 1. Unless Yuji Naka or someone can corroborate Iizuka's claim that this was supposed to be canon since SA1 I'm going to assume he's talking out of his ass like he usually does. 

Well, it's pretty visible and assumed that it is in the middle of the ocean in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Or it's just another incoherence between S3&K and Sonic Adventure, it wouldn't be the first one.

Sonic isn't even really meant to have a "world". They never cared about that. The geography change each time, they decide what was canon when they want it, they totally rewrote some character (the Chaotix) when they re-introduced them, they even did two time the "let's make Shadow evolve post-SA2" with Battle and Shadow… (well, for their defense, one was done by ST Japan, the other by ST USA). So for me it's a moot point to try to understand what was they thinking at this time, when they didn't care about the world and just wanted to do their stuff (And trying to get "how it worked" just create a headcanon, and won't give us what they were thinking about the world, as there is too much incoherence between games). The only real "coherence" we ever had was in some saga done by the same author.

The fact it that for the moment, it's what they are doing, and what seems to be affecting the saga (Sonic Forces even did some things like the "different letters" thing for that). Maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't. Personally, now that they have said that I would prefer if they committed to it (instead of changing their mind every game). For the moment, they seems to have been able to not made something totally illogical with what they said, which is at least something for them. So I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, for the moment (until the first illogical thing they'll do next)

And Yuji Naka isn''t really more pertinent than Iizuka in this case : during the Adventure Era, Iizuka was the director (and the origin of several ideas of the games) of a lot of games, and he even wrote some of them (even if they weren't the best of literature, it show that he was involved in that). Naka was mostly a programmer. (And Iizuka never have claimed that it was canon since SA1, Flynn assumed it was like that. )

[Marco9966]

15 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Well, it's pretty visible and assumed that it is in the middle of the ocean in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Or it's just another incoherence between S3&K and Sonic Adventure, it wouldn't be the first one.

Sonic isn't even really meant to have a "world". They never cared about that. The geography change each time, they decide what was canon when they want it, they totally rewrote some character (the Chaotix) when they re-introduced them, they even did two time the "let's make Shadow evolve post-SA2" with Battle and Shadow… (well, for their defense, one was done by ST Japan, the other by ST USA). So for me it's a moot point to try to understand what was they thinking at this time, when they didn't care about the world and just wanted to do their stuff (And trying to get "how it worked" just create a headcanon, and won't give us what they were thinking about the world, as there is too much incoherence between games). The only real "coherence" we ever had was in some saga done by the same author.

The fact it that for the moment, it's what they are doing, and what seems to be affecting the saga (Sonic Forces even did some things like the "different letters" thing for that). Maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't. Personally, now that they have said that I would prefer if they committed to it (instead of changing their mind every game). For the moment, they seems to have been able to not made something totally illogical with what they said, which is at least something for them. So I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, for the moment (until the first illogical thing they'll do next)

And Yuji Naka isn''t really more pertinent than Iizuka in this case : during the Adventure Era, Iizuka was the director (and the origin of several ideas of the games) of a lot of games, and he even wrote some of them (even if they weren't the best of literature, it show that he was involved in that). Naka was mostly a programmer. (And Iizuka never have claimed that it was canon since SA1, Flynn assumed it was like that. )

In Team Sonic racing they will never address the two world as we will jump from Ice Cap to Spagonia. The only world that is separate is planet Wisp.

[Kazhnuz]

I'm not sure that they'll address why they are going to Planet Wisp either It's a racing game, they won't care very much about world and stuff like that. And if the comic solicitation say anything about the plot of Team Sonic Racing (as IIRC it's supposed to be a prequel), it seems to happen in a different world, so I wouldn't bet on anything about that game yet xD

 

( And maybe we should move this discussion to the right topic xD )

I wonder if the IDW prequel to TSR will be canon to the game like the Sonic Forces comic-book. (I think it'll mostly "not matter" xD)

[Your Vest Friend]

3 hours ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Imma need a source on that. If you are going to make claims like this, I want to see proof. (Last time you claimed that the "Knuckles is the only echidna" mandate was true, I asked for proof and you didn't give me any. Please provide a source when you claim something.)

The Knuckles mandate was Ian literally saying that it was there, around the time of Sonic Universe 63.

The SEGA community manager outright said Chronicles was non-canon in 2010 (on places like the SEGA forum and...here). Nothing has contradicted that in the time since. 

[Kuzu]

They don't even reference  Chronicles at all in any sort of media iirc.

[Shadowlax]

Is it being non canon that hard to believe? Along with various legal issues, it never being referenced , and outright statements. Its a game that didn't do that well, that wasn't very good not made by sega. 

Why wouldn't they dismiss it? They have no reason to care about that game anymore , I doubt anyone there is interested in any of the concepts or characterizations for any of that to translate over to anywhere. They are quick to dismiss shit in their own game, someone else? That seems like a fairly easy dismissal besides, monetary investment. And given that was a small rpg title for the DS from almost a decade ago, we are far past the point of that mattering fiscally

 

[Nestor]

7 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Chronicles is the clearest on the subject, as it explicitly shows that Green Hill exists in the same world as Central City, Station Square, the Mystic Ruins, Angel Island, and Emerald Town.

Ah... Chronicles might not be the best source to use for determining Green Hill's location - as well as being non-canon as the others have pointed out, it has a slightly... odd setup with its locations in respect to canon. Central City, the capital of the United Federation (which is clearly supposed to be the Sonic universe's alt-counterpart of the United States), is placed on South Island rather than the North America analogue and aesthetically looks more like a town in Sonic Forces; Station Square meanwhile, which was in SA1 a huge metropolis on a warm seafront (and presumably also in the United Federation) is now a village at the foot of snowy mountains on Westside Island.

Combined with the legal issues surrounding it and no further statement that it's regained canon status since the initial statement regarding it, I think it's safe to say that it's setup isn't one that Sonic Team has ever seriously considered.

 

7 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Furthermore, Angel Island's disappearance from it's usual spot over the Mystic Ruins is a major plot point in that game, indicating the island is not mobile under normal circumstances.

....

There's no reason Angel Island can't fall into the ocean while staying in the vicinity of the Mystic Ruins, it did just that in SA1.

In S&K, Angel Island really is nowhere near the coastline as it was in SA1; when we see the island from afar in the cutscenes, it's completely surrounded by water on every side with the mainland nowhere in sight. In order for that to be possible, the island does need to be able to be mobile.

 

7 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Even ignoring that Mania also shows Green Hill (and Chemical Plant) existing  in the a same world as Little Planet, which, per the Japanese version of Adventure, is on Earth. If we extrapolate from there we can see that Forces is, in fact, also set on Earth, just in a region mainly populated with anthros, which is not unprecedented (see the Knuckles Tribe and the Babylonians).

While clunky, it's not inconceivable that the kid could be talking about Sonic's world (he doesn't say which world, after all).... though that's admittedly not the most intuitive reading as the dialogue was obviously made before the two worlds retcon existed and it would have to be a retroactive interpretation.

Forces meanwhile is quite difficult to reconcile as being on Earth as there are multiple references to Eggman having conquered the entire planet, and the absence of any human influence or presence (most notably GUN) in that scenario would be very strange and not really explainable in the same way that, say, their absence in Unleashed was (one assumes GUN's attention and resources were stretched thin across the globe trying to cope with the massive chaos that the planet breaking apart would entail for international infrastructure).

Bearing in mind that Sonic Team seems bent on going all in with the two world concept (albeit in their haphazard way) to the point that they've asked IDW to adhere to this scenario, I think that the set up in Forces would hold more weight than a single piece of dialogue only appearing in one version of one game and potentially open to an (admittedly strained) alternate interpretation.

 

4 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

Unless Yuji Naka or someone can corroborate Iizuka's claim that this was supposed to be canon since SA1 I'm going to assume he's talking out of his ass like he usually does.

As you say, the two worlds thing is most certainly a retcon after the Adventure era; while it's possible the idea might have been buzzing around somewhere during that time period (I'd put money on Sonic X being an inspiration), it wasn't being implemented and the games at that time were obviously supposed to take place in a singular (and poorly defined) world.

[Razule]

Has Whisper ever considered buying glasses?

[Sega DogTagz]

I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the new series has been the constant barrage of 1 parters - from an art perspective anyway.

 

I think the insistence of switching artists on each issue really shows the disparity of quality in the different members of the art team in a way that the traditional Archie 4-parters kind of covered up. Artists were allowed to hit their stride over the course of a couple of issues working with the same handful of characters, and we weren't constantly barraged with differing art styles.

 

I'd like to see a return of manned arcs if only to let the artist focus on a core set of characters for a handful of issues to bring the quality up across the board. Its been a jarring ride so far - and thats not something I'm used to seeing out of some of the same artist that did fine work over at Archie.

 

 

Other than that complaint, the new series looks off to a good start. I'd fully support a second book.

[StaticMania]

Yeah, changing artists every issue is kinda jarring...

When Cartoons do it, it tends not to be as weird...though you tend to notice.

[MetalSkulkBane]

When you can say you're successful in internet? When other people post links to your work, and you don't have to do this

Yesterday Roger from Dissected talked about IDW.

Long story short he praised thing we all did (artwork, characterization, lore usage) while questioning same thing I did (simple stories, just bashing badniks and that "it'll get better later" is questionable argument). He also made a point that reveal of Metal Sonic doesn't means much, since plot doesn't changes in anyway. Eggman, Nega, Metal, Coconuts, whoever it is Sonic still has to punch his badniks. I kinda see his point.

But what really interested me is point that "everyone is for punching. If you haven't watched the video, here are his arguments

Spoiler

He compared it to Satam. Sonic for action, Sally was for sneaking, Antoine for messing things up. Everyone had his own skills that forced tactics, different usage, etc. In IDW (rather games overall) everyone is a 'puncher", any team up doesn't forces new strategies, just different flashy combos.

Especially he pointed that to Tangle, new character who's whole role is punching badniks in new way.

What you guys think about that?

I mean, sure. Sonic has few "not-punhcers", Games have Vanilla or Marine (barely exist), Preboot had all the parent figures (but even Elias or Mina had some fighting skills) and Reboot was probably the closest to having proper "not punchers". Coral, Relic, princess Undina, Ellidy, Breezie, etc. Best example would be Gold and Shlemmer who actually contributed to fighting the villains, with no fighting on their part (but this wasn't written by Flynn, soooo,,,,) So maybe IDW just needs few more issues to introduce few essential not-fighters.

And look at Freedom Fighters themselves. In Archie they they stareted similar to Satam, but as time went Antoine and Tails become competent fighter, while Rotor retired (until Flynn put him in a suit, arming him). So for decent amount of time Sally was the only non-fighter central character. I think it worked, but I kinda see why Flynn weaponized her in Reboot.

in the end I would say that Satam/early-Archie was closer to Ducktales or Gravity Falls where fighting was secondary to overall adventure. IDW/games/late-Archie are closer to Marvel/DC or most Video Games, where you MUST be able to fight to be a central character.

(I wonder if it could been minimized with creative challenges. Bomb to disable, death trap to escape, something like this)

[Your Vest Friend]

I mean, I do think he has a point, but probably one that isn't that avoidable because SEGA themselves are having input on what should be done with the book and who should be central characters. 

[Multikaris]

4 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

When you can say you're succesful in internet? When other people post links to your work, and you don't ahve to do this

Yesterday Roger from Dissected talked about IDW.

Long story short he praised thing we all did (artowork, characterisation, lore usage) while questioning thing guys like I did (simple stories, just bashing badniks and that "it'll get better later" is questionable argument). He also made a point that reveal of Metal Sonic doesn't means much, since plot doesn't changes in anyway. Eggman, Nega, Metal, Coconuts, whoever it is Sonic still has to punch his badniks. I kinda see his point.

But what really intersted me is point that "everyone is for punching. If you haven't watched the video, here are his arguments

  Reveal hidden contents

He compared it to Satam. Sonic for action, Sally was for sneaking, Antoine for messing things up. Everyone had his own skills that forced tactics, different usage, etc. In IDW (rather games overall) everyone is a 'puncher", any team up doesn't forces new strategies, just different flashy combos.

Especially he pointed that to Tangle, new character who's whole role is punching badniks in new way.

What you guys think about that?

I mean, sure. Sonic has few "not-punhcers", Games have Vanilla or Marine (barely exist), Preboot had all the parent figures (but even Elias or Mina had some fighting skills) and Reboot was probably the closest to having proper "not punchers". Coral, Relic, princess Undina, Ellidy, Breezie, etc. Best example would be Gold and Shlemmer who actually contributed to fighting the villains, with no fighting on their part (but this wasn't written by Flynn, soooo,,,,) So maybe IDW just needs few more issues to introduce few essential not-fighters.

And look at Freedom Fighters themself. In Archie they they stareted similar to Satam, but as time went Antoine and Tails become competent fighter, while Rotor retired (until Flynn put him in a suit, arming him). So for decent amount of time Sally was the only non-fighter central character. I think it worked, but I kinda see why Flynn weaponized her in Reboot.

in the end I would say that Satam/early-Archie was closer to Ducktales or Gravity Falls where fighting was secondary to overall adventure. IDW/games/late-Archie are closer to Marvel/DC or most Video Games, where you MUST be able to fight to be a central character.

(I wonder if it could been minimalized with creative challenges. Bomb to dissable, death trap to escape, something like this)

Even Fleetway had Porker and Tekno. Not to mention relatively few of the side and minor non-evil characters were punchers. 

[Marco9966]

When will we finally get proper worldbuilding with new locations's name?

We had a character that is not a fighter that was very involved in issue 5 (the mayor), and we didn't even get his name.

 

[Shadowlax]

I don't think we will get past the " everyone hits " problem until there are 2 or more books in that continuity. A lot of the more popular characters while they do have other traits that would make them invaluable also hit people. And in the case of shadow, those traits will be downplayed because protagonist ( sonic ) isn't equipped to handle thoughts that complicated. 

I feel like we will get more versatile characters and better characters when there is more room to work with. Or at least I hope, anyway. As of currently shit doesn't seem like it matters and everyone hitting everything, so it is what it is 

[RedFox99]

Tbf, you need to remember that this is an action comic, so it's almost a given that the primary focus will be characters hitting robots. Also, didn't Rouge pretty much 

 

tip off Sonic and the Chaotix to Eggman's whereabouts and thereby, helping save his life, without having to fight?

[Kazhnuz]

Even if I agree that they should make less fight-focused the comic-book, by allowing it to breath more, I think that it was mostly the first arc that was too much badnic-brawl heavy. In this perspective I did found the three following issues way better, by having more too it.

But basically, I agree that for me, for the moment it's a weak point of IDWSonic compared to ArchieSonic : there is not a lot going on, and the comic might benefit from major non-fighter character (or half-fighter, a bit like Nigel Acorn that was a non-fighter during most of what we seen, and then after… BOOM energetic sword and shield - okay after that he got wrecked, but it was pretty cool xD) that have other set of skills that can handle other type of situations. I hope it'll get better on this point with time, after year 1. What I miss the most what when he dropped some clues about future arc, like "the trolls of the second civilization".

I also hope (and think, because I still think that most of this is because it's the beginning) that with time, we will get some arc that were more focused about other things, like character-developpement/evolution (a bit like the Bunnie and Tails flashback during post-reboot), discovering a new location with its own small world (like the Meropis arc, I loved this one because it felt a bit like a condensed version of what could be a game story - excluding the tie to Unleashed of course), filler/funny arc (like Champions that was really fun), or half-sequel to some games (like the Eclipse arc).

 

I think that here, Flynn is trying to not repeat the Shattered World Crisis, by having a smaller "first arc" (the fact that it's just a "one-year arc, that it have a smaller plot, no filler, etc…), but a bit too much for me. But it's still enjoyable with me, and I think that it'll get better when Flynn will have a better hand on his new world, new plots, etc. He had for the second time to start anew all his plan, when he used a lot of Sonic idea for the second archie continuity. Here he have to do it differently (two-world and no-classic might help him a bit on making it different than ArchieSonic, but they also give him new constraint), and I think that with time we will get new stuff. Or maybe I'm just wrong and I'm too optimistic, but I'll keep being optimistic. If i remember correctly, he said that he would make more worldbuilding later.

( I hope that Aleah Baker will come back on writing story, too. She was really good at making stories that were different from the basic formula. Same for Evan Stanley and Tracy Yardley, I hope they'll some arc in the future, especially if we get new series for IDWSonic. )