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IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread


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4 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

The Master Emerald alter goes from being within Hidden Palace to out in the darn open, for one thing.

Oh yeah.

I like how Archie preboot basically had Knuxerjak and Super Sonic straight up destroy the cavern it was in, effectively creating Shrine Isle.

5 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

And then there’s the Super Emeralds.

Remind me: were the Super Emeralds separate things or were they simply the Chaos Emerald charged by the Master Emerald?

5 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

And whether or not Angel Island is on one world or the other.

It floats high in the sky. 

If it isn't moving, the Earth's rotation is. Also, Chaos Energy.

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36 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

ShtH and Sonic Battle BOTH happened because Gemerl will appear in IDW.

 

51 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Fine: An alternate version of Battle lacking certain details happened, then Eggman rebuilt what was left of Emerl into Gemerl.

Deal-deal, fifty-Fifty, shut the frikk up.

Or Gemril is just some robot that exists because battle is never referenced. 

The idea that the game had to happen is silly. 

Gemril is never forreal forreal is never referenced again outside of design really, and I think generations. This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened in history. The story the character is from never happened, but the design or the character itself exists. 

It happened in sonic before, or have we forgotten blaze the cat. Its just that blaze, they kind of just changed silvers story in subsequent games. And established the previous story again. But best believe if sonic 06 wasn't a giant embarrassing clusterfuck, blaze would have never had her story established again and much like emril would have originated in non canon orgins. Oh, edit, also the chaotix. 

Battle is literally never referenced again and to quote you real quick

Quote

An alternate version of Battle lacking certain details happened, then Eggman rebuilt what was left of Emerl into Gemerl.

You can't imagine that, this isn't secondary details. Gemril having maria soul is kind of key his entire...everything. So with shadow retconing that detail, the story can't function. Because he would just be a murder bot. 

He's a robot they keep around for sonic channel art and if comic folks want to do stuff with him, but where he came from, has vanished. And to be honest we don't know the comic part, for all we know emril might be some thing Ian later found out he just couldn't use. I mean, I doubt it, but yeah

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1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Or Gemril is just some robot that exists because battle is never referenced. 

The idea that the game had to happen is silly. 

Gemril is never forreal forreal is never referenced again outside of design really, and I think generations. This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened in history. The story the character is from never happened, but the design or the character itself exists.  

It happened in sonic before, or have we forgotten blaze the cat. Its just that blaze, they kind of just changed silvers story in subsequent games. 

Battle is literally never referenced again and to quote you real quick 

You can't imagine that, this isn't secondary details. Gemril having maria soul is kind of key his entire...everything. So with shadow retconing that detail, the story can't function. Because he would just be a murder bot. 

He's a robot they keep around for sonic channel art and if comic folks want to do stuff with him, but where he came from, has vanished

Oh so by your logic SA2 never happened either, because Gerald's message.

It's the full canon, Battle happens after Shth, you either take it or leave it.

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Technically it'd be the games from SA on that contradict 3&K. So no Sonic game has been canon since 1994.

9 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

The Master Emerald alter goes from being within Hidden Palace to out in the darn open, for one thing.

And then there’s the Super Emeralds.

And whether or not Angel Island is on one world or the other.

It's not hard to come up with explanations for these, if you really need them.

There are two altars, the old altar where the chao and Chaos once lived and the altar in the Hidden Palace. Knuckles didn't bother dragging the emerald all the way back to Hidden Palace for whatever reason (s'not like it was a secret anymore).

Super Emeralds aren't canon, or can only manifest in special circumstances that have not since been met.

If people can jump between worlds there's no reason the island can't.

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Just now, Marco9966 said:

Oh so by your logic SA2 never happened either, because Gerald's message.

It happened, but yes they reconnected large parts of it yes. Maria went from someone who shadow might have imagined, to someone shadow hung out with it. Along with various other details. Now you could suggest its not completely a retcon because there might be some textures in SA2 along with some concept art that suggest they wanted to do the alien thing from jump ( and I kinda believe they did ). But none of that is established in the game. 

So yes, future entries into a series may invalidate other entries of a series. ShtH retcons parts of sa2. It does not make it unhappen, because the lessons learned and the entire plot of ShTh does not contradict the previous games plot. It makes it a bit more complicated , but nothing is contradictory.

The soul thing literally contradicts battles plot, and battle is literally never referenced outside of emril's design, and ...yeah that's it. Even basic concepts like rouge having a club is never really referenced again. 

And this isn't new either, sonic team always has weird spin off games and material that isn't canon, but they take one or two elements from they like. In this case, they thought the robot was cool. In sonic X, they thought shadow's inhibitor rings is cool, in the 90's sonic cartoons, they thought the chilidog thing was cool, and hopefully with boom they think sticks is cool. But that's all it is, non canon fun side bullshit. Not everything has to be canon, and it isn't. And its pretty clear it isn't

Just now, Marco9966 said:

It's the full canon, Battle happens after Shth, you either take it or leave it.

No its not because shadow the hedgehog establishes lore and lessons learned that contradict that games plot. 

you can tale it or leave it yourself, or actually try to argue me. But you can't because... I'm actually referencing the plot and you just seem upset

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8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If people can jump between worlds there's no reason the island can't.

I like how Sonic X does it...it's really natural. It just gets warped with everyone else.

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Truth be told, I think Battle's did a slightly better job at resolving Shadow's arc then ShtH (probably because Battle actually has a coherent story) 

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5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

 

It happened in sonic before, or have we forgotten blaze the cat. Its just that blaze, they kind of just changed silvers story in subsequent games. 

 

To be fair, they also neglected to explain what Blaze was doing there in 06, leaving it entirely ambiguous as to how she ended up in Silver's Future and why.

06 rectonning itself basically erased the reasoning and need to explain that outside of a possible new adventure with a similar plot point, in which case it'd be so different as to just be a reference.

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

You can't imagine that, this isn't secondary details. Gemril having maria soul is kind of key his entire...everything. So with shadow retconing that detail, the story can't function. Because he would just be a murder bot. 

...Wait, what?

 

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

in battle they mention maria's soul

...what are you talking about?

The only reference and connection to Maria Emerl has is the password to prevent Emerl from going into berserk mode, which is a direct quote she says in Sonic Adventure 2.

"Bring hope to humanity".

 

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... Oh it seems as though you all forgot the plot to sonic battle. 

Let me refresh ya memories for ya. So in that game Gerald ( because this is the start of sonic team trying to connect random shit to shadow to make it more popular and it not working ) gives emril a " Soul " like his granddaughter maria, this " soul" is also the reason why shadow in that game explains why he can do chaos control with out an emerald because he has maria's " Soul " . 

Shadow the hedgehog establishes this phenomia as " Shadow's an alien and he has determination" [insert the first four notes of megalomania here] as an explanation for these events. This is in combination with the whole alien thing and subsequent organized murder that took place on the arc... not really leaving time for gerald to even ...do anything in battle really? Also there's no reference to any other gerald experiments in Shadow so there's that. 

But yeah that's the soul thing

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To be fair, there didn't seem to have been a lot of time for him to reprogram Shadow or make the cannon to stop the Black Arms.

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4 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

I mean if Generations remixed one of Battle's music, that may point to it being canon.

I think i mentioned Gemril being referenced, and as counter point. 

Sonic 06 is referenced in that game, and not only is sonic 06 referenced in that game blaze is the character you save that game. And not only does that game retcon itself out of existence blaze's backstory is back to what it was orginally. Not everything that appears in that game is canon, and the game itself was believed to be non canon and was told to us by someone who used to work at sega I believe on this forum to be non canon... until recently. And even then its the events of generations being canon , "sonic fighting time displaced people and levels to go back home" rather than anything like music. 

This is in combination with , there has been things mentioned and put in sonic games before from non canon shit. 

Sonic X was referenced in sonic DX

Sonic eating chilidogs were originally from older sonic cartoons

Shadow's inhibitor rings are also originally from Sonic X 

So just because something comes up in a game doesn't really guarantee that the thing it came from is now canon. They just...thought it was cool

2 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

To be fair, there didn't seem to have been a lot of time for him to reprogram Shadow or make the cannon to stop the Black Arms.

That's totally fair, but given that. He somehow just found a magically robot after he interacted with aliens that they specifically told him not to do, he used that to barder with them more time? 

Every single interpretation of gun at that time, points to them being fearful greedy and not willing to barder much, in previous interpretation their version of bardering was " Gerald can work from a cell " .

You saw the stops gerald may have made on earth or at least " sonic land " ( because those are separate now ) and that was mostly echidina stuff. Because he found a hedgehog and wanted to do experiments on it and that was research material. 

Nothing is mentioned about a secret robot, and that secret robot is never mentioned again. Its a fun , non canon thing that's a fun side non canon thing. And that's ok. 

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11 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

This is in combination with the whole alien thing and subsequent organized murder that took place on the arc... not really leaving time for gerald to even ...do anything in battle really? Also there's no reference to any other gerald experiments in Shadow so there's that. 

 

Artificial Chaos. 

 

8 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

To be fair, there didn't seem to have been a lot of time for him to reprogram Shadow or make the cannon to stop the Black Arms.

Yeah, that always was kind of a hole, wasn't it?

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4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

... Oh it seems as though you all forgot the plot to sonic battle. 

Let me refresh ya memories for ya. So in that game Gerald ( because this is the start of sonic team trying to connect random shit to shadow to make it more popular and it not working ) gives emril a " Soul " like his granddaughter maria, this " soul" is also the reason why shadow in that game explains why he can do chaos control with out an emerald because he has maria's " Soul " . 

Shadow the hedgehog establishes this phenomia as " Shadow's an alien and he has determination" [insert the first four notes of megalomania here] as an explanation for these events.

These don't necessarily contradict each other. First off, I don't think anything in Battle says that Shadow is able to use Chaos Control without an emerald because of this metaphorical "soul". That "soul" has more to do with their morality and conscience than any superpowers. He is willing to give up his emerald to Emerl because he has "Maria in [his] heart" but I don't read this as that "soul"; his feelings about and promise to Maria are the source of his (as you call it) determination, now that he's sorted things out and come to terms with his identity as a weapon with a heart.

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

This is in combination with the whole alien thing and subsequent organized murder that took place on the arc... not really leaving time for gerald to even ...do anything in battle really?

Gerald's journal in Battle has him working with Emerl before or at least parallel with Shadow's creation. I don't see any conflict in the timing of things.

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Also there's no reference to any other gerald experiments in Shadow so there's that.

There doesn't need to be. ShtH isn't about Emerl, it has no obligation to talk about Emerl, it would only be wasting time and muddling the (already very muddled) story to talk about Emerl.

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There's no way Battle is still canon. If nothing else, it's Shadow's ending that make it impossible instead of the beginning and back story. 

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13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

These don't necessarily contradict each other. First off, I don't think anything in Battle says that Shadow is able to use Chaos Control without an emerald because of this metaphorical "soul". That "soul" has more to do with their morality and conscience than any superpowers. He is willing to give up his emerald to Emerl because he has "Maria in [his] heart" but I don't read this as that "soul"; his feelings about and promise to Maria are the source of his (as you call it) determination, now that he's sorted things out and come to terms with his identity as a weapon with a heart.

PAUSE.

Quote

his feelings about and promise to Maria are the source of his

Ok , sure you can interpret that that way. However, then how is the robot who never met this person also have that? Because that was also Emrils thing. 

Unless you interpret that as literally putting some form of maria soul into shadow and emril. ShtH would then contridict that. 

 

So you got two options

A) Hypothetical, where it doesn't work because Maria, never met gemril for that to work. He would have to be about around the same time shadow was about... and he wasn't. 

B ) Literally pulled some William afton shit and put a version of her souls in both bodies. Which then ShtH says nah it was alien blood. Which then just contradicts the whole point of that game. 

 

Quote

Gerald's journal in Battle has him working with Emerl before or at least parallel with Shadow's creation. I don't see any conflict in the timing of things.

 

New developments: Because I bothered to go look up and make sure that i'm at least talking some sense. Battle states that emril is the reason GUN goes ham and murders everyone. 

In Shadow the hedgehog, it is stated because Gerald enteract with the black comet when he was specifically instructed not to 

Quote

There doesn't need to be. ShtH isn't about Emerl, it has no obligation to talk about Emerl, it would only be wasting time and muddling the (already very muddled) story to talk about Emerl.

Its not, but if there was another super powerful thing gerald was working on in some regards, or at least left open in an off handed sense like " OH Gerald had bunches of crazy experiments " that never really occurs. He want's to cure his granddaughter fictional disease and is doing the ultimate life form thing to do it. And that's about all he got up to, the biolizard was apart of that which is referenced in sonic adventure 2

Emril is a character the first of many who arbitrarily connected to shadow because they thought it would make it cool, but it didn't work, so they made it not canon. 

That's the long and short of it 

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7 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Anyone remember if Ian said no new characters would be introduced in Year 2?

Like

New New or like, New not in the comic?

Don't quote me on on this , I just remember him saying before that maybe like older comic characters might show up and then that plan changing wildly. I don't remember if said no new characters at all , I think he made some mention of not having a lot of time?

I might be getting bumble casts switched up. But it does seem like plans have changed. On a speculative note, I can't see why they couldn't introduce new characters next year?

 

If you mean like characters who exist in the games whoa re MIA, i don't think he said anything like that

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Just now, Shadowlax said:

I might be getting bumble casts switched up. But it does seem like plans have changed. On a speculative note, I can't see why they couldn't introduce new characters next year?

It might be to avoid the problems of the SWC arc by not having too many new characters be introduced and instead focus on the existing cast.

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7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Unless you interpret that as literally putting some form of maria soul into shadow and emril.

B ) Literally pulled some William afton shit and put a version of her souls in both bodies. Which then ShtH says nah it was alien blood. Which then just contradicts the whole point of that game. 

Which is what I thought you meant and would've been very fucked up.

It being metaphorical makes more sense.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Anyone remember if Ian said no new characters would be introduced in Year 2?

I wanna say, yeah, I do remember him saying something to that effect.

There's was something about one more hero/team to establish near the end, though. It's been a while.

2 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It might be to avoid the problems of the SWC arc by not having too many new characters be introduced and instead focus on the existing cast.

Even if there's not much to focus on this time.

 

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7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

PAUSE.

Ok , sure you can interpret that that way. However, then how is the robot who never met this person also have that? Because that was also Emrils thing. 

There are two different things going on here: the "soul" Gerald gave his creations, and the memories of Maria. Both Emerl and Shadow have the "soul", only Shadow has the memories.

7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

New developments: Because I bothered to go look up and make sure that i'm at least talking some sense. Battle states that emril is the reason GUN goes ham and murders everyone. 

In Shadow the hedgehog, it is stated because Gerald enteract with the black comet when he was specifically instructed not to 

Gerald's journal talks about there being threats to have his research shut down even before Emerl goes on a rampage. And I'm not seeing anything ShtH that says it was specifically and exclusively Gerald meeting with Black Doom that led to the ARK being shut down. It's entirely possible that both events are what led to the decision to shut the ARK down.

7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Its not, but if there was another super powerful thing gerald was working on in some regards, or at least left open in an off handed sense like " OH Gerald had bunches of crazy experiments " that never really occurs.

Because there's no need to say that. Even back in SA2 immortality research was clearly not the only thing going on on the ARK; the place is crawling with Artificial Chaos and the nose of the damn thing is a planet-busting laser. It's not at all a stretch to have Gerald also researching some ancient tech because GUN wanted to weaponize it.

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2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Another point that's important to note is that Gerald didn't create Emerl himself.

That much I know.

Does Sonic Battle mention who? I know it's an ancient robot.

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