Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

The one by Flynn with Tangle and Whisper

Ooh...see, if it was just Tangle, maybe it could've slid.

We'll see.

[PublicEnemy1]

Can anyone pick anything out of this Bumblekast?

[DabigRG]

6 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

Can anyone pick anything out of this Bumblekast?

Dammit, I keep forgetting to listen to the episodes past Infinity War.

Also, that's Kyle? Huh.

[Cuz]

Play Smash!

Someone asked about dinosaur anthros and proxies of Archie characters.

Interestingly Starline (like Tangle and Whisper) was designed around a game mechanic, and is apparently one part of a trio that would make that game mechanic influence more apparent when they show up..

[PublicEnemy1]

10 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Play Smash!

Someone asked about dinosaur anthros and proxies of Archie characters.

Interestingly Starline (like Tangle and Whisper) was designed around a game mechanic, and is apparently one part of a trio that would make that game mechanic influence more apparent when they show up..

I skimmed to that part, and you're right! In fact, he stated that those two other characters were meant to debut alongside Starline, but due to revisions, they had to be put on the back-burner for now. 

[Multikaris]

53 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Play Smash!

Someone asked about dinosaur anthros and proxies of Archie characters.

Interestingly Starline (like Tangle and Whisper) was designed around a game mechanic, and is apparently one part of a trio that would make that game mechanic influence more apparent when they show up..

Yeah, while the specific characters may be gone, the character archetype remains. Like Dr. Zachary. Finitevus, Ix, and Starline all come from that basic idea.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

22 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Yeah, while the specific characters may be gone, the character archetype remains. Like Dr. Zachary. Finitevus, Ix, and Starline all come from that basic idea.

Even better is that they still remain distinct despite the similarities and inspirations from one another.

Ix and Finitivus, for example, are both albino echidnas with great knowledge and power, and while they also have similar personalities, they have different agendas.

Ix wants to bring his Civilization back and re-start his world conquest, essentially more like Eggman but main for his people and has actual experience in ruling. Finitivus wants world destruction, “clensing it with fire” due to his disgust at how it’s become and seeks it to be reset.

Then their methods they go about matching with each until they diverge since they do a lot of manipulation involves their goals.

You can put these them in the same room and they’ll still differ among themselves due to their goals alone despite their similarities, but they still fit the same general character outline.

Starline seems to be more associated with Eggman than independent like Ix and Finitivus tho given that they care less about Eggman in their plans. Seems to almost add the spirit of an Egg Boss as well to set him apart.

[DabigRG]

2 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Even better is that they still remain distinct despite the similarities and inspirations from one another.

It's almost like they were created for three different continuities & purpose and that the things they have in common are rather common tropes.

But yes, I agree.  

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

It's almost like they were created for three different continuities & purpose and that the things they have in common are rather common tropes.

But yes, I agree.  

I mean, that’s kinda what I was emphasizing because I like that kind of distinction that makes them less like Expies. It makes the continuity irrelevant as they’re more independent of that—you can put them all in one place and they’ll still play within those strengths and purposes.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I mean, that’s kinda what I was emphasizing because I like that kind of distinction that makes them less like Expies. It makes the continuity irrelevant as they’re more independent of that—you can put them all in one place and they’ll still play within those strengths and purposes.

Even better!

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Okay, so this point I'm about to make is more or less irrelevant and might have been covered at this point by someone else, but I've been having some irked feelings in regards to the Sonic and Shadow scenario back in the early bits of IDW Sonic (Issue 6 methinks it was?), especially in regards to Sonic's counterargument to Shadow wanting to off Eggman.

Now being frank, Sonic winning the argument by default is to be expected since Sonic can't ever be allowed to lose face or lose a fight, and freedom and mercy is great and all that, and I doubt Shadow would ever be allowed to be in a scenario where his more brutal philosophy would be seen in the right without some major concessions or some kind of backlash attached to it, especially since plenty of people would whine about it being too dark and edgy despite the fact that it would be a logical route to consider in a number of cases.

That said, it honestly feels like a false equivalence to say that Shadow's attempt to destroy the planet was somehow the same as Eggman's attempts to conquer the world in the past, and thus Eggman should be allowed to go free since he no longer remembers anything about his past evil self (and if the recent comics are any indicator, DOESN'T want to go back to being that), for a number of reasons:

1) Difference in motivations.

While it's admittedly a bit ambiguous as to how responsible Shadow is for his actions in SA2 (at least in regards to the whole killing all of humanity, and how much of it was Gerald reprogramming his mind and how much of it was Shadow's own desire), it's at least clear that he committed his actions for the sake of vengeance for his loved ones. It was over the top and extreme to be sure, but it was at least something that could be interpreted in a sympathetic light.

Eggman is unambiguous in his desire to conquer and force everyone to love him (OR ELSE) in a world spanning empire, and everyone who denies him this is to be eradicated. There MIIIGHT be a sympathetic element in that he MIGHT be a lonely man at his core, and his narcissism is just him trying to get the love he desperately craves or something, but it's only hinted at best and generally never impacts the majority of his decisions otherwise.

2) Difference in what the characters do and feel about it.

Shadow after his plan is enacted and the ARK plummets seems to have some sense of regret or resignation about what's about to happen, but isn't willing to do anything about it until he's convinced that what he's doing is the opposite of his dead friend's desires, and that he's been manipulated by his creator. He ultimately tries to fix his mistake.

Eggman...tries to take over the world later on after he fails his current plan, and almost never reflects on his actions and the aftermath of the damage he causes, showing a lack of care about what happens except how it impacts his ego.

3) Difference is how the characters change because of it.

Shadow is ultimately trying to atone or at least try to live up to Maria's true desires, even if his methods are far from perfect and sometimes unnecessarily brutal.

Eggman doesn't give a fuck and keeps on being gleefully evil with only occasionally sparks of self-awareness or regret about something, and it's usually narcissistic in some fashion.

 

And even NOT taking the above aside, it's still a bothersome element just by the simple fact that JUST BECAUSE EGGMAN CANNOT REMEMBER RIGHT NOW AND IS GOOD RIGHT NOW AS MR. TINKER, DOESN'T MEAN HE CAN'T POTENTIALLY REVERT BACK OR END UP BEING FAKING IT ALL ALONG. Both Sonic and Shadow had good points on paper, but it's all brushed aside for the sake of making Sonic in the right (and ignoring how dickish it is for Sonic to bring up Shadow's faux pas the way he did), and resulting in a rather hollow resolution.

Now that said, there is a way I think it could have been resolved that would have at least satisfied both parties and still moved the plot along in a natural manner: Put the village where he's staying at under discreet surveillance by the Chaotix. This solves a few points that I've seen pop up in some other forum poster's reviews of the current story arcs:

1) Gives Mr. Tinker the chance to live his life peacefully (and since he apparently does remember who he was, but didn't want to return to that life), but keep an eye on him in case he shows signs of Eggman returning, or it turns out he was faking all along.

2) Reduces the amount of characters needed to focus on for the Angel Island Arc, thus allowing for more focus on the remaining cast and to expand on the OCs like Tangle and Whisper.

3) Ensures that the Chaotix are allowed to still have a relevant role while also putting more emphasis on their strengths, and also possibly allowing for interaction with Mr. Tinker before the kidnapping.

4) Allows for a more seamless transition to Dr. Starline and the Rough and Tumble kidnapping, and their attempt to bring Eggman back.

 

3 & 4 in particular are important, because having the Chaotix at the village would allow for them to be developed separate from the big Resistance group in Battle Arc, and would allow them a chance to show more of their personalities when trying to keep an eye on Eggman, perhaps even come to realize that Mr. Tinker does remember but genuinely doesn't want to return to his evil self, allowing for character depth and exploration. Thus, once the Rough and Tumble duo attempt to kidnap him, there's a personal element to the whole thing as the Chaotix don't want to see a good person twisted back into evil.

Plus, it would also allow for a separate series of fights to occur, such as the Chaotix vs Rough and Tumble, allowing them to show off more of their abilities without being lost in the chaos of the battle against Metal Sonic. Then things could wrap up on their end with Dr. Starline making his debut and helping to defeat the Chaotix and kidnap Eggman, which the Chaotix would then either inform the main Resistance group about what happened before attempting to give chase, or Vector deciding to try to find where Starline took Eggman to using their team's detective skills out of anger, wounded pride, and personal concern for Mr. Tinker, thus again adding a personal element by the Chaotix feeling shame in their failure to guard him, and also allowing them to show off their best traits as unconventional detectives. And it ultimately adds an element of tragedy since they'll ultimately fail and Eggman will return.

I know this is a really late thing, but it's just something I need to get off my chest. It's too late for such a thing to happen now, but it's just my two cents.

What do you think?

[Diogenes]

21 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

2) Difference in what the characters do and feel about it.

Shadow after his plan is enacted and the ARK plummets seems to have some sense of regret or resignation about what's about to happen, but isn't willing to do anything about it until he's convinced that what he's doing is the opposite of his dead friend's desires, and that he's been manipulated by his creator. He ultimately tries to fix his mistake.

Eggman...tries to take over the world later on after he fails his current plan, and almost never reflects on his actions and the aftermath of the damage he causes, showing a lack of care about what happens except how it impacts his ego.

That's the point, though. Sonic didn't just kill Shadow even though he was a bad guy trying to kill everyone, and Shadow ended up switching sides and becoming a force for good. And Sonic thinks even Eggman can be similarly redeemed, while Shadow denies the possibility, even though he himself went through it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's the point, though. Sonic didn't just kill Shadow even though he was a bad guy trying to kill everyone, and Shadow ended up switching sides and becoming a force for good. And Sonic thinks even Eggman can be similarly redeemed, while Shadow denies the possibility, even though he himself went through it.

 

To be frank though, that was more because they had bigger problems to deal with and we never exactly established where Shadow vanished to after the fight against Sonic until he showed up again for Amy to talk down. And frankly by the time time Shadow met up with Sonic again he had swapped sides so there wasn’t much reason for them to continue fighting.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

 

To be frank though, that was more because they had bigger problems to deal with and we never exactly established where Shadow vanished to after the fight against Sonic until he showed up again for Amy to talk down. And frankly by the time time Shadow met up with Sonic again he had swapped sides so there wasn’t much reason for them to continue fighting.

Or, maybe, it is actually part of Sonic's basic worldview to not kill people?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Or, maybe, it is actually part of Sonic's basic worldview to not kill people?

Yeah it’s his worldview. So? Shadow didn’t exactly broadcast his true intentions until it had practically already been achieved, so while there was animosity due to the whole Shadow/Sonic mixup, their animosity was more irritation and eventual begrudging respect for each other.

Eggman has consistently shown a complete lack of remorse for his actions, hence why I don’t blame Shadow for thinking attempting to redeem him is pointless. I will acknowledge that Sonic isn’t the type of guy to kill others intentionally, so him conflicting with Shadow made sense, but my issue is how he tries to make Shadow and Eggman’s cases seem the same, when the above nuances I mentioned make a world of difference between the two, and thus it feels like a false equivalency.

i will note that Shadow did jump the gun at attacking Mr. Tinker, but this just ties back to my point about Shadow trying to do the right thing but often being too brutal or too extreme in his methods. It’s also why I mentioned everything else after the point you quoted; that was supposed to be a compromise between their views while still driving the plot forward. It gives Mr Tinker the chance to be redeemed of Eggman (satisfying Sonic’s view), while still ensuring that Eggman isn’t just being let off scot-free (satisfying Shadows side of things).

[Riggo]

Also, on Sonic’s “no-kill” policy—he really didn’t hesitate when killing King Arthur.

[PublicEnemy1]

9 minutes ago, Riggo said:

Also, on Sonic’s “no-kill” policy—he really didn’t hesitate when killing King Arthur.

That's because SEGA is so inconsistent with his personality. One game is "Oh yeah! We're the Sonic Heroes!" to "Can't always be the hero every time!" It's so annoying.

[Shadowlax]

51 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Or, maybe, it is actually part of Sonic's basic worldview to not kill people?

Sonic Has seen shadow canonically murder people and things. I think it was the whole memory thing

I do think there's a good story to mine where sonic doesn't want shadow to murder a guy , but shadow kind of has to murder a guy. ( that's where I think the eclipse thing was gonna go in the last book ). I just don't think this was done well... or really needed to be done at all. All in all the story doesn't matter and has no effect on how shadow handled things in the next fight...

 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

That's the point, though. Sonic didn't just kill Shadow even though he was a bad guy trying to kill everyone, and Shadow ended up switching sides and becoming a force for good. And Sonic thinks even Eggman can be similarly redeemed, while Shadow denies the possibility, even though he himself went through it.

There's a difference here, and why the argument is bad is well. Its the reverse situation. Shadow was being manipulated with his memories, once that ended he reverted to who he was, which is generally a good dude, but kind of an asshole.Heck even when shadow lost his memories he was still a generally ok dude.  Eggman is on the opposite end of the spectrum, one knock on the head and he's back to business.

I don't think those things are comparable because shadow literally was being manipulated.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

And even NOT taking the above aside, it's still a bothersome element just by the simple fact that JUST BECAUSE EGGMAN CANNOT REMEMBER RIGHT NOW AND IS GOOD RIGHT NOW AS MR. TINKER, DOESN'T MEAN HE CAN'T POTENTIALLY REVERT BACK OR END UP BEING FAKING IT ALL ALONG. Both Sonic and Shadow had good points on paper, but it's all brushed aside for the sake of making Sonic in the right (and ignoring how dickish it is for Sonic to bring up Shadow's faux pas the way he did), and resulting in a rather hollow resolution.

Both characters fully understood the stakes. Sonic pondered several times during the course of the issue if it was possible for the original Robotnik to bleed through and return to his evil ways. Sonic even assured Tinker at the end of the issue that he would be checking in on him - which was an obvious lampshade that he was going to keep tabs on the doctor to make sure he wasn't bluffing.

I think the part that you are missing, is that is all of that inflection is beside the point. To Sonic, It doesn't matter that there is a possibility for Tinker to revert. It doesn't matter how much pain and suffering he has caused over the years. Sonic has always acted in the moment. And at the moment, with what he was seeing and on the intuitions of Vector (who is undoubtedly one of the sagest characters in the series when it comes to hunches) - Tinker was not a threat.

Bringing up Shadows tribulations wasn't a dick move. It was a reminder that peoples past don't have to dictate their future. Sonic's flipped enough enemies into friends to know that, and its precisely why Shadow eventually relented.

 

And for all your talk of the narrative bending over backwards to make Sonic right... you do realize that his decisions will inevitably backfire right? The second Tinker becomes Eggman again, Shadow will come out smelling like hotel soap. In the long run - Sonic will be the one in the wrong, and he will be 100% okay with that, as should we.

[StaticMania]

36 minutes ago, Riggo said:

Also, on Sonic’s “no-kill” policy—he really didn’t hesitate when killing King Arthur.

Think about it this way. If it's the right thing to do, he'll do it.

 

The right thing to do is vague, so it literally doesn't matter that you brought that up.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Just now, Sega DogTagz said:

Both characters fully understood the stakes. Sonic pondered several times during the course of the issue if it was possible for the original Robotnik to bleed through and return to his evil ways. Sonic even assured Tinker at the end of the issue that he would be checking in on him - which was an obvious lampshade that he was going to keep tabs on the doctor to make sure he wasn't bluffing.

I think the part that you are missing, is that is all of that inflection is beside the point. To Sonic, It doesn't matter that there is a possibility for Tinker to revert. It doesn't matter how much pain and suffering he has caused over the years. Sonic has always acted in the moment. And at the moment, with what he was seeing and on the intuitions of Vector (who is undoubtedly one of the sagest characters in the series when it comes to hunches) - Tinker was not a threat.

Bringing up Shadows tribulations wasn't a dick move. It was a reminder that peoples past don't have to dictate their future. Sonic's flipped enough enemies into friends to know that, and its precisely why Shadow eventually relented.

 

And for all your talk of the narrative bending over backwards to make Sonic right... you do realize that his decisions will inevitably backfire right? The second Tinker becomes Eggman again, Shadow will come out smelling like hotel soap. In the long run - Sonic will be the one in the wrong, and he will be 100% okay with that, as should we.

I know that things will more or less validate Shadow, I just found the false equivalence annoying and also wanted to offer an alternate idea.

Seriously, did everyone forget about the latter half of my post or something?

https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22450-idws-sonic-the-hedgehog/?do=findComment&comment=1246540

[Shadowlax]

42 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

i will note that Shadow did jump the gun at attacking Mr. Tinker, but this just ties back to my point about Shadow trying to do the right thing but often being too brutal or too extreme in his methods. It’s also why I mentioned everything else after the point you quoted; that was supposed to be a compromise between their views while still driving the plot forward. It gives Mr Tinker the chance to be redeemed of Eggman (satisfying Sonic’s view), while still ensuring that Eggman isn’t just being let off scot-free (satisfying Shadows side of things).

I was kind of hoping instead of like.... the whole thing with the new villian.

Eggman Gets conked on the head, and regains his memory. And when they return to the village its just decimated on fire, and everyone is gone and implied to be dead. And shadow's just kind of pissed and goes on some war path , leaving sonic to sort of deal with messing up.

This story was primed for some good sonic " I fucked up " but we will see where it goes

 

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Bringing up Shadows tribulations wasn't a dick move. It was a reminder that peoples past don't have to dictate their future. Sonic's flipped enough enemies into friends to know that, and its precisely why Shadow eventually relented.

That doesn't make sense. Because shadow's situation was " Oh I was being manipulated and i'm not now, guess i'll be good ". Ontop of that, Shadow... shouldn't care about what sonic thinks about flipping enemies. Sonic 06's whole story was about how shadow is gonna do what he wants to do , regardless of who tells him not to do whatever that thing is. Even if its satan from the future who looks like a blue recolor of himself with no feet.

The response to that sonic's query if shadow was written like shadow should be is

" OK then kill me " and then sonic goes " UH .. uh.. I didn't expect you to say that " but it wasn't, not because of sonic flipping ideology. Shadow doesn't really give a shit about what other people think of him. It wasn't that because that issue didn't matter, he was probably made to write a shadow issue  , the whole things filler and to have that at the end of a comic would require more than one issue. So they just had shadow stop because it was convenient and that's it.

My theory will be confirmed if no one acknolwedges that story happened and shadow literally goes back to doing the thing he's doing. And I gotta hunch that's exactly whats gonna happen

 

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

And for all your talk of the narrative bending over backwards to make Sonic right... you do realize that his decisions will inevitably backfire right? The second Tinker becomes Eggman again, Shadow will come out smelling like hotel soap. In the long run - Sonic will be the one in the wrong, and he will be 100% okay with that, as should we.

That depends on if they acknowledge it. And that's my issue with the whole story.

If eggman comes back, and that doesn't get brought back up. That entire series of events is pointless. So that bit only matters if that story matters, and I doubt it matters because it didn't really matter at the time and just felt like filler.

[DabigRG]

 

1 hour ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Now that said, there is a way I think it could have been resolved that would have at least satisfied both parties and still moved the plot along in a natural manner: Put the village where he's staying at under discreet surveillance by the Chaotix. This solves a few points that I've seen pop up in some other forum poster's reviews of the current story arcs:

1) Gives Mr. Tinker the chance to live his life peacefully (and since he apparently does remember who he was, but didn't want to return to that life), but keep an eye on him in case he shows signs of Eggman returning, or it turns out he was faking all along.

2) Reduces the amount of characters needed to focus on for the Angel Island Arc, thus allowing for more focus on the remaining cast and to expand on the OCs like Tangle and Whisper.

3) Ensures that the Chaotix are allowed to still have a relevant role while also putting more emphasis on their strengths, and also possibly allowing for interaction with Mr. Tinker before the kidnapping.

4) Allows for a more seamless transition to Dr. Starline and the Rough and Tumble kidnapping, and their attempt to bring Eggman back.

 

3 & 4 in particular are important, because having the Chaotix at the village would allow for them to be developed separate from the big Resistance group in Battle Arc, and would allow them a chance to show more of their personalities when trying to keep an eye on Eggman, perhaps even come to realize that Mr. Tinker does remember but genuinely doesn't want to return to his evil self, allowing for character depth and exploration. Thus, once the Rough and Tumble duo attempt to kidnap him, there's a personal element to the whole thing as the Chaotix don't want to see a good person twisted back into evil.

Plus, it would also allow for a separate series of fights to occur, such as the Chaotix vs Rough and Tumble, allowing them to show off more of their abilities without being lost in the chaos of the battle against Metal Sonic. Then things could wrap up on their end with Dr. Starline making his debut and helping to defeat the Chaotix and kidnap Eggman, which the Chaotix would then either inform the main Resistance group about what happened before attempting to give chase, or Vector deciding to try to find where Starline took Eggman to using their team's detective skills out of anger, wounded pride, and personal concern for Mr. Tinker, thus again adding a personal element by the Chaotix feeling shame in their failure to guard him, and also allowing them to show off their best traits as unconventional detectives. And it ultimately adds an element of tragedy since they'll ultimately fail and Eggman will return.

I know this is a really late thing, but it's just something I need to get off my chest. It's too late for such a thing to happen now, but it's just my two cents.

What do you think?

Most of this would've been good or better.

The only difference is that I think it'd make more sense to just have Rough n Tumble eventually beat the Chaotix themselves. 

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Or, maybe, it is actually part of Sonic's basic worldview to not kill people?

 

43 minutes ago, Riggo said:

Also, on Sonic’s “no-kill” policy—he really didn’t hesitate when killing King Arthur.

Yeah, Sonic's never really shown much aversion to having to kill at times. 

Hell, the Classics had him make an attempt to take out Robotnik as he makes an escape. 

30 minutes ago, PublicEnemy1 said:

That's because SEGA is so inconsistent with his personality. One game is "Oh yeah! We're the Sonic Heroes!" to "Can't always be the hero every time!" It's so annoying.

To be fair, "We're Sonic Heroes!" basically means "let's kick some badnik butt together!"

[Sega DogTagz]

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That doesn't make sense. Because shadow's situation was " Oh I was being manipulated and i'm not now, guess i'll be good ".

Does that even matter? For one Shadow did not flip to the good side because he found out he was being manipulated. In the grand scheme of things, even if all his actions in SA2 were a direct result of Gerald using him for his revenge - Shadow still got what he wanted at the end of the day. When it came to light that the world was going to be destroyed, Shadow was content to stand by and watch. It was a suitable ends to his means for his own revenge.

Furthermore, Shadow didn't even flip to the good side following that. He spent Heroes and Shth trying to figure out who he was as his sole motivation and he wasn't exactly on Sonic's side in Battle either - showing up to kill Emerl in the first 5 seconds only to get rebuked by Sonic (doesn't that sound familiar )

Shadow didn't actually flip until he said goodbye to himself at the end of Shth and choose to make the world a better place through his decision making in the subsequent games.

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Ontop of that, Shadow... shouldn't care about what sonic thinks about flipping enemies. Sonic 06's whole story was about how shadow is gonna do what he wants to do , regardless of who tells him not to do whatever that thing is. Even if its satan from the future who looks like a blue recolor of himself with no feet.

Shadow doing his own thing doesn't mean he is going to all of a sudden stop listening to logic. He's not a one-track machine that is incapable of accepting new inputs.

 

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The response to that sonic's query if shadow was written like shadow should be is

" OK then kill me " and then sonic goes " UH .. uh.. I didn't expect you to say that " but it wasn't, not because of sonic flipping ideology.

Please map out this conversation and tell me how that makes even the smallest shred of sense. Sonic wouldn't fall over himself like that because his entire point is that they should not kill Eggman. If Shadow were to quip "Kill Me" Sonic would refuse to do that and stick to his guns - thus proving his entire point that its okay to give people a chance to do good.

Shad doesn't have a moral leg to stand on here. Sonic just tells him to his face to give someone else the same chance he got post-amnesia.

 

14 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That depends on if they acknowledge it. And that's my issue with the whole story.

Even if they don't acknowledge it, we will know.

Even if they do, Sonic's not going to wallow is self-pity about it because regardless of where he goes from here he would be willing to make the same decision 100 times out of 100. Its in character and consistent with his motivations.

[Shadowlax]

57 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Does that even matter? For one Shadow did not flip to the good side because he found out he was being manipulated. In the grand scheme of things, even if all his actions in SA2 were a direct result of Gerald using him for his revenge - Shadow still got what he wanted at the end of the day. When it came to light that the world was going to be destroyed, Shadow was content to stand by and watch. It was a suitable ends to his means for his own revenge.

Furthermore, Shadow didn't even flip to the good side following that. He spent Heroes and Shth trying to figure out who he was as his sole motivation and he wasn't exactly on Sonic's side in Battle either - showing up to kill Emerl in the first 5 seconds only to get rebuked by Sonic (doesn't that sound familiar )

Yeah it does, the manipulated memories he had in his head wore off and realized what he wanted... wasn't really what he wanted. Its kind of the plot of the game dude. If you want to say that he's still like responsible for his actions, I agree with you. But that does add context. He didn't want  that really, him wanting that was Dr. G Robotnik trying to assert his will 50 years later.

Actually he did, his whole thing in heroes was... being a hero. And... well the canon a route in SHTH given the final scene seems to be " Shadow teams up with everyone once and maybe tries to kill eggman then fights black doom" so... he was a hero there too.

As for sonic battle goes, its irrelevant and not canon because of Shadow the Hedgehog... so don't know why you brought that up. Doesn't play into what the modern interpretation of his character and his abilities are. Is what it is

Quote

Shadow didn't actually flip until he said goodbye to himself at the end of Shth and choose to make the world a better place through his decision making in the subsequent games.

Except when he helped saved the day in that game and the game prior.

Quote

Shadow doing his own thing doesn't mean he is going to all of a sudden stop listening to logic. He's not a one-track machine that is incapable of accepting new inputs.

Why would shadow see that as logical? Shadow given who he is, would probably see the most logical course of action would be murdering eggman. Murdering eggman makes the world a better place, he doesn't feel bad about it and makes everyone's lives easier.

Quote

Please map out this conversation and tell me how that makes even the smallest shred of sense. Sonic wouldn't fall over himself like that because his entire point is that they should not kill Eggman. If Shadow were to quip "Kill Me" Sonic would refuse to do that and stick to his guns - thus proving his entire point that its okay to give people a chance to do good.

Map out how that scenario should have been? Sure.

So sonic is like " Well then what about you and all the things you did "

And shadow's like " If you feel like I am sufficient threat to the world at large, as much as Eggman.Take your shot "

Sonic: "... I"m not doing that "

Shadow: " I know you wont. my mission is to protect the world from danger. At all costs, no matter who it is. Even if its eggman, even if its you "

Sonic then actually thinks for two seconds and realizes that shadow's just on a fundamental level a different kind of cat, and this isn't an argument he's going to win. In that moment shadow rushes back to Mr. Tinker and tries to end the entire thing. Where he is stopped by children. Because instead of those children dissapearing into houses and not being seen because they would have to acknowledge the plot holes in sonic forces. They are here trying to defend the nice man who was nice to them from the bad guy. Shadow seeing this as a similar scenario he went though backs off. It isn't because of sonic, shadow should never really give a shit what sonic thinks in these scenarios. Its because he doesn't want to become a monster. The same type of monsters who trumatized him.

That way when Eggman comes back, Sonic isn't inherently wrong. And shadow's descion to let him go is fueled by his own desires, not some vague sense of moral right enacted because the author needed to end a story. Because now, when eggman comes back the lesson of that entire story is " Welp Should have committed a murder " .

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Shad doesn't have a moral leg to stand on here. Sonic just tells him to his face to give someone else the same chance he got post-amnesia.

Shadow does because having your memories manipulated and then not, and then being a good person for most of your time alive. Is not comparible to someone who has spent seemingly everytime we have seen him, trying to be a dictator who turns people into robots. No matter how hard you want to compare them. They ain't the same, deal with it.

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Even if they don't acknowledge it, we will know.

That doesn't matter. I can say shadow was right. But if the story doesn't acknowledge it, that robs him of that.

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Even if they do, Sonic's not going to wallow is self-pity about it because regardless of where he goes from here he would be willing to make the same decision 100 times out of 100. Its in character and consistent with his motivations.

No one saying sonic should wallow in self pity. But maybe think about maybe he shouldn't but into peoples shit anymore or leave shadow alone or just think for two seconds would be fucking grand.