Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Kuzu]

Shadow is the leader in the same way Sonic is; they don't actually lead, they're just so headstrong and jump into any situation that the others just follow them, 

[Razule]

Or in the way that they can only ever appear attached to him.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Razule said:

Or in the way that they can only ever appear attached to him.

Well that's the out of universe reason obviously

[DabigRG]

 

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I have a whole story idea where shadow and cream have to hang and occasionally he says damn and he has to pay into a swear jar.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, SBR2 said:

TBF that's totally on Sega. From what I remember (it's been a bit since I watched the cutscenes) in Forces she was basically the leader but for some reason they decided that was Knuckles role.

She was more of a mission control and techie. Which would arguably make more sense with Espio, but whatever.

5 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Bean and Zazz never worked together in a bid to be two brutes who worked for Eggman as dumb muscle. 

I'm not comparing their personalities. I'm comparing what their roles seem to be at this point in the story.

Personality wise, I don't really have anyone to really compare them to. The closest thing that comes to mind is rejected animal recruits of the Ginyu Force.

Oh, okay.

The latter was just the closest comparison I could make.

4 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

So a comparison that got me wondering was seeing someone describe Starline as being like a mixture of Finitevus and Snively and I'm kind of wondering how that would play out. Partly because I lack too much knowledge on Finitevus and even then from what I do know him and Snively both seem like manipulators who prefer working solo. This combined with Starline being designed around a gameplay mechanic that requires two other characters whose introductions have been pushed back but were supposedly supposed to be introduced with him to become clear leaves me wondering what to expect.

Good point.

Though thus far, Starline seems like a serious subversion.

 

6 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Partly because I lack too much knowledge on Finitevus

Finitevus was mutated into something of an Anti-Guardian due to his Chaos Syphon Suit malfunctioning with Chaos Knuckles. This led to him acquiring enhanced durability & strength(though he seldom used the later) and corrupted Chaos affinity, as well as a warped perception of what's wrong with the world where the Echidnas are concerned.

To him, the Echidna's problems came down to the fact that they were so obsessed with their different belief systems and relied too much on faith to solve them, instead causing more problems. And the best way to fix things is to wipe out much of the world and let things start anew.

And as both a scientist and a former Technomage for the Dark Legion, he was interested in studying, acquiring, and maintaining various sources of power(the Master Emerald) and technology(Ivan Kintobor's nukes). Partly to gain knowledge for it's own sake and partly to eventually use that knowledge to achieve his goals.

Interestingly, when it came to interacting with others, he tended to be a little backwards--being somewhat condescendingly cordial to enemies and terse with his allies. Granted, that last one could partly be because most of his allies are run of the mill criminals like Scourge and Rouge. But yes, he was someone who preferred enlisting help from base individuals such as them to aid him in accomplishing his goals by doing entry level dirty work.

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

The Sonic and Tails stuff is played out for me. 

Yeah, we get that in the majority of the franchise.

 

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

The character I want Sonic to be paired up with the most by far is Tangle because I think the book isn't giving her enough shine

Uh...I guess.

 

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Still fucking upset that we never got to to issue in Archie where Blaze and Bunnie Rabbot would meet and interact.

Yeah, seriously.

I wish we got that whole arc, but yeah, her's and Antoine's looked expanding.

2 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Sonic and Omega sounds like it'd amuse me. 

Sonic and Omega is a long time coming.

 

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Would like to point out, according to this book and iizuka on accident, not only is shadow the leader of that team. Apparently Team Dark Might be called Team Shadow in japan now or even was refered to that internally because he just called them that recently. 

\

Ugh, really?

2 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

He called her weak.

[dbzfan7]

55 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Shadow is the leader in the same way Sonic is; they don't actually lead, they're just so headstrong and jump into any situation that the others just follow them, 

Well they are called Team SONIC, so it's kinda hard to not have Sonic be the leader XD.....unless they pull a Coon & Friends and kick out Sonic like they did The Coon for quote unquote..."Being a dick"

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Shadow is the leader in the same way Sonic is; they don't actually lead, they're just so headstrong and jump into any situation that the others just follow them, 

" WE ARE DOING THIS NOW "

" Shadow .... you are diving into a pit of fire "

Already swimming in the fire

 

3 hours ago, dbzfan7 said:

If he's supposed to be the leader, he's about as good a leader as Knuckles is...if not worse.

I wouldn't really say that, considering relatively speaking , in universe his "At least trying to get a thing done and understand what's going on " rate is higher than everyone else. Even in issue 6 while ... pragmatic as it may have been... he was trying to solve a problem. Actually solving problems or at least getting shit done is kind of his deal? Shadow might be an anti social weirdo who probably doesn't know how to use a toaster, but he can get a mission done or at least try to figure out the most efficient way of doing so 

 

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

He's the leader in name only. All 3 of them as a team, it doesn't matter who the leader is...it's not like they go on missions and G.U.N. doesn't exist anymore.

They are a group of friends who do things by themselves and consider themselves a team. The mission they go on now are their own, and while I do want gun gone. Unfortunately... we don't know that yet. But dear god please just be gone.

4 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm curious on what is Whisper's beef with Shadow. She was grilling him pretty hard on the ship.

She Bought his game, with the last of her allowance.

She's fucking pissed

[dbzfan7]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I wouldn't really say that, considering relatively speaking , in universe his "At least trying to get a thing done and understand what's going on " rate is higher than everyone else. Even in issue 6 while ... pragmatic as it may have been... he was trying to solve a problem.

It's difficult to be both a brooding loner, and a leader. A leader ya know, leads. All he does is try to do things on his own, and leave on his own without a trace. That's more of a lancer thing to do than a leader.

[Shadowlax]

2 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

It's difficult to be both a brooding loner, and a leader. A leader ya know, leads. All he does is try to do things on his own, and leave on his own without a trace. That's more of a lancer thing to do than a leader.

Batman also Wolverine

The former another person who isn't a good people person but has an exceptionally high rate of " Trying to get shit done "

 

[dbzfan7]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Batman

Batman actually does coordinate his team. Trains them, prepares them. Does a shit more than Shadow ever has in this kind of role. Batman is also more of a team player too, as well as being on several teams and having the BAT family. He leads, he solo's, he can do either or. He doesn't just bring a team together and then go YOLO I'M BATMAN!!! like Shadow basically does.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

They are a group of friends who do things by themselves and consider themselves a team. The mission they go on now are their own, and while I do want gun gone. Unfortunately... we don't know that yet. But dear god please just be gone.

What if they were unofficially aiding GUN, but as a “rogue” group due to the numerous Shadow clones making everyone who didn’t know about Infinite think he went bonkers? Then GUN would have to officially disavow Team Dark to keep their rep, but would secretly turn a blind eye while they try to clear their names and aid the world in their own way?

1 minute ago, dbzfan7 said:

Batman actually does coordinate his team. Trains them, prepares them. Does a shit more than Shadow ever has in this kind of role. Batman is also more of a team player too, as well as being on several teams and having the BAT family. He leads, he solo's, he can do either or. He doesn't just bring a team together and then go YOLO I'M BATMAN!!! like Shadow basically does.

Which is why I think Rouge is the better leader candidate.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, dbzfan7 said:

Batman actually does coordinate his team. Trains them, prepares them. Does a shit more than Shadow ever has in this kind of role. Batman is also more of a team player two, being on several teams and having the BAT family. 

We... don't know if anyone does that outside of say the chaotix because we aren't around them much. And to be honest I don't think " Team sonic " is coordinating anything either. As for shadow being a team player, he's a dick but he's willing to work with people... he's just kind of a dick... like batman.

Shadow isn't on several teams, but that's because he can't really do that. Sonic teams seem to be set up and locked.While I would want characters hanging out with other characters, it doesn't happen often for anyone really.

2 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

What if they were unofficially aiding GUN, but as a “rogue” group due to the numerous Shadow clones making everyone who didn’t know about Infinite think he went bonkers? Then GUN would have to officially disavow Team Dark to keep their rep, but would secretly turn a blind eye while they try to clear their names and aid the world in their own way?

The issue with that is well, Its animal world. GUN as far as we know... doesn't give a shit about animal world. If this was taking place in human land it would be his jurisdiction

2 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Which is why I think Rouge is the better leader candidate.

Also, batman yolo's and then go does his own thing all the time. Literally all the time, I'm playing an arkham game right now and he doesn't want robin helping him because he's yoloing.

He's an anti social weirdo with a dead reletive(s) who likes to be by himself but can bring people together and lead when he needs to , but doesn't like doing it because he likes working alone and is friends with a theif who might be into him

Who does that sound like

 

[dbzfan7]

2 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Which is why I think Rouge is the better leader candidate.

Which is what she felt like since cutscene 1 of Heroes and since. I don't mind making Shadow the leader, but for the love of...just have him show he is a good leader, and not just given said title.

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

We... don't know if anyone does that outside of say the chaotix because we aren't around them much. And to be honest I don't think " Team sonic " is coordinating anything either. As for shadow being a team player, he's a dick but he's willing to work with people... he's just kind of a dick... like batman.

Shadow isn't on several teams, but that's because he can't really do that. Sonic teams seem to be set up and locked.While I would want characters hanging out with other characters, it doesn't happen often for anyone really.

I'm not asking for like a master planer leader, but showing said qualities. Leaders aren't always the most intelligent people. But Sonic like say Jason the Red Ranger is a driving force. They rally people together. Are the spirited center. I can't even give Shadow that as while he can work with others, he doesn't really even attempt to bind any group he's in together. Rouge does. He's more likely to go off and do the Lancer role like say...Falco would of Star Fox.

The point is Batman isn't a great comparison because he does succeed as a leader and has shown his qualifications several times. Like Knuckles I'm not going to immediately shit on the idea of Shadow being a leader. But they have to show it, and not just tell us he's the leader. Show us. Show don't tell. Basic story telling right there.

[StaticMania]

How can they show leadership without the characters talking?

Does he have to have code signs or something?

[Kuzu]

It's also not like Sonic does any real leading himself; people just follow him naturally of their own accord. 

 

Hell, the first few issues is Sonic trying to go off on his own but being dragged in to work with everyone else. Shadow isn't much different in that regard, he's just more willing to tell someone to fuck off. 

[Shadowlax]

Just now, dbzfan7 said:

The point is Batman isn't a great comparison because he does succeed as a leader and has shown his qualifications several times. Like Knuckles I'm not going to immediately shit on the idea of Shadow being a leader. But they have to show it, and not just tell us he's the leader. Show us. Show don't tell. Basic story telling right there.

You will probably get there whenever you get a shadow story where team dark is doing a thing. But in previous incarnations shadow willingness to sacrifice his team. When shit hits the fan guy's willing to take the L to make sure that everyone is safe. You might call it Yolo-ing but his team is a trained spy and a robot who does one thing and generally very well so often times they don't need much direction. But when he does give direction , like say telling them to get off an exploding ship so they can stay safe and he can solve the problem,

Shadow's confident in his team to get the job done, they have specific roles and they do them, if additional instruction is needed like telling one of them to give a jewel back. Or telling satan to literally fuck off and go with his friends, then he will do that

[Kuzu]

And even if Rouge was the leader, Shadow would still just do his own thing anyway which would kind of undermine her. 

[dbzfan7]

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You will probably get there whenever you get a shadow story where team dark is doing a thing. But in previous incarnations shadow willingness to sacrifice his team. When shit hits the fan guy's willing to take the L to make sure that everyone is safe. You might call it Yolo-ing but his team is a trained spy and a robot who does one thing and generally very well so often times they don't need much direction. But when he does give direction , like say telling them to get off an exploding ship so they can stay safe and he can solve the problem,

Shadow's confident in his team to get the job done, they have specific roles and they do them, if additional instruction is needed like telling one of them to give a jewel back. Or telling satan to literally fuck off and go with his friends, then he will do that

Which is why I don't see him as a leader. He's the perfect Lancer. He checks practically all the boxes. He could at least inspire and rally together his own team which is what Sonic does. He inspires people and rallies them together. Unites for a cause. This is exactly what we saw of Rouge. I'm lowering the bar for any leadership quality, and there's really not much if any I can find. He does everything a leader doesn't, but everything a Lancer would.

I don't mind him being the leader as I reiterate, but he doesn't really feel like one beyond being a notable character. He kinda feels like if we called Espio the Leader of the Chaotix. Even then Espio still probably would also be a better leader since he has more qualities of one as well as Lancer ones.

6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

And even if Rouge was the leader, Shadow would still just do his own thing anyway which would kind of undermine her. 

I dunno. From Heroes I get that Rouge can reign him in and help get he and Omega working together/focused. Shadow also has a better relationship with her there. Honestly just checking that Heroes stuff for reference makes me hate the current Shadow even more. I like the old not full edge Shadow. He's not a complete stick in the mud, but can still have his underlying complexity. He'll be a team player and cooperate as it works in line with his own goals, and not just pull the loner card. And he's not just some douche like current Shadow feels like.

[Shadowlax]

15 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Which is why I don't see him as a leader. He's the perfect Lancer. He checks practically all the boxes. He could at least inspire and rally together his own team which is what Sonic does. He inspires people and rallies them together. Unites for a cause. This is exactly what we saw of Rouge. I'm lowering the bar for any leadership quality, and there's really not much if any I can find. He does everything a leader doesn't, but everything a Lancer would.

You are using this term lancer that doesn't apply to this instance, nor do I have the context for whatever that is supposed to mean. And given the circumstances doesn't really apply much here

Quote

I don't mind him being the leader as I reiterate, but he doesn't really feel like one beyond being a notable character. He kinda feels like if we called Espio the Leader of the Chaotix. Even then Espio still probably would also be a better leader since he has more qualities of one as well as Lancer ones.

Vector is the most notable member and leader of the chaotix, he's the only one who got into the most recent spin off games.

And again the term lancer has no meaning in this conversation

Quote

I dunno. From Heroes I get that Rouge can reign him in and help get he and Omega working together/focused. Shadow also has a better relationship with her there. Honestly just checking that Heroes stuff for reference makes me hate the current Shadow even more. I like that Shadow. He's not a complete stick in the mud, but can still have his underlying complexity. He'll be a team player and cooperate as it works in line with his own goals, and not just pull the loner card. And he's not just some douche like current Shadow feels like.

But he still does everything you said. And still is everything you said. Maybe you just...aren't fond of shadow. Which is fine, I don't like silver much. But you know, yeah. Like strait up if you don't like shadow and think he'd be a bad leader... cool. I would argue it , but its cool dude. To each their own.

[dbzfan7]

23 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You are using this term lancer that doesn't apply to this instance, nor do I have the context for whatever that is supposed to mean. And given the circumstances doesn't really apply much here

Vector is the most notable member and leader of the chaotix, he's the only one who got into the most recent spin off games.

And again the term lancer has no meaning in this conversation

But he still does everything you said. And still is everything you said. Maybe you just...aren't fond of shadow. Which is fine, I don't like silver much. But you know, yeah. Like strait up if you don't like shadow and think he'd be a bad leader... cool. I would argue it , but its cool dude. To each their own.

He does none of what I said. He only yolo's into action. I say Lancer because he's the exact foil to a leader, rather than a leader. He does pretty much everything a leader doesn't. Even Knuckles has shown better qualities, and we all criticize his role in Forces. He's who I expect to dive in first no questions asked. Ignore authority and do things himself. Put down the actual leader figure if he has to listen to their kind of plan. Be the foil character to the main hero.

I don't hate Shadow, I hate the current one. There's a difference. I can say the exact same thing about Sonic.

I bring up Espio as he gives off simliar feels to Shadow. I'm not doing a direct comparison. I'm more saying Shadow role feels closer to Espio than he is to like Vector when it comes to being a leader. Not a one to one relationship with his team.

[Shadowlax]

6 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

He does none of what I said. He only yolo's into action. I say Lancer because he's the exact foil to a leader, rather than a leader. He does pretty much everything a leader doesn't. Even Knuckles has shown better qualities, and we all criticize his role in Forces. He's who I expect to dive in first no questions asked. Ignore authority and do things himself. Put down the actual leader figure if he has to listen to their kind of plan. Be the foil character to the main hero.

Lancer means nothing in this scenario. Its a term that has no context, it does not disprove any leadership arguments.

Let me explain in simpler terms

I'm asking you what 2 + 2 is and you are answering green. Like that has no context in this scenario.

6 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I don't hate Shadow, I hate the current one. There's a difference. I can say the exact same thing about Sonic.

I guess its just that he still does..everything you said.

6 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I bring up Espio as he gives off simliar feels to Shadow. I'm not doing a direct comparison. I'm more saying Shadow is closer to Espio than he is to like Vector when it comes to being a leader.

If you say so

[dbzfan7]

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Lancer means nothing in this scenario. Its a term that has no context, it does not disprove any leadership arguments.

Let me explain in simpler terms

I'm asking you what 2 + 2 is and you are answering green. Like that has no context in this scenario.

I guess its just that he still does..everything you said.

If you say so

Lancer is the foil to the leader. Pretty much the go to number 2. They are the character type that is pretty much the opposite of what the leader is. If the leader is calm, they are brash. If the leader is a brash meathead, they tend to be smart and have restraint. They're the first person to butt heads with the ideology of the leader, but are also the most trusted person commonly on the team. Since the hero/leader tends to be the heart of a team, the lancer is more cold and calculated. Again they're the counter point. But even still they'd sacrifice and do everything to help their team progress if the time comes. That is why I bring up Lancer a lot. Shadow is the perfect counter point to a leader, rather than being one himself. This is a character archetype a means everything to the conversation. To say it has no context alludes to not understanding some basic story/character structure.

He doesn't do anything I say. Like ever. I can only say our ideology on leadership is different as to why there's a difference of opinion here.

 

[Shadowlax]

Just now, dbzfan7 said:

Lancer is the foil to the leader. Pretty much the go to number 2. They are the character type that is pretty much the opposite of what the leader is. If the leader is calm, they are brash. If the leader is a brash meathead, they tend to be smart and have restraint. They're the first person to butt heads with the ideology of the leader, but are also the most trusted person commonly on the team. Since the hero/leader tends to be the heart of a team, the lancer is more cold and calculated. Again they're the counter point. But even still they'd sacrifice and do everything to help their team progress if the time comes. That is why I bring up Lancer a lot. Shadow is the perfect counter point to a leader, rather than being one himself.

That doesn't apply to sonic , so that's a meaningless comparison to make. This is ontop of, anyone can be the leader in any form of different fiction they want with different qualities. And that's also ontop of, shadow is very much the heart of that team, considering without him omega and rouge quite literally would never hang out. He's the reason the team exists

 

Just now, dbzfan7 said:

He doesn't do anything I say. Like ever. I can only say our ideology on leadership is different as to why there's a difference of opinion here.

 

I guess

[StaticMania]

For the Sonic series as a whole.

The term Lancer would apply to Shadow, I guess.

But for Team Dark it doesn't really apply as much.

[dbzfan7]

9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

That doesn't apply to sonic , so that's a meaningless comparison to make. This is ontop of, anyone can be the leader in any form of different fiction they want with different qualities. And that's also ontop of, shadow is very much the heart of that team, considering without him omega and rouge quite literally would never hang out. He's the reason the team exists

 

I guess

WHAT? Rouge is the reason the team even exists. If not for her, Omega and Shadow would have killed each other or one of them would fall. She's the entire reason they form a team. She's the mediator. She's what brought them together. Shadow is not at all the heart and soul in Heroes.

It does. Trying to pass it off as meaningless is a shallow attempt to try and push aside an argument that you do not wish to counter. It's like saying the hero's journey story doesn't apply to Sonic, when Sonic follows those steps quite a lot.

Anyone can be called a leader, you're right about that, but that doesn't make them fitting or appropriate for said role. Knuckles is the Leader of the Resistance. Yet do we think he was a good or even proper leader? I'm sure if you asked, a lot of people would say absolutely not. Hell Amy was the one feeling more like a leader than Knuckles. Shadow is the leader according to the comics and possibly later game entries. Doesn't stop him from being a shite one, but a leader in that regard nonetheless.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, dbzfan7 said:

WHAT? Rouge is the reason the team even exists. If not for her, Omega and Shadow would have killed each other or one of them would fall. She's the entire reason they form a team. She's the mediator. She's what brought them together. Shadow is not at all the heart and soul in Heroes.

No shadow is.

If Shadow left, do you honestly think Rouge and Omega would hang out and be on a team? No. If Omega left, Rouge and shadow would be fine, if rouge left omega and shadow would be fine, maybe some bruises and dents but fine. Shadow is the reason that omega exists in the first place , and the whole reason rouge found omega is because of shadow. Shadow by virtue of literally existing is why that team literally exists in universe and IRL. Yeah rouge stopped them from fighting, and that's good she's a cool head. But if shadow would have said " Seeya loosers you both smell " and never had any desire to team up with any of them, they wouldn't have stayed to gether. Shadow is litterally the connective tissue on that team

Rouge admits basically this in sonic 06, she's says to shadow I believe something to the effect of " I'll follow you anywhere"  Not you both, or not we are a team we stick together. she's there for shadow. She cares about omega , but yeah

 

Quote

It does. Trying to pass it off as meaningless is a shallow attempt to try and push aside an argument that you do not wish to counter. It's like saying the hero's journey story doesn't apply to Sonic, when Sonic follows those steps quite a lot.

The heroes journey is a universal concept that influences for all stories ever , even holy texts that people based their lives on. The " Lancer " concept doesn't make sense because this isn't some common thing where i go " Oh I know what you are talking about"

You know why you confused me when you first said it, because I play a video game where a " lancer " is the leader and the protagonist, I play MULTIPLE video games and have a bunch of media where the " Lancer " is the main character. You know why? Because the lancer isn't universally known concept that so known through out fiction that evoking its name makes people instantaneously familiar with your argument. The leader of the team is whoever the people writing the story feel like should be writing that tail. Heck, one of my favorite series avatar went from a level headed dude who doesn't like fighting to a girl who is the " lancer " and she was the leader. The leader is who ever the desire to be the leader and works when done well around what is worth telling.

So yes , this is me pushing aside an argument that I don't want to counter, because its some shit you value in your head. And that's fine, but in regards to other media, and to other people it holds no standard to how things should be done and holds no barring on how people should think about their media, and when brought up in an argument it can be ignored because the context doesn't apply

Quote

Anyone can be called a leader, you're right about that, but that doesn't make them fitting or appropriate for said role. Knuckles is the Leader of the Resistance. Yet do we think he was a good or even proper leader? I'm sure if you asked, a lot of people would say absolutely not. Hell Amy was the one feeling more like a leader than Knuckles. Shadow is the leader according to the comics and possibly later game entries. Doesn't stop him from being a shite one, but a leader in that regard nonetheless.

I think he's a fine one.

But I also think team dark shouldn't exist at all. Like I think that team dark is a bad idea, shadow and rouge should be friends who occasionally hang out and not every sonic thing needs to be split up in team format. I don't really have skin in this game